PKL's Conquest Tier List v1.1

[-Cynthia-]

Camilla is very borderline on OHKOing generals with the Hammer, she definitely likes a Str tonic and a +Str Pair Up (like Arthur or Keaton) to manage this.

Edited December 24, 2016 by -Cynthia-

[Alastor15243]

Hey, so, two things, a question and a general thought:

Question: who do people generally pair Jakob up with?

Thought: Should availability really be considered in a tier list? Surely the question of "who of the units I have do I want to field on this map?" shouldn't factor how long you've had them for, that doesn't make them any more or less useful for the next map outside of supports. Especially since your army size is limited and gradually increasing. So since Velouria is almost guaranteed to be better than Dwyer once you eventually get her, why should Dwyer be higher on the tier list just because he's been available for longer? How is that relevant when deciding who to field and who to bench?

Edited December 26, 2016 by Alastor15243

[eclipse]

In efficiency, it would probably be Corrin.

I think availability should be considered to an extent. The likes of Flora/Izana will do a lot less than servant/Odin, due to not being around. A short break between character A and character B will probably be trivial.

[GoXDS]

imo, availability only matters in two ways. one, both have about even utility at any one map that they're both available. then it comes down to availability to decide who was more beneficial to your run as a whole. so availability is more whole run perspective rather than chapter. or, if you want to invest resources into Unit A or B but both have the same utility gain from the perspective of 1 chapter, you could have invested those resources into the one with more availability assuming you are able to invest those resources before the other unit way earlier (therefore, would've had more utility as a whole)

the second is if any units become unavailable at certain points after they're available. not particularly relevant in Fates since that's not as common (compared to say RD... the availability issues there, yo)

[twistedxgrace]

Hey, so, two things, a question and a general thought:

Question: who do people generally pair Jakob up with?

I think Nyx, Azura, and the female avatar are the most common wives for Jakob for both supports and stats. The ones I've done are Orochi, Mozu, Beruka, Felicia, and Setsuna, though.

[PKL]

Tier List v1.1 is out!

Changes made:

-Azura below Corrin: Corrin is around for longer and his/her combat and variety of roles is so good.

-Silas down to High Tier. Not consistent or good enough to be among the likes of Xander Corrin etc. He's good but isnt automatically amazing all the time.

-Effie down to Upper Mid Tier. While shes a great combat unit and an early one at that, she does have her set of issues keeping up. She does also eventually fall off in usefulness.

-Kaze down to Upper Mid Tier. He's a great offensive unit but his durability tends to limit that a bit too much for him to be in High Tier.

-Leo to Top Tier. He's about as amazing as Xander and even better sometimes. Can take hits from both sides and dish out the hurt back at the enemy. Not hard to fix his spd either.

-Beruka up to High Tier above Silas. She has amazing bases in anything not spd, flies, joins early and has a ton of useful things going for her. Her spd isnt that hard to fix early on and her tankiness, flight and high skl makes her valuable in a lot of maps.

-Upper Mid Tier now just Mid Tier. Peri and Gunter merged with Mid Tier.

-Keaton up a few spots for his useful pairup bonuses and better combat than Charlotte. Charlotte down to Low Tier. Laslow down to Low tier.

-Added rules to the OP.

-Added Previous Version to the OP.

Axe Wyvern Waifu Tier

Camilla

Top Tier

Corrin

Azura

Xander

Jakob (Ch2)

Leo

High Tier

Beruka

Silas

Niles

Felicia (Ch2)

Mid Tier

Effie

Kaze

Elise

Selena

Shura

Arthur

Peri

Gunter

Low Tier

Nyx

Keaton

Charlotte

Laslow

Flora

Felicia (Ch16)

Izana

Bottom Tier

Jakob (Ch16)

Benny

Mozu

Odin

[spoiler=List in Picture form]

Axe Wyvern Waifu Tier

Top Tier

High Tier

Mid Tier

Low Tier

Bottom Tier

Doubts atm: All of bottom tier is shaky. Im not sure whether mozu is better than odin if benny is better than all of them or if jakob is the worst character of em all. I really dont know with these bad units.

Effie vs Kaze: Effie can do more combat than kaze due to her bulk but kaze has 1-2 range with doubling over here. Not sure what to value more. I know I value Effie more than Kaze usually so I put her above him for now.

[-Cynthia-]

Kaze has 1-2 range with doubling, but Effie can OHKO a lot of early/midgame enemies with a Javelin given the right Pair Up+ tonic etc. Availability makes me lean towards Effie here.

Bottom tier: I'm inclined to say Odin>Benny>Jakob>Mozu. Odin can chip in Chapters 8-10, use magic ballista in C10, provide +Mag Pair Up which can be useful for Camilla or certain Corrin builds. Benny's Pair Up bonuses can be decent for someone like Selena or possibly Camilla- he could also probably be good in the fox chapter if promoted to General. Jakob being a second string staffbot is probably better than Mozu taking a Heart Seal and a long time to contribute.

Feels like a big gap between Felicia(1st) and Elise. Elise has 1 more Mov(2 after promotion), can activate DVs and her personal is more useful as a lead unit. Felicia has combat for a long time while Elise doesn't, though Felicia's combat is pretty bad. Felicia is also a better Pair Up unit, though I'm not sure anyone but Leo or maybe Corrin wants her. Felicia does have decent early offensive potential with a Heart Seal (to Strategist) I guess and would then have more Mov than Elise- but is this worth an early Heart Seal?

Edited December 31, 2016 by -Cynthia-

[Alastor15243]

Ahhh. No visiting other my castles? That explains why bronzelocking is considered such a damning issue for the purposes of this tier list, because even a little other-castle visiting allows forged bronze weapons to turn much of the game into a joke. In fact forged bronze weapons are arguably the best weapons in the game for anybody not in a crit or procstacking build, since they're the most accurate and just as powerful as any level of iron weapon you could buy for the same amount of gold.

But then even without other castle visiting it's feasible to build up enough gems to keep them from being the limiting factor on what you can forge.

Hey, do you think it might be a good idea for there to be a separate tier list for leads and pairup bots, because some units are definitely better pairup bots than others (require less investment, have better classes, or already start out in the best classes), and it seems most of the best pairup bots (who are therefore very much worth a deployment slot) are consistently low on this tier list because they're not good for much else?

Either that or, since what makes a good pairup bot depends highly on who they're supposed to be paired with, maybe any arguments about what pair-up bonuses they provide should be ignored entirely as not a part of this particular discussion?

[PKL]

Kaze has 1-2 range with doubling, but Effie can OHKO a lot of early/midgame enemies with a Javelin given the right Pair Up+ tonic etc. Availability makes me lean towards Effie here.

Bottom tier: I'm inclined to say Odin>Benny>Jakob>Mozu. Odin can chip in Chapters 8-10, use magic ballista in C10, provide +Mag Pair Up which can be useful for Camilla or certain Corrin builds. Benny's Pair Up bonuses can be decent for someone like Selena or possibly Camilla- he could also probably be good in the fox chapter if promoted to General. Jakob being a second string staffbot is probably better than Mozu taking a Heart Seal and a long time to contribute.

Feels like a big gap between Felicia(1st) and Elise. Elise has 1 more Mov(2 after promotion), can activate DVs and her personal is more useful as a lead unit. Felicia has combat for a long time while Elise doesn't, though Felicia's combat is pretty bad. Felicia is also a better Pair Up unit, though I'm not sure anyone but Leo or maybe Corrin wants her. Felicia does have decent early offensive potential with a Heart Seal (to Strategist) I guess and would then have more Mov than Elise- but is this worth an early Heart Seal?

Yeah effie over kaze is probably right. Its all theory on felicia since i havent done it myself but she can go strategist since jakob doesnt exist. The issue is how bad her def already is and it makes it even worse. The offense is promising though. Felicia herself might drop down to where elise is tbh and ive thought about doing it a few times now but im not sure yet. Has someone used strategist felicia and care to chime in?

[Dark Sage]

What exactly is Effie OHKOing with a Javelin early on? The only thing I can think of are like C8 Dark Mages, but Silas can also one shot them with an Arthur pair up + tonic + a strength proc. Silas can also ORKO all the fighters with a speed proc + tonic too and ORKO Flora if he gets two speed procs (not likely but possible).

There's also the dubiousness of Effie doing anything in C8 other than visit a village in the first place.

Odin should just get out of bottom tier. He's bad, but he has early chip to his name, he can do ok as an early promo Dark Knight for awhile or can be a decent longterm unit with investment (1-2 range and a horse is good), or just be a pair up bot for Camilla. It's a lot better than Benny basically doing nothing and Mozu simply sucking and dying.

I also think Odin > Laslow because Laslow really is useless, but I know that's a lot less popular an opinion so :/

Edited January 1, 2017 by Dark Sage

[-Cynthia-]

I'd say the biggest use of Effie with a Javelin is OHKOing Ninjas in chapters like C10/C11/C12 (and in C17 with all the ninjas obviously). She can also OHKO the Mages in C11 and often some of the Archers. I agree that C8 isn't a good chapter for her, but Kaze isn't even there so that's not really helping him in this comparison.

I don't think early promo Odin is very good considering he's five levels from promotion that you have to grind out- and even if you get him to 10/1 you have a unit with 10-11 Mag, 11 base speed and lowered exp gain from promoting. Not sure how quickly you think he'll be getting promoted, but those stats don't last very long (they're worse than Laslow's unpromoted offensive bases for reference).

[guedesbrawl]

Tier List v1.1 is out!

Changes made:

-Azura below Corrin: Corrin is around for longer and his/her combat and variety of roles is so good.

-Silas down to High Tier. Not consistent or good enough to be among the likes of Xander Corrin etc. He's good but isnt automatically amazing all the time.

-Effie down to Upper Mid Tier. While shes a great combat unit and an early one at that, she does have her set of issues keeping up. She does also eventually fall off in usefulness.

-Kaze down to Upper Mid Tier. He's a great offensive unit but his durability tends to limit that a bit too much for him to be in High Tier.

-Leo to Top Tier. He's about as amazing as Xander and even better sometimes. Can take hits from both sides and dish out the hurt back at the enemy. Not hard to fix his spd either.

-Beruka up to High Tier above Silas. She has amazing bases in anything not spd, flies, joins early and has a ton of useful things going for her. Her spd isnt that hard to fix early on and her tankiness, flight and high skl makes her valuable in a lot of maps.

-Upper Mid Tier now just Mid Tier. Peri and Gunter merged with Mid Tier.

-Keaton up a few spots for his useful pairup bonuses and better combat than Charlotte. Charlotte down to Low Tier. Laslow down to Low tier.

-Added rules to the OP.

-Added Previous Version to the OP.

Axe Wyvern Waifu Tier

Camilla

Top Tier

Corrin

Azura

Xander

Jakob (Ch2)

Leo

High Tier

Beruka

Silas

Niles

Felicia (Ch2)

Mid Tier

Effie

Kaze

Elise

Selena

Shura

Arthur

Peri

Gunter

Low Tier

Nyx

Keaton

Charlotte

Laslow

Flora

Felicia (Ch16)

Izana

Bottom Tier

Jakob (Ch16)

Benny

Mozu

Odin

Effie: when does effie ever fall off? in all maps of the main game--ALL MAPS--there are squishy units that she can destroy on her own or with minimal attack stance help, either against true squishies or against people that for her are squishies because effective damage. And besides THAT, with minimal defensive augmentation she can be an extremely useful bait as long as there is nothing magical involved. If anything i'd argue effie has a bad start, which isn't really true but her performance in chapters 7 and 8 are by far Effie's lowest points in the game.

Kaze is, imo, the game's best unit to spend at least one Seraph Robe on. The sheer amount of things he can bait if not straight up kill in a single turn with some defensive help later on is insane. As one of the few shuriken users you have in the game, especially on a run without Felicia, having someone that can attack stance and safely apply debuffs int he time period where promoted enemies show up often and your unpromoted units still need to do stuff is helpful.

I'd argue that, regardless of your playstyle, both Effie and Kaze are straight up at the top of the NEXT tier (like Cynthia, i'd argue that availability is what solidifies Effie above kaze). Unlike Beruka, who is totally out of her league in that tier list and deserves being mid tier at best

Beruka has a massively awful combination of Bad offensive game (mediocre STR and SPD, which means her damage is low and Javelins are dangerous) and Bad defensive game (is doubled often, and generally 1/3rd to half of the lategame maps demolish her because of traditional Wyvern drawbacks). You need to send her to either Berserker or General to fix her usability as a unit (unless you are using Keaton as her pair-up mule when you could do the exact opposite or give him to Camilla) and that gives up her utility traits of flight, rally defense, and MOV+DEF+STR pair-up stats. Luckily she does have good bases so the heart seal investment isn't a pressing matter and she contributes fairly well for the first 4 chapters she is in the party.

Selena suffers from a similar issue except she actually has a better defensive game but requires a heart seal (and a hit to said defensive game, via losing precious DEF and shurikenbreaker access) to have her utility game to be relevant. And selena's damage output is absurdly bad as a merc, and it doesn't get significantly better in any of her classes besides Hero.

Arthur needs to be a tier lower. He also suffers from similar issues that Beruka and Selena suffer, except worse. Arthur's damage is great, but his hit rates are consistently shaky when not on WTA or using forged irons as a Hero. He also suffers from the same problem in bulk Beruka has, except he has more HP than DEF and overall worse SPD unless he goes Zerk. And unlike the two above, he barely has any sort of utility, as Rally Strength requires giving up on many opportunities all 3 of his default promotion options give him because of sword access. Arthur makes a more mighty glacier-ish Silas which, while useful, requires a heart seal for an archetype that is bad in CQ if you don't have wary Fighter or Siegfried. As unlike Beruka he actually has a good DEF stat, he can become much, much more useful by grabbing Knight from Benny/Effie. That fixes his DEF and SPd problems all at once, at the expense of mobility. But requires some investment, and the road to Wary fighter is a long, unforgiving one.

Keaton succeeds at combat where these three above fail completely. He has the bulk to hang around non-magical dangerous areas if needed, has the damage and spd to assassinate key targets while not taking heavy damage, gives incredible pair-up bonuses, can completely subvert any sort of damage 50% of the time once he learns better odds (as counter attack damage rarely goes too far than 20% of what you take with Beastrune), and while he lacks 2 range... which by the way is irrelevant as he is likely ferried by a wyvern most of the time and can close in on just about anybody... he doesn't have to be very mindful of weapon triangle.

Odin needs to be moved to the "gamble" tier, lol. Yeah, he is not reliable... but Vengeance and forged Mjolnir (or better yet, Odin's Grimoire if its your anniversary item) can really bump his damage output. Er... in all seriousness, Heartseeker is still a good skill for the few chapters you'd want Odin in your party, so i think that at least justify bumping him up a tier.

Again, like Cynthia, i don't see how Elise and Felicia 1 can be justifiably put in a different tier, especially with Felicia1 higher. They do similar jobs, but Elise overtakes Felicia in regards to supporting (lily's poise is harder to setup but strong and works on everyone) and damage output. ESPECIALLY since Felicia requires a heart seal to really compare in either areas, as the higher MT of tomes and magic growth makes Strategist Elise significantly better than Maid Felicia, while the lack of Inspiration and Rally Resistance makes her a worse support unit.Felicia does have utility while Elise is staff-locked, but her damage output is bad without reclassing early, which gets rid of the one edge Felicia has over Elise: Tomebreaker isn't unviable to acquire. in fact, marrying Leo or Odin can make for a pricey investment by reclassing to Sorc to grab more skills (which IMO should be done before the final jump to Strategist), but with Servant 1's fast access to promoted skills i think we can all agree this is a very much worthy investment.

Elise's support and combat usefulness is simply too high for her to be hangin around mid tier. The only thing that stops her from being at Top tier is that huge chunks of chapters (if not 100% of it) are very resistant to your magic units. These include chapters 12, 17, 19, 20, 24, and 25. Mercifully some of those have enemies vulnerable to magic (such as spear fighters, MoAs, Onis and Blacksmiths), but the spread of Peggies and Ninjas... eh.

These are also the reason Leo should never be rated at Top tier, ever. (though he, at least, can safely use DVs in 21/24, and is not a hassle to protect in 17/13... at the expense of needing SPD buffing and having few support utilities to his name)

The lategame eventually catches on with Jakob's mediocre defensive spread. Waiting for Armored blow before going Pally or Wyvern helps, but while not as much as Beruka or Arthur, his defensive game sees problems later. Unlike Xander/Camilla/Azura/Corrin who never ever fall off He can skill stack to catch-up, but the resorce investment is also there to hold him back from going Top, from my POV.

Camilla is an awesome unit. An INCREDIBLE unit. But i don't think four chapters of awesomeness over Xander (who is absent) and Corrin (who has yet to catch-up until C15's grindfest if not favoriting him) makes her worth having a tier just for herself. Especially since her defensie game quickly is overshadowed by both of those two.

There's also the dubiousness of Effie doing anything in C8 other than visit a village in the first place.

Odin should just get out of bottom tier. He's bad, but he has early chip to his name, he can do ok as an early promo Dark Knight for awhile or can be a decent longterm unit with investment (1-2 range and a horse is good), or just be a pair up bot for Camilla. It's a lot better than Benny basically doing nothing and Mozu simply sucking and dying.

Before i address the first sentence, which almost gave me brain damage from how many of my neurons died after i read it (and each time i read it)...

Dark Knight is bad for Odin. Like, really bad.

Swords don't really do anything for Odin (he'd rather have forged Fimbs than Levin for crit boosting, and its cheaper, and no e/d-rank hells), and while he gets mobility, he loses on offense (lower magic/spd and i believe skl) while not getting enough bulk and skills to make up for that loss. Given how bad magic can become in CQ, i'd rather invest on maximizing his damage output, favoring the possibility of lucky crits/procs via the Sorc crit boost/vengeance/marginally higher SPD. He also gives more magic to Elise/Felicia which is really good for both, and he can swap in for them as his bulk, while nothing special, is good enough that he doesn't get one shotted by anything. There's also the issue of going pony right before Kitsune hell, but that's just one map and odin will suck there unless he goes Samurai.

If you are going to give Odin enough investment for mediocre payoff to justify him getting out of bottom in an efficiency run, might as well carry Mozu for a while longer and have much better results later.

Now for the cancer sentence.

Lets make it harder on us and assume whatever Servant 1 you have isn't riding a pony. So you have the servant at 6 MOV, with Silas and Elise at 7... while Corrin/Arthur/Mozu are at 5 MOV and Effie at 4.

Before the chapter starts: position the 3 higher MOv units as left as possible. Give Effie to one, and Arthur/Mozu to the other.

Turn 1: Paired units ride ahead close to Niles/Odin's spawn point. Corrin visits village. The other high MOV unit goes ahead but stops exactly 5 squares away from Corrin.

turn 2: Corrin pairs with the only unit in range. Said unit carries him to the battlefield. Given the DV's position you are NOt ever goign to activate that first DV with Elise, so it's not like Corrin wil be adventuring too far from it anyways.

Result: all of your team is in a position to be useful. Variations of this strategy all work, even with Effie visiting the village and a pony carrying her forward which is the least optimal variation.

While c8 is in no way a great Effie chapter, the nonsense you said and implied is not the reason for it. what you said is literal crap, awful, inexcusably bad strategy at all levels of play and any tier list configuration whatsoever. If you managed to clear the first chapter you should be smart enough to see the solution right away, since that is literally thousands of times harder and, you know, it's not actually hard.

[Alastor15243]

What are you talking about, Guedes? Silas and Beruka's defense growths are identical, and her base is quite high as well. How does Silas have better defense than her to any degree worth saying that Beruka's is bad?

[guedesbrawl]

Maybe i did in the past but i don't remember bring up Silas vs Beruka. Still

Defensively:

*Arrows are much, much more prevalent than beast killer+hammers

*Silas can benefit from Beruka's Rally Defense. Beruka cannot.

*Aura-wise Silas is often getting =2 Damaege taken over beruka because he cannot benefit from Demoiselee, and if goign Jakob you are never going out of your way to grab inspiration

*Silas's level 15 skill actually can make a difference defensively. Beruka still doesn't want to be fighting swords, overall.

*Minimal, but there's a chance of the Nohrain blade drop.

Offensively:

*Silas 's Elbow room is much easier to use and more impactful than Oportunist

*Silas can learn Luna

*Silas has higher STR

*Silas has better weapon triangle control

*Worst-case scenario Silas can make the jump to BK to grab shurikenbreaker.

Support:

*Shelter and Sing are, together, incredibly powerful and much more powerful than Lunge is. Xander generally doesn't want to be stuck with that role.

Mixed bag:

*Silas gets defender

*It is much more viable for him to get Wary fighter than Beruka

Edited January 1, 2017 by guedesbrawl

[Alastor15243]

Sorry, my mistake, you were comparing Beruka and Arthur and you mentioned Silas followed by a "he", I misread. But Arthur's defense growth is only 5% better, so it's not an issue of "bulk" so much as "effective damage", and that's ignoring the fact that Arthur needs extra care to avoid being critted to death when using him on enemy phase.

Also...

*Aura-wise Silas is often getting =2 Damaege taken over beruka because he cannot benefit from Demoiselee, and if goign Jakob you are never going out of your way to grab inspiration

1, I think you have that backwards, Silas is the one who benefits from Demoiselle, and 2, even if that were true, you have both between Elise and Jakob.

[PKL]

Does arthur really need to be lower? To whoever says he should: think about it. Whos below him? Besides peri, is there anyone there that could be better?

Arthur:

*joins early.

*provides good support bonuses and strong attack stance strikes at a moment in the game you want those.

*has the option to go cavalier. While this does make him silas-lite, its still better than whatever the lower tiers do.

*has an amazing kid that you might want to use anyway that gives you money and fixes arthurs lck problem when near him too.

*arthur doesnt really have problems hitting. He does have some 70s early on as a fighter but his skl growth or cavalier weapons (if that is a thing) will make that go away, provided you dont keep gamble on. Lck doesnt factor too much on hit tbh.

*you suceeded in lowering him maybe but only by 1 spot. Just realized through this that Peri is better since she doesnt need the seal to be a cavalier and arthur doesnt have too much availability or support utility over her.

As for felicia vs elise: i think felicia should just be lower. Not gonna lie, i dont use c2 felicia often enough to know how she does in efficiency so i kinda just assumed high availability and decent support throughout the whole game made her kinda good. I dont find elise good enough but i tend to undervalue pure healers in general. Shes not that hard to get to level 10 in efficiency and instapromo i suppose. Though shes never gonna be doing much on ep i guess that gives her decent player phase nuking on top of a pony and staves.

[Shadow Mir]

Ahhh. No visiting other my castles? That explains why bronzelocking is considered such a damning issue for the purposes of this tier list, because even a little other-castle visiting allows forged bronze weapons to turn much of the game into a joke. In fact forged bronze weapons are arguably the best weapons in the game for anybody not in a crit or procstacking build, since they're the most accurate and just as powerful as any level of iron weapon you could buy for the same amount of gold.

But then even without other castle visiting it's feasible to build up enough gems to keep them from being the limiting factor on what you can forge.

Hey, do you think it might be a good idea for there to be a separate tier list for leads and pairup bots, because some units are definitely better pairup bots than others (require less investment, have better classes, or already start out in the best classes), and it seems most of the best pairup bots (who are therefore very much worth a deployment slot) are consistently low on this tier list because they're not good for much else?

Either that or, since what makes a good pairup bot depends highly on who they're supposed to be paired with, maybe any arguments about what pair-up bonuses they provide should be ignored entirely as not a part of this particular discussion?

This is just me, but the problem with forging arguments is that if you have the wrong resource, the forging process slows to a crawl.

[-Cynthia-]

The thing with Arthur's Hit is while that it can get better, to gain levels he does have to hit things to kill them so it can be pretty rough if those ~70s don't go your way. Honestly, Arthur is probably better as a Pair Up partner for pretty much all the game, but he's a very early joining Pair Up that gives valuable bonuses. I'd say he's better than Gunter overall due to availability and more flexibility with support partners, even if Gunter has some more utility (possible flight, Rally Defense, Shelter) outside of Pair Up.

I was picturing Felicia going down rather than Elise going up yeah, but I too have only done Male Corrin on like one Conquest playthrough and didn't reclass Felicia so pure theory there.

[guedesbrawl]

Sorry, my mistake, you were comparing Beruka and Arthur and you mentioned Silas followed by a "he", I misread. But Arthur's defense growth is only 5% better, so it's not an issue of "bulk" so much as "effective damage", and that's ignoring the fact that Arthur needs extra care to avoid being critted to death when using him on enemy phase.

Also...

1, I think you have that backwards, Silas is the one who benefits from Demoiselle, and 2, even if that were true, you have both between Elise and Jakob.

About Beruka and Arthur, its not as much that one is better on defense than the other. Arthur actually is better due to getting Beruka's Rally, and having an easier time getting auras (as well as a chance later on of Arthur's axe but this is misc) and no specific weaknesses whatsoever... and possible easier access to WF via Effie marriage... but the thing is that he never gives you any utility. Especially since Axebreaker is extremely niche. That's why i was arguing for a lower position.

i actually forgot that Arthur's higher STR means he can clean-up better than people like Selena or Beruka if given the attack stance hit bonus to ensure he does the job, so i suppose he is fine in the same tie,r but perhaps in the lowest position there.

1- No, i just pressed the "s" key too lightly there. "she cannot benefit from demoiselle" is what i meant. Two auras requires more setup.

Does arthur really need to be lower? To whoever says he should: think about it. Whos below him? Besides peri, is there anyone there that could be better?

Arthur:

*joins early.

*provides good support bonuses and strong attack stance strikes at a moment in the game you want those.

*has the option to go cavalier. While this does make him silas-lite, its still better than whatever the lower tiers do.

*has an amazing kid that you might want to use anyway that gives you money and fixes arthurs lck problem when near him too.

*arthur doesnt really have problems hitting. He does have some 70s early on as a fighter but his skl growth or cavalier weapons (if that is a thing) will make that go away, provided you dont keep gamble on. Lck doesnt factor too much on hit tbh.

*you suceeded in lowering him maybe but only by 1 spot. Just realized through this that Peri is better since she doesnt need the seal to be a cavalier and arthur doesnt have too much availability or support utility over her.

As for felicia vs elise: i think felicia should just be lower. Not gonna lie, i dont use c2 felicia often enough to know how she does in efficiency so i kinda just assumed high availability and decent support throughout the whole game made her kinda good. I dont find elise good enough but i tend to undervalue pure healers in general. Shes not that hard to get to level 10 in efficiency and instapromo i suppose. Though shes never gonna be doing much on ep i guess that gives her decent player phase nuking on top of a pony and staves.

It does make her good, especially since you can heal with Felicia and focus on nuking thigns with Elise. The real problem is that it takes a couple seals to get her to a position where her offense is truly shining, and as a magic-based unit, she is stuck in a few chapters as staff/aurabot for the most part as vulnerable targets are very few. Tomebreaking utility is nice even though it requires some setup to shine on Chapter 26 (as long as someone ELSE is frozen, you just need to kill the heartseeker sorcs first), but compared to Elise she also has a limiting personal as it only works for buffing corrin, and she is usually not the best partner for any given situation beyond the first few chapters. (only good if you need a pair-up for mixed tanking, such as, say, C23's wall.)

-Cynthia-, on 01 Jan 2017 - 03:57 AM, said:

I was picturing Felicia going down rather than Elise going up yeah, but I too have only done Male Corrin on like one Conquest playthrough and didn't reclass Felicia so pure theory there.

(messed up my quoting lol

i think you guys undervalue healing, long-range healing, group-healing, freeze, entrap, silence, rescue, and auras, but well.

Felicia becomes a slightly weaker, slighlty slower Elise with higher skil and better skills if you go Maid->Sorc->Strategist. She can dodgetank bows, endure/dodge magic, do great damage to low RES targets like Onis, provide support...

Something like tomebreaker/bowbreaker/maleficent aura/demoiselle/Inspiration is what i'd aim for, though she can swap in Rally Resistance and Heartseeker depending on the map. And, if you are willing to set it up, she can destroy things with vengeance given how low her HP gets after counters. But it's not easy and, of course, not 100% reliable.

I was picturing Felicia going down rather than Elise going up yeah, but I too have only done Male Corrin on like one Conquest playthrough and didn't reclass Felicia so pure theory there.

Edited January 1, 2017 by guedesbrawl

[Shadow Mir]

About Beruka and Arthur, its not as much that one is better on defense than the other. Arthur actually is better due to getting Beruka's Rally, and having an easier time getting auras (as well as a chance later on of Arthur's axe but this is misc) and no specific weaknesses whatsoever... and possible easier access to WF via Effie marriage... but the thing is that he never gives you any utility. Especially since Axebreaker is extremely niche. That's why i was arguing for a lower position.

i actually forgot that Arthur's higher STR means he can clean-up better than people like Selena or Beruka if given the attack stance hit bonus to ensure he does the job, so i suppose he is fine in the same tie,r but perhaps in the lowest position there.

1- No, i just pressed the "s" key too lightly there. "she cannot benefit from demoiselle" is what i meant. Two auras requires more setup.

It does make her good, especially since you can heal with Felicia and focus on nuking thigns with Elise. The real problem is that it takes a couple seals to get her to a position where her offense is truly shining, and as a magic-based unit, she is stuck in a few chapters as staff/aurabot for the most part as vulnerable targets are very few. Tomebreaking utility is nice even though it requires some setup to shine on Chapter 26 (as long as someone ELSE is frozen, you just need to kill the heartseeker sorcs first), but compared to Elise she also has a limiting personal as it only works for buffing corrin, and she is usually not the best partner for any given situation beyond the first few chapters. (only good if you need a pair-up for mixed tanking, such as, say, C23's wall.)

i think you guys undervalue healing, long-range healing, group-healing, freeze, entrap, silence, rescue, and auras, but well.

Felicia becomes a slightly weaker, slighlty slower Elise with higher skil and better skills if you go Maid->Sorc->Strategist. She can dodgetank bows, endure/dodge magic, do great damage to low RES targets like Onis, provide support...

Something like tomebreaker/bowbreaker/maleficent aura/demoiselle/Inspiration is what i'd aim for, though she can swap in Rally Resistance and Heartseeker depending on the map. And, if you are willing to set it up, she can destroy things with vengeance given how low her HP gets after counters. But it's not easy and, of course, not 100% reliable.

I was picturing Felicia going down rather than Elise going up yeah, but I too have only done Male Corrin on like one Conquest playthrough and didn't reclass Felicia so pure theory there.

Erm, I don't think that weapons like Arthur's Axe and Odin's Grimoire are going to be allowed...

Also, my reservation with making Felicia a Sorcerer is that short of marrying a Corrin with the Mage talent, she needs either to marry Odin (a low tier) or Leo (who comes late-ish), or A+ Flora, who comes late.

Edited January 1, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Sweet_Basil]

I feel like Benny is underrated, I find him quite useful especially after he promotes and gets his level 5 skill.

[guedesbrawl]

For the other post that was in the last page: named weapons were just side notes, not real arguments. (though seriously, Sorc Odin with his Grimoire+2 has over 50% crit on everything)

Felicia does need to stick to a dark mage like clue for a while, but i think the pair-up bonuses are very much worth it. Sorc odin gives Felicia a big bonus of +7MAG. The Bonus with leo? Smaller, but she will be giving him +5SPD at S rank, which is part of the process of making Leo really good.

The chapters between Leo joining and their S rank are essentially a mix of "magic sucks, don't even try" and "flame shuriken is ridiculous" maps, so her performance won't suffer too much from staying as a maid, as she would either still be really strong or actually would rather still have staffbotting to her name until then. Conversely, the trip from Sorc to strategist only requires 4 levels or so, which she can get pretty easily between Chapters 20 and 22, so that she has Bowbreaker just in time for 23/24.

I feel like Benny is underrated, I find him quite useful especially after he promotes and gets his level 5 skill.

they are doing an "efficiency" self--imposed restriction as the base for the tier list so carrying Benny's usbpar offensive til 20/5 or even just 15/5 hurts him a LOT.

[Shadow Mir]

For the other post that was in the last page: named weapons were just side notes, not real arguments. (though seriously, Sorc Odin with his Grimoire+2 has over 50% crit on everything)

Felicia does need to stick to a dark mage like clue for a while, but i think the pair-up bonuses are very much worth it. Sorc odin gives Felicia a big bonus of +7MAG. The Bonus with leo? Smaller, but she will be giving him +5SPD at S rank, which is part of the process of making Leo really good.

The chapters between Leo joining and their S rank are essentially a mix of "magic sucks, don't even try" and "flame shuriken is ridiculous" maps, so her performance won't suffer too much from staying as a maid, as she would either still be really strong or actually would rather still have staffbotting to her name until then. Conversely, the trip from Sorc to strategist only requires 4 levels or so, which she can get pretty easily between Chapters 20 and 22, so that she has Bowbreaker just in time for 23/24.

they are doing an "efficiency" self--imposed restriction as the base for the tier list so carrying Benny's usbpar offensive til 20/5 or even just 15/5 hurts him a LOT.

Even then, I'd expect them to just get b& outright. Also, I consider forging special weapons (e.g. Mjölnir) impractical.

Assuming you went out of your way to make it happen, I wouldn't expect Felicia to be able to marry Leo until what, chapter 21? And that's assuming you picked a male Corrin, else it'd be pushed back even further.

Edited January 5, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Alastor15243]

Say, is there anything else besides singing abuse that makes shelter such a valuable skill, or is that all it takes to make it considered so valuable on this tier list?

[eclipse]

Other applications of Shelter:

- Have a staffbot get way closer than they should to the action, then hide them away

- Fix attack stance issues (as in, someone whiffed, and your plan has just gone to bits)

- Emergency formation fixing when you realize that Pass is a skill that certain enemies have

- Probably a bunch more that I haven't done yet