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B) Charlotte will always have really bad skill whereas mozu not only has good skill but gets Certain Blow.

-Charlotte's Skill actually isn't that bad, it's about 7-8 points worse than Mozu's at Level 20/15 for instance, after the full wrath of their 25% growth difference has kicked in (luck gap is similar), which is only a difference of around 15 hit. Skill just isn't a very potent stat in this game (or many others).

-Charlotte's Strength is so much higher than Mozu's that she can afford to use more accurate weapons like bronze and still ORKO easily. There is also a Dual Club on Conquest, but no Dual Yumi, and if we're giving people preferential treatment Charlotte can use that to reliably OHKO swordmasters.

She doesn't have Certain Blow, but unlike Mozu she can take a hit or two on EP and murder whoever is foolish enough to touch her. Her offence is also generally better: more power (which lets her OHKO speedier enemies or just avoid counters in cases like mages), more speed, more weapon options.

You're right that Charlotte doesn't benefit specifically from P1 (since the enemies there don't scale), but there are other options to gain levels with her if you're willing to put in the effort.

I'm not really trying to prove a specific point about this, other than the fact that for some reason people love to give Mozu favouritism out of project arguments but not do the same thing for others (because it isn't as fun to raise a Level 10 Golddigger as a Level 1 Cute Child, I guess). Any tier list that puts Mozu significantly above Charlotte is making a pretty big mistake in my books, which at that point leaves me wondering what units you do see Mozu being significantly better than? Maybe we should move the conversation there.

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Azura's ranking is due to her singing, not combat ability. I think she'd fall pretty hard if we assume that she leaves Songstress.

Excuse me, I dance grinded Azura up to level 30 on her join chapter. Then I grinded MyCastle Battles and got a A+ with Effie. I changed her into General, her most optimal class, and bought her valuable skills like Astra, Defensive Formation and Dragonskin, and gave her a Guard Naginata. She tanked extremely well and I wouldn't have been able to beat Conquest Normal/Phoenix mode without her.

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Excuse me, I dance grinded Azura up to level 30 on her join chapter. Then I grinded MyCastle Battles and got a A+ with Effie. I changed her into General, her most optimal class, and bought her valuable skills like Astra, Defensive Formation and Dragonskin, and gave her a Guard Naginata. She tanked extremely well and I wouldn't have been able to beat Conquest Normal/Phoenix mode without her.

This is a tier list, not a place for your satire.

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It's not like the serious posts are of any higher quality.

It's relevant to the discussion, which is better than satire will ever hope to be. PKL still hasn't updated the list, but nothing's stopping you from responding to the people who responded to your stuff.

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To me it is a long-term investment, given just how early Mozu is acquired and how soon she starts becoming useful (literally chapter 8). and that's just with half a map given to her. (i've seen people claiming you can give the entire thing with mozu, but without a flier i don't see it). By chapter 10 she should by all rights be ORKO every enemy that isn't named, and as long as she has attack stance for 1-2 range, she does it safely.

I totally get this 1-map investment bringing her down in any tier list. Mozu cannot and will never be S rank exactly because she demands a heart seal and some time in one map (as well as some care in the next, as she is still fragile), which also translates to requiring a 2500g investment in case you are using Jakob1 who will always have a bigger impact even though he will never contribute as much as Mozu as soon as the 1st half of the game ends unless you married him to Corrin for extra classes. (i would say "but anyone can do this", yet not anyone gets promoted skills as fast so it is still a legit pro for him)

But i suppose that as long as "efficiency" is ever a concern an archer can't be good. I never had this concept in mind, so i played in the way archers shined: baiting enemies with a couple units in one turn and clearing the area with all of my units in the next. Lack of 1 range literally never was a problem for me in any fire emblem and early on it was sometimes useful to trick the ai into not attacking someone else. And oftentimes my archers very much had action in Enemy Phase because, you know, you can bait people at 2 range. That's how you deal with enemies that are over walls.

To me if you are not a tank, it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 access. You are not seeing enemy phase. You can totally make up for that in enemy phase, imo.

