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After like 7 Lunatic+Hard Playthroughs of Conquest I've decided to make a Tier List for it. I'm looking to make it as accurate as possible. Being an efficient unit (high move, shelter, ability to kill at 1-2 range or bosskill, etc) makes the unit go up, not having these qualities or having them but needing more effort makes them go lower. Here we go:

Rules:

-Conquest Lunatic Classic Mode

-Full recruitment, No Deaths.

-No DLC or Bonus items.

-No outside my castle visiting feature.

-No cooking or capturing.

-No invasion battles.

-Efficiency (slower than LTC but not slow enough to where we can just casually take 10 turns in a map to grind someone up. Think of it like if chapter 12 takes 2 turns in a LTC run by bumrushing ryoma, efficiency takes a bit longer to ensure that it is reliable to do so. So like 6-7 turns. How many more Turns efficiency takes varies from map to map, but basically whatever seems reliable and fast)

Axe Wyvern Waifu Tier

Camilla

Top Tier

Corrin

Azura

Xander

Jakob (Ch2)

Leo

High Tier

Beruka

Silas

Niles

Felicia (Ch2)

Mid Tier

Effie

Kaze

Elise

Selena

Shura

Arthur

Peri

Gunter

Low Tier

Nyx

Keaton

Charlotte

Laslow

Flora

Felicia (Ch16)

Izana

Bottom Tier

Jakob (Ch16)

Benny

Mozu

Odin

[spoiler=List in Picture form]

Axe Wyvern Waifu Tier

fefates-icon-camilla.jpg

Top Tier

fefates-icon-kamuif.jpgfefates-icon-azura.jpgfefates-icon-xander.jpgfefates-icon-jakob.jpgfefates-icon-leo.jpg

High Tier

fefates-icon-berka.jpgfefates-icon-silas.jpgfefates-icon-zero.jpgfefates-icon-felicia.jpg

Mid Tier

fefates-icon-effie.jpgfefates-icon-kaze.jpgfefates-icon-elise.jpgfefates-icon-luna.jpgfefates-icon-asyura.jpgfefates-icon-arthur.jpgfefates-icon-pieri.jpgfefates-icon-gunter.jpg

Low Tier

fefates-icon-nyx.jpgfefates-icon-flannel.jpgfefates-icon-charlotte.jpgfefates-icon-lazward.jpgfefates-icon-flora.jpgfefates-icon-felicia.jpgfefates-icon-izana.jpg

Bottom Tier

fefates-icon-jakob.jpgfefates-icon-benoit.jpgfefates-icon-mozume.jpgfefates-icon-odin.jpg

[spoiler=Important Commentary on v1.0 Unit Placements]

First Tier belongs solely to Camilla, for obvious reasons. She joins as early as Chapter 10, with ridiculous bases in every stat with amazing growths that ensure she stays obscenely good throughout the game. She flies, has good weapon ranks, good classes and a decent personal skill. She's extremely dominant and doesn't need resources to perform at her best.

Second Tier kicks off with Azura, her dancing is invaluable throughout the game and it becomes kinda broken with Shelter units around. Corrin is an amazing, reliable and versatile combat unit for the entire game. She can pull off a myriad of classes too well, with cavalier or wyvern being her best options. Xander joins kinda late and wants your Speedwing. Those are his only flaws. Godlike 1-2 range and durability make him too useful in most of the lategame maps. Also has Shelter if you weren't already satisfied with him. Jakob is an amazing unit that joins you early and can go Paladin with a Heart Seal. While this does mean he starts E rank weapons, it offers too many benefits for that measly cost. It means you get an 8 mov unit early on. It means Jakob gets elbow room with just 1 level. With another level you get another Shelter unit. He even gets Defender early to skyrocket his already good combat. He just keeps getting better and better with little cost. Silas joins early with nice bases and growths, has a really good and abusable personal skill in a high move class.

