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Well most of them are PACs of the left so I wouldn't claim intellectual honesty, same if it came from Fox or Brietbart

ah yes the journal of the national cancer institute and medscape, known hillary shill media husks, #wakeupsheeple

not to mention there is literally no reason why american "left" media groups would try to paint cuba in a positive light. i'm not sure what your point is here

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I think people from US are more biased against him than non US people.

US propaganda against Castro is more successful than those campaigns try to overthrow him.

People leave Cuba for many reason

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_embargo_against_Cuba

And it is also easier for a Cuban to become a full American citizen than people from other countries.

. . .so you've proved my point that Cuba isn't some amazing paradise, and even the "perks" that are mentioned by that Spanish speech aren't enough to keep people there. Thanks.

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. . .so you've proved my point that Cuba isn't some amazing paradise, and even the "perks" that are mentioned by that Spanish speech aren't enough to keep people there. Thanks.

You do realise nobody ever said cuba is some "amazing paradise," yeah? You're saying that like you just proved an incredible point.

I think saying BUT PEOPLE ESCAPE !!! doesn't prove BUT THE COUNTRY IS SHIIIT

Good job though, i guess, you do seem proud of yourself

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Cuba is by most metrics rather middle-of-the-road. It's certainly not a paradise like some idealistic Communist fans might act (though I don't think anyone has pushed that in this thread?) but nor is it some hellhole either, and in fact compares relatively favourably to other Carribean countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where-to-be-born_Index (source: Economist Intelligence Unit, certainly no communist lover)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index (source: UN)

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Cuba is by most metrics rather middle-of-the-road. It's certainly not a paradise like some idealistic Communist fans might act (though I don't think anyone has pushed that in this thread?) but nor is it some hellhole either, and in fact compares relatively favourably to other Carribean countries.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Where-to-be-born_Index (source: Economist Intelligence Unit, certainly no communist lover)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index (source: UN)

The fact that both the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia rank that high in the previous list makes me seriously doubt its accuracy.

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I think the HDI is an useful metric, but it's a very poor way to measure countries against each other, because it's extremely limited (it only measures life expectancy, GDP per capita, average number of years in school and illiteracy rate). You can see Saudi Arabia and Qatar are ranked really high in it.

If you look at the economist's index:

  • Material well-being as measured by GDP per capita (in $, at 2006 constant PPPS)
  • Life expectancy at birth
  • The quality of family life based primarily on divorce rates
  • The state of political freedoms
  • Job security (measured by the unemployment rate)
  • Climate (measured by two variables: the average deviation of minimum and maximum monthly temperatures from 14 degrees Celsius; and the number of months in the year with less than 30mm rainfall)
  • Personal physical security ratings (based primarily on recorded homicide rates and ratings for risk from crime and terrorism)
  • Quality of community life (based on membership in social organisations)
  • Governance (measured by ratings for corruption)
  • Gender equality (measured by the share of seats in parliament held by women)

I don't see how to rate corruption in Cuba. I'd expect gender equality, homicide rate, life expectancy, membership in social organizations, divorce rates (why the fuck is this even relevant?), and the unemployment rate (communist governments artificially create jobs to eradicate unemployment, which brings in a lot of other problems) to be well ranked, while GDP per capita and political freedom would be really bad(with the later being close to zero?). So yeah, The focus of the rank makes Cuba rank well, assuming each item holds the same weight.

The social indexes of Cuba are pretty good, yeah, and that's mostly what those indexes rate. Still, there they don't measure the access of the population to stuff like technology, how they're affected by shortages, the overall state of the economy, how easy life actually is for the people, how much they can actually afford. The average salary in Cuba is 687 Cuban pesos (not to be confused with the more valuable convertible pesos). Source: http://www.tradingeconomics.com/cuba/wages

The exchange rate of the cuban peso to the dollar is 1:25. That means the average monthly wage in Cuba is 27.50 dollars. That's really low, and it's not measured by any of these ranks

The thing is, Cuba is probably one of the few dictatorships in the world that you you see people willing to defend, sugarcoat or just downright saying "well, it's not that bad".