And of note: effective tanks tank as much as they are able to. Which means they take a lot of damage. Which means you, eventually, waste a turn healing them and the resources that come with that. There is always, always a trade-off.

I suppose you guys focus "efficiency" as "not wasting time". That is indeed part of the word's meaning, but it is worth remembering that "not wasting effort" is part of the word as well.

in other words: Jakob1 gives you an extremely good unit early for no effort, no time. But he will fall so hard later on that he will be just on a support/clean-up role unless he married Corrin to have skills (which has its own cost in more heart seals). Mozu requires time and effort in two maps, and then starts getting going as simply never stops being useful in combat.

This is why i question Mozu being an auto-bottom. The effort you do not waste by bringing her into battle is the compensation for the investment and time early, just as Jakob1 pays the price for breaking the earlygame by not being worth as much later.

Yeah, "efficiency" is a good word because it applies to many different things. Completing chapters quickly is better than slower. A combat unit which has the ability to KO units from 1 round of combat is better than 2. Being able to combat 1 or 2 range enemies is better than simply either one alone. Being able to fight against melee or magic users and not take much damage from either, but KO in return is highly valued compared to simply a unit only able to KO say simply magic units by itself. Additionally, a unit which can be relevant for more of the game is better than less of the game. A unit being effective immediately without the need for resources or few resources is better than those that require it alone. In general, efficiency can be applied to many things and you can easily see how certain aspects are better than others.

When moving slowly on a map consuming many turns you can certainly set a pace where a unit gets to see more usage. On the first turn of a map, you can set-up Mozu to try to KO something, then prevent your higher tier movement units moving forward because your slower movement units would not be able to keep up. In effect, using lower movement units restricts you from completing a map more quickly or attempting to do more in a map because your higher movement units could cover more ground than a 5 movement unit. One thing you can do to mitigate this is by effectively having a lower movement unit do some action, then you move someone like Silas (with shelter) and "rescue" them after their movement. Or you use sing/dance which allows you to do more with a unit.

When you are moving at a relatively quick clip you effectively have less total actions from the start time of a chapter to the end time of a chapter. The reason you can ever put Mozu to be useful on enemy phase is generally by putting them in an array where Mozu cannot possibly be attacked at 1-range assuming we are still doing the Archer route and you have things around you with 2 range. When moving slowly and effectively not using your movement to the maximum you have great flexibility in being able to place Mozu each turn into range to be attacked and act on the following turn. Though when you start moving quickly and maximizing movement each turn it becomes more restricting attempting to put her in a useful spot on enemy phase. Generally, 1-range units are better than 2-range locked since there are more enemies that attack at 1-range. Another thing about all of this is when moving quickly you get less player turns overall and means you attempt to use your enemy phase to do the bulk of your fighting if possible since player phase you would be spending all of that time moving units into place, healing, opening doors, staff uses, using dragon vein, dancing, etc. 1-2 range weapons are effectively pretty nerfed in this game anyway due to lack of follow-up which gives an edge to anyone with a useful personal weapon which allow the ability to double such as Xander and Leo.

Anyway, Jakob is a unique placement since for his time period of the map few units can really rival his combat participation. As you get later into the game you have access to most all units which anyone of them could undergo the same exact thing you are effectively proposing which is the investment into a late game combat unit. Many units can attempt to fill a combat role such as say Peri, Selena, Keaton, etc. They all come at different times, perks, and such, but overall I would not say that Mozu's late game investment is unique enough to warrant making her higher than say Peri. When we are moving quickly we are not able to invest in units such as Mozu very easily because with lower movement and 2-range lock you get few chances to give her experience compared to moving slowly. Which is itself a problem because we are gimping ourselves trying to baby Mozu in a fast paced environment to give her KOs until say promotion into Kinshi Knight where she can more easily keep up with higher ranked units, ignore terrain, have 1-range to fight 1-range enemies on turn phase.

Plus, as you mentioned we are giving her a heart seal which is contested resource for other units namely Corrin or Jakob as they can equally see use in it when you first get it around the time Mozu comes by. So, overall, Mozu I believe cannot really stand to be in Upper, Top, or Upper Mid Tier. Though she might stand to raise out of that area she is in right now. However, we would need to get into the specifics of those around her. Again, comparing Mozu to say the likes of Odin, Benny, Keaton, etc.

