Tellius Recollection (Vol 2) Translation / Discussion Thread

[Anacybele]

5 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

That would not be a small retcon though. Without dragons becoming infertile, the entire Akaneia saga would not have happened because it was the dragon's unavoidable fate to become extinct that laid the entire foundation for the conflict between humans and dragons in that setting. And the decay of Duma and Mila in Gaiden for that matter.

Even the new Echoes actually references this. Well, not the infertility part but the part that the dragon race is dying. This actually surprised me quite a bit considering that I already knew that the game was adding stuff to tie Gaiden to Awakening.

Okay, I suppose, but somehow Nowi and Tiki could have a child in Awakening, as unrealistic as it might seem. I always figured something else was causing those Archanea dragons to die out anyway.

We're getting off topic, btw so it's best that we don't drag this out much.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Anacybele

[Scary tiki goddess]

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Interesting material it has. I was astonished by the revelation of the implication of Kent-Fiora pre-marital sex in the Japanese version. The well-mannered highly rational duo does it? That seems totally out of character! Sain on the other hand is more likely to die a virgin I guess because he's too up front about his romantic passions, so every woman steels themselves against his pleas (unless he turns into a criminal- which I very doubt IS would ever imagine one of its playboy types doing). And here I though sex outside of marriage wasn't a thing among FE playables.

I'm still of the "we have zero absolute certainty" camp. But the Ike-Soren debate is entertaining.

IIRC FE7's English translation is a pretty faithful rendition of the Japanese; I remember reaching their supports as a child and the implications completely flying over my head until much later. :P

As for the entertaining Ike/Soren debate, let's try to take this one thing at a time.

5 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Sorry, but I've seen that article and I've never agreed with it because it basically says he's gay no question and there's nothing to indicate that. 

No it doesn't. Have you read it? If not, you're misrepresenting a dissenting opinion based on your assumptions, not facts.

5 hours ago, Anacybele said:

If anything, I would've guessed that he's asexual, but Priam is a thing, so it makes it quite possible that he did get with a woman.

This has always been a weird line of argument to me, because the 3 possibilities (1. Ike is asexual 2. Ike has gotten with a woman 3. Ike has gotten with a man) aren't mutually exclusive. I can talk about Priam more, though.

5 hours ago, Anacybele said:

And I think if IS really wanted Ike to be gay, they'd have made it much more obvious since Heather is a thing in Tellius. She's practically all but confirmed to be lesbian.

Just to get the record straight, I don't think a female character has to be a serial womanizer to be plausibly gay (or potentially attracted to other women) and I feel like the same could be said for a male character. 

1 hour ago, NinjaMonkey said:

The existence of Priam (who is Ike's descendant) means that Ike has to have a relationship with a woman at some point in his life. Which means both Ike X Soren and Ike X Ranulf aren't canon.

I feel like your argument was stronger before your edits (though Anri says hi), but if you're going off the assumption that 1. Awakening canon has bearing on Tellius canon 2. Priam's claim can be taken at face value and 3. There's no chance of Priam's situation bearing any similarity to Marth and Anri's, you still have to defend the claim that Ike procreating precludes the possibility that he, at some point in his life, entered into a romantic relationship with Ike or Ranulf (or any unnamed male suitor :P).

 

[Anacybele]

6 minutes ago, Scary tiki goddess said:

No it doesn't. Have you read it? If not, you're misrepresenting a dissenting opinion based on your assumptions, not facts.

Did YOU read it? The very beginning says the writer was always in the camp of "Ike likes dudes." I have skimmed through the rest of it though. Didn't read it completely because it's long as hell and I can't really be bothered when I know I won't agree with it as I said.

6 minutes ago, Scary tiki goddess said:

Just to get the record straight, I don't think a female character has to be a serial womanizer to be plausibly gay (or potentially attracted to other women) and I feel like the same could be said for a male character. 

No, but they could've made it more obvious that Ike was gay in other ways. He doesn't have to act like Heather. But Ike makes no implications of his sexuality whatsoever.

