Is Ilyana really that good?

[sandmanccl]

I disagree with Ike/Oscar A being better than Ike/Soren A. Ike doesn't have problems getting hit when the enemies are powerful enough for that to matter, and his defense is pretty good for when he doesn't juke. Oscar is also kind of crappy (imo) compared to the other paladins.

I'd rather have the attack boost. Biggest reason: why not? Dual earth supports is a waste of dodge bonus you could be sharing with another unit. Dark gives you dodge, anyway (not as much, granted, but dodge all the same).

Soren is hands-down better than Ilyana. I don't care if her strength is better, because Soren still doesn't have a problem with attack speed unless you're sorely unlucky with his speed gains. The real killer is that he's got Adept right off the bat, making him incredibly potent on offense even if his speed doesn't pick up. Shade is nice but doesn't even really work in Path of Radiance.

The thing is, you can't go wrong with any of the mages in the game. Soren is great, Ilyana is great, Tormod is great, and even Calill and Bastian are great. Resistance is an utterly broken stat in PoR so your sages will be dishing out major hurt against all but the rarest of enemies.

[Florete]

Soren is hands-down better than Ilyana. I don't care if her strength is better, because Soren still doesn't have a problem with attack speed unless you're sorely unlucky with his speed gains. The real killer is that he's got Adept right off the bat, making him incredibly potent on offense even if his speed doesn't pick up. Shade is nice but doesn't even really work in Path of Radiance.

I disagree. I guess I'm really unlucky because my Soren never doubles and always dies. Adept is more bad for me than good, if you saw my previous post on that. Shade adds to Ilyana's already superior durability. And Oscar is among the best, if not the best paladin in the game.

Ike doesn't need the strength boost any more than he needs the avoid boost. I take the avoid boost so I know he isn't being hit.

One more thing: "Why not?" is never a good answer. Never has been, never will be.

[Masu]

Ilyana has always been amazing for me. But then again I always have godly magic users (my Soren Tormod Ilyana and Rhys could go on a slaughterfest on their own) but shitty lords!

[Serene]

Also on the subject of Soren's Adept. In my personal experience it feels like it's an emo adept. Because Soren seems to only activate it when he can kill and on an opponets phase along with an archer with a steel bow near the area

[Masu]

Also on the subject of Soren's Adept. In my personal experience it feels like it's an emo adept. Because Soren seems to only activate it when he can kill and on an opponets phase along with an archer with a steel bow near the area

Well soren IS emo afterall........

[Reikken]

Personally, I don't see a .3 difference as a real difference at all. Your character won't have a stat at 17.8 in the game. Now, if the case were something like the difference between 10.5 and 11.4, I wouldn't round and say it's the same. But something like a .35 difference... Seriously?

More accurate is more accurate, no matter what the difference is. All rounding does is make things less accurate.

"Your character won't have a stat at 17.8 in the game."

Of course. I'm not saying that they do. I was using average stat differences. I didn't say something like "Soren has 17.8 AS, so he can double this warrior, who has 13.7 AS, while Ilyana, who has 17.5 AS, cannot double it." Rather, I said that Soren's AS is an average of 0.3 higher, which means that he's very slightly more likely to be faster. Anyway, that one isn't even the one that matters most. It's the 2.3 atk and 2.4 AS that really matters.

Lol tier lists. Prepromotes are generally less liked just because they are prepromotes, even if one is good.

Correction: You like prepromotes less simply because they are prepromotes. I don't have that quirk, and I know of others who prefer prepromotes. Don't presume to speak for everyone.

He doesn't need it, but he needs Soren's support even less. Oscar is his fastest support, and arguably his best. His strength and skill are usually good enough, so ensuring he won't even be hit makes for a practically invincible duo. Soren could get a B with him, but IkeXOscar A is better than IkeXSoren A.

