FE10 Tierlist 2017

[Quintessence]

Uhh, the discussion is not about Olivia but rather the use of Herons and Dancers as a whole. They are units whose sole purpose is to serve as utility or boon/support unit. They are unable to attack (most) and are defenseless (most), so they shouldn't be put under enemy range.

In general I have a question, who cares about dancer/heron growths and bases, experience and level? I can understand lv and exp being important in the case of Herons, Olivia and Azura because they get skills that further improve their utility (although the Herons extra skills are kinda useless), but growths and bases? Come on, that's the most irrelevant aspect of them unless you are forced to use them as combat units.

[Shadow Mir]

Uhh, the discussion is not about Olivia but rather the use of Herons and Dancers as a whole. They are units whose sole purpose is to serve as utility or boon/support unit. They are unable to attack (most) and are defenseless (most), so they shouldn't be put under enemy range.

In general I have a question, who cares about dancer/heron growths and bases, experience and level? I can understand lv and exp being important in the case of Herons, Olivia and Azura because they get skills that further improve their utility (although the Herons extra skills are kinda useless), but growths and bases? Come on, that's the most irrelevant aspect of them unless you are forced to use them as combat units.

I understand, but Ana brought up Olivia being able to fight as if it changed anything, which it doesn't when she is still a support unit first and foremost. Also, I agree with Augestein that it's nice to have a dancer that doesn't instantly die if they're ever targeted. Edited January 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Radiant head]

the main perk for olivia is that she can pair-up to stay safe, and then learn stuff like pass, but in the dancer class she's most definitely not suited to combat.

[Augestein]

Uhh, the discussion is not about Olivia but rather the use of Herons and Dancers as a whole. They are units whose sole purpose is to serve as utility or boon/support unit. They are unable to attack (most) and are defenseless (most), so they shouldn't be put under enemy range.

In general I have a question, who cares about dancer/heron growths and bases, experience and level? I can understand lv and exp being important in the case of Herons, Olivia and Azura because they get skills that further improve their utility (although the Herons extra skills are kinda useless), but growths and bases? Come on, that's the most irrelevant aspect of them unless you are forced to use them as combat units.

I care on the account that some of them like Ninian actually gets decent defense, res, speed and luck. This puts them in a way where you have a unit that can refresh other units and if you make a mistake, you don't have to start over. I'm not perfect, so I like it when a unit has something resembling durability and doesn't instantly die because you had a slight lapse in focus. And the heron skills can be useful. Bliss makes it to where the biorhythm goes to best, which results in more evade and hit (more emphasis on evasion) and +10% skill activation. That's pretty nice. It also has the added effect of starting the counter over if you finish a chapter with it. And Recovery certainly isn't a bad move either. Recover to full hp and cure status effects? Nice. The issue is that there's such a huge onslaught of units that can heal the move itself doesn't need to be used, and in most cases, you could probably refresh a healer, but really, having a utility unit like that isn't bad. Sorrow is about the only move they have that sucks, and that's primarily because Bliss exists and Sorrow doesn't have range.

[Shadow Mir]

the main perk for olivia is that she can pair-up to stay safe, and then learn stuff like pass, but in the dancer class she's most definitely not suited to combat.

Maybe, but that doesn't really change the part where she might be a liability for some maps (See: the aforementioned Walhart map, as well as chapter 21).

[Quintessence]

I care on the account that some of them like Ninian actually gets decent defense, res, speed and luck. This puts them in a way where you have a unit that can refresh other units and if you make a mistake, you don't have to start over. I'm not perfect, so I like it when a unit has something resembling durability and doesn't instantly die because you had a slight lapse in focus. And the heron skills can be useful. Bliss makes it to where the biorhythm goes to best, which results in more evade and hit (more emphasis on evasion) and +10% skill activation. That's pretty nice. It also has the added effect of starting the counter over if you finish a chapter with it. And Recovery certainly isn't a bad move either. Recover to full hp and cure status effects? Nice. The issue is that there's such a huge onslaught of units that can heal the move itself doesn't need to be used, and in most cases, you could probably refresh a healer, but really, having a utility unit like that isn't bad. Sorrow is about the only move they have that sucks, and that's primarily because Bliss exists and Sorrow doesn't have range.

