PKL's Conquest Tier List v1.1

[Jedi]

Everyone has access to speed food, but it's up to chance as to when you come across the first one to duplicate in arena.

edit: and I guess it's also up to chance that Leo is the one who gets the boost. At least if you get sent a Chief's Hat, you can always get +2 spd out of your meals.

Thanks for clarifying, Its actually been awhile since I fired up Fates so the reassurance is very appreciated.

[eclipse]

That IS a good question!

Is cooking/forging a part of this tier list?

[Elieson]

I'd assume Random elements like Cooking benefits, and Outside elements like WiFi-related shopping, are banned in this setting. Not like it's hard to go shopping for goodies these days but all that does is soak up time

[eclipse]

Cooking can be manipulated, since the RNG is set. Thus, you can see whether or not the dish you get fails. If it doesn't fail, then it guarantees a certain stat goes up. May be helpful with stuff like benchmarks, since it's usually Str/Mag/Spd and sometimes Def/Res that are considered - and all five of them can be controlled with food!

Edited December 14, 2016 by eggclipse

[General Horace]

for what it's worth leo doesn't need food bonuses to double, people must be not giving him speed pairups or something weird tbh.

[Shadow Mir]

Cooking can be manipulated, since the RNG is set. Thus, you can see whether or not the dish you get fails. If it doesn't fail, then it guarantees a certain stat goes up. May be helpful with stuff like benchmarks, since it's usually Str/Mag/Spd and sometimes Def/Res that are considered - and all five of them can be controlled with food!

I guess, but with the kitchen being unreliable for the majority of the game, I don't see it as a legitimate argument.

[Elieson]

I guess, but with the kitchen being unreliable for the majority of the game, I don't see it as a legitimate argument.

It's PKL's tier list though. In an extremes, anything-goes environment, it'd be allowed.

Let's await criteria from the OP, or just outline options with each considered, rather than debating the legitimacy of the point on the thread itself.

[-Cynthia-]

for what it's worth leo doesn't need food bonuses to double, people must be not giving him speed pairups or something weird tbh.

Yeah just give him a Felicia or Adventurer Nyx support and a speed tonic and he should be pretty good to go. Maybe a Speedwing if you're feeling generous. The reclassing for more speed is generally unnecessary IMO.

[Shadow Mir]

Having thought about it, I think Silas needs to get spiked - Speed woes and a personal skill that's questionable in usability at best (I'd want Corrin healthy and in the thick of the action) are damning imho.

Edited December 14, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Jedi]

Having thought about it, I think Silas needs to get spiked - Speed woes and a personal skill that's questionable in usability at best (I'd want Corrin healthy and in the thick of the action) are damning imho.

Even if those mattered as much as you think they do, (easily fixed and more reliable than you'd expect). He's still the earliest character with access to one of the best skills in the game Shelter, not to mention the excellent Elbow Room.

[Dark Holy Elf]

"Fixing" below average speed in Conquest is possible but not trivial since there are quite a few characters who want more speed than they have. Speedwings / speed pairups are finite, and the latter have their own drawbacks (no attack stance, eating a unit slot, etc.). And unlike Leo/Xander, you don't get doubled 1-2 range out of a major +spd investment in Silas.

Shelter's a great skill, but does not an instant high tier make. (And if you think it does, Peri needs to be higher. I know a lot of people value availability more than I do, but still, it's only five maps.)

[Shadow Mir]

Even if those mattered as much as you think they do, (easily fixed and more reliable than you'd expect). He's still the earliest character with access to one of the best skills in the game Shelter, not to mention the excellent Elbow Room.

Maybe, but Silas being in Top is still stupidiculous, far as I'm concerned. Shelter's nice and all, but it's not a recipe for instant high tier. Anyways, while it might be possible to fix his speed, the resources to do so are limited, and leaving your main character half dead and unhealed is just stupid, as far as I'm concerned.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[-Cynthia-]

I'm kinda questioning Laslow being a tier over Keaton. Not sure if this is an reaction to people overrating Keaton(which happens quite a bit), but Keaton's auto Beastbane and high physical durability seem better than....Laslow's ability to use the Armorslayer? They're both subpar units when it comes down to it, due to lacking a mount or 1-2 range but I think Keaton brings more to the table. Keaton is also a better Pair Up for Camilla/Effie/whoever than Laslow which is probably the most use you'll get out of them in the long term.

Maybe Laslow's placement is based on Ninja Laslow? I haven't played around with that much, although E daggers in C13 seems pretty bad.

[General Horace]

100% agree with that, Laslow as a combat unit is weak and slow with mediocre durability. Keaton is better combatwise and they're roughly equal as a pairup bot, I don't think they're far apart overall. Laslow has his rally but tbh I never find myself actually using it.

[eclipse]

Does anyone in their right mind reclass Laslow to Ninja? It helps with his Speed, and regaining swords on promotion is nice.

Edited December 15, 2016 by eggclipse

[Augestein]

Does anyone in their right mind reclass Laslow to Ninja? It helps with his Speed, and regaining swords on promotion is nice.

Yes. A guy that can either rally people or debuff enemies? Awesome. I honestly wish he was a ninja at base rather than needing a heart seal.

And I agree that food should totally be counted as a thing. It's not that unreliable unless you have people like Keaton cook.

[Gwimpage]

Reclassed Ninja!Laslow is actually pretty similar to Kaze in that Laslow is -35%Spd and gains +35%Lck/15%Def over Kaze. It's definitely not worth the hassle since at Laslow's best he's another 1-2 range combat unit in a route full of movement based objectives. I'm guessing the placement is his rally skill that gives Corrin or whoever a bit more damage against Takumi for free, but it's largely a trivial boost for the majority of the game.

[Shadow Mir]

Yes. A guy that can either rally people or debuff enemies? Awesome. I honestly wish he was a ninja at base rather than needing a heart seal.

And I agree that food should totally be counted as a thing. It's not that unreliable unless you have people like Keaton cook.

You do realize that you just stated a reason why food SHOULDN'T be an argument (the possibility that whoever is in the mess hall is one of the bad cooks)? Also, I think you give the kitchen way too much credit - it only affects half the party for a majority of the game. You might as well consider surges a legit argument if you're going that route.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Augestein]

You do realize that you just stated a reason why food SHOULDN'T be an argument (the possibility that whoever is in the mess hall is one of the bad cooks)?

You can just pass on Keaton cooking though. Heck, you can pass on anyone cooking. Things like "adjective" flair shouldn't be counted, but I think regular cooking SHOULD be counted. You can reliably walk into a map with +1 str/ + 1 spd every time by having meat and milk prepared before a map. As long as you keep the arena around to ensure that you always have +1 meat / +1 milk, you can keep the food you need around for pretty much forever.

The reason I throw people like Keaton out is because his stuff is truly random doing stuff like -2 str/-2def, but + 2 str! The reason it should be counted is because the effects can be replicated reliably. Put a hat on someone to cook more frequently-- I generally capture generics as much as possible just to ensure that they are the chefs instead of lousy cooks like Arthur for instance. If Arthur is a chef, you check to see if it screws up, and if it does, pass. Even better/worse, is that you can just defend your castle and it redoes a roll, or just wait a few (and it'll reroll again) if we are banning Wi-Fi interaction. I see no reason to ban these because it's considerably more reliable than many of the other things.

I'm not going to count stuff like the lottery where Camilla appeared every other chapter and gave me an axe every chapter.

[Shadow Mir]

You can just pass on Keaton cooking though. Heck, you can pass on anyone cooking. Things like "adjective" flair shouldn't be counted, but I think regular cooking SHOULD be counted. You can reliably walk into a map with +1 str/ + 1 spd every time by having meat and milk prepared before a map. As long as you keep the arena around to ensure that you always have +1 meat / +1 milk, you can keep the food you need around for pretty much forever.

The reason I throw people like Keaton out is because his stuff is truly random doing stuff like -2 str/-2def, but + 2 str! The reason it should be counted is because the effects can be replicated reliably. Put a hat on someone to cook more frequently-- I generally capture generics as much as possible just to ensure that they are the chefs instead of lousy cooks like Arthur for instance. If Arthur is a chef, you check to see if it screws up, and if it does, pass. Even better/worse, is that you can just defend your castle and it redoes a roll, or just wait a few (and it'll reroll again) if we are banning Wi-Fi interaction. I see no reason to ban these because it's considerably more reliable than many of the other things.

I'm not going to count stuff like the lottery where Camilla appeared every other chapter and gave me an axe every chapter.

Here's the problem:

(1) The Chef's Hat is unavailable until like what, chapter 21? On top of that, it requires 30 Quartz, which you only have a 1-in-6 chance of having in your castle.