See, the thing is that he doesn't need to not be hit. Sure, he might get hit occasionally if he doesn't have an Oscar support, but it doesn't matter because he has good hp/def/res already. It takes several hits to take him down, not just one or two. He doesn't need to not take damage; he just needs to not die. He heals automatically at the end of every chapter. And everytime a healer heals him or Aether activates, besides.

However, he does not have enough atk power to one-round everything. And I also disagree on Ike-Oscar A. "Dual earth supports is a waste of dodge bonus you could be sharing with another unit." Namely, Kieran.

...and Bastian are great.

I can't call Bastian great at all. His mag is low, spd is low, hp/def is low, avoid is low, move is low.... He ranges from worst to well below average in all areas.

Edited October 18, 2008 by Reikken

[Florete]

More accurate is more accurate, no matter what the difference is. All rounding does is make things less accurate.

"Your character won't have a stat at 17.8 in the game."

Of course. I'm not saying that they do. I was using average stat differences. I didn't say something like "Soren has 17.8 AS, so he can double this warrior, who has 13.7 AS, while Ilyana, who has 17.5 AS, cannot double it." Rather, I said that Soren's AS is an average of 0.3 higher, which means that he's very slightly more likely to be faster. Anyway, that one isn't even the one that matters most. It's the 2.3 atk and 2.4 AS that really matters.

I guess when you get down to the nitty gritty. I was rounding because that's what they'd technically be at in battle at that level if you hit the averages. Can you really call a .3 difference an advantage?

Correction: You like prepromotes less simply because they are prepromotes. I don't have that quirk, and I know of others who prefer prepromotes. Don't presume to speak for everyone.

I actually like a lot of pre-promotes (Although not Stefan). I'm not saying I'm speaking for everyone, but I know prepromotes at least used to get more hate than love for being prepromotes by a number of the fan base.

See, the thing is that he doesn't need to not be hit. Sure, he might get hit occasionally if he doesn't have an Oscar support, but it doesn't matter because he has good hp/def/res already. It takes several hits to take him down, not just one or two. He doesn't need to not take damage; he just needs to not die. He heals automatically at the end of every chapter. And everytime a healer heals him or Aether activates, besides.

However, he does not have enough atk power to one-round everything. And I also disagree on Ike-Oscar A. "Dual earth supports is a waste of dodge bonus you could be sharing with another unit." Namely, Kieran.

You shouldn't assume Kieran is being deployed, even if he is awesome. In terms of what Ike wants, Oscar A/Soren B is in no way inferior to Oscar B/Soren A; He still gets the same +1 attack, but he gets more dodge. He doesn't need it, but it just might save him.

[Reikken]

I guess when you get down to the nitty gritty. I was rounding because that's what they'd technically be at in battle at that level if you hit the averages. Can you really call a .3 difference an advantage?

an extremely tiny one, yes

You shouldn't assume Kieran is being deployed, even if he is awesome. In terms of what Ike wants, Oscar A/Soren B is in no way inferior to Oscar B/Soren A; He still gets the same +1 attack, but he gets more dodge. He doesn't need it, but it just might save him.

You can't assume Oscar is deployed either...

Can Soren be restricted to a B Ike? Yes. But it's not that likely.

Edited October 18, 2008 by Reikken

[Florete]

You can't assume Oscar is deployed either...

Can Soren be restricted to a B Ike? Yes. But it's not that likely.

Oscar is more likely on account of him being forced for a while and having a good and fast support with the main lord. Otherwise I wouldn't assume it.

Soren can get A Ike, but it won't help Ike that much.

[Reikken]

Oscar is more likely on account of him being forced for a while and having a good and fast support with the main lord. Otherwise I wouldn't assume it.

Or... Kieran is more likely because he comes on a higher level and has better offense.

Oscar is forced for a bit but isn't needed at all (Titania, Gatrie, Shinon), and the more kills he gets, the less you can give to Ike, Boyd, Soren (this is about the higher level bit: Kieran needs less exp).