High Tier kicks off with Niles, who is a really good unit that joins you early and has a ton of unique uses. He gives movement on pairup, gets mov+1 himself, has the ability to lockpick, has no trouble doubling, etc. He can even go bowknight later on and have like 10 mov. That's kind of amazing. His growths in areas other than spd means he can and often will fall off later on when enemy stats make the jump though. Then there's Effie, with her high str and good personal skill giving her clutch offense early on. She can go Great Knight and keep killing and tanking things. Kaze joins later than in Birthright but is still pretty darn amazing. He has amazing spd that lets him double basically forever and has good 1-2 range offense thanks to shurikens. Very useful unit but too frail to be exposed to too much combat. Leo, much like Xander, joins late and wants your Speedwing, but has really good bases and a tome that makes him a 1-2 range nuke. He has good bulk on both sides and is just really solid at combat. Felicia (Ch2), while inferior to Jakob in every way possible, does have the ability to go Strategist and have good offense (but terrible defense) early on. She's like a better Elise without Dragon Veins to me since she can do combat to get more exp than elise and get going faster. If she doesn't go strategist she's still a nice support unit that can eventually be a flame shuriken nuke.

Upper Mid Tier has Elise at the top. While Elise is really solid, I feel she's not a High Tier unit. That would mean she's just one or 2 spots below Leo and there's a very clear difference between them in performance. Elise comes early with a pony and is good at her healing job. Eventually she can be a playerphase nuke too with her amazing mag and spd growths. She can never really do EP combat thanks to her hp and def though. Beruka's bases are really solid and she flies. Her biggest downside is her Spd base being super low and her growths being on the poor side. Still, she's a flying unit with good single strikes and that makes her useful enough. Selena, much like Beruka, joins with solid bases early on. She's in a much more inferior class than Beruka though. She can pull off Bow Knight and Pegasus Knight rather well. The latter making her a flying Rescue user. She will be useful, much like Beruka but she won't be winning any mvp awards either. Shura joins late and costs you a Boots if you recruit him, but he can be useful as a Bow Knight with 10 move and has nice bases. Arthur closes Upper Mid. Being an early joining unit with a good support class and the ability to be another Shelter unit if need be.

Mid Tier. I felt like these guys needed the tier gap because there's no way they're on par with the upper mids. Peri kicks off the tier. She has average bases and growths in a good class and joins decently early on. She can use Shelter right away too. Gunter provides amazing pairup bonuses to Corrin, can use Shelter, can fly and he can grab quite a few support skills like Rallies really easily. Not an amazing combat unit, but a valuable support unit. Laslow joins along with Peri in C12 and has decent bases. His spd holds him back, but he's usable. He's mediocre, but usable. His rally is neat to have for free. A lot of people will give me heck for my Charlotte placement I bet, but she doesn't give move. Her str spd pairup bonus is amazing for sure, but needs more mov. And she's terrible at combat.

Low Tier: Now we get to the losers. Nyx is awful. She could maybe be early-sealed to Dark Knight and be decent in like one map but that's about it. She really is hopeless as a combat unit. She can go Bowknight and be a 10 move support unit but there are better options for that and they can do combat too. Flora joins with a B rank in staves in C19 so she can use entrap. She has good skl and mag, making her pretty accurate with staves too. She has that niche going for her. Staff rank is hard to build. Felicia C16 joins late and is extremely bad, but she can heal kinda well and maybe do decent chip with Flame Shuriken here and there. Izana joins suuuper late, but he has 2 rallies and can use staves on things. Keaton, while he does have nice bases, he joins at a time when no one wants a 5 move unit with good 1 range combat. This holds him back sooo much.

Bottom Tier: These are more losers than the losers. Jakob C16 can be another Shelter bot maybe and heal for less than C16 Felicia if he stays Butler. Benny can instaseal to GK and give move and str def on pairup but that's about it. Mozu can be a decent sniper if you want to go through the hell that is training her and spend an early Heart Seal on her for some reason. Odin is the worst character in the game from what i've played. His bases are laughably bad and his spd growth cripples him even more. He will always be mediocre at best even if you do train him. He can probably do better if sealed to samurai asap, but heart seals are heavily contested resources.

[spoiler=Bonus, ranking the Nohrian kids]

Top Tier

fefates-icon-lutz.jpgfefates-icon-sophie.jpg

High Tier

fefates-icon-nina.pngfefates-icon-ophelia.jpgfefates-icon-kanna.jpgfefates-icon-deere.jpg

Mid Tier

fefates-icon-midoriko.jpgfefates-icon-siegbert.jpgfefates-icon-soleil.jpgfefates-icon-shigure.jpg

Low Tier

fefates-icon-foleo.jpgfefates-icon-velour.jpg

Bottom Tier

fefates-icon-ignis.jpg

Percy and Sophie in the top as they are likely to exist because their parents are great/good. Percy has a Wyvern, with good stats everywhere and a huge defense stat that makes him actually really handy to tank things. He can get Shelter from his dad and fly, which is really good. Sophie is a Cavalier, which means she gets Shelter right away, has a good dad and often will join with good bases. She usually does well no matter who is her mom.