Another thing that I see often is people claiming Cuba ranks decently in this sort of ranks because of the communist regimen. Cuba ranked well compared to the rest of latin american (even better actually), even in the days of (the also awful dictator) Fulgencio Batista. Cuba was always one of the richest countries in latin america. I honestly assume that, had it became a democracy in the 60s rather than what it is now, the country would be ranking even better, while also being a better place from every other measure.

The sort of regimen Cuba has wouldn't be justified even if it made it the most prosperous country in the world according to social indexes, which it does not.

Edited by Nooooooooooooooooooooobody
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The fact that both the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia rank that high in the previous list makes me seriously doubt its accuracy.

I'm not going to apologise for those countries because they have serious problems (and I'm pretty sure both tumble a lot if you rank by "best places to be a woman" instead) but I believe their relatively high level of wealth goes a long way towards their livability. In some ways they're the opposite of Cuba, except that they share the trait of being very authoritarian. Regardless, I don't think either list is necessarily perfect for what we're trying to measure here but hopefully my broad point is clear.

The thing is, Cuba is probably one of the few dictatorships in the world that you you see people willing to defend, sugarcoat or just downright saying "well, it's not that bad".

Russia and China both definitely have fans, among others. Cuba may have more (depending on what your pool of people is for that comment) and I think the reason is rather obvious (some people legitimately want to see a working form of communism) but it's hardly an isolated case. People see things they like in dictatorships (and in some cases there might be some isolated things they happen to be doing well, for all that I agree you pretty much never get the best results that way). Even Nazi Germany had fans doing what you described, and they weren't few in number.

I honestly assume that, had it became a democracy in the 60s rather than what it is now, the country would be ranking even better, while also being a better place from every other measure.

Oh, absolutely. Being an effective, working democracy correlates very strongly with doing well on these sorts of indices and generally being good places to live. I don't think many people would argue with your statement.

The sort of regimen Cuba has wouldn't be justified even if it made it the most prosperous country in the world according to social indexes, which it does not.

Nobody (or at least neither anyone in this thread, nor Trudeau) has claimed otherwise.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf
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I'm not going to apologise for those countries because they have serious problems (and I'm pretty sure both tumble a lot if you rank by "best places to be a woman" instead) but I believe their relatively high level of wealth goes a long way towards their livability. In some ways they're the opposite of Cuba, except that they share the trait of being very authoritarian. Regardless, I don't think either list is necessarily perfect for what we're trying to measure here but hopefully my broad point is clear.

Except that the wealth isn't evenly distributed-it's extremely concentrated in the hands of a few. The large majority of the populace in both countries lives in very poor conditions. Having a small chance of being born in an extremely rich family doesn't compensate that otherwise the person will start at the bottom.

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You do realise nobody ever said cuba is some "amazing paradise," yeah? You're saying that like you just proved an incredible point.

I think saying BUT PEOPLE ESCAPE !!! doesn't prove BUT THE COUNTRY IS SHIIIT

Good job though, i guess, you do seem proud of yourself

What's the point of this post? No, really, explain what you could possibly accomplish with this, because I'm not seeing it.

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. . .so you've proved my point that Cuba isn't some amazing paradise, and even the "perks" that are mentioned by that Spanish speech aren't enough to keep people there. Thanks.

I don't think I've proved anything. It's just your illusion.

People simply can't travel freely between the 2 countries because of the embargo.

Let's wait until it is fully lifted to see if they keep risking their life instead of doing it legally.

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I don't think I've proved anything. It's just your illusion.

People simply can't travel freely between the 2 countries because of the embargo.

Let's wait until it is fully lifted to see if they keep risking their life instead of doing it legally.

if you think people can't leave Cuba freely because of the embargo, then you're objectively and factually wrong. Like, that doesn't make any sense lol. What sort of place do you read that sort of stuff on?

The only country to embargo Cuba is the USA. Why the fuck wouldn't Cubans be able to leave freely to OTHER countries if it was the embargo's fault? They can not as it is now.