Also, of course Awakening canon has bearing on Tellius's. Chrom knows about Ike and Priam exists. Ike was implied to have found the Outrealm Gate into Awakening's world at some point too, I believe.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Anacybele

[Elincia]

9 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

The very beginning says the writer was always in the camp of "Ike likes dudes." I have skimmed through the rest of it though. Didn't read it completely because it's long as hell and I can't really be bothered when I know I won't agree with it as I said.

You cant really give any valid criticism of the article if you didnt bother to read it. If you had, you would have read that the author isnt agaisnt the possibility of Ike still getting with a women

[Anacybele]

1 minute ago, Elincia said:

You cant really give any valid criticism of the article if you didnt bother to read it. If you had, you would have read that the author isnt agaisnt the possibility of Ike still getting with a women

I just said I did read some of it though.

[wayward-emblem]

(And just when I thought the sexuality debate was going to be avoided...)

7 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Did YOU read it? The very beginning says the writer was always in the camp of "Ike likes dudes." I have skimmed through the rest of it though. Didn't read it completely because it's long as hell and I can't really be bothered when I know I won't agree with it as I said.

So you didn't read it - at least not properly. Also, even if you don't agree with something, that doesn't mean you shouldn't look into the other point of view.

Amielleon points out that Lethe and Ike have a somewhat romantic support - with her inviting him to come live with her in Gallia. As such, Ike was not exclusively gay. They support a bisexual or asexual reading of Ike - where he winds up with a man at the end. 

15 hours ago, Anacybele said:

I'm sick of people claiming they are when there's no real evidence at all to such a thing. Yes, Ike gave Soren a hug. So WHAT? Good friends hug each other all the time, doesn't always mean they're in love.

Right, this is an argument I see freaking everywhere and it annoys me to no end.

I don't think it's so much the hug itself which makes people view them romantically. It's the placement of the entire base scene and how it's presented. It happens right before the final boss - a very significant space - and is the only base conversation of the stage. Micaiah doesn't get one with her opt-out love interest Sothe nor do any of the 'canon' pairings and that is quite important to bare in mind.

Then, instead of talking to, say, the Greil Mercenaries or his sister (both of which would have worked as a final base conversation) Ike talks to Soren - a character who loses quite a lot of plot relevance by the time the army reaches the tower. This, thus, makes Soren seem a lot more significant to Ike than any other cast member.

On another note, imagine if that final conversation had been with Ike and Elincia and he'd hugged her at the end. Reads quite differently, right? 

[maybe]

30 minutes ago, BrightBow said:

Hey, if Nowi and Nah can exist despite Akanean dragons being infertile, then Priam can exist despite Ike being gay and never having been intimate with a woman.

Seriously, Awakening doesn't even care about it's own setting. So the last thing one should do is to put any stakes in it's opinion on entirely different settings that it has no business referencing in the first place. Nevermind that even in the context of Awakening, Priam's status as canon is dubious at best, considering he is recruited in the same Spotpass maps that also revive Emmeryn among other things.

Awakening being full of shit aside, Priam is only confirmed to be Ike's descendant. That does not have to mean that he is Priam's granddaddy. And even if Ike was, that would not prove that he wasn't gay or that he didn't get together with Soren or Ranulf. As you said, that means that Ike had a relationship with a woman at some point in his life. No more no less. Or maybe something entirely different happened. Maybe Priam was created by a mad alchemist using Ike's blood. The possibilities are endless.

while I agree with the fact that Priam doesn't necessarily have to be directly descended from Ike, I do think more with this mindset

priam just exists to be a fanservice dude, and I really don't think there was any thought put in it beyond that

they even mention ashera before you recruit him, and it really wouldn't make sense for ashera to have existed in this world

awakening just sort of tried to tie together a bunch of games in a way that didn't make sense, and I really don't think they made it believable that every fire emblem game could've happened in the same world

25 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

What? I don't remember anyone stating this. And isn't Tiki Naga's daughter? Archanean dragons are perfectly capable of reproducing.

