Shipping Survey

[shadowofchaos]

That's the exact point of Awakening having S supports and such.

Since a game gives people choices, being completely vague on everything is an impossibly. Story relationships will sell a pair more when they are main characters since interactions will be more often in the players' eyes.

While I agree with your reasoning, the two of you are putting a lot of focus on pairing complaints over... "it doesn't cater to my pairing freedoms"? The least important aspect of any Fire Emblem game with the exception of Genealogy.

On the flipside, there is also the minority (just as you are) that hate fixed pairings. I have seen Marth and Caeda hating for Catria.

Criticism over game design as you imply seems trivial just because a game shows preferential treatment.

At least it's not what Dragon Quest pulled. Look that one up.

Edited December 1, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[PersonWithTime]

Well speaking for myself, I'm not gonna set the game on fire because it's pushing a particular pairing. When the game does something like that's it's incredibly annoying, but I'm not gonna drop the game because of it. I'm just gonna firmly say, "No!" and make sure those characters are as far away from each other as they can get. It's just that this topic is about parings... so... I'm uh... I'm gonna talk about pairings a little bit, eh?

What actually would bother me though is someone telling me I'm playing the game wrong because I'm not doing the "canon" pairing. Because I've played Binding Blade and no one mentions that Roy's mother was an Ice Dragon, or a Pegasus Knight or even from Sacae for that matter, so I'm just going to play it how I want to and make my own canon for it. I mean they give you all of these different options to have fun with it, so why not have fun with it?

Like, this might sound weird but I don't even feel obligated to get any of the kids in Fates, I just not interested and I tried to pair people up but I just didn't like the majority of them all so... I just didn't do it, and I finished 2 out of the 3 versions without any kids. That's just how I wanted to play the game.

Hell, I married Niles and it bothers me when people say that that was a stupid choice for technical gameplay reasons, it's like, "dude, let me play my game man."

I just want everyone to be happy doing whatever they want to do.

[Augestein]

That's the exact point of Awakening having S supports and such.

Since a game gives people choices, being completely vague on everything is an impossibly. Story relationships will sell a pair more when they are main characters since interactions will be more often in the players' eyes.

While I agree with your reasoning, the two of you are putting a lot of focus on pairing complaints over... "it doesn't cater to my pairing freedoms"? The least important aspect of any Fire Emblem game with the exception of Genealogy.

On the flipside, there is also the minority (just as you are) that hate fixed pairings. I have seen Marth and Caeda hating for Catria.

Criticism over game design as you imply seems trivial just because a game shows preferential treatment.

At least it's not what Dragon Quest pulled. Look that one up.

I don't think that they mean that it needs to not hint at anything at all, just not display preferential treatment to any specific ship. Like, they don't have a problem with say, Fire Emblem 8 allowing Eirika to have potential ships with Seth, Saleh, and Innes on the account that Eirika interacts with all of these men, and doesn't actually show any real romantic feelings with them outside of being friendly -- like she is to everyone, however, the supports that Eirika can have with these 3 men expand in such a way that they take a romantic spin on things. I can actually completely see this argument too, as it just makes the writing weaker in general to have a preferential choice but ultimately leave it to the player's choice.I don't know if you're a final fantasy fan, but here's an example:

I don't care which ship you like in Final Fantasy 7 for Cloud, whether it be Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, or Barret, but it is not handled as well as say... Zidane with Garnet on the account that the prior ships are optional. Because Zidane's pairing isn't optional, there's more time that can spent developing the two characters within their interactions, and you get to see their relationship evolve from awkward to friends, and from friends to eventually lovers. It makes you happy to see Garnet run down to see Zidane, lose her crown, and not even care. You can't make effective endings like that with optional pairings, and even if you COULD do that, it makes the other pairings seem dull and pointless in comparison (and honestly brings up the question of why bother?). Meanwhile, Cloud's ships can't really move on in the relationship and can't get passed the "Maybe I love you" interactions because none of them are canon.

As for Dragon Quest, I guess the question here being "which one?" Because they've definitely done that more than once. I'm assuming you mean 8, and if that's the case, yes, I'll let them be surprised if they want to look it up.

[Magical Glace]

Since the only DQ games with shipping game mechanics are V (where it's extremely relevant to the plot) and the 3DS version of 8, I'll just post my views on those... the latter in a spoiler tag for those who haven't seen the new stuff yet.

