PKL's Conquest Tier List v1.1

[Alastor15243]

But with how hard a time Azura has building supports with other units, especially ones not named Corrin, 20/5 would likely have come and gone before they marry, and at worst, I'd likely have beaten the damn game before they even marry.

All you have to do is have her sing for him a lot. As long as he's paired up with Keaton to build up their support too he should have no trouble one-rounding enemies so it's not like the singing is better served elsewhere in general.

[Shadow Mir]

All you have to do is have her sing for him a lot. As long as he's paired up with Keaton to build up their support too he should have no trouble one-rounding enemies so it's not like the singing is better served elsewhere in general.

...

......

.........Just how quick do you think Azura's supports build up? Because I think you're making them out to grow faster than they actually do.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Elieson]

At 1/3 of a support point per Azura Song on Laslow (because they don't have a modified Support Bonus accumulation rate), you're looking at 3 dances on Laslow (w/ Keaton support), you need:

9 Songs for C-rank

21 Songs for B-Rank

33 Songs for A-Rank

48 Songs for S-Rank

That's 48 songs. Of course, that ignores the 1/3 of a support point Laslow gets for battling with Adjacent!Azura that can be accumulated. (and the potential 1/6 point for Dual Strikes/Guards that occur in combat, assuming Laslow isn't attacked by a unit he can't counter, but this wouldn't happen if Keaton's Paired Up for the raw stat bonuses and DualGuard support, so I'll assume no more than 2 points for Azura in this case.

That's also assuming that you don't feel like having Azura sing for anyone else...not Corrin, not Elise for extra healing in a pinch, not Camilla or Beruka for flying support and potential Rally Def support, just non-stop Azura on Laslow action.

I'm not judging or assuming anything, I'm just stating facts here, that you spent I'll say...40 turns from Chapter 12-18, with these two glued together, to get that S-rank.

Now I'm judging. You're really handicapping yourself by forcing Azura to be stuck on Laslow for 6 straight chapters.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Elieson

[Alastor15243]

...

......

.........Just how quick do you think Azura's supports build up? Because I think you're making them out to grow faster than they actually do. Laslow hogging Azura's attention as they go everywhere might make good fanfic material, but I have to give it an F in terms of practicality.

It really wasn't a hassle at all. And I'm not lying about what levels I got them at. My entire runthrough is completely documented if you doubt me.

See for yourself, Conquest starts on this page.

[Elieson]

It really wasn't a hassle at all. And I'm not lying about what levels I got them at. My entire runthrough is completely documented if you doubt me.

See for yourself, Conquest starts on this page.

Stuff like this

While neat, isn't really "efficient".

[Alastor15243]

Stuff like this

While neat, isn't really "efficient".

Not quite sure what part of that image you're referring to.

[Elieson]

Not quite sure what part of that image you're referring to.

Everything i circled in red, doesn't need to be there. It looks like you just took a turn moving a bunch of people like 1 tile, so you could prepare an assault on the next turn.

Why didn't you just go?

[Jedi]

Not quite sure what part of that image you're referring to.

Turtling, instead of actually moving towards your goal is incredibly inefficient in FE terms, any turn spent, should have maximum effort put into succeeding at the map or some goal in mind.

Note this is only in the context of LTC or efficiency runs, (the latter of which being what this is tier'd by) but yeah.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Jedi

[Alastor15243]

Everything i circled in red, doesn't need to be there. It looks like you just took a turn moving a bunch of people like 1 tile, so you could prepare an assault on the next turn.

Why didn't you just go?

Because most of my army was fragile, and the incoming enemies were largely heavy-hitting berserkers and great knights, and I didn't want to rely on dodging to get them through it because I was playing ironman and I had to assume every attack would hit. So I took my toughest unit, had them bait them, and then had my team perform an all-out assault. And from that turn on I moved forward at a brisk pace. I was a little paranoid because this was an ironman playthrough. That's all.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Alastor15243

[Errorik]

This has really gone down hill with the people who can't comprehend opportunity cost, somehow think it's not lunatic, and don't understand what playing efficiently/briskly is. Also, keep using your anecdotes. Really proves a point.