And even if you were correct, there's a thing called retconning. Developers sometimes do that when updating the setting and characters of a story, you know. It means that they make little changes here and there so it makes more sense with what they have in mind. Pokemon originally could not breed, and then they were made able to breed!

the thing about retconning is that it doesn't stop the original from having happened

like, it's perfectly possible that they added Priam fully with the intention of him being ike's great grandson or whatever 

but at the same time, that doesn't necessarily mean that ike wasn't gay in FE9/10, since it's possible that the writers did intend for him to be written that way

priam was probably just added because they wanted a fanservice character for people who like ike 

i'm not trying to argue whether or not ike is gay or anything like that, but I don't really think priam should be relevant to that discussion

[Anacybele]

8 minutes ago, emblem-oracle said:

Right, this is an argument I see freaking everywhere and it annoys me to no end.

I don't think it's so much the hug itself which makes people view them romantically. It's the placement of the entire base scene and how it's presented. It happens right before the final boss - a very significant space - and is the only base conversation of the stage. Micaiah doesn't get one with her opt-out love interest Sothe nor do any of the 'canon' pairings and that is quite important to bare in mind.

Then, instead of talking to, say, the Greil Mercenaries or his sister (both of which would have worked as a final base conversation) Ike talks to Soren - a character who loses quite a lot of plot relevance by the time the army reaches the tower. This, thus, makes Soren seem a lot more significant to Ike than any other cast member.

On another note, imagine if that final conversation had been with Ike and Elincia and he'd hugged her at the end. Reads quite differently, right? 

And it annoys me to no end when people use the hug as an argument for Ike and Soren because the argument is everywhere.

It still doesn't necessarily mean romance. Just that they're as close as friends could be without it. In fact, that scene inspired me to write something just as emotional between a pair of male best friends in my own fic when it nears its end. But both of these characters get with women! (even though one of them later ends the relationship for unrelated reasons)

If it was a hug between Ike and Elincia, it alone wouldn't necessarily mean they're in love either. But in their case, they also had the final cutscene of PoR where they were holding hands and walking onto the balcony together. Tie that in with a hug, and you just might get some actual romantic implications there. But Ike was never seen holding hands with Soren.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Anacybele

[Scary tiki goddess]

27 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Did YOU read it? The very beginning says the writer was always in the camp of "Ike likes dudes." I have skimmed through the rest of it though. Didn't read it completely because it's long as hell and I can't really be bothered when I know I won't agree with it as I said.

No, but they could've made it more obvious that Ike was gay in other ways. He doesn't have to act like Heather. But Ike makes no implications of his sexuality whatsoever.

Also, of course Awakening canon has bearing on Tellius's. Chrom knows about Ike and Priam exists. Ike was implied to have found the Outrealm Gate into Awakening's world at some point too, I believe.

I don't really want to lecture you, but it's actually a good thing to expose yourself to different opinions to strengthen your own position. You can't really argue against the opposing position if you don't fully understand it.

Out of curiosity, seeing as you're a writer, how would you write an obviously gay character?  

[Anacybele]

6 minutes ago, Scary tiki goddess said:

 Out of curiosity, seeing as you're a writer, how would you write an obviously gay character?  

The same way I would write a straight character, just with an interest in the same gender rather than the opposite. Notice how many characters in the series only have romantic endings with the opposite gender but aren't skirt chasers like Sain and Virion? They get actual romantic endings to reveal it. I would give a gay/lesbian character only gay/lesbian possible romances. And in a support or two, make them express a little more interest in the same gender than the opposite one. Or even have them outright tell another character that they're gay/lesbian. No bullshit like Soleil obviously being lesbian but only able to marry guys.

Love is love, so writing a gay/lesbian character should be no different from writing a straight one.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Anacybele

[DarkLordIvy]

4 hours ago, NinjaMonkey said:

The existence of Priam (who is Ike's descendant) means that Ike has to have a relationship with a woman at some point in his life. Which means both Ike X Soren and Ike X Ranulf aren't cano

 

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

I agree, because even though it's technically possible that Priam is from Mist's line instead, I doubt IS would go that route the same way they did with Marth and Anri. Priam screams Ike all over, both aesthetically and in some of his personality traits, so suddenly saying he's from Mist and not directly Ike feels pretty trollish. Plus, Priam being from Mist's line would 100% canonify her pairing with Boyd, and that's not fair to the other RD pairings that are completely optional (Mist's default ending says she remains single).

