So Kris has the capability to steal Draug's girl

[Jagen]

I noticed that the my unit(Kris), has the capability of getting with norne... despite the fact she's already with Draug. For those that don't know, during the events of Shadow Dragon, while it was never said directly in the actual games, Draug and Norne were romantically together. This was implied by the fact that they join your group together to help Marth escape from Altea at the beginning of the game, and later confirmed in the Fire Emblem 20th anniversary encyclopedia.

Now, I'm almost positive this is an oversight by the creators as the relationship is never brought up directly in game, but dang. Poor Draug.

The support conversations between Norne and Kris are especially difficult to watch if you keep in mind her and Draug's relationship. "Kris, You're all I've been thinking about since I first met you when we were children. You're what kept me going. After this war is over, you should come live with me."

[eclipse]

Is the 20th anniversary encyclopedia something different from the art book?

[TheEnd]

Well, Camus/Nyna and Abel/Est are in this game too, so...

[Enaluxeme]

Everything in that game revolves around MU. They were trying so hard to make it feel like Kris is you and everyone appreciates him/her, thus you. In the end Kris is a gargantuan Mary Sue that makes half the players hate him/her.

[MCProductions]

Ugh, Kris, as a guy who usually either likes or at least is indifferent to FE avatars, Kris is where I draw the line. Give Robin and Corrin credit, at least they didn't fucking change canon just so the player could get worshiped more. It's because of Kris that despite FE3 being one of my favorite FE plots, even if it's still shoddlily written, FE12 is one of my least favorites. Still, poor Draug all the same.

[Augestein]

You know what? With the way people talk about this game, I need to actually see the curse that is Kris with my own eyes. I had the game at one point and misplaced it. It's time to find it and play through it.

[Radiant head]

i didn't really care about chris one way or another, including negatively. he was just kind of there. maybe it's because i didn't play the original games that were supposedly changed.

was more offended by corrin, who fills the role of a lord like marth/chrom as well and badly at that.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Radiant head

[MCProductions]

i didn't really care about chris one way or another, including negatively. he was just kind of there. maybe it's because i didn't play the original games that were supposedly changed.

was more offended by corrin, who fills the role of a lord like marth/chrom as well and badly at that.

It's funny, I was the same way for the longest time, but about Robin because I played FE12 pre Fates, but then my grandparents bought me a copy of FE3 SNES for my birthday, without knowing it was an english translated bootleg, so I played thru it. That's when my hostility towards Kris was born.

[sirmola]

You know what? With the way people talk about this game, I need to actually see the curse that is Kris with my own eyes. I had the game at one point and misplaced it. It's time to find it and play through it.

I should note that the actual gameplay is pretty good IMO. Gameplay wise, It's shadow dragon with all the kinks ironed out. FYI, the easiest setting is REALLY easy, while the harder settings essetulay require you to one turn the final chapter in order to not die.

[Radiant head]

yeah the maps on this game rule.

Edited December 12, 2016 by Radiant head

[Augestein]

I should note that the actual gameplay is pretty good IMO. Gameplay wise, It's shadow dragon with all the kinks ironed out. FYI, the easiest setting is REALLY easy, while the harder settings essetulay require you to one turn the final chapter in order to not die.

Hmm... I think I only got to like Chapter 1, so maybe I'll just try to setup a recording for the adventures. Sounds like it could be spiffy.

[TheEnd]

Ugh, Kris, as a guy who usually either likes or at least is indifferent to FE avatars, Kris is where I draw the line. Give Robin and Corrin credit, at least they didn't fucking change canon

The canon change didn't really bother me, though, because I find its ingame explanation satisfying enough.

[spoiler=ending]Marth:

Thank you, Chris. For protecting and supporting me. No amount of thanks would be enough. But, among the people, your deeds are being told as things I've done alone... That just will not do. Once we return to the castle, I'll...

Chris:

If you allow me, sire... I have no need for a name. I don't want stories to be told of me.

Marth:

Chris...?