[Vorena]

This has really gone down hill with the people who can't comprehend opportunity cost, somehow think it's not lunatic, and don't understand what playing efficiently/briskly is. Also, keep using your anecdotes. Really proves a point.

I honestly love the amount of conversation going on. Everyone contributes to pointing out things about the game I never knew at times. Whether it be silly things that have to get shot down or not. Not only this, but usually be people saying silly things others do not agree with I get to see others have to actually explain the reasons why a person is tiered in a particular manner.

PKL did like most every other Tier list maker in existence and simply make a chart without hardly any justification at all. Its is implied by the small subset what the reasoning should be and even then to the people who understand not every caveat is understood.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Vorena

[Alastor15243]

This has really gone down hill with the people who can't comprehend opportunity cost, somehow think it's not lunatic, and don't understand what playing efficiently/briskly is. Also, keep using your anecdotes. Really proves a point.

Did we actually manage to come up with a concrete definition of "efficiency"? That's been a pretty significant point of contention in this thread, all I found that the thread was able to agree on is that it's not as extreme as speedrunning but also several steps above grinding. While my Mozu argument was more of a contention over "chapters spent babying" versus "turns spent babying" (the former Mozu fares just fine in at just one, the latter not so much), Laslow's just a decent unit that you can spend some extra money to make a powerful rally bot.

And I don't see why my experience with Laslow being "anecdotal" is relevant unless it can be demonstrated that I got ridiculously lucky with Laslow's growth rates. Laslow isn't like Mozu, he doesn't require any extreme babying to train, and even if we assume that this list is explicitly only with Lunatic in mind, Lunatic doesn't buff enemy stats in Conquest most of the time, so if anything, unless the experience system is different in Lunatic, the increased number of enemies should mean it's even more feasible to get Laslow to level 20/15 by chapter 23, not less. The only thing that keeps my strategy from being repeatable is if I got lucky with his growths.

And I didn't. I just calculated his average stats on the path I took him, and he was 1.5 points blessed in HP, half a point blessed in strength (he capped it at level 16), 2 points blessed in skill, a point blessed in speed, even in luck, 2 points under in defense, and a point over in resistance. Perfectly average Laslow stats.

Edited December 23, 2016 by Alastor15243

[eclipse]

Peri and Mozu should be higher.

Why?

Of course you'd think that. Just an example of why people take your opinions about as seriously as Sarah Palin.

For actual tier related business, Effie needs to drop massively, Leo should rise to just around Xander's level, and Beruka should rise a tier too, possibly above Silas.

1. No need for the first sentence.

2. Why?

This has really gone down hill with the people who can't comprehend opportunity cost, somehow think it's not lunatic, and don't understand what playing efficiently/briskly is. Also, keep using your anecdotes. Really proves a point.

Do you have anything to contribute to the tier list itself? Complaining about the discussion in the tier list doesn't count. Just making statements about who should go up/down isn't helpful, either. I can claim that Keaton should be top tier, but that's obviously personal bias, instead of actual reasons supported by the game.

This goes for everyone. I expect to see logic behind any stances, and posts contributing to the tier list itself.

Now, for the thing I actually wanted to reply to:

If both characters want to to double, they'll likely want to use an Iron Axe/Beaststone because they both have middling speed. Charlotte has +2 Mt on her weapon compared to Keaton (and it can be forged, if we're willing to spare the resources), but Keaton's Stone has +20 Hit. Keaton still has the Atk advantage due to higher Str, but his accuracy advantage is pretty huge- and relevant given their Skl stats. Charlotte can Gamble and possibly use things like the Killer Axe to fish for crits, but given her already shaky hit rates I think removing Gamble is the better option. Charlotte can use the Hammer on Knights/General, but competes for this resource with units like Camilla and Beruka, Keaton's 2x damage to beasts doesn't cost us resources elsewhere.

Their growths are pretty similar. In their base classes, Charlotte has +5 % HP, +25% Skl, +15% Spd +15% Lck. Keaton has +5% Str, +35% Def, +20% Res. Keaton also gets +10 Hit, +5 Crit, +10 CEV from promotion, Charlotte gets +20 Crit, -5 CEV from promotion. Fighter-->Berserker gives Charlotte better offensive gains than Keaton, he gets better defensive gains.

So I guess Keaton and Charlotte are similar in some offensive parameters, but he's notably more durable physically and more accurate. Except for Charlotte's crit potential, I'm not sure she has much going for her here as a lead unit.

If you want to compare effective damage, beast effectiveness >> armor effectiveness. Charlotte can Hammer away on her joining chapter. After that, the only other opportunities are Chapter 18, because Hoshido doesn't believe in armored units, and Endgame (I think). Keaton's beast-killing is a lot more useful, because both Nohr and Hoshido have such units (join chapter, Chapter 18, Chapter 19, Chapter 20, Chapter 24). Whether or not Keaton does enough damage to make it worth any sort of argument is another matter. Regardless, I'd say that Hammer usage in Conquest is low enough where I wouldn't count it as much of a plus to anyone.

[-Cynthia-]

Armors do show up in a few paralogues, though mounted units do as well so that's not really a point in Charlotte's favor when she still has to share the Hammer. I think Keaton has enough Atk to OHKO Pegs/Kinshis/foxes, though he might want the Beastrune for these instances rather than the Beaststone. Overall, yeah having beast effectiveness>armor effectiveness.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Chapter 26 has a substantial number of armour units as well. And perhaps more importantly, armour units, while uncommon, are actively difficult to take down in a way that most mounted units are not (especially since the mounted units of C14, C20, and C24 all have an arrow weakness as well, with the sole exception of Hinoka). I am thus inclined to disagree with the statement that hitting beast weakness is more valuable. (Though I do agree with the statement that Keaton provides a new, unique source of weakness hitting whereas other units are fighting over a limited supply of Hammers, etc.)

[eclipse]

Armors do show up in a few paralogues, though mounted units do as well so that's not really a point in Charlotte's favor when she still has to share the Hammer. I think Keaton has enough Atk to OHKO Pegs/Kinshis/foxes, though he might want the Beastrune for these instances rather than the Beaststone. Overall, yeah having beast effectiveness>armor effectiveness.

Much as I love Keaton, Chapter 19 is both amazing for him and a huge problem. Several of the Kitsune also have beast effectiveness, which means that Keaton can't be exposed to too many of them on EP. Currently doing a run on Hard, need to recheck if Keaton can OHKO flying units on Chapter 24 (if he can't pull it off in my run, then he can't do it on Lunatic).

Chapter 26 has a substantial number of armour units as well. And perhaps more importantly, armour units, while uncommon, are actively difficult to take down in a way that most mounted units are not (especially since the mounted units of C14, C20, and C24 all have an arrow weakness as well, with the sole exception of Hinoka). I am thus inclined to disagree with the statement that hitting beast weakness is more valuable. (Though I do agree with the statement that Keaton provides a new, unique source of weakness hitting whereas other units are fighting over a limited supply of Hammers, etc.)

I knew I was forgetting something. Sorry about that! The higher-stat generals, IIRC, have Wary Fighter, which means that they need to be OHKO'd, or someone else needs to give them a hand. I distinctly remember Camilla not being able to ORKO the Chapter 18 guys on Hard.

EDIT: I need to get some dinner/sleep.

Edited December 24, 2016 by eggclipse

[-Cynthia-]

Much as I love Keaton, Chapter 19 is both amazing for him and a huge problem. Several of the Kitsune also have beast effectiveness, which means that Keaton can't be exposed to too many of them on EP. Currently doing a run on Hard, need to recheck if Keaton can OHKO flying units on Chapter 24 (if he can't pull it off in my run, then he can't do it on Lunatic).

I knew I was forgetting something. Sorry about that! The higher-stat generals, IIRC, have Wary Fighter, which means that they either need to be OHKO'd, or whoever has the Hammer has to be bulky enough to survive a counterattack.

Bringing it back to Charlotte, she likely isn't doing much better defensively against the foxes here since she has about 10 less defense than Keaton. I imagine he should be able to OHKO Falcos and Kinshis given their low physical durability (I've had Xander do it at WTD), though Charlotte might be able to pull this off as well with the Mt of Axes+ her personal skill.

[Shadow Mir]

Bringing it back to Charlotte, she likely isn't doing much better defensively against the foxes here since she has about 10 less defense than Keaton. I imagine he should be able to OHKO Falcos and Kinshis given their low physical durability (I've had Xander do it at WTD), though Charlotte might be able to pull this off as well with the Mt of Axes+ her personal skill.

That might be the case, but her accuracy isn't to be trusted, especially if you're using her as a Berserker.

[eclipse]

Bringing it back to Charlotte, she likely isn't doing much better defensively against the foxes here since she has about 10 less defense than Keaton. I imagine he should be able to OHKO Falcos and Kinshis given their low physical durability (I've had Xander do it at WTD), though Charlotte might be able to pull this off as well with the Mt of Axes+ her personal skill.

Do the foxes do 10+ bonus damage to Keaton? He can attempt to tank it out via Beastrune, but then there's the speed hit. Not sure if Charlotte has enough speed to avoid being doubled, since that usually leaves one of my non-tanks dead, or close to it.

[GoXDS]

Do the foxes do 10+ bonus damage to Keaton? He can attempt to tank it out via Beastrune, but then there's the speed hit. Not sure if Charlotte has enough speed to avoid being doubled, since that usually leaves one of my non-tanks dead, or close to it.

Beastbane just doubles stone Mt so +6 w/ Beaststone and +9 against Beastrune. Charlotte, assuming same lvl as the enemy in this Chapter is Lvl 20/4 w/ 24.45 Spd. Beaststone Foxes have 23 Spd and Beastrune Foxes have 18 Spd. Keaton also has 18 Spd before Stone mods

oh also reminder that Beastbane is x2 Mt while effective weapons are x3 Mt

Edited December 24, 2016 by GoXDS

[eclipse]

Beastbane just doubles stone Mt so +6 w/ Beaststone and +9 against Beastrune. Charlotte, assuming same lvl as the enemy in this Chapter is Lvl 20/4 w/ 24.45 Spd. Beaststone Foxes have 23 Spd and Beastrune Foxes have 18 Spd. Keaton also has 18 Spd before Stone mods

oh also reminder that Beastbane is x2 Mt while effective weapons are x3 Mt

That helps a lot, thanks! It looks like Charlotte will be faster overall, but Keaton runs the risk of being doubled by Beaststone foxes while he has Beastrune equipped (compensates for this with added bulk, though LoD Beaststone foxes can bite me). Sadly, it's lances/knives that are effective against beasts, not axes. Sorry Charlotte.

[Shadow Mir]

That helps a lot, thanks! It looks like Charlotte will be faster overall, but Keaton runs the risk of being doubled by Beaststone foxes while he has Beastrune equipped (compensates for this with added bulk, though LoD Beaststone foxes can bite me). Sadly, it's lances/knives that are effective against beasts, not axes. Sorry Charlotte.

Speaking of, IIRC, Charlotte has a chance to auto-lose against those foxes, or at least come pretty dang close.

[Dark Holy Elf]

If Charlotte is being doubled by foxes (or much of anything post-promotion) something has gone very wrong with your quest to use her as a combat unit and it should probably be aborted.

I knew I was forgetting something. Sorry about that! The higher-stat generals, IIRC, have Wary Fighter, which means that they need to be OHKO'd, or someone else needs to give them a hand. I distinctly remember Camilla not being able to ORKO the Chapter 18 guys on Hard.

Yeah you don't typically OHKO those guys (one of the few things I can see hyping crits against) but armour weakness makes a big difference in 2HKOing them vs. not.

[Shadow Mir]

If Charlotte is being doubled by foxes (or much of anything post-promotion) something has gone very wrong with your quest to use her as a combat unit and it should probably be aborted.

Yeah you don't typically OHKO those guys (one of the few things I can see hyping crits against) but armour weakness makes a big difference in 2HKOing them vs. not.

It has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with the crit evade penalty she suffers as a Berserker, which she's assumed to be promoting to, more often than not.

Edited December 24, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Dark Holy Elf]

That comment wasn't a reply to yours, but to Eclipse's question of if Charlotte has enough speed to avoid being doubled.

Charlotte's crit evade is indeed a bit of a problem though in the specific case of the foxes who have great evasion but only so-so defence you should be using bronze almost all the time anyway which does help some.