High Tier: Nina is likely to exist thanks to Niles being an amazing unit himself. She's on the very frail side but she has good offense and has the mov+1 skill to make her even better. Ophelia doesn't have a good dad, but wow her offense is really good and she can go Dark Knight. She's a nuke. Too bad about that dad of hers...Kana can inherit good stuff like Wyvern to help out. His/her stats are mediocre/average at best but he/she can be made into a useful unit more often than not. Dwyer is decent if Corrin married Jakob and inherits the good stuff, otherwise he's just a healer on a pony like Elise but worse.

Mid Tier: Midori can go Mechanist, which is a good class for 1-2 range nuking things. She's decent at best though. Siegbert isnt likely to exist before the very late maps thanks to Xander's availability. He's really average I find and strictly inferior to Xander. Soleil is a late joining Laslow without his Rally but with the ability to potentially be made better through skill genetics...not very promising. Can probably go Bow Knight and do decently. Shigure...it's painful to pairup Azura in Drafts! omg she's the worst!!!!! Now that I got that out of my system, Shigure can become a Rally Speed bot later on which is probably handy if he does manage to exist.

Low Tier: Forrest is a late joining healer thanks to Leo's late arrival. Velouria isn't likely to be in play and doesn't offer much.

Bottom Tier: Ignatius. Yeah...his dad is bad, his paralogue I hear is impossible after a certain point (havent done it myself yet) and hes probably just a pairup bot GK like his dad.

Previous versions:

[spoiler=v1.0]

Axe Wyvern Waifu Tier

fefates-icon-camilla.jpg

Top Tier

fefates-icon-azura.jpgfefates-icon-kamuif.jpgfefates-icon-xander.jpgfefates-icon-jakob.jpgfefates-icon-silas.jpg

High Tier

fefates-icon-zero.jpgfefates-icon-effie.jpgfefates-icon-kaze.jpgfefates-icon-leo.jpgfefates-icon-felicia.jpg

Upper Mid Tier

fefates-icon-elise.jpgfefates-icon-berka.jpgfefates-icon-luna.jpgfefates-icon-asyura.jpgfefates-icon-arthur.jpg

Mid Tier

fefates-icon-pieri.jpgfefates-icon-gunter.jpgfefates-icon-lazward.jpgfefates-icon-charlotte.jpg

Low Tier

fefates-icon-nyx.jpgfefates-icon-flora.jpgfefates-icon-felicia.jpgfefates-icon-izana.jpgfefates-icon-flannel.jpg

Bottom Tier

fefates-icon-jakob.jpgfefates-icon-benoit.jpgfefates-icon-mozume.jpgfefates-icon-odin.jpg

Edited by PKL

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Good reasoning on all your placements, I like seeing the thought people put into these.

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Two questions:

1. Does Niles' personal skill mean anything, since it can do things like net an early Rally Defense unit?

2. Are DLC classes considered at all?

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Two questions:1. Does Niles' personal skill mean anything, since it can do things like net an early Rally Defense unit?2. Are DLC classes considered at all?

Good questions. I never intended to tier generics or assume capture. Dlc classes are a no. I should add these to the OP probably ;p

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Charlotte is wayyyyy too high imo. Her pairup bonuses are great for units that struggle to kill things, but most of the top tier combat units have amazing strength already, aside from Niles and maybe Silas. Benny joins at the same time, can contribute as a real unit for a few maps (insta-promoted Benny is basically Gunter statistically, and he's useful in the Ninja Cave), and is one of if not the best pair up for Camilla while he exists, (She really loves the defence, since her durability can get a little spotty lategame, and extra strength is just nice to have). Also a minor deal but his personal skill is pretty nice to have for annoying maps like the ninja cave and fox map where your hitrates are a little shoddy, but sadly doesn't work when he's in someone's pocket.

Charlotte meanwhile can't function as a real unit without a LOT of investment for any length of time, and even the final product is pretty underwhelming since her durability is absolute garbage. Most units also have better options for pairups, I really prefer a +move pair on Xander (he really doesn't need the strength, and any +speed/move pairup like Laslow, Kaze or Selena are fine for him). Her contributions are even less than what Benny can potentially do imo, and Benny isn't that great (although I think he's too low as well, he's Gunter without Gunter's personal or Rally defence, being the 7th shelter user or w/e really isn't terribly useful, and Benny does sort of function as a unit if you stop off and get the thwomp level 5 skill in a kid paralogue or something).

Effie is probably a little high for what she does too, she requires the early master seal (not whole lot of competition admittably) to function, but when she's at her strongest, dudes like Jakob and Camilla are immortal demigods and someone below her like Leo is more valuable during a harder part of the game.

EDIT: Corrin is ridiculous, should be above Azura imo.

Edited by General Horace

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I just have two queries:

Leo - I never understood what anyone could see in him. I've read your quick write-up on him and I still don't get it. All he's ever been to me is a late-ish joining unit with decent chip damage who never doubles and in an awkward hybrid defensive niche where he ends up not really being able to tank either physically or magically very well. By your placements on this list, I would probably move him to the top of Mid. Is there something I'm missing?

Elise - I feel like Elise is kind of really important early on, especially if you make Jakob a Paladin because then she's your only healer until Felicia unless you get Dwyer early. She's forever horrible defensively, but her offense promoted I've found to be pretty good. I'd think she's closer to the high tier units than the upper mid, so I would put her there.

There are a few nitpicks I could make but otherwise it seems pretty solid to me.

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IMO:

Leo--- Leo's kinda high, considering just how late he comes and too-slow-to-double-anything-relevant speeds. All he's doing is nuclear chip when he comes and he kinda just fills in later spots. Felicia gets Flame Shuriken way earlier and contributes with staff use for basically eternity. It takes almost nothing to forge her a cheap +1 Fire tome that she can carry her through the entirety of E-rank and she's got tonnes of availability. I'm with Florete (RedFox). Felicia needs to be above Leo, and Leo needs to be below Felicia. Top of Mid seems way more accurate for him than the near-bottom of High.

Selena--- How are you getting her out of E-rank lances that quickly, when at that time, money is still kinda contested and second seals are already going to the likes of Jakob/Corrin? I suppose she does alright with an instant changeover, assuming that she gets the Seal early, but she's struggling to kill for a while even with Quick Reposte's damage boost, and she's definitely not capitalizing on Enemy Phase combat with her middling avoid and barely decent 1-range combat, even with a +1 Bronze Lance/Naginata (So, +1 Bronze Lance, because you shouldn't be able to get her a Naginata in CQ anyway unless she borrows Azura's, which isn't really made for her anyhow). I get how she hits more reliably with her higher skill and actual luck stat compared to Arthur, but Arthur has dedicated 2-range with the Hand Axe, which can be improved through a simple forge or strategic stance handling, and his offense goes a long way. Selena kicks it into high gear after intense babying, and there's little room for a dedicated weak pegasus knight when at the same time you get her, you have Camilla running the show, Beruka tanking + hitting things hard with virtually no investment whatsoever, and Arthur realistically being better at both tanking and offense + GreatKnight access with a second seal on himself anyway (giving him Luna on Axes as a GK, which is something that nobody else in your team should be seeing without Friendship Seal abuse on Beruka/Camilla/Charlotte. Heck, Asura comes pre-built as a basically better Niles and right when you need him too.

I'd put Selena below Shura and probably Arthur, as Arthur consumes basically the same amount of resources that Selena does, but with better availability, early 2-range and horse access. I'd also consider putting Selena/Shura/Arthur into Mid tier but that's just me.

Everything else is nitpicky, like Charlotte being in a tier above Nyx specifically because of her Pair-Up stat bonuses and Elise not being in bottom of High tier vs top of Upper Mid, due to being perpetually useful and a decent nuke when she finally promotes

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I just have two queries:

Leo - I never understood what anyone could see in him. I've read your quick write-up on him and I still don't get it. All he's ever been to me is a late-ish joining unit with decent chip damage who never doubles and in an awkward hybrid defensive niche where he ends up not really being able to tank either physically or magically very well. By your placements on this list, I would probably move him to the top of Mid. Is there something I'm missing?