[spoiler=DQ8 3DS] The Jessica endings in the 3DS version of DQ8 did not exist in the PS2 or iOS/Android versions and were ridiculously nonsensical and rushed, I don't like them. So I can agree about complaining there. The Medea endings were the only ones in the PS2 and iOS/Android versions and they're ship teased the whole game, so.

If you mean V though, I never really minded the Bianca pushing even though I like Nera more (screw Deborah though) since after the wedding whoever wasn't chosen of the two/three girls proceeds to do nothing plot relevant for the remainder of the game, and the game's clearly going for your preferred pair from there out.

The "Bianca becomes an abused barmaid and her dad dies if you don't choose her in older versions" thing is known to be a myth.

Anyway.

For FE13 pairs, besides Tharja x fiery pits of despair, I don't really care enough about the characters to have huge preferences besides Chrom/Olivia.

[Anacybele]

I don't think that they mean that it needs to not hint at anything at all, just not display preferential treatment to any specific ship. Like, they don't have a problem with say, Fire Emblem 8 allowing Eirika to have potential ships with Seth, Saleh, and Innes on the account that Eirika interacts with all of these men, and doesn't actually show any real romantic feelings with them outside of being friendly -- like she is to everyone, however, the supports that Eirika can have with these 3 men expand in such a way that they take a romantic spin on things. I can actually completely see this argument too, as it just makes the writing weaker in general to have a preferential choice but ultimately leave it to the player's choice.I don't know if you're a final fantasy fan, but here's an example:

I don't care which ship you like in Final Fantasy 7 for Cloud, whether it be Tifa, Aerith, Yuffie, or Barret, but it is not handled as well as say... Zidane with Garnet on the account that the prior ships are optional. Because Zidane's pairing isn't optional, there's more time that can spent developing the two characters within their interactions, and you get to see their relationship evolve from awkward to friends, and from friends to eventually lovers. It makes you happy to see Garnet run down to see Zidane, lose her crown, and not even care. You can't make effective endings like that with optional pairings, and even if you COULD do that, it makes the other pairings seem dull and pointless in comparison (and honestly brings up the question of why bother?). Meanwhile, Cloud's ships can't really move on in the relationship and can't get passed the "Maybe I love you" interactions because none of them are canon.

As for Dragon Quest, I guess the question here being "which one?" Because they've definitely done that more than once. I'm assuming you mean 8, and if that's the case, yes, I'll let them be surprised if they want to look it up.

Yeah, this post here.

[PersonWithTime]

Yes Augestein!

That was very well put together!

[Radiant head]

maybe I'm missing something here, but what is wrong with writers being preferential? ultimately it's their story, the devs are already pandering enough to the player by letting them have the ultimate say in pairings. the idea that they have to all be equally ambiguous seems like an artificial restraint to put on whoever is actually writing the story, creating the characters, etc. that a player might be offended because they have different preferences doesn't seem like a good enough reason here

Edited December 1, 2016 by Radiant head

[Anacybele]

maybe I'm missing something here, but what is wrong with writers being preferential? ultimately it's their story, the devs are already pandering enough to the player by letting them have the ultimate say in pairings. the idea that they have to all be equally ambiguous seems like an artificial restraint to put on whoever is actually writing the story, creating the characters, etc. that a player might be offended because they have different preferences doesn't seem like a good enough reason here

Because like said before, the devs' pandering slaps other options in the face and leads idiot shippers to claim that only the pushed pairing is right and that all the other pairings are wrong and that's super annoying and ignorant. And like I said, why include other options if you want pairing X to be the preferred or pushed one? I would just scrap other options all together and make one pairing canon like Marth and Caeda.

It's not about getting offended over anything.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

Because like said before, the devs' pandering slaps other options in the face

And?

Why does it matter?

Why is it such an important thing to restrain the writer for a petty reason?

If you like a pair anyway, then who cares if it's preferential or not? Both sides throw crap at each other anyway regardless of this. You are not being oppressed.

If you have preferential pairings:

Idiot shippers on side a say "it's dev preferred, your tastes are crap" while idiot shippers on side b do what you do: "Idiot shippers are encroaching on my preference. Their tastes are crap."

If you don't:

Side a: "I think this is canon, your tastes are crap."

Side b: "There are no hints. You're seeing what you want to see. Your tastes are crap."

Blaming the devs isn't amounting to anything because it wouldn't matter.

I mean, goodness, people get offended at the notion of two characters kissing/having sex or not kissing/having sex.

There's a reason people that are passionate about pairings get mocked in any fandom you can come up with.

As for Augustein's example with Zidane. There's a problem with that in FE.

People die when they are killed.