Yo I'd just like to chime into this bit of the argument because it has never sat right with me as a good argument for why Ike must have gotten with a woman with: genetics are weird, it is absolutely possible that Mist could have a kid that is pretty much the spitting image of her brother, and for that kid to continue generating more Ike-alikes down the generations to Priam. I have a cousin who looks and acts waaaay more like one of our aunts than he does ether of his parents, it's actually a little creepy how similar they are.

Pfft can we not just say "Ike is probably bi or something" and end the whole argument? 

[Anacybele]

8 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

Yo I'd just like to chime into this bit of the argument because it has never sat right with me as a good argument for why Ike must have gotten with a woman with: genetics are weird, it is absolutely possible that Mist could have a kid that is pretty much the spitting image of her brother, and for that kid to continue generating more Ike-alikes down the generations to Priam. I have a cousin who looks and acts waaaay more like one of our aunts than he does ether of his parents, it's actually a little creepy how similar they are.

Pfft can we not just say "Ike is probably bi or something" and end the whole argument? 

That still doesn't cover Boyd and Mist becoming 100% canon while every other possible RD pairing is entirely optional (save for Largo and Callil, but they were established between the two Tellius games, not at the end of RD). I don't think IS would make one RD pairing 100% canon while not doing the same for the rest.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Anacybele

[maybe]

7 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

That still doesn't cover Boyd and Mist becoming 100% canon while every other possible RD pairing is entirely optional (save for Largo and Callil, but they were established between the two Tellius games, not at the end of RD). I don't think IS would make one RD pairing 100% canon while not doing the same for the rest.

thing about that is, it's not possible for all of them to be canon, since ike has two

not sure what's relevant about that though

Edited June 4, 2017 by unique

[Anacybele]

2 minutes ago, unique said:

thing about that is, it's not possible for all of them to be canon, since ike has two

not sure what's relevant about that though

Both of Ike's can be canon by saying that both Soren and Ranulf went with him. Neither ending contradicts the other. I hope at least Ranulf did though, so Ike would still have a friend with him instead of being all alone. And I like Ranulf a lot. :P

Edited June 4, 2017 by Anacybele

[DarkLordIvy]

6 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

That still doesn't cover Boyd and Mist becoming 100% canon while every other possible RD pairing is entirely optional (save for Largo and Callil, but they were established between the two Tellius games, not at the end of RD). I don't think IS would make one RD pairing 100% canon while not doing the same for the rest.

Honestly I don't entirely have an answer for that, I have not finished playing RD (the fight on ebay is hell) so that might change once I do, but still by the same logic I don't think Priam has to 100% be a direct decedent of Ike. Maybe Mist had a kid at some point out of wedlock in her non-Boyd ending. Who knows? I don't think that that would be out of the realm of logic in a world like Tellius. 

[Anacybele]

4 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

Honestly I don't entirely have an answer for that, I have not finished playing RD (the fight on ebay is hell) so that might change once I do, but still by the same logic I don't think Priam has to 100% be a direct decedent of Ike. Maybe Mist had a kid at some point out of wedlock in her non-Boyd ending. Who knows? I don't think that that would be out of the realm of logic in a world like Tellius. 

Maybe, but it seems unlikely since Mist's non-paired ending has her living alone all her life. She never seemed like the type to live all by herself forever though. She seemed to love everyone.

Edited June 4, 2017 by Anacybele

[DarkLordIvy]

3 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Maybe, but it seems unlikely since Mist's non-paired ending has her living alone all her life.

That's a pretty ambiguous ending so like I said, who knows?

[Anacybele]

Just now, DarkLordIvy said:

That's a pretty ambiguous ending so like I said, who knows?

Oh yeah, it also said she turned away all suitors. But yeah, who knows, I guess.