Elise - I feel like Elise is kind of really important early on, especially if you make Jakob a Paladin because then she's your only healer until Felicia unless you get Dwyer early. She's forever horrible defensively, but her offense promoted I've found to be pretty good. I'd think she's closer to the high tier units than the upper mid, so I would put her there.

There are a few nitpicks I could make but otherwise it seems pretty solid to me.

Leo reclassed is really solid. Dark Knight is just kinda bad for him. He's not fast enough to continue doubling if he's a DK and ends up being Xander light instead of being a good magical cannon. Unless of course you support him with someone like Selena in which case it can push his speed to *just* the right doubling levels.

Agreed. Elise is really useful. Even if you reclass Corrin to a healer class, you still have to get a heart seal first before you can use it.

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Arthur looks like he can stand to drop - as a Fighter, he can't hit reliably enough, and his luck woes can easily mean random restarts (I haven't tried him as a cavalier, but that requires a hotly contested Heart Seal when I could get more mileage out of using those on someone else).

Leo reclassed is really solid. Dark Knight is just kinda bad for him. He's not fast enough to continue doubling if he's a DK and ends up being Xander light instead of being a good magical cannon. Unless of course you support him with someone like Selena in which case it can push his speed to *just* the right doubling levels.

Agreed. Elise is really useful. Even if you reclass Corrin to a healer class, you still have to get a heart seal first before you can use it.

Tbf, Sorcerer and Strategist aren't much faster (only +1/+2 speed over Dark Knight respectively), so I'm not really seeing the appeal of reclassing Leo.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Arthur looks like he can stand to drop - as a Fighter, he can't hit reliably enough, and his luck woes can easily mean random restarts (I haven't tried him as a cavalier, but that requires a hotly contested Heart Seal when I could get more mileage out of using those on someone else).

Tbf, Sorcerer and Strategist aren't much faster (only +1/+2 speed over Dark Knight respectively), so I'm not really seeing the appeal of reclassing Leo.

Strategist has +2 Base and +5% growth / Sorcerer has +1 Base and +5% growth over Dark Knight. 17 Base speed gets far more mileage than 15, even with a negligible growth difference. They both keep him set with Tomes, which is what he belongs with, and mitigates the need to invest in a Levin Sword for him + grinding up a sword rank. He's arguably not doing much with an Iron Sword that he couldn't do with his PRF tome. He'll actually have utility with a Heal staff and at D have access to Freeze/Mend, which is more than he'll ever do with a sword. I'm not saying that it's paramount to him slating a spot on the team, but Strategist gives him utility, with Gentilhomme and Inspiration to boot. A reclass to Sorc gives him instant Vengeance, which combos nicely with his Pragmatic's +3 dmg when HP isn't full. It'll take him a while to become a good Brynhildr support bot but he offers a lot as a Dark Knight->Strategist with Malefic Aura, Heartbreaker, Gentilhomme and Inspiration. That's a combo no one else really can work with, and it synergizes with Elise and Stone!Corrin heavily.

You're just not getting it all that quickly. Bottom line, Base 17 speed with an instant reclass and 3 levels of grinding gets you a probable +1 speed and Gentilhomme, which isn't that bad.

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Strategist has +2 Base and +5% growth / Sorcerer has +1 Base and +5% growth over Dark Knight. 17 Base speed gets far more mileage than 15, even with a negligible growth difference. They both keep him set with Tomes, which is what he belongs with, and mitigates the need to invest in a Levin Sword for him + grinding up a sword rank. He's arguably not doing much with an Iron Sword that he couldn't do with his PRF tome. He'll actually have utility with a Heal staff and at D have access to Freeze/Mend, which is more than he'll ever do with a sword. I'm not saying that it's paramount to him slating a spot on the team, but Strategist gives him utility, with Gentilhomme and Inspiration to boot. A reclass to Sorc gives him instant Vengeance, which combos nicely with his Pragmatic's +3 dmg when HP isn't full. It'll take him a while to become a good Brynhildr support bot but he offers a lot as a Dark Knight->Strategist with Malefic Aura, Heartbreaker, Gentilhomme and Inspiration. That's a combo no one else really can work with, and it synergizes with Elise and Stone!Corrin heavily.

You're just not getting it all that quickly. Bottom line, Base 17 speed with an instant reclass and 3 levels of grinding gets you a probable +1 speed and Gentilhomme, which isn't that bad.