One might say why is such a unit like Xander doing so high compared to any other unit which might see late game investment. My thought is most of the other high tier and top tier units are effectively your better combat units from early game. Most of the rest cannot really come into late game and be as immediately useful or as good as Xander and he will outshine them or they really are not that far behind him in chapters. Such as say Peri. Which is easy to agree with since Xander comes as a Paladi,n which is a great class, 1-2 range weapon with high mt and +4 def, and naturally high str/def growths with enough speed to double several things and leave most anything else either nearly dead or dead in a single swing (pair-ups needed).

It's relevant to the discussion, which is better than satire will ever hope to be. PKL still hasn't updated the list, but nothing's stopping you from responding to the people who responded to your stuff.

I will say that I think this tier list won't be updated for quite some long time. Most of everything I have seen in this thread is pretty much explaining why a unit is approximately where they are located on the tier list and not much direct arguing that has been successful at saying this unit is completely out of place and should really be here. Nor has there been much within tier list discussion about direct comparison between two units that are near each other. There has been some, but not a ton.
See I didn't double post this time :P
Edited by Vorena

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Silas never really catches up to paladin jakob. And jakob never really falls off anyway. Jakobs leads are way bigger than theyre made to be. Which honestly is just making me believe silas needs to go down. Hes not a unit that can be compared to xander etc.

On heart seals: corrin jakob camilla selena arthur can all use it and give you way better results than mozu ever will. Mozu does have good offense if you go through the trouble of training her. The problem with that is that you had to baby a bad unit for several chapters, slow down for her, risk clears and safety to feed a unit that cant sustain herself and waste a valuable resource on her. All for a unit that can nuke a single enemy per player phase...i can name quite a few units that can do the same with waaaay less investment and they can also do it on enemy phase.

I want to bring up peri vs gunter. I initially believed peri to be better because of availability and way better combat than gunter. I was convinced by someone on gunters usefulness as a support unit. He offers sheltering, flight, damage and hit bonuses to corrin and moderately easy to obtain rally skill/def. Would peris earlier jointime and potential as a combat unit beat out his perks as a support unit?

I think effie can stand to go down a little bit. Not moving her out of high tier neccesarily but she could stand to go below kaze and leo.

I also want to have more discussion on charlotte vs keaton. I dont value keaton at all due to his low movement and 1 range lock but someone brought up his pairup bonuses being just as good as charlottes and he probably has an easier time with combat too.

Nyx: probably moving up above staffbots and charlotte. She does have the ability to be a +1 mov bow knight/dark knight and she doesnt do too badly as a combat unit in c11 and 13 if earlypromoted. I dont think shes better than laslow though. He does have a nice free rally and the ability to go ninja.

Proposed changes:

Silas down to top of High Tier

Effie moved below Leo

Nyx above Charlotte

Keaton up?

Charlotte down

EDIT: actually nyx might be better than laslow idk.

EDIT: i thought i had nyx below staffbots. I should probably go to sleep clearly i cant tier when tired.

Edited by PKL

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Keaton's great because his weapons are all his own, so no figuring out if you need to buy an extra Hand Axe or something. Furthermore, his stats can be manipulated with his stones, so you can either have him gib things or sorta-tank. Downside is being melee only (sucks for Chapter 17) and slowing down the Chapter 14 clear a little (Corrin could be used elsewhere). His beast-killng bonus helps against flying units, of which a couple of truly irritating chapters have (20 and 24 come to mind), but after his recruitment chapter, the next one that has things he gets effective damage against is Chapter 18. He gets A+ with Arthur, so if you want Shelter shenanigans, you can do that.

That's how I see Keaton, but my main experiences with him are in Hard mode. I'd put him above Izana, since Keaton's personal skill doesn't nerf your own damage.

As for Gunter, he's mostly utility, but he needs to be tied to Corrin to truly shine. Peri can go anywhere, but her skillset is a lot less utility-based (and no one in their right mind will get Heartseeker). Since I think that another unit > Corrin's extended damage, I'd place Peri higher. Of Gunter's rallies, the only one I like is Defense, and if you're in a situation where you absolutely need a flying shelterbot to keep someone alive, Gunter's probably not going to survive it.