Chris:

Sire. With this war now over, a hero will be needed. A hero called Prince Marth. There are still hostilities between people who have fought for so long. Those won't disappear easily. In order to have everyone's agreement, a king everyone recognizes-- a godlike hero is needed. And that hero must be you, sire, and you alone.

Thus, FE12 is supposed to depict how the war really happened, while FE3 would be the official version of the events. Just like in real life, the Hero King Marth didn't go down in history as a massive badass because he was one - but rather, because some of his subordinates' accomplishments were recorded as his own.

Or you could read it as the work of a lunatic bard whose cousin was a awesome dude who totally won Marth's war for him, I don't know.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact MU is still a Mary Sue.

Edited December 13, 2016 by TheEnd

[Dismissed]

Corrin is more of a Mary Sue than Kris.

Anyway, the explanation in-game justifies rewriting canon, but a good side of FE12 was that there is less fanservice than Fates or even Awakening. It was a much simpler time when there was no S-Support, Stupid Babyrealms and Irrelevant Kids (Fates I'm looking at you), Lords and Thieves did not promote and so on.

[Jagen]

The canon change didn't really bother me, though, because I find its ingame explanation satisfying enough.

[spoiler=ending]Marth:

Thank you, Chris. For protecting and supporting me. No amount of thanks would be enough. But, among the people, your deeds are being told as things I've done alone... That just will not do. Once we return to the castle, I'll...

Chris:

If you allow me, sire... I have no need for a name. I don't want stories to be told of me.

Marth:

Chris...?

Chris:

Sire. With this war now over, a hero will be needed. A hero called Prince Marth. There are still hostilities between people who have fought for so long. Those won't disappear easily. In order to have everyone's agreement, a king everyone recognizes-- a godlike hero is needed. And that hero must be you, sire, and you alone.

Thus, FE12 is supposed to depict how the war really happened, while FE3 would be the official version of the events. Just like in real life, the Hero King Marth didn't go down in history as a massive badass because he was one - but rather, because some of his subordinates' accomplishments were recorded as his own.

Or you could read it as the work of a lunatic bard whose cousin was a awesome dude who totally won Marth's war for him, I don't know.

Of course, that doesn't change the fact MU is still a Mary Sue.

I don't think that's all he was referring to when MCPugi referred to changing canon. A lot of the dialogue was either altered or outright taken away in order to make the my unit shine. Many of the lines that were originally said by Marth in fe3 were actually taken away from him, and given to Kris to give him more dialogue. He also interrupts a lot of scenes like the scene with Marth and Jagen talking to Jiol at the end of chapter 2. Then there's that weird scene where everyone is escaping on a boat to go to Khadein, Kris is all, "I'll stay back to defend you my lord." Marth is begging for Kris to come back, and Jagen is telling Marth that Kris can handle it. Which is all meaningless as Kris just shows right back up in the next chapter. Just weird.

And the thing that angers me most of all, is in chapter 14, where they get to the ice dragon's temple. In the original FE3, just before the start of the chapter, we get a pretty interesting and beautiful scene of Jagen and marth talking about the story of founding of Akaneia and Artemis' curse. This scene is completely removed from the chapter. Not even replaced with anything. Just outright removed. It was instead, put in the "Talk" menu in the preparations screen and changed to where it was Jagen telling the story to Kris instead of Marth.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Jagen

[MCProductions]

I don't think that's all he was referring to when MCPugi referred to changing canon. A lot of the dialogue was either altered or outright taken away in order to make the my unit shine. Many of the lines that were originally said by Marth in fe3 were actually taken away from him, and given to Kris to give him more dialogue. He also interrupts a lot of scenes like the scene with Marth and Jagen talking to Jiol at the end of chapter 2. Then there's that weird scene where everyone is escaping on a boat to go to Khadein, Kris is all, "I'll stay back to defend you my lord." Marth is begging for Kris to come back, and Jagen is telling Marth that Kris can handle it. Which is all meaningless as Kris just shows right back up in the next chapter. Just weird.

And the thing that angers me most of all, is in chapter 14, where they get to the ice dragon's temple. In the original FE3, just before the start of the chapter, we get a pretty interesting and beautiful scene of Jagen and marth talking about the story of founding of Akaneia and Artemis' curse. This scene is completely removed from the chapter. Not even replaced with anything. Just outright removed. It was instead, put in the "Talk" menu in the preparations screen and changed to where it was Jagen telling the story to Kris instead of Marth.

All of this pretty much, Marth also just has a completely different demeanor in 12 than he did in 3, and because of this demeanor and Kris doing so much stuff Marth did originally, Marth never grows as a character in FE12 when he DOES in FE3, and that bothers me so much.

[eclipse]

I don't think that's all he was referring to when MCPugi referred to changing canon. A lot of the dialogue was either altered or outright taken away in order to make the my unit shine. Many of the lines that were originally said by Marth in fe3 were actually taken away from him, and given to Kris to give him more dialogue. He also interrupts a lot of scenes like the scene with Marth and Jagen talking to Jiol at the end of chapter 2. Then there's that weird scene where everyone is escaping on a boat to go to Khadein, Kris is all, "I'll stay back to defend you my lord." Marth is begging for Kris to come back, and Jagen is telling Marth that Kris can handle it. Which is all meaningless as Kris just shows right back up in the next chapter. Just weird.

And the thing that angers me most of all, is in chapter 14, where they get to the ice dragon's temple. In the original FE3, just before the start of the chapter, we get a pretty interesting and beautiful scene of Jagen and marth talking about the story of founding of Akaneia and Artemis' curse. This scene is completely removed from the chapter. Not even replaced with anything. Just outright removed. It was instead, put in the "Talk" menu in the preparations screen and changed to where it was Jagen telling the story to Kris instead of Marth.

I asked a question right after your opening post. I'd really like for you to answer it.

[Jagen]

Oh, yes it is. Sorry for the late response. The 20th anniversary encyclopedia is different from the artbook. The two books are, the Fire Emblem Memorial art book, and Fire Emblem 20th Anniversary encyclopedia, with interviews with the people who worked on the game. The relationship between Draug and Norne is brought up in the 20th encyclopedia.

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Emblem_20th_Anniversary_Encyclopedia

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Emblem_Memorial_Book_Archanea_Chronicle

Edited December 22, 2016 by Jagen

[eclipse]

Oh, yes it is. Sorry for the late response. The 20th anniversary encyclopedia is different from the artbook. The two books are, the Fire Emblem Memorial art book, and Fire Emblem 20th Anniversary encyclopedia, with interviews with the people who worked on the game. The relationship between Draug and Norne is brought up in the 20th encyclopedia.

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Emblem_20th_Anniversary_Encyclopedia

http://fireemblem.wikia.com/wiki/Fire_Emblem_Memorial_Book_Archanea_Chronicle

Thanks. I don't have the money for the encyclopedia, but it sounds like something right up my alley. I'd like to see the actual passage myself, along with a LOT of other things.

[Light Strategist]

The canon change didn't really bother me, though, because I find its ingame explanation satisfying enough.

[spoiler=ending]Marth:

Thank you, Chris. For protecting and supporting me. No amount of thanks would be enough. But, among the people, your deeds are being told as things I've done alone... That just will not do. Once we return to the castle, I'll...

Chris:

If you allow me, sire... I have no need for a name. I don't want stories to be told of me.

Marth:

Chris...?

Chris:

Sire. With this war now over, a hero will be needed. A hero called Prince Marth. There are still hostilities between people who have fought for so long. Those won't disappear easily. In order to have everyone's agreement, a king everyone recognizes-- a godlike hero is needed. And that hero must be you, sire, and you alone.

Thus, FE12 is supposed to depict how the war really happened, while FE3 would be the official version of the events. Just like in real life, the Hero King Marth didn't go down in history as a massive badass because he was one - but rather, because some of his subordinates' accomplishments were recorded as his own.

Or you could read it as the work of a lunatic bard whose cousin was a awesome dude who totally won Marth's war for him, I don't know.

I basically see FE12 this way because that's actually how I assume, it was intended to be. Which reminds that I really need to finish Shadow Dragon and this...

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

-equips Iote's Shield because I know I'm going to get shot to hell for this-

I actually vastly prefer Marth's character in FE12 to FE3B2.

Yes, I mean that. Yes, it could have been done better and there IS a few things in FE12 I don't agree with but honestly with FE12 the good enormously outweighs the bad with the plot changes (I'm looking directly at probably the best set of Gaiden Chapters in the series, an extreme change of pace from 11 which gave us the worst set)

The characterization of Marth as someone who retains their ideals despite the trials they go through actually fits in pretty well with a recurring underlying theme of the series outside of Tellius and FE7, and I find it clever in a way that they make Marth the epitome of a FE Completionist (Someone who refuses to let any unit die). The added dialogue concerning Marth (Prologue in particular) I actually find a decent enough tradeoff for the morsels they threw to MU, with maybe the exception of chapter 14's intro. They make it pretty clear Marth is cut from the "No man gets left behind" mindset that, admit it, most people generally play FE with (aside from players specifically challenging themselves, usually on repeat runs or after having played a fair number of games in the series) and that makes Marth, alongside Roy and- again going to be fucking shot for this- MU14, my favorite lords in the series (followed closely by the FE7 trio, Sileph, and MU13) Edit: This mentality also makes me think Marth always wanted to avoid another situation like when he left Frey behind.

I feel like they could've just given MU some entirely new lines, but in the end I don't actually think it's as crippling to Marth as people make it out to be aside from Chapter 14's intro. The more memorable moments (At least in my opinion) like Marth and Hardin's confrontation in Chapter 20 and Marth's conversation to Lorenz before he kills himself, are preserved or at the minimum MU just spouts nonsense that doesn't really take away from what Marth's saying or his tone. Honestly, I barely even NOTICE MU playing through FE12, the only time I feel MU is truly even relevant is in the Prologue and Gaiden Chapters, and even then the Gaiden chapters feel more like Katarina's story to me.

For argument's sake let's just say Intsys went out to actively ruin Marth's character; the fact he's still the highlight of FE12 to me and is even preferable to some over FE3B2 should speak volumes as to how intact his character remains and how irrelevant MU12 is to the main chapters in spite of their efforts.

Edited December 31, 2016 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Light Strategist]

-equips Iote's Shield because I know I'm going to get shot to hell for this-

I actually vastly prefer Marth's character in FE12 to FE3B2.

Yes, I mean that. Yes, it could have been done better and there IS a few things in FE12 I don't agree with but honestly with FE12 the good enormously outweighs the bad with the plot changes (I'm looking directly at probably the best set of Gaiden Chapters in the series, an extreme change of pace from 11 which gave us the worst set)

The characterization of Marth as someone who retains their ideals despite the trials they go through actually fits in pretty well with a recurring underlying theme of the series outside of Tellius and FE7, and I find it clever in a way that they make Marth the epitome of a FE Completionist (Someone who refuses to let any unit die). The added dialogue concerning Marth (Prologue in particular) I actually find a decent enough tradeoff for the morsels they threw to MU, with maybe the exception of chapter 14's intro. They make it pretty clear Marth is cut from the "No man gets left behind" mindset that, admit it, most people generally play FE with (aside from players specifically challenging themselves, usually on repeat runs or after having played a fair number of games in the series) and that makes Marth, alongside Roy and- again going to be fucking shot for this- MU14, my favorite lords in the series (followed closely by the FE7 trio, Sileph, and MU13) Edit: This mentality also makes me think Marth always wanted to avoid another situation like when he left Frey behind.

I feel like they could've just given MU some entirely new lines, but in the end I don't actually think it's as crippling to Marth as people make it out to be aside from Chapter 14's intro. The more memorable moments (At least in my opinion) like Marth and Hardin's confrontation in Chapter 20 and Marth's conversation to Lorenz before he kills himself, are preserved or at the minimum MU just spouts nonsense that doesn't really take away from what Marth's saying or his tone. Honestly, I barely even NOTICE MU playing through FE12, the only time I feel MU is truly even relevant is in the Prologue and Gaiden Chapters, and even then the Gaiden chapters feel more like Katarina's story to me.

For argument's sake let's just say Intsys went out to actively ruin Marth's character; the fact he's still the highlight of FE12 to me and is even preferable to some over FE3B2 should speak volumes as to how intact his character remains and how irrelevant MU12 is to the main chapters in spite of their efforts.

This makes me feel like you're one of a few people that it seems the game was made to cater to. Not trying to disrespect anyone with that statement before I get feathered for it. It's a kind of feeling that's difficult to describe well but that you understand it in a way few others can, right?

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

This makes me feel like you're one of a few people that it seems the game was made to cater to. Not trying to disrespect anyone with that statement before I get feathered for it. It's a kind of feeling that's difficult to describe well but that you understand it in a way few others can, right?

It's more that my reaction to MU12 is utter indifference as opposed to the scathing and foaming-at-the-mouth hatred he/she gets. I genuinely prefer Marth in FE12 because I think the additions to his character are well worth the few things that were removed because the important and defining moments of Marth's character in this game are either left entirely untouched or handled in such a way the avatar just spouts some nonsense and doesn't get in the way of Marth's shining moments, even if said nonsense was spouted by Marth in FE3B2. MU12 just feels like a mostly harmless non-character to me, someone who really is more of a blank chalkboard for the units like Malice and Dice to bounce words off of since no one else likes them they don't have connections to anyone in particular, and they wouldn't have characterization otherwise. I see MU12 more in service of characters like Malice and Dice rather than in disservice to Marth, who still stands on his own two feet and honestly I prefer as a character much more due to new dialogue in the game concerning him (Marth's relationship with Katarina alone makes me admire him as a person much more than anything he did in FE3B2 due to how sympathetic and merciful a person it shows him to be).

In other words, FE12 isn't nearly as unspeakable and blasphamous towards Marth as people make it out to be for me personally, they-at worst- just slightly shift the focus to other things with Marth and the good additions to Marth's character far outweigh the minor things taken from him which, ultimately, amount to very little because the major interactions he has are either preserved or the avatar does essensially fuck all in the grand scheme of things when it happens. So MU12 doesn't bother me on account of being mostly a non character and more a device to flesh out units like Malice or Etzel.

As for the main topic of this, yea, I don't think they really considered Draug to be with Norne in FE11, canonically, since no matter what, even if the Gaiden chapters are somehow canon without being an altered version of events (which doesn't quite seem the case here due to a few weird things in FE12 and FE13), Frey and Norne both get the boot in Prologue 4 and either leave or don't join Marth. Norne is still alluded to by the village in Prologue 4, but it's really important to note Gordin starts with her bow in anything other than normal (And yes, it is possible to get Gaiden chapters on hard and above) so I really, really don't think Intsys/Nintendo considered her to have been in Marth's army. Yea, she "aided" Marth in the War of Shadows in FE12 but that can mean just about anything considering they also specify she was "Just a villager". Then again all the Gaiden characters are weird with how this works out, so idk for sure in the end.

Edit: in fact, I thought about it for a while and let's flip the tables here. Marth is literally a fucking GOD to MU14, almost irrationally so. At the same time, there's not really enough of substance changed about Marth in the remake to suggest its undeserved by any means- Marth still stands up to Lang , challenges Hardin, and now he has the added perk of having potentially defeated Erimiya as well now. Not to mention everything he did in FE11 on top of that, what with the saving the entire world... The etymology of the default name, Kris, even means once you dig through the etymology "close to Christ". Marth is LITERALLY JESUS according to the default name...

Edited January 2, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems