Skills: proc or no proc?

[SageHarpuiaJDJ]

In other words, should proc skills continue to be used in Fire Emblem? It's kinda common knowledge to the Fire Emblem fan that Skills have always been a thing, and have been getting more complex as the games get newer. Proc skills are a common skill that's been around for some time, but should they be removed to make FE more of the strategy game that it is?

There's some stuff that I was gonna put in the OP, but I think that this length is sufficient to actually start a discussion and debate.

For me, I think that having proc skills are fine, but FE would be better without them. Mainly because they add more chance besides the hit/dodge rates alone, and I think that FE is good on that department. I do like that they give Skill more use, however.

[MCProductions]

Up until Fates, I wanted Proc Skills abolished, but Fates imo made them acceptable barring making Rescue a skill. As of now, I'm okay with them so long as the majority of skills are not proc based and those that are aren't necessarily just a second way to crit.

[The Draco Knight]

I'm not a fan of the proc skills either: they are just way too unreliable in the player's hands and in the enemy's hands they are just another futile risk you have to take during a fight.

[Magical Glace]

Maybe have something like what Fates did with Dual Guard instead?

Dunno where they'd put it on a UI though.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

It's kinda common knowledge to the Fire Emblem fan that Skills have always been a thing,

I just want to be the salty guy to point out, that in 8/14 games there aren't skills at all - and some of us liked it that way!

So no, they have not always been a thing.

I guess my overall answer is, yeah, remove 'em. Remove all of them

[Punished Dayni]

Well, I'm a bit split.

On the one hand, they no doubt have the issue of being another factor that could mess with a strategy, either for relying on them or for accounting for enemy use. Though crits also share this proccing issue (as does hit less than 100), though they're at least more predictable in damage.

Though on the other hand there's something of a rush to seeing it in action, and the fact that things like say summoning is more controllable.

I just want to be the salty guy to point out, that in 8/14 games there aren't skills at all - and some of us liked it that way!

So no, they have not always been a thing.

I guess my overall answer is, yeah, remove 'em. Remove all of them

Also, you're wrong on this. Tried to count it, and it's more like 8 games have skills in some form (7's a bit of a split case in only having silencer, but 8 has several and the Judgral and Tellius titles as well as Awakening and Fates have them too. And if you count stuff like + crit, 6 could be argued (I don't think I will, as it's not explicitly a skill in 6).

I understand the sentiment though, and honestly if there was a game that gave the choice to have them on or off I'd be very cool with that. And while I don't see it happening, no skills in a future game wouldn't drive me mad.

[ChibiToastExplosion]

Also, you're wrong on this. Tried to count it, and it's more like 8 games have skills in some form (7's a bit of a split case in only having silencer, but 8 has several and the Judgral and Tellius titles as well as Awakening and Fates have them too. And if you count stuff like + crit, 6 could be argued (I don't think I will, as it's not explicitly a skill in 6).

I understand the sentiment though, and honestly if there was a game that gave the choice to have them on or off I'd be very cool with that. And while I don't see it happening, no skills in a future game wouldn't drive me mad.

1, 2, 3, 6, 7, 8, 11, 12. You're right in that I wasn't counting silencer or crit bonuses - those are great ways to differentiate classes, but aren't a skill in and of themselves.

Not gonna not play a game with skills, obviously, but they should either be character or class specific - no everybody gets lethality garbage.

Edited October 28, 2016 by ChibiToastExplosion

[Troykv]

Proc skills: FE 4, 5, 8, 9, 10, 13, 14

No proc: FE 1, 2, 3, 6, 11, 12

One only exception: FE 7

[shadowofchaos]

Maybe have something like what Fates did with Dual Guard instead?

Dunno where they'd put it on a UI though.

Anyone familiar with FE7x?

The only proc skill system that was garbage, IMHO, was FE10.

Part 4 enemies were pretty much Tier 3 classes, with Tier 2 names and no mastery skills because they were all Lethality variants.

Edited October 29, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Magical Glace]

Anyone familiar with FE7x?

The only proc skill system that was garbage, IMHO, was FE10.

Part 4 enemies were pretty much Tier 3 classes, with Tier 2 names and no mastery skills because they were all Lethality variants.

No, I haven't, does it use the "energy bar" for skills over randomization?

[shadowofchaos]

No, I haven't, does it use the "energy bar" for skills over randomization?

Yes, it does.

[SageHarpuiaJDJ]

I just want to be the salty guy to point out, that in 8/14 games there aren't skills at all - and some of us liked it that way!

So no, they have not always been a thing.

I guess my overall answer is, yeah, remove 'em. Remove all of them

I don't mean like they've always been a part of each game, lol. I meant that they've been around for sometime.

[Augestein]

I'd rather them not all be proc based but some of them existing are alright in my opinion. And I agree with Shadow that RD had the worst proc based system of them all. I also agree with the fact that FE7x DID have a better system with the skills. I'd honestly like to see that implemented. Or maybe I'll just make my own system for it when I have more time on my hands.

Honestly, I'm fine with them having map skills, passive skills, proc skills and active skills all around IMO. Fates seems to do this a lot better as there are far more with things like Lunge, Swap, Replicate, Rallies, skills like Indoor Fighter, Quiet Strength... I feel that Fates is a massive step in the right direction for skills.

[Light Strategist]

if there was a game that gave the choice to have them on or off I'd be very cool with that.

Honestly, gamers would probably be happier if topical features like the skills being discussed here or things like a Chao Garden in a Sonic game were reduced to purely optional features that had no impact on gameplay unless turned on.

Seriously you'd think that it'd be a little more prioritized.

[Nobody]

I hate proc skills. They're too unreliable and luck based. Thankfully the enemies don't usually have them, but i avoid using them on my units as well

[onvars]

I'm also not a huge fan of proc skills, as I prefer skills that can be relied on, so I was pretty happy in Fates where they seemed to be less common (although I might be wrong on that). That said, I can understand how some people appreciate them because of the character build opportunities. One final note is that I actually can appreciate the design of Vengence - sure, it's a proc skill, but it only works when a certain criteria has been met (low HP), and it's high proc rate means that it can be relied on in some circumstances, which is why I was somewhat disappointed when Fates overnerfed the skill.

[BrightBow]

I'm not a fan of the proc skills either: they are just way too unreliable in the player's hands and in the enemy's hands they are just another futile risk you have to take during a fight.

Pretty much this. You always have to expect the worst possible outcome (or at the very least you can't make your success depend on a 3-30% chance), so when you use them you have to assume that they don't trigger and therefore they have no impact on your strategical decisions. Not to mention that such skills could actually screw you over on enemy phase by allowing more enemies to attack you, which is a pain in the ass on top of being just plain silly. Skills that could only ever benefit the user like Sol would be fine though,

Proc skills have some use in the hands of enemies but since you always have to prepare for the worst, you have to assume that they are always going to trigger, so they might as well have a 100% proc chance.

Edited October 30, 2016 by BrightBow

[MCProductions]

Pretty much this. You always have to expect the worst possible outcome (or at the very least you can't make your success depend on a 3-30% chance), so when you use them you have to assume that they don't trigger and therefore they have no impact on your strategical decisions. Not to mention that such skills could actually screw you over on enemy phase by allowing more enemies to attack you, which is a pain in the ass on top of being just plain silly. Skills that could only ever benefit the user like Sol would be fine though,

Proc skills have some use in the hands of enemies but since you always have to prepare for the worst, you have to assume that they are always going to trigger, so they might as well have a 100% proc chance.

Bolded: Didn't Awakening Lunatic + do just that?

I again hold Fates has handled skills the best thus far, tho I've admittedly only played like the first map of FE7x, so it might do it better

[BrightBow]

Bolded: Didn't Awakening Lunatic + do just that?

It did. Of course Lunatic+ also distributes skills like this entirely at random, so the difficulty of it's maps fluctuates to an absurd degree. But that's a problem with the way Lunatic+ is designed, not with the skills themselves.

Edited October 30, 2016 by BrightBow

[Shadow Mir]

I'm also not a huge fan of proc skills, as I prefer skills that can be relied on, so I was pretty happy in Fates where they seemed to be less common (although I might be wrong on that). That said, I can understand how some people appreciate them because of the character build opportunities. One final note is that I actually can appreciate the design of Vengence - sure, it's a proc skill, but it only works when a certain criteria has been met (low HP), and it's high proc rate means that it can be relied on in some circumstances, which is why I was somewhat disappointed when Fates overnerfed the skill.

Personally, I'm not a fan of Vengeance, and think it's only good for the enemy - not saying the concept is bad, but a SRPG with permanent death and a skill that requires low HP to be effective don't mix IMHO.

That said, I really don't care about whether procs are present or not, but I kinda like having them.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Dark Holy Elf]

I'm not a fan of proc skills, since as mentioned you can't really rely on them. We already have a mechanic that covers that niche, it's called critical hits. I don't value such things very highly. That said, I don't think removing them would be a significant improvement (since I don't think their existence hurts the game), and some people like them, so hey whatever.

I actually liked how RD handled them better than most. Everyone gets them, they make Skill slightly less crappy as a stat (still crappy, but they're trying!), and it's a nice little psychological feeling of power for reaching tier 3, even though ultimately they don't impact gameplay that much. And they don't let you instagib the bosses since they get Nihil/Mantle. By contrast when I get Luna as my Level 5 skill in the 3DS games I feel like I've been cheated.

I also like them on bosses (certainly not randoms) since yeah having to plan around bosses using them (or crits) is one of the more fun things about FE boss fights IMO. So I guess that justifies they're continued existence somewhat.

[Quintessence]

I'm fine with them. Tbf, crits can fall under the same criteria people are using to whine about them. I think the best way IS handled skills were in RD where every 3rd Tier unit got its mastery.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Quintessence

[Florete]

I'm not a fan of proc based skills. I prefer knowing to a reasonable degree what will happen. I think some amount of chance is good in a strategy game, and basic hit and critical fulfill that already.

Honestly, gamers would probably be happier if topical features like the skills being discussed here or things like a Chao Garden in a Sonic game were reduced to purely optional features that had no impact on gameplay unless turned on.

Seriously you'd think that it'd be a little more prioritized.

Having a skill system like Awakening/Fates has and then balancing the game around either having full access or no access would be pretty crazy.

[Augestein]

I'm fine with them. Tbf, crits can fall under the same criteria people are using to whine about them. I think the best way IS handled skills were in RD where every 3rd Tier unit got its mastery.

It's not that people are whining about it as acknowledging that the skills were all ohkos essentially. On bosses this meant attacking with nihil equipped and for you it meant random damage spikes. That's not much of a skill system as the skills don't do anything interesting. That's what makes them so bad. You can't plan for them as the player, and when the enemy had them, the only planning you can really do is "attack with a unit that can't have skills activate on them."

Edited October 31, 2016 by Augestein

[shadowofchaos]

I'm fine with them. Tbf, crits can fall under the same criteria people are using to whine about them. I think the best way IS handled skills were in RD where every 3rd Tier unit got its mastery.

Those mastery skills were also lethality under a different name.

A unit performing 7 dmg against a part 4 general suddenly can kill depending on the inflated stats. It's not the fact that you'd be attacking with a different unit if you know how to play... it's the fact that the damage fluctuation from a single skill activation is the highest in the series. The comparable damage would be a skill activation combined with a critical in FE9, FE13, and FE14.

The fact that your enemies were tier 3 in all but in name and mastery skill in part 4 shows how bad RD's system is.

You might have that feeling of power, but when boss fights are pretty much Nihil vs. Nihil to prevent you from dying to their broken Mastery skills... it is not an example of the best skill system implementation in FE.

For goodness sake... if you removed Mantle skills, a forged steel sword Meg can take out a full HP Dheg with a single Luna.

Edited October 31, 2016 by shadowofchaos