What's with the Inspiration mention? Anyone not named Jakob or Felicia is getting it too late to mean much. Also, lolvengeance.

TBF, I think it's questionable to throw away Leo's niche as a bulky mage when I'm not really getting much of anything in exchange that'd make me think it was worth it.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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What's with the Inspiration mention? Anyone not named Jakob or Felicia is getting it too late to mean much. Also, lolvengeance.

TBF, I think it's questionable to throw away Leo's niche as a bulky mage when I'm not really getting much of anything in exchange that'd make me think it was worth it.

Inspiration comes at Lvl 15, and once you reclass him, you're not gonna go back that late in the game.

Leo loses a bit of bulk but gains Gentilhomme, which gives other bulky units that can deal much more damage back, a bit of reprise and make them way better at their job. Surrounding Leo with Corrin/Camilla/Xander gives fine support options, Gentilbonuses and fantastic Brynhildr attack-stance support, and he won't have a hard time keeping up.

What's he doing if he isn't reclassed? He's just another tank that'll eventually learn Seal Magic (wooo) and eventualyl LifeTaker, which won't even matter by the time you learn it.

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Inspiration comes at Lvl 15, and once you reclass him, you're not gonna go back that late in the game.

Leo loses a bit of bulk but gains Gentilhomme, which gives other bulky units that can deal much more damage back, a bit of reprise and make them way better at their job. Surrounding Leo with Corrin/Camilla/Xander gives fine support options, Gentilbonuses and fantastic Brynhildr attack-stance support, and he won't have a hard time keeping up.

What's he doing if he isn't reclassed? He's just another tank that'll eventually learn Seal Magic (wooo) and eventualyl LifeTaker, which won't even matter by the time you learn it.

Bold: AKA, too late in the game to matter for long unless your name is Jakob or Felicia.

Gentilhomme's reliant on fielding a bunch of female units to make any real difference.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Leo does have level as if he is 2 levels lower than his displayed level, so his Inspiration does see more playtime than it does for most, at least. Gentilhomme's fine; this isn't GBA FE so roughly half your units will be female if you're picking randomly, so it's easy to get some milage out of that. Same with Demoiselle for that matter.

I think Silas is quite overrated. Yeah, Cavalier is great, so I have no problem with him being decently high. But his stat build isn't really that great. His speed is on the low side, and while his str/def are pretty good, they don't pin ears back in either case. Starting with E lances (= no javelins) also hurts. Vow of Friendship is a nice push when it is relevant but in too many maps I want Corrin being healthy and where the fighting is thickest. If you compare Silas to Peri, I'm pretty sure I prefer her stat build, I'll take significantly more Spd/Res and slightly more Str over Silas' leads in Skl/Def. I know availability is a thing so if you want to argue Silas > Peri I'm totally fine with that, but the current gap is much too wide, and IMO it's mostly because Silas is too high. I'd move him to Upper Mid, based on your list; I definitely prefer everyone else in High, as well as Elise (especially if you Heart Seal Jakob away from a healer class).

I'd lower Selena and Laslow too. 5 move + mono sword sucks in Conquest since there's only one Kodachi, and it's not like either of them have amazing stat builds either.

List seems really good overall though. :)

Edited by Dark Holy Elf

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Bold: AKA, too late in the game to matter for long unless your name is Jakob or Felicia.

Gentilhomme's reliant on fielding a bunch of female units to make any real difference.

As if you're not deploying Elise & Camilla (or Felicia/F!Corrin, and arguably Selena or any of the average+ kiddos like Sophie and Midori).

Leo does have level as if he is 2 levels lower than his displayed level, so his Inspiration does see more playtime than it does for most, at least. Gentilhomme's fine; this isn't GBA FE so roughly half your units will be female if you're picking randomly, so it's easy to get some milage out of that. Same with Demoiselle for that matter.

I think Silas is quite overrated. Yeah, Cavalier is great, so I have no problem with him being decently high. But his stat build isn't really that great. His speed is on the low side, and while his str/def are pretty good, they don't pin ears back in either case. Starting with E lances (= no javelins) also hurts. Vow of Friendship is a nice push when it is relevant but in too many maps I want Corrin being healthy and where the fighting is thickest. If you compare Silas to Peri, I'm pretty sure I prefer her stat build, I'll take significantly more Spd/Res and slightly more Str over Silas' leads in Skl/Def. I know availability is a thing so if you want to argue Silas > Peri I'm totally fine with that, but the current gap is much too wide, and IMO it's mostly because Silas is too high. I'd move him to Upper Mid, based on your list; I definitely prefer everyone else in High, as well as Elise (especially if you Heart Seal Jakob away from a healer class).

Silas is incredibly useful as a ferrybot for Effie, and can at least help her get up to speed and at a fair pace, create Sophie who would also function well in tandem with GK!Effie lategame. She joins with C/C ranks and that's hard to dislike, plus strong skills through probable inheritance of Luna from Effie. She'll replace him quickly.

It's those shitty base weapon ranks that hurt Silas the most.

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As if you're not deploying Elise & Camilla (or Felicia/F!Corrin, and arguably Selena or any of the average+ kiddos like Sophie and Midori).

Okay, but that's only 3 girls that are practically guaranteed unit slots (the children require going out of my way to recruit, and what's more, out of the girls that are mid tier or higher, most of them are either tied to units that aren't that good [Ophelia], require the use of someone I'm not sold on being all that great [Nina], or their fathers join late enough that they are likely not going to exist before the paralogues become hell [Midori, Soleil]).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Okay, but that's only 3 girls that are practically guaranteed unit slots (the children require going out of my way to recruit, and what's more, out of the girls that are mid tier or higher, most of them are either tied to units that aren't that good [Ophelia], require the use of someone I'm not sold on being all that great [Nina], or their fathers join late enough that they are likely not going to exist before the paralogues become hell [Midori, Soleil]).

You're just not getting it all that quickly. Bottom line, Base 17 speed with an instant reclass and 3 levels of grinding gets you a probable +1 speed and Gentilhomme, which isn't that bad.

This is the point I've been arguing from the beginning. It's not bad, but it's not worth bumping a slot. Remember, I'm arguing that Leo be lowered, but to at least have this point considered. If it was Demosielle, I'd probably argue for him to be a tad higher, what with better support for Xander/Forrest/Kaze/Silas.

Also fwiw Midori has plenty of reason to exist at a reasonable point in the game and her paralogue shouldn't destroy you since you only need like two fliers to bumrush the boss to death by turn 2, with absolutely no support given to them outside of maybe a single Freeze Staff use just to save an early headache if you're for some reason, running 0 fliers. Soleil's chapter can be a pain later on of course, as can Nina's.No arguments there. Like I said, Sophie and Midori reap the benefits of Gentilhomme!Leo and if anything, Sophie's likely to be a good combatant as long as you don't marry Silas to Felicia or Elise, as she replaces Silas with relative ease, and Mido comes in easily anyway.

Edited by Elieson

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This is the point I've been arguing from the beginning. It's not bad, but it's not worth bumping a slot. Remember, I'm arguing that Leo be lowered, but to at least have this point considered. If it was Demosielle, I'd probably argue for him to be a tad higher, what with better support for Xander/Forrest/Kaze/Silas,

I'm not really taking sides here, but I just fail to see Strategist giving Leo enough to justify using a Heart Seal on him. Also, one of those four you listed is unlikely to exist in any reasonable timeframe.

Leo does have level as if he is 2 levels lower than his displayed level, so his Inspiration does see more playtime than it does for most, at least. Gentilhomme's fine; this isn't GBA FE so roughly half your units will be female if you're picking randomly, so it's easy to get some milage out of that. Same with Demoiselle for that matter.

So he gets Inspiration like one chapter sooner. Whoopedy-do. I'm still unimpressed.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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I don't use Leo solely as chip. I move him next to dodgy things, and let Heartseeker sort the rest out.

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I'm not really taking sides here, but I just fail to see Strategist giving Leo enough to justify using a Heart Seal on him. Also, one of those four you listed is unlikely to exist in any reasonable timeframe.

If you're dead-set on using Leo, you'll more than likely want him paired up. Forrest existing at all is just icing on the cake. If you don't get his kid, you still have a decent unit.

Also, the point is shared from my Selena point which argues that she and Leo both drop, in that

Selena--- How are you getting her out of E-rank lances that quickly, when at that time, money is still kinda contested and second seals are already going to the likes of Jakob/Corrin? I suppose she does alright with an instant changeover, assuming that she gets the Seal early, but she's struggling to kill for a while even with Quick Reposte's damage boost, and she's definitely not capitalizing on Enemy Phase combat with her middling avoid and barely decent 1-range combat, even with a +1 Bronze Lance/Naginata (So, +1 Bronze Lance, because you shouldn't be able to get her a Naginata in CQ anyway unless she borrows Azura's, which isn't really made for her anyhow). I get how she hits more reliably with her higher skill and actual luck stat compared to Arthur, but Arthur has dedicated 2-range with the Hand Axe, which can be improved through a simple forge or strategic stance handling, and his offense goes a long way. Selena kicks it into high gear after intense babying, and there's little room for a dedicated weak pegasus knight when at the same time you get her, you have Camilla running the show, Beruka tanking + hitting things hard with virtually no investment whatsoever, and Arthur realistically being better at both tanking and offense + GreatKnight access with a second seal on himself anyway (giving him Luna on Axes as a GK,...

Jakob/Corrin > Arthur/Selena all have priority on the Seal anyway, but if for some reason you're just rolling in the dough or have a spare seal around, Leo benefits from it. Leo benefits at all from use of a seal, which is the exact opposite for others like Effie/Elise/Camilla/Beruka/Charlotte/Gunter/Kaze/Niles/etc. There's not many units outside of the aforementioned quartet that really gain any mileage out of a second seal anyway, other than Odin (Questionable, wants another go to back to the D.Mage line anyway), Mozu (If you're a masochistic), Laslow (If you want a Master Ninja with Sol, it's something I guess), and Xander (If you want to throw away his PRF and have another tanky flier to support Camilla/Beruka with).

tl;dr Leo has the possibility for utility, which gives him benefits of utility. Even with these benefits, he's still not deserving of a position in top 10. Top 15, sure, but not top 10.

If you're not taking a side, but saying that you don't think using a Seal on him is justified, then you are taking a side. Just because you don't see it as important doesn't mean that it's a point to ignore. Leo does well as his other classes, and for specific reasons that impact on the average, 1/3 of your deployed party. That's acceptable, nothing more.

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Jakob/Corrin > Arthur/Selena all have priority on the Seal anyway, but if for some reason you're just rolling in the dough or have a spare seal around, Leo benefits from it. Leo benefits at all from use of a seal, which is the exact opposite for others like Effie/Elise/Camilla/Beruka/Charlotte/Gunter/Kaze/Niles/etc. There's not many units outside of the aforementioned quartet that really gain any mileage out of a second seal anyway, other than Odin (Questionable, wants another go to back to the D.Mage line anyway), Mozu (If you're a masochistic), Laslow (If you want a Master Ninja with Sol, it's something I guess), and Xander (If you want to throw away his PRF and have another tanky flier to support Camilla/Beruka with).

tl;dr Leo has the possibility for utility, which gives him benefits of utility. Even with these benefits, he's still not deserving of a position in top 10. Top 15, sure, but not top 10.

If you're not taking a side, but saying that you don't think using a Seal on him is justified, then you are taking a side. Just because you don't see it as important doesn't mean that it's a point to ignore. Leo does well as his other classes, and for specific reasons that impact on the average, 1/3 of your deployed party. That's acceptable, nothing more.

What I really meant by saying I wasn't taking a side was that I'm not arguing for or against Leo moving - I'm just stating my opinion on reclassing him. Also, how many Heart Seals do you get before the level 3 shop? 5?

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Leo with any +speed pairup doens't have any issues doubling. He might miss faster enemies like Heroes early on without a tonic, but tonics are very cheap.

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Leo with any +speed pairup doens't have any issues doubling. He might miss faster enemies like Heroes early on without a tonic, but tonics are very cheap.

Not to mention if you cook with a speed based food, although I forget if Nohr has easy access to speed food, I'm probably getting them mixed up.

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Not to mention if you cook with a speed based food, although I forget if Nohr has easy access to speed food, I'm probably getting them mixed up.

Everyone has access to speed food, but it's up to chance as to when you come across the first one to duplicate in arena.

edit: and I guess it's also up to chance that Leo is the one who gets the boost. At least if you get sent a Chief's Hat, you can always get +2 spd out of your meals.

Edited by Espinosa

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Not to mention if you cook with a speed based food, although I forget if Nohr has easy access to speed food, I'm probably getting them mixed up.

Which ain't reliable for obvious reasons.

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