Edited by Nooooooooooooooooooooobody
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I don't think I've proved anything. It's just your illusion.

People simply can't travel freely between the 2 countries because of the embargo.

Let's wait until it is fully lifted to see if they keep risking their life instead of doing it legally.

When you emphasize positives and handwave negatives, that's a sign that you've got an agenda to push.

Like so.

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if you think people can't leave Cuba freely because of the embargo, then you're objectively and factually wrong. Like, that doesn't make any sense lol. What sort of place do you read that sort of stuff on?

The only country to embargo Cuba is the USA. Why the fuck wouldn't Cubans be able to leave freely to OTHER countries if it was the embargo's fault? They can not as it is now.

Sorry but I have to ask, what part of "travel freely between the 2 countries" you don't understand?

When you emphasize positives and handwave negatives, that's a sign that you've got an agenda to push.

Like so.

Just until last year, http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52391

"By a vote of 191 in favour to two against (Israel and the United States)"

And this year, http://www.un.org/press/en/2016/ga11846.doc.htm

Well, this also explain why Life created the thread. He's an Israeli after all.

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Sorry but I have to ask, what part of "travel freely between the 2 countries" you don't understand?

Just until last year, http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52391

"By a vote of 191 in favour to two against (Israel and the United States)"

And this year, http://www.un.org/press/en/2016/ga11846.doc.htm

Well, this also explain why Life created the thread. He's an Israeli after all.

. . .did you even read what I linked?

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I'm gonna quote something from way back when in the topic:

However, I have no qualms about disliking Castro because of what he did. Imagine how much it would suck if you had to censor yourself, on pain of death.

So, let's include this under "what he did":

Migration talks are supposed to occur twice yearly. No migration talks have been held since January 2004, however, because the State Department cancelled them due to Cuba's refusal to discuss the following key issues:

  • Cuba's issuance of exit permits for all qualified migrants.
  • Cuba's cooperation in holding a new registration for an immigrant lottery.
  • The need for a deeper Cuban port utilized by the U.S. Coast Guard for the repatriation of Cubans interdicted at sea.
  • Cuba's responsibility to permit U.S. diplomats to travel to monitor returned migrants.
  • Cuba's obligation to accept the return of Cuban nationals determined to be excludable from the United States.

If all you're going to do is blame America for everything, I'm gonna counter it with the fact that Cuba isn't blameless. At the very least, it'll show whoever's reading this a far more balanced view than what you're willing to offer.

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Sorry but I have to ask, what part of "travel freely between the 2 countries" you don't understand?Just until last year, http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52391"By a vote of 191 in favour to two against (Israel and the United States)"And this year, http://www.un.org/press/en/2016/ga11846.doc.htmWell, this also explain why Life created the thread. He's an Israeli after all.

You are the only that does not understand

If cubans can't travel freely to countries that don't embargo cuba, there's absolutely no reason to believe they'd be able to travel freely to the usa if the embargo did not exist.

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Sorry but I have to ask, what part of "travel freely between the 2 countries" you don't understand?

Just until last year, http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=52391

"By a vote of 191 in favour to two against (Israel and the United States)"

And this year, http://www.un.org/press/en/2016/ga11846.doc.htm

Well, this also explain why Life created the thread. He's an Israeli after all.

No, it doesn't. This is your attempt at poisoning the well.

​I created the thread because I'm also Canadian (dual-citizenship) and I've never been so ashamed of being Canadian in my life due to Trudeau's statement. But hell, the UN Human Rights Council followed suit. Because hypocrisy doesn't exist in the lefty handbook.

http://louderwithcrowder.com/u-n-human-rights-council-holds-moment-silence-fidel-castro/

​This has absolutely nothing to do with me being Israeli. I even said in the opening post that "I was ashamed to call myself Canadian". In fact, let's quote it.

Honestly, I am ashamed to call myself Canadian.

If I have an angle to push, I'll be upfront and push it. Fuck you for even pretending to insinuate that I'm doing this out of nationalistic pride to a country that I haven't mentioned in this thread.

Edited by Life
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