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He gets A+ with Arthur, so if you want Shelter shenanigans, you can do that.

A+ Arthur doesn't give Keaton Cav access or anything else for that matter.

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Between Silas, Jakob, Arthur, Peri, Gunter, and Xander, there are enough potential Shelter-bots just given units' base class sets without having to go out of your way to get someone to A Rank with someone who already has access to Shelter.

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A+ Arthur doesn't give Keaton Cav access or anything else for that matter.

Turn Arthur into a Cavalier, then use Shelter on Keaton.

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What does Keaton getting A+ with Arthur have anything to do with using Shelter on Keaton? Anyone with Shelter can use it on Keaton.

While true, the only ones that get a support bonus out of it are Peri and Arthur. In the case of Arthur/Keaton, Arthur doesn't mind having Keaton's support bonuses. Peri doesn't, either, but I'm not too fond of putting them together..

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Silas never really catches up to paladin jakob. And jakob never really falls off anyway. Jakobs leads are way bigger than theyre made to be. Which honestly is just making me believe silas needs to go down. Hes not a unit that can be compared to xander etc.

My guess is this is due to the fact that since Jakob starts out strong he will get the EXP lead for quite awhile over Silas which means Silas trying to overtake Jakob never really happens?

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Jakob also potentially can gain really strong level 15 skills like Trample really fast, and do a ton of damage with them, and his boosted exp gain keeps him relevant for just as long as Slias anyway (Silas's lategame performance isn't wowing anybody), and even if need be, Jakob can fall back to a supporting role as a falcoknight or butler (or even stop by strategist for inspiration). Basically, Jakob is stronger earlygame (with some cost, yes), stronger midgame, and roughly just as strong lategame.

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1) Unit 1 can be used in a non-turtle or turtle strat in more situations than Unit 2, who's more limited to just turtling, then Unit 1 should be ranked higher. but in a strat that defaults to turtling, these two Units would basically be ranked the same (which is what I meant by the utility of Unit 1 being able to non-turtle being set to 0 because if you won't be taking advantage of it, it's basically 0 anyways). you're taking the word "extreme" too literally. just because it's an extreme doesn't mean it's not a valid strat, just like LTC isn't impossible. I was only pointing it out as the far opposite ideology. plus, I said you were leaning towards the extreme

2) most people wouldn't view 30 turns as fine, turtling or not. I brought up Azura not because of early song (though that's a point, too), but that you can bring her to Tier 2 lvls (assuming Dance Exp doesn't drop to 0) and now you have another contender for Heart Seal. she does have fantastic Str and Spd. and she has access to Kinshi so she can have similar if not far better capabilities than early Mozu. maybe babying might not have been the ideal phrase to use but it's still anything that requires you to take extra attention and to slow down because said unit cannot hold its own weight yet. as for the other examples you bring up, it'd be pretty silly to label any of those as babying.

3) A) Tomahawk is a thing + see B) w/ Mozu. and Charlotte can see way more EP action if there's a bunch of lance users (though in a turtling strat, this is mostly moot). and against units that she can't double anyways, Hand axe (which also can deal with 1 Range, which is still an advantage even if you say no 1-range isn't a disadvantage)

B) Attack Stance and/or Guard Stance can help with Hit. and you'd mostly send her in for WTA where she has Hit bonuses anyways. and going off for a second, you mentioned that Mozu should be ORKOing stuff by 10? let's see, enemies are ~Lvl 8-9 so we'll put Mozu's Lvl 8 stats here (Archer): 10.55 Str/12.6 Spd + Iron Bow 8 Mt (D Rank). a Spear Fighter has 25 HP/10 Def/11 Spd. so, she's doing ~8.55 dmg. where's the ORKO? Ninjas? 23 HP/6 Def, so 12.55 dmg. still no ORKO. who the heck is providing 10~17 dmg Dual Strikes?

just for fun, how would Charlotte do if we nerfed her to Lvl 8? 13.5 Str and 11.7 Spd with Iron Axe 8 Mt. deals 15.5 to Ninja and 11.5 to Spear Fighter. 19.5/15.5 respectively with Steel. easy ORKO without counter attack on Ninja with Dual Strike. Spear Fighter can be ORKO'ed with +1 Str and +4 Spd

C) Mozu is also hard to baby because of 2-range lock. she can only go for 1 kill every player phase only. especially in her paralogue. that's a lot of effort to get her kills as 2-range lock

D) at least Charlotte starts C Rank Axes compared to Mozu who starts at E Rank and 2-range locked. do Paralogue 1 enemies scale? in either case, Charlotte doesn't need as much babying to catch up as Mozu. so she'll be able to gain outside the paralogue more easily than Mozu

A) you don't understand what i'm saying. turtle strategies only really "turtle" for small bits of a few specific maps. That playstyle lets yout ake it easy in one turn where you setup auras/arallies and a tank (...or just use Benny and hope enemies actually aren't scared of closing in). The next turn forces your hand. You need to get in there and kill everyone that was baited unless you want your tank to fall apart to magic or debuffs + poison strike/grisly wound. The only thing turlting would do in a tier list is giving a small boost to characters with good tankiness and a small boost to characters with great offense but little durability like Charlotte and Arthur.

B) I know, but see? it's a little hard to make a rule that leaves no loopholes, haha.

3a) A bunch of lance users in CQ is not somethign you see that often though, especially after Charlie joins. Worse: those lance users are generally in packs where one of the dastards has Bolt Naginata.

Tomahawk is pretty expensive, inaccurate and makes Charlotte have no safety window if she misses her attack (remember, she is no effie, who can try that thing and shrug if she misses). If you are using THAt on EP it means you either have charlotte busy at the very edge of an enemy (and if you are using charlotte for that it usually means you would be better off using Niles or Bowzu cuz you are probably fighting ninjas), or trying to use her as bait from over the wall which is actually fine as long as its not one of those death traps (where killing enemies means more combat which eventually kills you). Hand Axe forges would be a better argument tho.

B) And being forced to depend on other units throughout the game to maybe have a chance at hitting stuff with the most inaccurate weapon class in the game isn't a con?

B2) Mozu, as well as everyone in my last attempt at Chapter 10, was level 11 or so. And i must apologize, i forgot I was basing myself on a run i was forced to use Mess Hall (which i usually wouldn't do, but subaki was STr screwed beyond what i tonic could fix for what i needed him to do), my mozu could have gotten STr blessed instead, but i simply only cared if Subaki got the bonus or not so i didn't look.

A normal spearfighter is not something L11 mozu can ORKO with help, but one wearing a steel naginata only need 7 damage dealt from a dual striker because she doubles him. onis would be a little trickier cuz you'd need corrin for that 10 damage on dual strike; so possible, but not certain reliability wise. Sorry again.

C) Bait faceless with Corrin+Silas, attack with Mozu + silas. That's not hard. inefficient most likely but not hard at all. And... if we are considering use of resources as part of efficiency, this is practically a given for Paralogue 1 since you barely get eXP out of it if you are not a mozu, so there isn't even a point to ORKO'ing things.

Charlotte needs exactly the same babying because you need to constantly sic a healer on her if you are giving her EP utility, unless you married her to Samurai corrin and got her Vantage. Paralogue 1 does not scale. Charlotte has to kill thing in chapters you can't afford to mess around because you need to baby her., and is definitely harder to baby.

mozu literally needs half of an easy mpa that is easily manipulated to bring her to a good level (5 or 6). Enemies in chapter 8 have crap defense and crap speed which gives her more levels. Half of chapter 9 will either come at you in the beginning and be at low HP or be hit by DV and... be at 1 HP. Chapter 10, if anything, has peggies that are easy pickings.

Chapter 13 on the other hand starts with magic in one side, takumi in the other, and flying enemy tanks carrying more tanks coming at you from the center. The latter forces you to take charlotte out of the way because enemies can pursue her and will tank her out. The central part of the map with reina requires reliability because missing one attack there means missing a kill, which means the enemy can go behind your units and pick at Azura/Elise. Charlotte is unreliable at that point even with WTA.

