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Skills: proc or no proc?

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I join the FE10 has the worst proc skills train, because as already mentioned, there is no nuance to the mastery skills when the fact that they're lethality copypaste prevents the special effects from kicking in at all.

I don't mind the other proc skill implementations, but I'd like to see them be command skills with a turn-based cooldown (e.g. 7 turns for Astra, 5 for Dragon Fang, 3 for Luna, etc.), iirc something like that was present in Berwick Saga. I also want them to do away with chance-based PavGis/Miracle and just make them guaranteed damage reduction (with the amount being based on Skl for PavGis and Miracle halving damage on all lethal blows).

Edited by Gradivus.

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I don't see why people are complaining about the 'uncertainty' of proc skills when several aspects of gameplay are decided by RNG. Hit, Avoid, Critical hit, even your level ups. Why are proc skills suddenly bad?

I don't mind the other proc skill implementations, but I'd like to see them be command skills with a turn-based cooldown (e.g. 7 turns for Astra, 5 for Dragon Fang, 3 for Luna, etc.), iirc something like that was present in Berwick Saga. I also want them to do away with chance-based PavGis/Miracle and just make them guaranteed damage reduction (with the amount being based on Skl for PavGis and Miracle halving damage on all lethal blows).

There is an interesting idea. I like the current function of proc skills but I'd be willing to try this out.

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It's not that people are whining about it as acknowledging that the skills were all ohkos essentially. On bosses this meant attacking with nihil equipped and for you it meant random damage spikes. That's not much of a skill system as the skills don't do anything interesting. That's what makes them so bad. You can't plan for them as the player, and when the enemy had them, the only planning you can really do is "attack with a unit that can't have skills activate on them."

Those mastery skills were also lethality under a different name.

A unit performing 7 dmg against a part 4 general suddenly can kill depending on the inflated stats. It's not the fact that you'd be attacking with a different unit if you know how to play... it's the fact that the damage fluctuation from a single skill activation is the highest in the series. The comparable damage would be a skill activation combined with a critical in FE9, FE13, and FE14.

The fact that your enemies were tier 3 in all but in name and mastery skill in part 4 shows how bad RD's system is.

You might have that feeling of power, but when boss fights are pretty much Nihil vs. Nihil to prevent you from dying to their broken Mastery skills... it is not an example of the best skill system implementation in FE.

For goodness sake... if you removed Mantle skills, a forged steel sword Meg can take out a full HP Dheg with a single Luna.

I said they handled skills the best way, including gaining skills automatically and assigning/removing skills, not that mastery skills were the best thing ever.

Besides, I do wonder why people look down on RD masteries but don't do the same on Awakening/Fates bombastic combos? It's like people are deceived by them, but basically a bunch of them sum up what Mastery does, making them the same Lethality variant as FE10. Give a Faire skill, Trample or whatever dmg plus skill, a regular proc skill like Astra (or Luna, Drafon Fang, etc.) and sum it a crt then your unit is slamming a whomping 130+ or 200+ damage, even on Final bosses like Garon, Takumi, and Grima. So what's the difference?

I don't see why people are complaining about the 'uncertainty' of proc skills when several aspects of gameplay are decided by RNG. Hit, Avoid, Critical hit, even your level ups. Why are proc skills suddenly bad

This was essentially what my point is. Victories on FE are determined by RNG through all the succession of events that need to occur, so proc skills are just an minimum extra to that formula. Well, one can 100% the first chapters of an FE game with Marcus, Seth or Titania, but eventually the player will face sub 100% numbers, but that's beside the point.

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Besides, I do wonder why people look down on RD masteries but don't do the same on Awakening/Fates bombastic combos? It's like people are deceived by them, but basically a bunch of them sum up what Mastery does, making them the same Lethality variant as FE10. Give a Faire skill, Trample or whatever dmg plus skill, a regular proc skill like Astra (or Luna, Drafon Fang, etc.) and sum it a crt then your unit is slamming a whomping 130+ or 200+ damage, even on Final bosses like Garon, Takumi, and Grima. So what's the difference?

The difference is you have to make a combo of different unit and skills together and the RNG has to line up with a crit. And most "broken" strats don't rely on that crit.

The difference is setup and strategy instead of having every unit have a "proc to win" button.

How are 4x Str skills with values in the 30's and up even comparable to the most broken skill of "add half of your total might"?

All the rally skills require you to rely on different units. An enemy can one shot you if they proc a skill and crit. But you also have ways to reduce the damage and survive or have skills to counter them. Or dual guard.

You can't do the same with FE10 mastery skills. Killing Grima off a "not thought of" one hit kill isn't possible.

If you took off Ashera's mantle, you can accidentally kill her off a Mastery Skill proc from any of your units.

Edited by shadowofchaos

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The difference is you have to make a combo of different unit and skills together and the RNG has to line up with a crit. And most "broken" strats don't rely on that crit.

The difference is setup and strategy instead of having every unit have a "proc to win" button.

How are 4x Str skills with values in the 30's and up even comparable to the most broken skill of "add half of your total might"?

All the rally skills require you to rely on different units. An enemy can one shot you if they proc a skill and crit. But you also have ways to reduce the damage and survive or have skills to counter them. Or dual guard.

You can't do the same with FE10 mastery skills. Killing Grima off a "not thought of" one hit kill isn't possible.

If you took off Ashera's mantle, you can accidentally kill her off a Mastery Skill proc from any of your units.

The idea of the crit isn't strictly the example, a proc skill and high might can make you one shot enemies and deal dmg among the 100s.

The same 'proc to win' button is among the setup you need to get to "Mastery" level of one shots, orkos or stomp the enemy without major issue.

On paper, one skill to another is not comparable, but a high damage setup of skills is basically the norm on both 3DS games, so basically count all that setup as 1 Mastery. They're the same, essentially. 3DS just adds cosmetic elements to imitate the effect of Mastery with Rally Skills, extra units, positioning, turns, etc., but they get to the same level. So why judge one and not the other? Because the latter (supposedly) adds more strategic elements? Extra strategic elements can be buffs and debuff from knives, but the above example is just a pile of extra steps to achieve the same goal a Mastery does in one step.

Regarding modern final bosses, Dragonskin is just a Nihil variant, but it's the same exact formula. Ashera without Mantle can be rekt with Ike's Aether, Takumi/Garon/Grima can be rekt without Dragonskin (in fact, they're easier to deal with than Ashera herself). I mean, any judgement about Masterys applies in equal way to the flamboyant compositions one triggers in 3DS games.

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There are many situations in the 3DS games where a proc doesn't equal an instant kill. The same can't be said about FE10.

Damage stacking is kind of an odd thing that the 3DS games don't compensate for enough. A capacity system would fix that by limiting the number of level 15 skills on one unit more. That in itself is not a problem coming from the 3DS games' approach to proc skills (although I do like the idea of attaching some skills to promoted classes, akin to a mastery system, the skills on their own are just done very poorly in FE10).

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I think the question of "proc or no proc" is sort of a secondary concern to "is the skill impressive/interesting"? Like, for all the ranting and raving about skill design in CQ, people kind of overlook how many skills in that game are really just kind of boring when you compare them to the effects of skills in the Jugdral or Tellius series. Proc skills just have a tendancy to be less impressive/interesting because of their overlap with criticals (and a lot of them made more sense in FE4 where crits didn't exist unless you had the skill/special weapon/etc), but what I would prefer to see is skills that have the same kind of oomph factor as the old Miracle, Resolve, Wrath, Parity/Nihil, Charge, variations of paralyze/sleep skills, Disarm, etc. Some of these were proc based but they don't neccessarily have to be.

Cutting down on the amount of skills one can have via capacity would be a good way to start approaching these kinds of things because as it stands, all skills being equally weighted is absurd when one considers minor stat increases cost the same as dominating ones like Galeforce or Breaker skills.

Edited by Irysa

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There are many situations in the 3DS games where a proc doesn't equal an instant kill. The same can't be said about FE10.

Damage stacking is kind of an odd thing that the 3DS games don't compensate for enough. A capacity system would fix that by limiting the number of level 15 skills on one unit more. That in itself is not a problem coming from the 3DS games' approach to proc skills (although I do like the idea of attaching some skills to promoted classes, akin to a mastery system, the skills on their own are just done very poorly in FE10).

Agreed. But I don't know if we need to balance, nerf or eleminate proc skills. They're like part of the nature of the series. Unless they implement bars like in Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE, and give the characters a family of skills (command, passive, trigger, etc.), which I am fine with. Thing is, that system adjusts better to RPGs with a small cast rather than the medium/large casts in FE.

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On paper, one skill to another is not comparable, but a high damage setup of skills is basically the norm on both 3DS games, so basically count all that setup as 1 Mastery. They're the same, essentially. 3DS just adds cosmetic elements to imitate the effect of Mastery with Rally Skills, extra units, positioning, turns, etc., but they get to the same level. So why judge one and not the other? Because the latter (supposedly) adds more strategic elements? Extra strategic elements can be buffs and debuff from knives, but the above example is just a pile of extra steps to achieve the same goal a Mastery does in one step.

Exactly. It does it in one step. One unit.

One unit can kill a god without help from any others.

You have a limited resource: Unit movement in a single turn. When one unit can kill a god with the help of the entire battalion using up their turn, it balances out.

When a single unit can kill a god by moving it up to it and pressing A... it means you can kill as many gods in the same turn with your other units. It is not the same access to power.

It devalues the point of the skill system: Mechanics that add variety to gameplay and add strategic depth. FE10's Mastery skill do the exact same thing with different animations: Ramp up damage up to instant KO upon activation.

Skills in Fates have enough variety in passive, variety, and power checks in their skills.

No single unit will be able to OHKO kill Hydra/Anankos with a Steel Sword without stat modification or boosting from other units even without Dragonskin.

Edited by shadowofchaos

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Tier 3 Mastery Skill looks like they were designed to you feel powerful.

Anyway, I would likely nerf them (except Flare and Corona... because the damage isn't completely insane anyway... Unless you want to make them a One-Hit 3DS!Aether)...

Anything that makes STR x 3 (or 5 in Eclipse's case), and make it something like... I don't know.. 1.5x Str?

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Myself, I think it depends. Triggers aren't reliable, but some units benefit more from them due to high Skill or things like Quixotic. But Sorcerers, for instance, benefit more from static Skills in my opinion, due to having high damage potential already and low Skill.

For instance, Sniper Takumi has high Skill, so putting, say, Astra or Rend Heaven on him can yield some good results relatively often. But on Sorcerer Ophelia, something like Life or Death would be better, because that's an extra 10 Damage added to what's likely an already large amount, resulting in a much better chance of an OHKO. As well, she would have a low chance of triggering anything that's not a direct Skill%, so things like Astra or Lethality are better off benched for reliable Skills.

Triggers are very interesting, but I'm really more one to side with interesting, non-luck-based types of games, so I really would prefer less trigger skills that also don't completely eat the meta.

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I like what they add to the game, and agree that procs are healthy for stat balance because it makes the skill stat a bit more useful. The one thing I would like to see is more proc abilities running off the luck stat. And maybe more variance in what they do, as most procs are just some variation of "do extra damage." aegis and pavise show there are other directions you can go with it.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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I'm not a big fan of skills, and I ignored them for most of FE9 and FE10 until I actually had to use them, specially in the fight against the Black Knight in both games. There were situations in which they were very useful, like being essentially overpowered critical hits for the 3rd-tier units in FE10, but they represented another level of inventory management I was not interested in. I appreciated though the ability to reassign them in order to improve my chances of survival (I'm thinking about Nihil), but aside of a Paragon here and a Daunt there I tried not to rely too much on them.

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Myself, I think it depends. Triggers aren't reliable, but some units benefit more from them due to high Skill or things like Quixotic. But Sorcerers, for instance, benefit more from static Skills in my opinion, due to having high damage potential already and low Skill.

For instance, Sniper Takumi has high Skill, so putting, say, Astra or Rend Heaven on him can yield some good results relatively often. But on Sorcerer Ophelia, something like Life or Death would be better, because that's an extra 10 Damage added to what's likely an already large amount, resulting in a much better chance of an OHKO. As well, she would have a low chance of triggering anything that's not a direct Skill%, so things like Astra or Lethality are better off benched for reliable Skills.