These extra skills are certainly helpful in given cases but I label them next to useless since the heron is mostly refreshing rather than buffing units because at the point they're getting such skills, one is at 4-E, and if you waste a turn on them, you're running a huge risk of starting over because the Enemy Phase is highly punishing with the high enemy density.

Bulky dancers are a nice thing since it alleviates the issue of having to care of them and is one headache less, but their point is just using them and that's it.

[eclipse]

HEY. I expect to see Radiant Dawn discussion in here, not a whole bunch of other games.

I wouldn't worry too much about outlier scores, since the distribution for most of the characters seems pretty even. In other words, it's NOT worth arguing about.

[Quintessence]

outliers compensate themeselves, whenever you see a 1, you get to see a 10, or a 0.5 with a 6

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Since the poll was made public, I'll accept each vote.

Some people just have a different opinion and understanding of the game.

This just must be accepted.

It's still somewhat a public competiton and not a made tierlist by myself which has to be argued.

(At first I was thinking to bring up my own tierlist, but this would cause lots of arguing... and honestly I'm not that good in that. :P)

[Augestein]

These extra skills are certainly helpful in given cases but I label them next to useless since the heron is mostly refreshing rather than buffing units because at the point they're getting such skills, one is at 4-E, and if you waste a turn on them, you're running a huge risk of starting over because the Enemy Phase is highly punishing with the high enemy density.

Bulky dancers are a nice thing since it alleviates the issue of having to care of them and is one headache less, but their point is just using them and that's it.

Yeah, I can agree with Recovery. If they were all learned at the start, it probably would have been better. Honestly, it would have been interesting to have different skills on the herons altogether. As it stands, I find that Reyson and Rafiel are leagues ahead of Leanne because of it.

I get that. But it's just that having a bulky dancer is something that is nice. It's why even though I think Rafiel functions better, I still say Reyson is just as equal for durability. If you get hit by the massive AoE, Reyson is just durable enough to not die, unlike Rafiel. It's a serious thing to take into consideration when refreshing.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Also the outliers made Zihark > Mia (what I find very surprising), Lyre >1, and Reyson < Ike + Titania.

I'll take it, even if some people like me will disagree with that.
Anyways there's still one more day to vote, so maybe a little bit will change.


Also it's shown that 21 people casted votes, but only 20 voted in total in each poll. Odd...

All of this is why Olivia was such a welcome thing in Awakening to me. She refreshes and can fight and defend herself! She still doesn't have much defense, but at least she can fight and not get killed so easily! And I marry her to Chrom.

Olivia can do like five damage or something in the chapter she joins - wow!
Otherwise she shares the same fate with the herons: She'll get onerounded and oneshotted by everyone as well.
(tbf transformed Reyson won't get doubled by several enemies and has a high evasion)


Rafiel and Reyson gives you four more kills in one turn possibly.
Also no one forces you to place a heron is the attack range of an enemy.


Dancers don't exist to be good in combat. Just keep that in mind once for all!

Yeah, I can agree with Recovery. If they were all learned at the start, it probably would have been better. Honestly, it would have been interesting to have different skills on the herons altogether. As it stands, I find that Reyson and Rafiel are leagues ahead of Leanne because of it.

I get that. But it's just that having a bulky dancer is something that is nice. It's why even though I think Rafiel functions better, I still say Reyson is just as equal for durability. If you get hit by the massive AoE, Reyson is just durable enough to not die, unlike Rafiel. It's a serious thing to take into consideration when refreshing.

stats: Reyson
mobility: Reyson because of being able to fly and canto
effectiveness: Rafiel, because he's so appreciated in 1-E and endgame. In endgame you need Rafiel to defeat the two long range magic and sleep stave users in the first turn. Same goes for beating Lehran and Ashera in the first turn. Only in E-2 it doesn't really matter since you can defeat Levail and BK without a heron. Just need a sage with 28 speed and meteor / blizzard and Ike with maxed stregth, >=34 speed and hammer.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[Samias]

Yeah, I can agree with Recovery. If they were all learned at the start, it probably would have been better. Honestly, it would have been interesting to have different skills on the herons altogether. As it stands, I find that Reyson and Rafiel are leagues ahead of Leanne because of it.