(2) The Mess Hall only affects half your party for most of the game. That's hardly what I'd call reliable. Are we really gonna make arguments based on kitchen boosts when you have no control over who gets boosted??? What arrant nonsense. And that's ignoring the fact that whether you get meat or milk in your castle is up to chance.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Augestein]

Here's the problem:

(1) The Chef's Hat is unavailable until like what, chapter 21? On top of that, it requires 30 Quartz, which you only have a 1-in-6 chance of having in your castle.

(2) The Mess Hall only affects half your party for most of the game. That's hardly what I'd call reliable. Are we really gonna make arguments based on kitchen boosts when you have no control over who gets boosted??? What arrant nonsense. And that's ignoring the fact that whether you get meat or milk in your castle is up to chance.

1) Which is why in the early game I catch generics. That ups the chance of not running into people. Heck, in the early game, generics will still come out to cook when you don't have enough people in your troops. Generics are safe, reliable and useful. And in the early game it hits everyone because your army isn't at full capacity.

2) It hits about 30 people. I've seen 33 at most. That literally covers everyone in your army until you start having children. So don't recruit Corrinsexuals (especially useful if you aren't planning on using them), and if you're *that* hard pressed to ensure it hits the characters you want because you have super bad luck, kill the parents after you've recruited the child.

The example I used with meat and milk was just that: an example.

I mean we aren't talking something like Anna from Awakening where the variance of appearance and held items was incredibly wild and varied. Here? You can always get something. And in the event that you can't, you can substitute that for tonics, or even statues.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Augestein

[Shadow Mir]

1) Which is why in the early game I catch generics. That ups the chance of not running into people. Heck, in the early game, generics will still come out to cook when you don't have enough people in your troops. Generics are safe, reliable and useful. And in the early game it hits everyone because your army isn't at full capacity.

2) It hits about 30 people. I've seen 33 at most. That literally covers everyone in your army until you start having children. So don't recruit Corrinsexuals (especially useful if you aren't planning on using them), and if you're *that* hard pressed to ensure it hits the characters you want because you have super bad luck, kill the parents after you've recruited the child.

The example I used with meat and milk was just that: an example.

I mean we aren't talking something like Anna from Awakening where the variance of appearance and held items was incredibly wild and varied. Here? You can always get something. And in the event that you can't, you can substitute that for tonics, or even statues.

1) What I bolded is BS, full stop. It only affects half the units in your army until level 3, no matter how big it is.

2) Two words: NOT. HELPING. That's what you're doing to your case. Also, see above point.

Edited December 15, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Augestein]

1) What I bolded is BS, full stop. It only affects half the units in your army until level 3, no matter how big it is.

2) Two words: NOT. HELPING. That's what you're doing to your case. Also, see above point.

1) That's why I captured generics. You can also use invasions to help pass the time if you really need to do non-Wi-Fi activities to have time pass. So again, hitting half your army when... Half of your army are generics is very helpful. If you hit half of your army and you have generics in them let's see, you may have 6 main units and it hits 3, but if you stuff 4 generics in there, it means it hits 7 instead of 5. Nothing I said is BS. Which again, even if you're not having all of your units being hit, it's still a reliable bonus.

2) How would killing them to alleviate luck not help?

Edited December 15, 2016 by Augestein

[Shadow Mir]

1) That's why I captured generics. You can also use invasions to help pass the time if you really need to do non-Wi-Fi activities to have time pass. So again, hitting half your army when... Half of your army are generics is very helpful. If you hit half of your army and you have generics in them let's see, you may have 6 main units and it hits 3, but if you stuff 4 generics in there, it means it hits 7 instead of 5. Nothing I said is BS.

2) How would killing them to alleviate luck not help?

1) That's assuming Niles is being used, and some people here don't give a crap about capture (See: Yours truly).

2) Because the suggestion is so inanely dumb, the only word for it is: UNACCEPTABLE!!!

Edited December 15, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Augestein]

1) That's assuming Niles is being used, and some people here don't give a crap about capture (See: Yours truly).

2) Because the suggestion is so inanely dumb, the only word for it is: UNACCEPTABLE!!!

But that's not my fault if you don't like using generics or capture. It's there, it helps. It lowers the chance of getting bad cooks, and it artificially inflates the party members to higher numbers than deployment which can help ensuring that most of your units are hit by a cooking effect.

2) Your the one that is absolutely hellbent on removing luck aspects. Haha.