Triggers are very interesting, but I'm really more one to side with interesting, non-luck-based types of games, so I really would prefer less trigger skills that also don't completely eat the meta.

Quixotic and Life and Death are both bad examples, since both of them are bad skills, for one, and second, they're level 15 skills, and thus come too late to have much impact.

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I think the approach with Skills I'd like to see is more along the lines of the Tellius games-- where a character gets one skill-- and then that's it. I know that's not how it works in Tellius per se, there are other skills that can be given etc, but keeping each character with one specific skill has the potential to be much more interesting without being too skill-grind intensive, IMO.

In which case, proc skills being given out would depend on the unit, and whether or not a proc would succeed in balancing the character. For instance, on a character with a fairly weak build and low growths, a strong proc that other units can't get might increase their viability.

For the most part, the strength of skills that I want to see are along the lines of Wrath in RD/Awakening; increased crit under 50% HP is fairly balanced in terms of risk-reward, and definitely not gamebreaking or anything. Higher-efficacy personal skills, essentially, is what I want to see (without any presence from other class-centric skills).

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Quixotic and Life and Death are both bad examples, since both of them are bad skills, for one, and second, they're level 15 skills, and thus come too late to have much impact.

Er, I really don't know what game you've been playing, but they're actually really nice. Life and Death oftentimes puts a high-damage unit over the top to one-shot most things, while Quixotic gives, say, Lethality a much better chance of activation, meaning more one-shots. The basic thing is that whether triggered skills are good or not depends on the unit, and especially their Skill stat. But, overall, I'm more for non-meta-eating skills.

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Er, I really don't know what game you've been playing, but they're actually really nice. Life and Death oftentimes puts a high-damage unit over the top to one-shot most things, while Quixotic gives, say, Lethality a much better chance of activation, meaning more one-shots. The basic thing is that whether triggered skills are good or not depends on the unit, and especially their Skill stat. But, overall, I'm more for non-meta-eating skills.

I could say the same of you - the enemy benefits much more from both of those skills than the player does.

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I could say the same of you - the enemy benefits much more from both of those skills than the player does.

I mean, if you've got them on most of your units, put those units on your front line to take a beating, and those units aren't already good enough to evade or negate whatever's thrown at them (*cough* Swordmaster/General), then sure, you'd be right.

As it is, you'd have to be an idiot to use a Sorcerer or the like to tank anyway, and most enemies don't benefit at all from the +trigger rate bonus from Quixotic, since few have triggered skills. (Hit bonus notwithstanding, and even that is negligible since you should assume you're getting hit anyway; maybe against a Berserker there's a problem, but that's really specific). And, in Fates at any rate, putting Life and Death on a good frontliner would barely count against them since their Def/Evade is high enough to not really care. But, as I've alluded to, it's really better on high damage units anyway. And if we're talking PvP, then those skills are extremely valuable because of the its meta. And regardless of PvE or PvP, there's a good reason the majority of skill shop castles give them out regularly.

So, yes, unless you're putting them on units that clearly wouldn't do well with them and/or putting the units that do in unnecessary danger, they're pretty good skills. And if you do do either of those things, then that's more your own fault than the game's. I'm not saying that every unit needs them, and I do agree it'd be a bad strategy, but if used properly they are quite powerful.

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I mean, if you've got them on most of your units, put those units on your front line to take a beating, and those units aren't already good enough to evade or negate whatever's thrown at them (*cough* Swordmaster/General), then sure, you'd be right.

As it is, you'd have to be an idiot to use a Sorcerer or the like to tank anyway, and most enemies don't benefit at all from the +trigger rate bonus from Quixotic, since few have triggered skills. (Hit bonus notwithstanding, and even that is negligible since you should assume you're getting hit anyway; maybe against a Berserker there's a problem, but that's really specific). And, in Fates at any rate, putting Life and Death on a good frontliner would barely count against them since their Def/Evade is high enough to not really care. But, as I've alluded to, it's really better on high damage units anyway. And if we're talking PvP, then those skills are extremely valuable because of the its meta. And regardless of PvE or PvP, there's a good reason the majority of skill shop castles give them out regularly.

So, yes, unless you're putting them on units that clearly wouldn't do well with them and/or putting the units that do in unnecessary danger, they're pretty good skills. And if you do do either of those things, then that's more your own fault than the game's. I'm not saying that every unit needs them, and I do agree it'd be a bad strategy, but if used properly they are quite powerful.

I find both of them underwhelming nonetheless because they're level 15 skills, and in Quixotic's case, the player obviously gets the short straw (I highly doubt that +15 to skill activation rate makes up for giving the enemy an accuracy boost almost on par with Certain Blow), and even a "good frontliner" would likely care about the extra damage they'd be taking courtesy of Life and Death (adding 10 damage would make blows that would be shrugged off otherwise much more worrisome, evade isn't reliable, and for all that bad, it likely wouldn't be enough to push my units into one-shot territory).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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I find both of them disappointing nonetheless because they're level 15 skills, and in Quixotic's case, the player obviously gets the short straw (I highly doubt that +15 to skill activation rate makes up for giving the enemy an accuracy boost almost on par with Certain Blow), and even a "good frontliner" would likely care about the extra damage they'd be taking courtesy of Life and Death (adding 10 damage would make blows that would be shrugged off otherwise much more worrisome, evade isn't reliable, and for all that bad, it likely wouldn't be enough to push my units into one-shot territory).

Yeah, it is disappointing they're level 15 skills.

But, Quixotic gives both sides +30 Hit/+15 Act. Rate, and that +15% boost means that things like Lethality automatically gain a 15% chance to activate. If you've got it on your avatar, you can also get Hoshidan Unity, giving it an innate 25% chance to activate. And those are in addition to whatever chance it had before. And as I said, you should already assume the enemy's going to hit you; if you're up against enemies that have a lot of triggered skills, then I can see taking off Quixotic, but except for Berserkers, an enemy missing is just you getting lucky, not a gameplay feature.

On a high-Skill unit (assuming a capped stat at 35, which is on the low end of it), Lethality triggers at a 24% rate with Quixotic, and Astra at 32%. And, with Hoshidan Unity, add another 10%. Depending on the unit, that's around a 1-in-5-ish chance or more for a guaranteed kill, without adding Skill bonuses from pair-ups, rallies, and personal skills. And if we're talking something like Rend Heaven, you get a whopping 67% trigger rate. Rend Heaven isn't the absolute best, but it can definitely pick up a few kills. And then you have, say, Miracle and Votive Candle, which function off of skill trigger, and I believe have about the same rate as Lethality, but on lower-Skill units, making Quixotic even better for it.

So, wall of text aside: I'm willing to sacrifice something I wasn't counting on anyway to get much better capabilities.

And as for Life and Death, I've not had many situations (except in endgame Awakening shudder) where my frontliners take more than a few hits before I can heal them. And if you're that worried, don't put it on frontliners. As I've said, it's really a better skill for putting Sorcerers, Snipers, and other rear-line units over the top to pick up more kills; they aren't at great risk anyway, or shouldn't be, so who cares if they take more damage? With proper positioning, they shouldn't even be getting attacked. And if they are, that extra damage usually isn't enough to kill them unless they're getting hit multiple times, at least for me. Basically, if you screw up positioning, it benefits the enemy; if you actually keep your squishies un-squished, it's helpful to have.

And anyway, these were just some random examples to demonstrate a concept: depending on the unit, triggered skills might be worse than passive, or vice versa. On a high-Skill unit, triggereds are worth it, while on units like Sorcerers, raw bonuses are pretty key. And, overall, I'd love to see more skill diversity in passives, and a nerf to make triggers worth it, but an alternative to passives rather than better in many cases.

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Yeah, it is disappointing they're level 15 skills.

But, Quixotic gives both sides +30 Hit/+15 Act. Rate, and that +15% boost means that things like Lethality automatically gain a 15% chance to activate. If you've got it on your avatar, you can also get Hoshidan Unity, giving it an innate 25% chance to activate. And those are in addition to whatever chance it had before. And as I said, you should already assume the enemy's going to hit you; if you're up against enemies that have a lot of triggered skills, then I can see taking off Quixotic, but except for Berserkers, an enemy missing is just you getting lucky, not a gameplay feature.

On a high-Skill unit (assuming a capped stat at 35, which is on the low end of it), Lethality triggers at a 24% rate with Quixotic, and Astra at 32%. And, with Hoshidan Unity, add another 10%. Depending on the unit, that's around a 1-in-5-ish chance or more for a guaranteed kill, without adding Skill bonuses from pair-ups, rallies, and personal skills. And if we're talking something like Rend Heaven, you get a whopping 67% trigger rate. Rend Heaven isn't the absolute best, but it can definitely pick up a few kills. And then you have, say, Miracle and Votive Candle, which function off of skill trigger, and I believe have about the same rate as Lethality, but on lower-Skill units, making Quixotic even better for it.

So, wall of text aside: I'm willing to sacrifice something I wasn't counting on anyway to get much better capabilities.

And as for Life and Death, I've not had many situations (except in endgame Awakening shudder) where my frontliners take more than a few hits before I can heal them. And if you're that worried, don't put it on frontliners. As I've said, it's really a better skill for putting Sorcerers, Snipers, and other rear-line units over the top to pick up more kills; they aren't at great risk anyway, or shouldn't be, so who cares if they take more damage? With proper positioning, they shouldn't even be getting attacked. And if they are, that extra damage usually isn't enough to kill them unless they're getting hit multiple times, at least for me. Basically, if you screw up positioning, it benefits the enemy; if you actually keep your squishies un-squished, it's helpful to have.

And anyway, these were just some random examples to demonstrate a concept: depending on the unit, triggered skills might be worse than passive, or vice versa. On a high-Skill unit, triggereds are worth it, while on units like Sorcerers, raw bonuses are pretty key. And, overall, I'd love to see more skill diversity in passives, and a nerf to make triggers worth it, but an alternative to passives rather than better in many cases.

I actually meant that they're disappointing for level 15 skills - they're both double-edged swords, and I find that disqualifying. Sure, Quixotic might give that boost to both sides, but more often than not, my hit rate is high enough that the extra hit is mostly superfluous (which tends to NOT be the case for the enemy), and even with +15, skills are still unreliable. Also, 35 is the highest skill cap discounting outside factors. Oh, and Miracle activates based on the unit's luck stat. Life and Death... well, I'd rather stack skills and get teh same effect without the penalty.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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I actually meant that they're disappointing for level 15 skills - they're both double-edged swords, and I find that disqualifying. Sure, Quixotic might give that boost to both sides, but more often than not, my hit rate is high enough that the extra hit is mostly superfluous (which tends to NOT be the case for the enemy), and even with +15, skills are still unreliable. Also, 35 is the highest skill cap discounting outside factors. Oh, and Miracle activates based on the unit's luck stat. Life and Death... well, I'd rather stack skills and get teh same effect without the penalty.

Oh, dur, I forgot how Miracle worked :P

It's really about the current situation and the unit's setup overall, so therefore depends on the person. Life and Death/Quixotic work for me, so I use them; if that's different for you, w/e, whatever works. But I do have to point out that 35 is lower on the high-end spectrum, seeing as you can get several points higher if you do statues and/or have a child. (Which, if you care about the unit in question, you probably will.)

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Life-and-death and quixotic make units better on player-phase and worse on enemy phase; use them accordingly on units like sniper mozu or sorceress nyx, that put in all their work on player phase and should never ever ever be exposing themselves to taking hits. Note that the damage bonus from life-and-death stacks with QuickDraw, aggressor, and tomefaire/bowfaire etc. altogether; they can get a glass-cannon attacker up to an absurd +26 damage before you even get to stats and weapon might.

Edited by Shoblongoo

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Life-and-death and quixotic make units better on player-phase and worse on enemy phase; use them accordingly on units like sniper mozu or sorceress nyx, that put in all their work on player phase and should never ever ever be exposing themselves to taking hits. Note that the damage bonus from life-and-death stacks with QuickDraw, aggressor, and tomefaire/bowfaire etc. altogether; they can get a glass-cannon attacker up to an absurd +26 damage before you even get to stats and weapon might.

And therein lies the problem - player phase is generally less important than enemy phase, to say nothing of the part where level 15 skills ain't gonna see much playtime unless your name is Felicia, Gunter or Jakob.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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