I bet you those suitors were after her because IKE'S BLOODLINE! Fits in with what I said before about Ike's reputation affecting his friends and family even while he's far away and that's why I felt like his leaving was selfish on his part when he never ever acted selfish...

[DarkLordIvy]

Just now, Anacybele said:

Oh yeah, it also said she turned away all suitors. But yeah, who knows, I guess.

I bet you those suitors were after her because IKE'S BLOODLINE! Fits in with what I said before about Ike's reputation affecting his friends and family even while he's far away and that's why I felt like his leaving was selfish on his part when he never ever acted selfish...

I'd be surprised if that wasn't the reason for a good chunk of her suitors.

It might be a bit selfish but it also seems pretty in line with his character if you ask me. Ike does what he wants, and is such a blunt person I can't see him putting up with all the fawning and drama caused by his reputation. And like EricaofRenais said before; Ike leaving would decrease the pressure on his friends and family. Probably not right away, but in the long term people would come to realize that Ike did not leave a change of address and the attention would peter out. Besides this bit of selfishness can be read a kind of a much needed character flaw. Ike isn't infallible and not necessarily the perfect hero, I think it humanizes him.

[Anacybele]

17 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

I'd be surprised if that wasn't the reason for a good chunk of her suitors.

It might be a bit selfish but it also seems pretty in line with his character if you ask me. Ike does what he wants, and is such a blunt person I can't see him putting up with all the fawning and drama caused by his reputation. And like EricaofRenais said before; Ike leaving would decrease the pressure on his friends and family. Probably not right away, but in the long term people would come to realize that Ike did not leave a change of address and the attention would peter out. Besides this bit of selfishness can be read a kind of a much needed character flaw. Ike isn't infallible and not necessarily the perfect hero, I think it humanizes him.

I get that characters have to have flaws and things to seem human. But the flaws also have to make sense. Why make Ike selfish all of a sudden when that wasn't one of his flaws before? There also wasn't a defined reason for his departure, we can only speculate on it. At least establish a reason for his leaving, really.

I mean, let me use one of my Awakening OCs for example. His name is Ralph and his most notable trait is that he's so kind that it's not just a strength for him, it's also his biggest flaw. He's been taken advantage of for his kindness too many times to count. He also always feels a need to return any favor done for him and he has a hard time accepting gifts from others even if he technically worked for them. Why would I ever have him act selfish? It would contradict his other characteristics entirely, just as I feel it would Ike's.

[Scary tiki goddess]

 

2 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Tie that in with a hug, and you just might get some actual romantic implications there. But Ike was never seen holding hands with Soren.

So a hug and end cutscene to PoR would be considered romantic in combination, but the Ike/Soren hug in combination with Ike's renewed sense of how dear Soren is to him isn't? 

[DarkLordIvy]

2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

I get that characters have to have flaws and things to seem human. But the flaws also have to make sense. Why make Ike selfish all of a sudden when that wasn't one of his flaws before? There also wasn't a defined reason for his departure, we can only speculate on it. At least establish a reason for his leaving, really.

I mean, let me use one of my Awakening OCs for example. His name is Ralph and his most notable trait is that he's so kind that it's not just a strength for him, it's also his biggest flaw. He's been taken advantage of for his kindness too many times to count. He also always feels a need to return any favor done for him and he has a hard time accepting gifts from others even if he technically worked for them. Why would I ever have him act selfish? It would contradict his other characteristics entirely, just as I feel it would Ike's.

In some ways I don't know if Ike's leaving can entirely be considered selfish. His ending is verbatim "Once he saw stability returned, Ike left on a journey to lands still unknown. He was never seen again." Meaning it was probably at least couple of years before he left, and in all likely-hood he would have tied off as many loose-ends as he could during that time. Made sure all of his friends and family would be alright before he left.