I get that. But it's just that having a bulky dancer is something that is nice. It's why even though I think Rafiel functions better, I still say Reyson is just as equal for durability. If you get hit by the massive AoE, Reyson is just durable enough to not die, unlike Rafiel. It's a serious thing to take into consideration when refreshing.

To add to this, not only is Reyson bulkier than his siblings and more likely to survive one hit, he has a huge movement advantage and canto that allows himself to position himself in ways the other can't. For any map you cannot finish in one turn, Reyson's advantages will surmount Rafiel's quite quickly.

Rafiel is so good at the endgame chapters is because those chapters are small, later on full of enemies who cannot to target the herons anyway (Spirits literally cannot target the herons at all, and none of the bosses throughout the tower ever will unless they are using their map-wide AoE), and are ideally finished in 1-2 turns. That said if you were doing a low tier run of RD or just poorly optimized your endgame team somehow despite gods like Caneighis being thrown your way, that means Reyson could be a better choice for endgame since that's the only time you'll see Ashera start throwing out Judgments. At any rate your herons are basically 10/10 units in the tower who are practically invincible and are extremely necessary to squeeze the best out of your elite units, which is already so much more than some units are doing.

Giving any heron a score worse than Lyre, a combat-only unit who literally hits a large number of enemies in HM on her joining chapter for 0-2 damage, who cannot even 1RKO the weakest sages without a crit, is frankly an insult. Lyre isn't even remotely approaching "good" in any lower difficulties either because she has to transform to perform that badly. Meanwhile a heron can always be doing something useful every turn, transformed or not. Refreshing your unit who can 1RKO things in your stead is a hell of a lot better than thrusting yourself at an enemy who you literally cannot defeat.

[ping]

Also it's shown that 21 people casted votes, but only 20 voted in total in each poll. Odd...

Pure speculation on my part, but maybe someone cast a vote and then deleted it?

Also the outliers made Zihark > Mia (what I find very surprising), Lyre >1, and Reyson < Ike + Titania.

Well, I don't find the bolded part wrong (I gave Zihark an 8 and Mia a 7). Zihark's relative worth when joining the DB is just way higher than Mia's in the GM chapters. And although it's a really minor thing, Zihark's caps are slightly better distributed than Mia's. At least I value +5 HP and +1 Str higher than the +5 Avoid Mia gets through her higher Luck cap. Mia's growth rates may be better, but both of them make very good use of BEXP, so that doesn't matter too much.

And is it really that surprising that Reyson has a smaller score than Ike and Titania combined? :p Sorry, small fit of Klugscheißeritis. ;) Personally, I think Reyson is about as valuable as Ike and Titania. I haven't calculated how big the gap between them will be, but as long as they're about equal, I'm fine with any ranking order between them.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

Zihark's role in the DB is very important in hard mode, yes, but Mia is still the easiest to rise and her growthrates are preferable as well.

Even the difference of almost two points between Edward and the mentioned two kinda bothers me. Some people don't give him as many credits as he actually deserves in HM.

Zihark's higher strength cap of one doesn't really change anything for me since it's just only one point.

Only speed really counts for me. 34 (or 31 in Sanaki's case) is the magic number. That's why Jill > Haar in endgame for me.

[Shadow Mir]

Zihark's role in the DB is very important in hard mode, yes, but Mia is still the easiest to rise and her growthrates are preferable as well.

Even the difference of almost two points between Edward and the mentioned two kinda bothers me. Some people don't give him as many credits as he actually deserves in HM.

Zihark's higher strength cap of one doesn't really change anything for me since it's just only one point.

Only speed really counts for me. 34 (or 31 in Sanaki's case) is the magic number. That's why Jill > Haar in endgame for me.

The issue is, Edward takes a lot of TLC and babying to get anywhere, but the investment doesn't really pay off in any notable way.

I'm wondering, how would Lyre's score have been without the outlier?

Edited January 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

The issue is, Edward takes a lot of TLC and babying to get anywhere, but the investment doesn't really pay off in any notable way.

I'm wondering, how would Lyre's score have been without the outlier?

I normally give the most of the kills in 1-P - 1-2 to give him some levels.

Then he has usually the required speed to double, and later with Leonardo's support he might even be able to oneround soldiers and fighters.