[Relinquished]

Hmph. Illyana is awesome. Every time I use her, she turns out better then Soren does whenever I use him. Maybe she can't kill dragons, but she can kill most any other enemy. Also, she has great speed. Every PT she gets one of the highest speeds out of my units. So yeah, she really is THAT good.

same with me.

in my PT, the "average" you say so much turns the other way around. EVERY TIME I ATTACK WITH SOREN, HE WON'T DOUBLE SHIT. Instead, i use Ilyana and she caps SPD and MAG pretty quickly. That's why i don't rely on averages. Even if there is a 1% chance to have "different" stats, it's still a possibility (lol getting killed with a 1% HIT is a very good example). It seems that you rely more on theory than practice.

Frail? She? Maybe she is, but if you manage to get your mages hurt, it's a pretty poor example of strategy, amirite?

TL;DR: In my opinion, averages are not reliable. Not even the slightest

[sandmanccl]

I disagree. I guess I'm really unlucky because my Soren never doubles and always dies. Adept is more bad for me than good, if you saw my previous post on that. Shade adds to Ilyana's already superior durability. And Oscar is among the best, if not the best paladin in the game.

Ike doesn't need the strength boost any more than he needs the avoid boost. I take the avoid boost so I know he isn't being hit.

One more thing: "Why not?" is never a good answer. Never has been, never will be.

You must not have read my answer. Perhaps "why not" was a bad way to put it, but the fact is dual earth supports is a waste. Ever done Ike/Soren A? I assume you've done it at least once. Ike STILL doesn't get hit, and in fact it makes it so Soren pretty much never gets hit. I don't care if Earth x Earth gives you MORE dodge, it's an unnecessary more. Earth x Dark A is more than enough avoid and increases your power on top of that.

Also, I don't like Oscar in PoR. All the cavaliers are fairly good, I guess, but I don't see a point in Oscar. Titania, a pre-promote, is usable for every map he is and she has better gains than he does in every area. I just don't see a point in using him when you can be giving the experience in the early stages to other characters that turn out better in the end (like Boyd, or Soren, or Ike, or a dozen other units that join up relatively early). His only real benefit is is you promote him early enough along with his brothers, you have a ranged triangle attack, which IS pretty damn awesome.

I read your argument against Adept and still don't get it. So your weapon level doesn't increase as fast. I give that a very large "Big Whoop." Admittedly in my own Playthrough where I got Soren to 20/16 or so, he barely got to use Tornado near the end of the game, but it didn't actually make him any better than using just Elwind. He still killed everything in a round, didn't matter which tome he chose. The difference between doing 25 damage to a guy twice and doing 20 damage to a guy twice when they have 40 HP is that you probably spent more money on the weapon that did 25 damage twice. In the rare occasions where Soren wasn't quite going to kill the guy, he seemed to miraculously pull Adept out of his butt (kind of upsetting me sometimes because I wanted to weaken the enemy to kill it with a babied character).

Durability arguments just don't hold any water to me in discussions of archers and mages because I don't let them get attacked unless I'm just not trying that hard. Admittedly, I wasn't trying very hard toward the last half of the game because your units are so powerful that everything gets steamrolled.

[Swordsalmon]

Her supports with Gatrie and Mordecai give her full defense, highly useful for a mage. She has enoush strength to weild most tomes without AS loss, something Soren severely lacks in. Her growths are average-good, she comes at a decent level with decent bases pretty early on. She uses the strongest magic that also happens to have the highest crit.

Other than that, she's always been amazing for me. Of the mage trio, it's always been Ilyana>Tormod>Soren for me.

Gatrie won't be used. Ilyana is best with Mordecai A, Zihark B, since then she gets +4 Defense and +10% Avoid.

While Ilyana>Soren is very arguable, Soren destroys Tormod. It's not even a fair comparison; Tormod joins far too late.

Don't forget that Soren comes with the Adept skill.

Adept is basically a non-factor for most the game. 1/2 Skill% is very unreliable.

Lol tier lists. Prepromotes are generally less liked just because they are prepromotes, even if one is good.

Lose your bias. Try supporting characters you don't even like; you'll be surprised.

Though on the subject, Soren and Ilyana makes a nice comparison. Stat-wise, Soren has her beat a bit after promotion, but he also starts terribly. I do believe Ilyana is slightly better though, if only because she isn't as terrible upon joining as Soren's joining is.

[Reikken]

Soren's start is only terrible if you try to get him up to Oscar, Ike, etc.'s level. If you don't feed him kills, leaving him underleveled so that he's only about as high as Ilyana when she joins, he's only helping.

Titania, a pre-promote, is usable for every map he is and she has better gains than he does in every area.

lol'd. I never noticed that.

And Adept is skill, not skill/2. The activation rate is actually fairly high post-promotion.

Edited October 18, 2008 by Reikken

[Florete]

Lose your bias. Try supporting characters you don't even like; you'll be surprised.

I've already said I don't personally hate prepromotes. Did you read this?

I actually like a lot of pre-promotes (Although not Stefan). I'm not saying I'm speaking for everyone, but I know prepromotes at least used to get more hate than love for being prepromotes by a number of the fan base.

I'm reasonably sure there are still those out there. I also don't like how you just assume someone like Gatrie isn't being deployed. If they want to, they can.

I read your argument against Adept and still don't get it. So your weapon level doesn't increase as fast. I give that a very large "Big Whoop."

You didn't see the right post... One of two things happens with me with Adept: He kills when I only wanted him to weaken, or he kills and allows another enemy to come in and kill him.

[Judge Judy]

Ilyana has always been amazing for me. But then again I always have godly magic users (my Soren Tormod Ilyana and Rhys could go on a slaughterfest on their own) but shitty lords!

Same here, well except the lords part.

All my magic users turns out great in all FE games. Only one which just plain sucks is Ceclia in FE6 (sorry I forgot how to spell her name)

Back to Ilyanna. From my experience, she is just like Soren. The only major difference between them is Soren has better speed. Though Ilyanna speed is not really bad compared to other units.

She always manage to double attack some units.

Edited October 19, 2008 by Luxord

[Florete]

Only one which just plain sucks is Ceclia in FE6 (sorry I forgot how to spell her name)

Cecilia. She's a valkyrie, so I love her, even if she does suck. Amazingly enough, she actually saved me a couple times on her joining chapter.

[Judge Judy]

Cecilia. She's a valkyrie, so I love her, even if she does suck. Amazingly enough, she actually saved me a couple times on her joining chapter.

No I don't hate her. I still use her for support in the game, I mean I just find it really hard to level her up.

Edited October 19, 2008 by Luxord

[Florete]

No I don't hate her. I still use her for support in the game, I mean I just find it really hard to level her up.

I never said you hated her... I've never used her past her joining chapter, but I'm sure I will eventually.

[Kintenbo]

In both games, Illyana just never struck home with me. She was never horrible, but she was never super special awesome. In Radiant Dawn, if she doesn't get speed screwed, she can actually be pretty good. That Radiant Dawn thunder is the only problem....

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Her C rank in staff (and the fact that I didn't train saul) is the only reason I used her on chapters 19, 20, 20x (Sacae), 22 and 23.

Edited October 19, 2008 by Boo

[sandmanccl]

Gatrie won't be used. Ilyana is best with Mordecai A, Zihark B, since then she gets +4 Defense and +10% Avoid.

While Ilyana>Soren is very arguable, Soren destroys Tormod. It's not even a fair comparison; Tormod joins far too late.

Adept is basically a non-factor for most the game. 1/2 Skill% is very unreliable.

Lose your bias. Try supporting characters you don't even like; you'll be surprised.

Though on the subject, Soren and Ilyana makes a nice comparison. Stat-wise, Soren has her beat a bit after promotion, but he also starts terribly. I do believe Ilyana is slightly better though, if only because she isn't as terrible upon joining as Soren's joining is.

How ironic you're telling someone to lose their bias in one of the most biased things I've read in this topic.

Gatrie is plenty good. You don't need to be fast yo be awesome. It's extremely easy with his super mega awesome defense gains to be invincible against all but mage enemies. His skill and strength make him a viable offensive threat as well. Ilyana x Gatrie is perfectly reasonable because they tag-team rather well. One softens while the other finishes the kill.

Tormod also doesn't join "too late". That's just a silly argument. He joins after the desert chapter, which is before you really go through the big grind XP maps. You're showing your bias against units that need slight babying in order to be good. It's not hard to raise him up at all because he's monstrously fast and has the strength to keep his AS up even with the heaviest of tomes.

@ Fox: You hate adept for reasons I hate swordmasters, but you still like swordmasters. Just pointing that out. Fact is, it's more good than bad, especially on a ranged person like Soren. You REALLY shouldn't be leaving him (or Ilyana or any archer or any cleric or pretty much anyone that's not in heavy armor or on a horse) in range of more than two enemies at any given time. Take into consideration that he might end up killing someone you don't want him to kill while you're on the defensive and you'll make better decisions.

[Florete]

@ Fox: You hate adept for reasons I hate swordmasters, but you still like swordmasters. Just pointing that out. Fact is, it's more good than bad, especially on a ranged person like Soren. You REALLY shouldn't be leaving him (or Ilyana or any archer or any cleric or pretty much anyone that's not in heavy armor or on a horse) in range of more than two enemies at any given time. Take into consideration that he might end up killing someone you don't want him to kill while you're on the defensive and you'll make better decisions.

Swordmasters have much better avoid and are much more likely to live. They also have better, if only slightly, HP and defense. I don't generally throw my sages out to be attacked, but it will happen occasionally in a time of need, and when I need him to leave the enemy alive at the most desperate moments... he kills them, and he dies.

[XIII Hearts]

I know this thread is pretty old, but to throw my two cents in in case anyone is still aware of this thread, Ilyana has always turned out better than Soren for me, and my most recent playthrough of POR has her at her best.  These are her stats at level 20 Sage:

HP: 43

STR: 11

MAG: 30

SKILL: 28

SPEED: 28

LUCK: 21

DEF: 9

RES: 28

As for stat boosters, I use 1 Magic Dust, 1 Skill Book, and 1 Speedwing.  She had already capped RES a while ago, and all she needed was a few stat boosters to cap out MAG, SKILL, and SPEED and her STR means that she can use Thoron without any AS loss, and if I use my last Energy drop on her, she will only suffer 1 AS loss wielding Rexbolt.  I was freaking blessed.  I tried to use Soren, but dropped him after chapter 17 because he was becoming more and more useless.  These are his level 1 bases:

HP: 18

STR: 0

MAG: 6

SKILL: 8

SPEED: 8

LUCK: 5

DEF: 2

RES: 6

When I dropped him at a level 15 Mage, these were his stats:

HP:  25

STR: 0

MAG: 8

SKILL: 17

SPEED: 11

LUCK: 12

DEF: 3

RES: 16

He has solid SKILL and RES, but he somehow only got 3 SPEED and 2 MAG stats after 14 level ups, which I don't understand at all because he has higher growths in both of those areas than Ilyana.  I had to bench him because he stopped doing adequate damage and the "speedy mage" couldn't double for shit.  As for how he was when I got Ilyana, his stats were either equal or slightly lower than Ilyana's when she joined at chapter 8.  And this wasn't the first time I had to drop Soren.  Though Ilyana wasn't as good as she is now, my previous two playthroughs of POR has me drop Soren for Ilyana because Ilyana kept surpassing Soren.  Has anyone else experienced this?

[Integrity]

6 hours ago, XIII Hearts said:

I know this thread is pretty old, but to throw my two cents in in case anyone is still aware of this thread,

but ur not supposed to do that dog......