Let me counter your OC's example with one of my own. In one story I'm working on one of the main character's defining traits is her tendency to bottle up her emotions and be generally a very stoic person. This is a pretty big flaw for her as it makes communicating with others difficult, she has trouble connecting with people, and only has two friends for the bulk of the story. However there are parts where she emotes, or does connect with other people for a number of reasons depending on the circumstances of what's going on in the story. And it doesn't contradict her character because "stoic" is not the only part of her personality. Similarly Ike is very selfless, but moments of selfishness don't necessarily seem entirely out of place or out of nowhere. Off the top of my head for instance chapter I think 7 of PoR has Ike leaving Elincia, Mist, and Rolf on their own to go looking for Greil which strikes me as a bit selfish, though not unwarranted given the circumstances.

I like the look of your character by the way! Ralph is a cute name.

[Anacybele]

34 minutes ago, Scary tiki goddess said:

 

So a hug and end cutscene to PoR would be considered romantic in combination, but the Ike/Soren hug in combination with Ike's renewed sense of how dear Soren is to him isn't? 

A hug and holding hands together, not simply an ending cutscene itself. Ike can hold as many people dear to him as he wants, it doesn't mean he's romantic with all of them.

34 minutes ago, DarkLordIvy said:

In some ways I don't know if Ike's leaving can entirely be considered selfish. His ending is verbatim "Once he saw stability returned, Ike left on a journey to lands still unknown. He was never seen again." Meaning it was probably at least couple of years before he left, and in all likely-hood he would have tied off as many loose-ends as he could during that time. Made sure all of his friends and family would be alright before he left.

Let me counter your OC's example with one of my own. In one story I'm working on one of the main character's defining traits is her tendency to bottle up her emotions and be generally a very stoic person. This is a pretty big flaw for her as it makes communicating with others difficult, she has trouble connecting with people, and only has two friends for the bulk of the story. However there are parts where she emotes, or does connect with other people for a number of reasons depending on the circumstances of what's going on in the story. And it doesn't contradict her character because "stoic" is not the only part of her personality. Similarly Ike is very selfless, but moments of selfishness don't necessarily seem entirely out of place or out of nowhere. Off the top of my head for instance chapter I think 7 of PoR has Ike leaving Elincia, Mist, and Rolf on their own to go looking for Greil which strikes me as a bit selfish, though not unwarranted given the circumstances.

I like the look of your character by the way! Ralph is a cute name.

Yeah, but the thing is, the ending isn't clear about what you say even though it is definitely possible. I just wish it was more clear, that's all.

As for chapter 7 in PoR, I believe Ike thought Elincia, Mist, and Rolf would be safe for the time being. That he didn't need to worry about them at that moment, but that catching up with his other comrades was important.

But maybe Ike could have occasional moments of selfishness. I mean, going back to my guy Ralph, he's not particularly known to get angry or pissy at people. Yet I wrote a scene where he does just that by punching a guy in the face after the guy riled him up about his past and him as a person. But see, I established this, whereas Ike doesn't seem to have any established moments of selfishness other than this ending, so the ending still strikes me as rather OoC. But people will interpret things differently, I guess.

Yeah, I like the name Ralph too. ^^ And he is one of my favorite OCs so far!

[Scary tiki goddess]

8 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

A hug and holding hands together, not simply an ending cutscene itself. Ike can hold as many people dear to him as he wants, it doesn't mean he's romantic with all of them.

Ike can hold as many people dear as he wants, but the fact of the matter is that his profile took care to point out how he holds Soren dear. The original point I was questioning: why shouldn't people consider this addition to the body of textual evidence for romantic Ike/Soren?

(Tangentially, I can't imagine Soren as the hand holding type, at least not openly.)

[Anacybele]

21 minutes ago, Scary tiki goddess said:

Ike can hold as many people dear as he wants, but the fact of the matter is that his profile took care to point out how he holds Soren dear. The original point I was questioning: why shouldn't people consider this addition to the body of textual evidence for romantic Ike/Soren?

(Tangentially, I can't imagine Soren as the hand holding type, at least not openly.)

And Elincia's and/or Lucia's profiles will probably mention how they hold each other dear. Still doesn't mean anything. Why should people automatically consider it to be romantic?

Also, again, there is no real text evidence for Ike and Soren as a romantic pair. I'm tired of people acting like it's canon when it isn't.

Edited June 5, 2017 by Anacybele