Marth and Caeda have the Artemis' Curse ending. Fire Emblem cannot reap the fixed pairing benefits unless they are immune to permadeath via plot armor.

Edited December 1, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

And?

Why does it matter?

Because it's little different from giving the middle finger to other options they put in and by extension, the players that prefer those options as well?

Edited December 1, 2016 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

You're exaggerating how bad the situation is.

Again, pairings are the least important aspect of any FE game.

What do you play Fire Emblem for?

You're literally criticizing preference. The very thing you're defending.

Are the creators not allowed to have connections to their characters and have their original vision scrapped in the name of pairing equality?

"You are offending my preferences with your preference."

Edited December 1, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

You're exaggerating how bad the situation is.

Again, pairings are the least important aspect of any FE game.

What do you play Fire Emblem for?

You're literally criticizing preference. The very thing you're defending.

Are the creators not allowed to have connections to their characters and have their original vision scrapped in the name of pairing equality?

"You are offending my preferences with your preference."

And you're twisting my words, just like you always do. I'm tired of going through the same crap with you over and over and over.

I play FE for the gameplay, story, and characters most of all. Pairings are pretty important in the series too though, what with marriage being a big implementation in the most recent two games.

[Jave]

I think that expecting games with multiple paired endings to not be biased towards certain pairings is a bit ridiculous. These writers are human too, so they are going to show their preferences when writing the game. Even if they try to not do so, I feel it's something inevitable.

I mean, all FE games with multiple paired endings have bias towards certain pairings. All of them. Jugdral probably takes the cake, though, with all FE4 pairings being either "Pair these two and you get tons of character development, an extra awesome weapon for your inventory, and the best kids in 2nd gen" or "Pair these two and you get jack squat and mediocre children".

Oh, and of course FE5 then comes along and canonizes at least two optional FE4 pairings.

[shadowofchaos]

And you're twisting my words, just like you always do. I'm tired of going through the same crap with you over and over and over.

Your position: Devs give a middle finger to other people's preferences by preferring a pair.

Therefore you are against their preference with your own pairs.

Which are: Surprise surprise: Your preference.

So you are saying that them choosing a pair is somehow offensive to you.

Which means, your preferences are more important than theirs.

How is that twisting your words?

Ana, I've been in the FE community longer than you have. And no one but you has had a problem with my logical operations. You also see other members "twist your words". I'm not the problem. Your logic is.

No mod in the forum is going to warn me for "badgering" you as you see me doing.

I think that expecting games with multiple paired endings to not be biased towards certain pairings is a bit ridiculous. These writers are human too, so they are going to show their preferences when writing the game. Even if they try to not do so, I feel it's something inevitable.

Edited December 1, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

Your position: Devs give a middle finger to other people's preferences by preferring a pair.

Therefore you are against their preference with your own pairs.

Which are: Surprise surprise: Your preference.

So you are saying that them choosing a pair is somehow offensive to you.

Which means, your preferences are more important than theirs.

How is that twisting your words?

Because I was never against the devs having preferences. I'm against them PUSHING those preferences a lot in their games. There's a big difference. I don't give a rat's ass if they like pairing X more than pairing Y or pairing Z, it's pandering a lot to pairing X and leaving pairings Y and Z in the dust that I have a problem with.

[shadowofchaos]

And we come back full circle.

How is this important to the experience of the player base in general?

Eliwood and Ninian's story scene wouldn't work if she didn't have feelings for him, even without supports. As all she had was feeling and not logical thought during the significance scene.

Neither would it work if he didn't have some sort of connection with her for him to feel guilty over.

Main characters naturally gravitate to each other when writing a work of fiction.

The writers naturally had a preference for those two paired since the meaning of the scene would be more tragic.

And how would they have preferences without them being in the game?

I am not for or against any pairing in this context. But saying that your freedom to ship is being encroached on by the devs is ridiculous.

The devs have no fault in this situation you're blaming them for.

You are getting worked up over something that doesn't actually affect your ability to play the game or immerse yourself in the story and characters even with your ships.

Edited December 1, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Anacybele]

So it's wrong to see it as the devs basically going "okay, here are your pairing options, but only this particular pairing is the correct one since it's being pushed way more"? That makes no sense whatsoever. And as I said earlier in the thread, some of the fans adopted that mindset too and it's annoying to be told your preferences are wrong.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Anacybele

[Sunwoo]

Hey Rey, you think that people take pairings too seriously? Because I think people take pairings too seriously.

I hear way too many people argue that Hector/Lyn is canon (which I personally don't believe it is), but I've heard some people argue that Lyn/Rath is canon because of their ending. Personally, I don't give a shit which one is canon, even if I like Lyn/Rath best? If developers have a preference, and in the future want to make a certain pairing canon, that's fine with me. It's not like it's going to alter how I play, nor should it. I feel like people who are crying about how the developers' choices are encroaching on their preference are either 1) taking pairings way too seriously, or 2) kind of selfish and can't accept that people who made the game (or other people in general) might actually have a preference.

Another funny thing is when I hear people use "this pairing is canon" as an argument for a pairing that they like, and then turn around and say, "this pairing has no evidence" for another pairing that has just as strong evidence as the first one, but that they don't like. Like saying Hector/Lyn is canon but denying Chrom/Sumia.

So, yeah, pairings are the least important part of FE but they end up causing the biggest issues in the fandom. Don't you think it's kind of like Avatar the Last Airbender?

[Anacybele]

Don't you think it's kind of like Avatar the Last Airbender?

I think it was much worse for Avatar, actually. I heard that the writers of it got hate mail and crap for doing Aang x Katara instead of Zuko x Katara and such. That is just downright wrong, stupid, and insulting. I didn't prefer either of those pairings, but you don't see me throwing around insults to the writers because they KILLED Jet instead of having him get with Katara. I understood that Jet was much more minor than either Aang or Zuko and that Katara had more of a relationship with the former all along. It made the most sense. I might have thought Katara and Jet looked the cutest together, but I won't claim that they made more sense than Aang and Katara.

JK Rowling also suffered a similar fate for what she did with the Harry Potter characters. In this case, I actually support the canon, but it was just as wrong and insulting for HP fans to give her bullcrap about it. And I'm not even a big fan of HP, I just liked Ron and Sirius as characters. xP

And for FE, I would never send IS hate mail or threats just because they didn't do Ike x Elincia. I will forever question why they didn't at least give them a platonic ending, but I won't insult them and crap for it. It was their decision and I can't change that.

Edited December 1, 2016 by Anacybele

[shadowofchaos]

So, yeah, pairings are the least important part of FE but they end up causing the biggest issues in the fandom. Don't you think it's kind of like Avatar the Last Airbender?

I guess it took Boron posting to show that I shouldn't get invested into arguing in a thread about pairings.

Haha. I guess I just won't bother clicking those links. I've already pretty much shown the lack of logic at seeing the dev's choices as "a middle finger" or "slap to the face".

People I meet in real life that have played FE like at the Pokemon Sun and Moon midnight release are so much more chill with their pairings.

Pairings will always be the least important part of any FE with the exception of Genealogy. And even then you get replacement children when you're forced into 2nd Gen anyway.

[Res]

Since I can't resubmit, I'll post reasons in here (if that's okay):

Chrom - Robin; because I'm boring, and it allows female Robin to have two kids.

Lissa - Donnel; they're both young and the supports are sweetish.

Olivia - Henry; oddly sweet is the best descriptor; I love both characters and they work, in a weird way.

Maribelle - Gaius; I love their support conversation.

Sully - Kellam; they're both boring nonentities (my husband would severely disagree, but oh well!)

Sumia - Frederick; because I prefer all her other choices with other people.

Cordelia - Lon'qu; I really like Lon'qu as Severa's father. Otherwise, no preference.

Cherche - no preference; I like Virion for boring story reasons, but I also like Lon'qu for support reasons (I think I probably prefer Lon'qu with Cherche over Cordelia, if it wasn't for my idea of Severa).

Panne - no preference; she has several good supports (refreshing my memory on them and I like Lon'qu, again), but nothing stands out.

Miriel - Ricken; for the mage connection.

Tharja - no preference; the Noire/father supports always make me feel guilt over whomever I pair with Tharja.

Nowi - no preference; I must admit I haven't used her much in game.

[twistedxgrace]

Since I can't resubmit, I'll post reasons in here (if that's okay):

Chrom - Robin; because I'm boring, and it allows female Robin to have two kids.

Lissa - Donnel; they're both young and the supports are sweetish.

Olivia - Henry; oddly sweet is the best descriptor; I love both characters and they work, in a weird way.

Maribelle - Gaius; I love their support conversation.

Sully - Kellam; they're both boring nonentities (my husband would severely disagree, but oh well!)

Sumia - Frederick; because I prefer all her other choices with other people.

Cordelia - Lon'qu; I really like Lon'qu as Severa's father. Otherwise, no preference.

Cherche - no preference; I like Virion for boring story reasons, but I also like Lon'qu for support reasons (I think I probably prefer Lon'qu with Cherche over Cordelia, if it wasn't for my idea of Severa).

Panne - no preference; she has several good supports (refreshing my memory on them and I like Lon'qu, again), but nothing stands out.

Miriel - Ricken; for the mage connection.

Tharja - no preference; the Noire/father supports always make me feel guilt over whomever I pair with Tharja.

Nowi - no preference; I must admit I haven't used her much in game.

I stopped resubmissions because I wanted it to make it easier for others to see the results. Thank you for your contribution! I love your Tumblr!

[Augestein]

As for Augustein's example with Zidane. There's a problem with that in FE.

People die when they are killed.

Marth and Caeda have the Artemis' Curse ending. Fire Emblem cannot reap the fixed pairing benefits unless they are immune to permadeath via plot armor.

It actually isn't a problem here, and your example is another example that demonstrates the usefulness of canon pairings. The fixed pairings can still be reaped even with the fact that people can die. Marth and Caeda having the Artemis' Curse ending can only happen because they are a canon pairing. As opposed to Caeda dying and it's only one of the potential women Marth could have wed, and the player may not have even been trying to pair Marth with Caeda when she died, or anyone else for that matter. You can't do stuff like this without canon pairings. I'm not saying that I'm pushing for canon pairings, but in this case, it's a developer / design choice of giving the player choices, and then not respecting the player's choices.

And even worse is that plot armor has only gotten more ridiculous overall in terms of the series.

maybe I'm missing something here, but what is wrong with writers being preferential? ultimately it's their story, the devs are already pandering enough to the player by letting them have the ultimate say in pairings. the idea that they have to all be equally ambiguous seems like an artificial restraint to put on whoever is actually writing the story, creating the characters, etc. that a player might be offended because they have different preferences doesn't seem like a good enough reason here

For me, it's because it's ultimately a waste of time to present the players with options that change the story/plot, and then renege on them or even say "yeah, sure, there's these two options, but you should really choose A." Like, I'd rather have something that has 100% effort put into it than have something that's half baked because they have to keep remembering that some players might have chosen that one option that the writer doesn't particularly care about. Or even worse, and this is especially true for pairing in games, where the individual characters all gain hive mind and only have unique vernacular for the same line which essentially leads to the characters all being identical after the branching point-- see Awakening wives for Chrom. It also has the added effect of making all other potential ships solidified as never doing anything for the rest of the plot because they *might* have been the pair. Like imagine if Sumia WAS Chrom's canonical wife instead of a "preference." Then Sumia could have continued to have a role in the plot outside of Chapter 11.

[shadowofchaos]

I concede the point that writing quality would be better, yes.

Then imagine all the rage that would have resulted from not being able to marry him.

There is a vocal minority for Cordelia. I will agree that your point about the writing would be better. However Ana's point about it being the cause of all the ragey shippers is not valid.

Canon pairings make everything easier, yes. I agree with that. But would thexpect fan base be fine with that?

I mean look at Ana. Ike and Elincia are canonically not a pairing at the end of Radiant Dawn and she still argues in places in the forum that it would be in character for her to leave Crimea and it should be changed if an HD remake ever comes.

It will change absolutely nothing for her "shipping equality" whether or not the devs have preferential pairings or canon pairings. They will find something to complain about.

Edited December 1, 2016 by shadowofchaos

[Augestein]

I concede the point that writing quality would be better, yes.

Then imagine all the rage that would have resulted from not being able to marry him.

There is a vocal minority for Cordelia. I will agree that your point about the writing would be better. However Ana's point about it being the cause of all the ragey shippers is not valid.

Canon pairings make everything easier, yes. I agree with that. But would thexpect fan base be fine with that?

I mean look at Ana. Ike and Elincia are canonically not a pairing at the end of Radiant Dawn and she still argues in places in the forum that it would be in character for her to leave Crimea and it should be changed if an HD remake ever comes.

It will change absolutely nothing for her "shipping equality" whether or not the devs have preferential pairings or canon pairings. They will find something to complain about.

And I definitely can't refute the ire of crazed shippers about not being able to marry Chrom or even Sumia for that matter. I can't honestly say it wouldn't be there. I'd be a liar if I said otherwise.

I think the fanbase as of now wouldn't be fine with that, but the fanbase in the past probably would have been. It's some of the reason I actually don't want to see something like Fire Emblem 7 made and see "Mark" become a full character because I know what'd happen from there.

Yeah... Point taken.