That's why I would rank him even higher than Nolan in part 1.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0By3VdhdU6OlxclplZ1M1RmNWS1k

Without the outlier, she'd have an average of 0.89.

Also you could calculate it for yourself. It's not too hard. It's still basic math.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Eleanor Hume

[eclipse]

Also the outliers made Zihark > Mia (what I find very surprising), Lyre >1, and Reyson < Ike + Titania.

Also it's shown that 21 people casted votes, but only 20 voted in total in each poll. Odd...

I rated Zihark a lot higher than Mia, because I feel that of the two, he's a lot easier to use.

If you want to clear up the mystery of WTF happened in the poll, you can collect the names of every single person who voted, and see if they voted for everyone. Or something.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I see.

I usually have problems to give Zihark enough levels.

At the end of part 3 he mainly is ~ level 10 while Mia's promoted already.

I normally power level up Jill in part 3, so that's why Zihark often tends to fall behind.

[Amiratasiru]

I don't know what this stuff about Kyza and Lyre having human-tier growths is, but even if it were true, which it isn't, with their leveling speed, they'd still take boatloads of effort to make usable. Also, Olivi grass is pretty expensive... And I ain't seeing what's with that comment about Ranulf needing a huge amount of effort to attain SS strike while Volug won't.

Alright, it's a bit of an overstatement with Kyza and Lyre's growths, but they're noticeably better than other laguz growths. For example, when I most recently used Lyre she was outdoing Ranulf by the time they were both level 32-33 save for her HP. Laguz are hard to grow in RD but not impossible if you're willing to feed them kills as humans or just give them paragon. I've never really desperately needed it on anyone in particular so I usually throw it on a laguz. As for Volug, he has the half-transformation which allows him to attack more frequently. With his almost guaranteed HP and luck on every level up he can easily turn into a formidable wall and slowly build his strike up, whereas Ranulf will always be forced to either spam olivi grass or to run away after a couple of fights. I get the feeling I have pretty different feelings on Fire Emblem characters in general so I understand if you think otherwise.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Rhayader

[Shadow Mir]

Alright, it's a bit of an overstatement with Kyza and Lyre's growths, but they're noticeably better than other laguz growths. For example, when I most recently used Lyre she was outdoing Ranulf by the time they were both level 32-33 save for her HP. Laguz are hard to grow in RD but not impossible if you're willing to feed them kills as humans or just give them paragon. I've never really desperately needed it on anyone in particular so I usually throw it on a laguz. As for Volug, he has the half-transformation which allows him to attack more frequently. With his almost guaranteed HP and luck on every level up he can easily turn into a formidable wall and slowly build his strike up, whereas Ranulf will always be forced to either spam olivi grass or to run away after a couple of fights. I get the feeling I have pretty different feelings on Fire Emblem characters in general so I understand if you think otherwise.

That doesn't prove much of anything about Lyre - you simply got lucky. Also, Kyza doesn't have any growths over 50 save for HP, and Lyre's only got skill and speed over 50 - not really all that impressive. Second, I never really see the need for the Mercenaries to have Paragon, and even then, I'd see it as better used on someone who's not arbitrarily treated as double their level when transformed, and a sitting duck untransformed (speaking of, Lyre's too weak to do damage to most anything whilst untransformed). And I feel the need to reiterate that Lyre starts with offense that's as good (read: bad) as that of Mist... while in her transformed state.

I normally give the most of the kills in 1-P - 1-2 to give him some levels.

Then he has usually the required speed to double, and later with Leonardo's support he might even be able to oneround soldiers and fighters.

That's why I would rank him even higher than Nolan in part 1.

I have trouble seeing it that way when I see him as more of a liability than a help, especially when I have to get lucky with his initial levels for him to have anything resembling use. Edited January 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Samias]

Edward is fun to train in my opinion and before Zihark and Sothe show up, he's an essential character alongside Nolan to shield Micaiah and Leo from harm. After that, training him for part 3 usability means you get to binge on what is essentially a free silver sword forge that only he can use. But just one glance at their bases and Zihark is pretty much barely Edward's inferior at the same levels once Ed's growths kick in, except Zihark is nearly untouchable with an earth-earth support and Ed merely has Light, which is way less useful than Earth or Fire, so it makes sense to just drop Ed in favour of Zihark since the likelihood of Ed promoting by that point is insanely low. I can see why people don't rate Edward that well once you look beyond the first three chapters and realize the stats for characters is gonna be all over the place.