It is an horrible map for charlotte even if she didn't need any babying. This means that bringing her up to a good level from that map is ACTUALLY hard even if the Ai cooperates with you (Reina+Takumi's range has a few blind spots camilla can hit wyverns from, killing them and forcing the knight they carried to be dropped of in the other side of the river).

On heart seals: corrin jakob camilla selena arthur can all use it and give you way better results than mozu ever will. Mozu does have good offense if you go through the trouble of training her. The problem with that is that you had to baby a bad unit for several chapters, slow down for her, risk clears and safety to feed a unit that cant sustain herself and waste a valuable resource on her. All for a unit that can nuke a single enemy per player phase...i can name quite a few units that can do the same with waaaay less investment and they can also do it on enemy phase.

You listing Selena (read: forever crap combat without weakness exploits and sometimes even then) and Arthur (marginally better silas that requires 2000g to get going and has 2 e-rank hells) convinces me there is no worth arguing with you regardless of the parameters you use for this list, so i'll just address the bolded, again.

Chapter 8's enemies have crap spd and crap defense. Arthur and Effie already struggle somewhat in this level because half of the enemies are too beefy for them (fighters) and the others hang out of reach for the most part and deal loads of damage if you can't dual strike properly. at that point you can also opt for Bowzu to use Dual Guard and ORKO mages on enemy phase. You can also set her up to kill the first lancer in a spot where she will only aggro a single dark mage, which is far less risky than closing in with Silas (Jakob is better used in the southern area since he is less screwed if Flora goes after him and the enemeis there start rushing you anyways, the right side ones do not unless aggro'd individually)

chapter 9's first bath of enemies cannot be initiated on. They must come after YOu, and mozu and anyone else in your party can finsih them off with little trouble. The second part of the map has quite a few enemies at 1 Hp. this map is not difficult in any sense of the word. Of course, it would be even better for Mozu if you used her to help kill the archers near Haitaka from outside of their cage, but that goes against the run's principles i suppose.

She should be as competent as Niles by this point, and the "babying" in "several chapters" is literally babying in Paralogue 1 and playing the game normally in the others.

This time i'm getting out of here for sure.

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Speaking of Arthur, I'm of the opinion he needs to drop - he's too unreliable at hitting as a Fighter, and unless you glue Bronze weapons to him, trying to use him means risking clears most every time he sees combat because he's pretty much always facing non-zero crit chances.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Speaking of Arthur, I'm of the opinion he needs to drop - he's too unreliable at hitting as a Fighter, and unless you glue Bronze weapons to him, trying to use him means risking clears most every time he sees combat because he's pretty much always facing non-zero crit chances.

Could you please get rid of this irrational crit fear of yours when said stat is easily fixed with the amount of Goddess Icons the game stuffs down your throat and even if you decided to sell them, there is still low probability that it'll even happen in the first place, or that it'll be of much consequence, Cav Arthur for instance can survive even after eating a crit.

Sure it'll happen every once in awhile, but that's what happens in a game that revolves around Dice Rolls like D&D, I mean no one would get anything done in a D&D game if people simply stopped when there was a chance of failure. I don't see you complaining about say Rutger in FE6 facing crit chances, when he also has low luck and in a similarly hard game with less of an opportunity to fix it.

Not to mention, part of the reason Arthur is higher up is because of his excellent support boons.

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Could you please get rid of this irrational crit fear of yours when said stat is easily fixed with the amount of Goddess Icons the game stuffs down your throat and even if you decided to sell them, there is still low probability that it'll even happen in the first place, or that it'll be of much consequence, Cav Arthur for instance can survive even after eating a crit.

Sure it'll happen every once in awhile, but that's what happens in a game that revolves around Dice Rolls like D&D, I mean no one would get anything done in a D&D game if people simply stopped when there was a chance of failure. I don't see you complaining about say Rutger in FE6 facing crit chances, when he also has low luck and in a similarly hard game with less of an opportunity to fix it.

Not to mention, part of the reason Arthur is higher up is because of his excellent support boons.

Even though he's not the only one who might want them (a Luck bane Corrin, which everyone and their grandma is oh so quick to recommend, might also want them, as would Kaze)? And sure, he might survive, but he might not be able to take much more, depending on whatever crit him, at which point you'd better hope that was the last enemy that could attack him, or that everything else misses. Oh, and I do take issue with Rutger's crit-prone tendencies, especially when he's one of the best bosskillers you have.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Speaking of Arthur, I'm of the opinion he needs to drop - he's too unreliable at hitting as a Fighter, and unless you glue Bronze weapons to him, trying to use him means risking clears most every time he sees combat because he's pretty much always facing non-zero crit chances.

Could you please get rid of this irrational crit fear of yours when said stat is easily fixed with the amount of Goddess Icons the game stuffs down your throat and even if you decided to sell them, there is still low probability that it'll even happen in the first place, or that it'll be of much consequence, Cav Arthur for instance can survive even after eating a crit.

Sure it'll happen every once in awhile, but that's what happens in a game that revolves around Dice Rolls like D&D, I mean no one would get anything done in a D&D game if people simply stopped when there was a chance of failure. I don't see you complaining about say Rutger in FE6 facing crit chances, when he also has low luck and in a similarly hard game with less of an opportunity to fix it.

Not to mention, part of the reason Arthur is higher up is because of his excellent support boons.

Goddess Icons give +4 Luk per use, and you have two by the time chapter 10 rolls about iirc. one goddess icon offsets the CEV reduction from Misfortune's -5, but that ignores his -15CEV Aura for nearby enemies, which can be huge. His support bonuses and Attack Stance options are hard to find useless, and the only other people who desperately want your other goddess icons are -Luck Corrins and maybe early Nyx and maybe Kaze, who's dodging stuff left and right anyway. Base Arthur totes a -4CEV while most of the rest of the cast holds an average of about 10ish. IF you're even using Nyx, it's not for her to survive combat

It's an inconvenience to have a small % chance to restart if you put Arthur up against enemies that have crit potential but considering you have the option to leave units like Azura and Elise out of harms way entirely, you have the option to leave Arthur out of Crit's way much more reliably.

He also gets a lot out of reclassing to GK, because as I said some pages ago, he basically has a monopoly on Axe!GK for Luna usage, which is pretty cool

That also disregards Percy's Fortunate Son bonus which is +15 CEV to nearby units, which just for himself is ginormous, but for Arthur, is also incredible.

Edited by Elieson

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Goddess Icons give +4 Luk per use, and you have two by the time chapter 10 rolls about iirc. one goddess icon offsets the CEV reduction from Misfortune's -5, but that ignores his -15CEV Aura for nearby enemies, which can be huge. His support bonuses and Attack Stance options are hard to find useless, and the only other people who desperately want your other goddess icons are -Luck Corrins and maybe early Nyx and maybe Kaze, who's dodging stuff left and right anyway. Base Arthur totes a -4CEV while most of the rest of the cast holds an average of about 10ish. IF you're even using Nyx, it's not for her to survive combat

It's an inconvenience to have a small % chance to restart if you put Arthur up against enemies that have crit potential but considering you have the option to leave units like Azura and Elise out of harms way entirely, you have the option to leave Arthur out of Crit's way much more reliably.

He also gets a lot out of reclassing to GK, because as I said some pages ago, he basically has a monopoly on Axe!GK for Luna usage, which is pretty cool

That also disregards Percy's Fortunate Son bonus which is +15 CEV to nearby units, which just for himself is ginormous, but for Arthur, is also incredible.

I don't see Misfortunate's effect of making enemy units more prone to critical hits as all that useful because enemies tend to have jack shit for crit evade for the most part, especially once everyone and their grandma starts using silvers (I can count the number of instances where Misfortunate would actually be doing much of anything on one hand). And crits aren't that useful for the player anyhow. Also, I'm not buying into this BS about "Kaze's going to be dodging stuff left and right anyway". Oh, and it takes 3 Goddess Icons to negate Misfortunate's -5 Cev penalty. Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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I don't see Misfortunate's effect of making enemy units more prone to critical hits as all that useful because enemies tend to have jack shit for crit evade for the most part, especially once everyone and their grandma starts using silvers (I can count the number of instances where Misfortunate would actually be doing much of anything on one hand).

That's handicapping yourself though. Not relying on crits is one thing, but if you're advancing intelligentlyin many circumstances, bar super earlygame, you're not often throwing your units into battles, on PP especially, that are going to set themselves up for failure later on. If you need to 2H something to kill it and you crit it to kill it earlier than expected, then that lets you adjust your strat accordingly, and prepare for battle with a potential for one less attack on you to need to worry about.

And crits aren't that useful for the player anyhow.

Unless you're Crit-killing things that cause your unit to get overwhelmed by attacks that you didn't plan for, crits are a good thing. They're unreliable bonuses, just like getting critblicked is an unreliable problem.

Also, I'm not buying into this BS about "Kaze's going to be dodging stuff left and right anyway".

Pitting Kaze and his pretty gigantic speed and minimum Avo+5 (10 if A-support) before counting in a partner's avoid bonus gives him more avoid to work with than most. He's got basically permanent accurate 1~2 with shurikens and when promoted, gets to be piled on nicely, when compared with daggers which almost never drop avoid, and many daggers (and shuriken) that drop enemy accuracy when knocking down Skl after hit. Kaze can take a hit and dodge. and with proper support and application, will dodge. Unless of course you're throwing Kaze into a bunch of WTD.

Oh, and it takes 3 Goddess Icons to negate Misfortunate's -5 Cev penalty.

Isn't 1 Luk = 1 CEV? 1 Icon + Arthurs's base 1 luk = 5 Luk = 5 CEV, which offsets Misfortune's -5. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

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That's handicapping yourself though. Not relying on crits is one thing, but if you're advancing intelligentlyin many circumstances, bar super earlygame, you're not often throwing your units into battles, on PP especially, that are going to set themselves up for failure later on. If you need to 2H something to kill it and you crit it to kill it earlier than expected, then that lets you adjust your strat accordingly, and prepare for battle with a potential for one less attack on you to need to worry about.

Unless you're Crit-killing things that cause your unit to get overwhelmed by attacks that you didn't plan for, crits are a good thing. They're unreliable bonuses, just like getting critblicked is an unreliable problem.

Pitting Kaze and his pretty gigantic speed and minimum Avo+5 (10 if A-support) before counting in a partner's avoid bonus gives him more avoid to work with than most. He's got basically permanent accurate 1~2 with shurikens and when promoted, gets to be piled on nicely, when compared with daggers which almost never drop avoid, and many daggers (and shuriken) that drop enemy accuracy when knocking down Skl after hit. Kaze can take a hit and dodge. and with proper support and application, will dodge. Unless of course you're throwing Kaze into a bunch of WTD.

Isn't 1 Luk = 1 CEV? 1 Icon + Arthurs's base 1 luk = 5 Luk = 5 CEV, which offsets Misfortune's -5. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The issue is, most enemies tend to not have that much crit evade to begin with, and out of the few instances that they do, one of those is with enemies that are relevant for all of only one chapter, and two more are lategame bosses that you'd do well to NOT have Arthur anywhere near anyway).

I find it hard to see many situations where crits do much other than MAYBE spare me from eating a counter.

Kagero's Dart and Jakob's Tray are the only weapons that debuff Skill to an extent where it's even noticeable, and there's the part where the former is not obtainable in Conquest, and the latter is randomly obtained.

Nope - it takes 2 points of luck to equal one point of crit evade.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Arthur's low dodge is an issue and should not be diminished, and yes, it takes +10 luck to offset it. More likely he'll just end up using Bronze a lot, which turns him from a highish-power unit into a lowish-power unit in practice. Still, it's not a fatal issue by any means, since as mentioned we can protect Arthur from fatal crits just as we protect Azura and Elise from damage, and once Percy shows up that's a big boon to making this problem less bad. As well as the ability to forge bronze weapons.

I think Arthur's roughly in the right place. If it were up to me I'd probably swap him and Peri but that's about it.

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