On the topic of supports and caps, Zihark can get crazy dodge skills with Earth+Earth, but Mia can actually outdo Zihark's damage despite being one strength lower at cap, thanks to her Fire affinity. With another Fire partner, Water or Dark, Mia actually has a 2 attack advantage over her fellow Swordmasters, or else she is their equal if Zihark went Earth + Dark. With Mia's luck closing up the avoid gap, they are pretty much identical units but Zihark gets 5 more HP if he's lucky, but Mia will likely have the health advantage for longer. 1 attack really isn't a significant gain for Zihark or Ed over Mia, but Lucia and Stefan are both losing out somewhat in comparison. Sort of, in Stefan's case.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Samias

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I have trouble seeing it that way when I see him as more of a liability than a help, especially when I have to get lucky with his initial levels for him to have anything resembling use.

The chance to get strength and speed in one level up is 36%. I have to admit you must be a bit lucky with it.

However you still can give him up to five levels in the first three maps.

Edward needs 15 speed at the beginning of 1-3 to double everyone except myrms. With his 12 base speed and 60% speed growth he normally can reach the required speed.

After that he needs one speed in each chapter still to double most of the opponents. Very possible to realize.

Alright, it's a bit of an overstatement with Kyza and Lyre's growths, but they're noticeably better than other laguz growths.

Growthrates don't have the highest priority for tierlists.

Basestats and usefulness are the most important aspects.

Lyre's problems:

• She's a Laguz. She can't attack in the first turn (except with help of a heron).
• She's a cat. Cats suffer more with the transformation gauge than any other Laguz.
• She joins at a time and party you have tons of better units already. If she was part of the DB, she could fulfill a certain purpose (maybe as a dodge tank).
• Her bases are awful, even transformed. With 22 speed she can double only sages, even they can't be onerounded by her.
• Her growthrates are pretty much pointless, because it takes forever to reach a level up with a Laguz.

[-Cynthia-]

As a note, laguz growth rates may look lower than beorc growth rates- but laguz stats are doubled when transformed. So Ranulf's 30% Str growth is actually a 30% chance to gain 2 Str essentially which doesn't seem too shabby. Most laguz level up pretty slowly though.

Edited January 5, 2017 by -Cynthia-

[ping]

On the topic of supports and caps, Zihark can get crazy dodge skills with Earth+Earth, but Mia can actually outdo Zihark's damage despite being one strength lower at cap, thanks to her Fire affinity. With another Fire partner, Water or Dark, Mia actually has a 2 attack advantage over her fellow Swordmasters, or else she is their equal if Zihark went Earth + Dark. With Mia's luck closing up the avoid gap, they are pretty much identical units but Zihark gets 5 more HP if he's lucky, but Mia will likely have the health advantage for longer. 1 attack really isn't a significant gain for Zihark or Ed over Mia, but Lucia and Stefan are both losing out somewhat in comparison. Sort of, in Stefan's case.

You're right, I've pretty much forgotten about the support bonuses. I guess I value Zihark's +22 avoid more than Mia's 1.5 attack, but I still don't think any of the two has a significant advantage over the other in the endgame (I brought up the different caps, but again - it was mostly for the sake of completeness. It's still mostly Zihark in part 1 versus Mia in part 3 why I gave Zihark the (slightly) higher overall score.

[Shadow Mir]

As a note, laguz growth rates may look lower than beorc growth rates- but laguz stats are doubled when transformed. So Ranulf's 30% Str growth is actually a 30% chance to gain 2 Str essentially which doesn't seem too shabby. Most laguz level up pretty slowly though.

That's true, but with laguz leveling up at a pace that "snail's pace" is too kind in describing when transformed and being free kills untransformed, you're stuck with a serious catch-22 that makes it easier to just use beorc instead, unless the laguz unit is just that damn good, which just can't be said of most non-royal laguz.

EDIT: Oh look, some random 0s and 10s out of nowhere.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia