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But that's not my fault if you don't like using generics or capture. It's there, it helps. It lowers the chance of getting bad cooks, and it artificially inflates the party members to higher numbers than deployment which can help ensuring that most of your units are hit by a cooking effect.

2) Your the one that is absolutely hellbent on removing luck aspects. Haha.

2) What's laughable is the lengths you're willing to stoop to to present the kitchen as a legitimate argument. I mean, really? Killing off your army just to increase the chance the right units benefit? Pathetic.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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2) What's laughable is the lengths you're willing to stoop to to present the kitchen as a legitimate argument. I mean, really? Killing off your army just to increase the chance the right units benefit? Pathetic.

You can kill off people to strategically aim the "randomly selected" statboost targets towards a more accurate pool, by having less people alive to get buffed that don't need it, while your kitchen is Lv 1/2.

I mean, I'd kill off Gunter and the 2nd ButlerMaid with no hesitation, if I needed to strategically balance my randomly assigned statboosts. Your reaction here is pretty ridiculous; try to refrain from judging people for how they choose to play a game that they've invested both time and money towards.

Edited by Elieson

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2) What's laughable is the lengths you're willing to stoop to to present the kitchen as a legitimate argument. I mean, really? Killing off your army just to increase the chance the right units benefit? Pathetic.

I don't see a point in keeping them at that point if you're not planning on using them. Seriously, the kitchen is more reliable than Radiant Dawn transfers, and people still counted those transfer bonuses back in the day. Not only do you have to get them to 20/20, but that character has to have an extremely good run. Not a single character is guaranteed to have a bonus on any stat. Let's take someone like say... Boyd or Jill for instance. Boyd with a speed bonus is great, and Jill with a strength bonus starts out more amazing than before. However, both of these characters have a very hard time hitting that caps that really want. Jill has around a 30% chance for strength and Boyd has like... I think 20% for speed. We shouldn't just throw out their best case scenarios in this case IMO just because it might not happen. The kitchen in this case? It's always there. You can always get a bonus. So we should always allow the kitchen to be used. What *shouldn't* be counted for a character however is having stuff like +1 str, +1 def, +1 spd at the same time. Because that's rare and very unlikely to happen even with standard meals being made. Does that make more sense where I'm coming from?

I'm not laughing at you, but at the fact that it IS kinda funny to think about Corrin killing his/her friends just to make sure that their units can get a bonus. It's such a video game thing that you can't help but laugh, you know?

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2) What's laughable is the lengths you're willing to stoop to to present the kitchen as a legitimate argument. I mean, really? Killing off your army just to increase the chance the right units benefit? Pathetic.

Killing off your own units is a legitimate strategy, especially in certain situations like speedruns.

-A TAS FE3 run sees Marth killing all 4 clerics before killing Medeus at endgame

-A TAS FE6 run sees Wolt getting killed to waste less time on later unit placements

-FE11 basically requires killing off units if you want to get certain units like Norne; a TAS run sees Gordin getting killed to save time

-A FE10 speedrun sees some of the player units killed to reach the required body count faster in 1 chapter

Edited by Roflolxp54

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You can kill off people to strategically aim the "randomly selected" statboost targets towards a more accurate pool, by having less people alive to get buffed that don't need it, while your kitchen is Lv 1/2.

I mean, I'd kill off Gunter and the 2nd ButlerMaid with no hesitation, if I needed to strategically balance my randomly assigned statboosts. Your reaction here is pretty ridiculous; try to refrain from judging people for how they choose to play a game that they've invested both time and money towards.

Well, excuuuuuse me for having this thing I call "standards"!

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In a normal run the mess hall really doesn't matter anyways. You are usually going to use it for speed, but it isn't hard to get units to double in CQ. There's things like speed pairups, tonics, Azura's skill, Rally Speed, and I think you get 4 speedwings.

That said, the mess hall should be taken into consideration because it is 7 chapters of guaranteed boosts. It can get pretty crazy like +2Spd, +2Def.

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Well, excuuuuuse me for having this thing I call "standards"!

I don't mind the debate, because since the OP hasn't yet stated one thing or another regarding cooking, opinions can be subjective, but if you have an opinion, just don't put down others' opinions. Your logic and preferences are fine, but your attitude isn't. Again, you seem like a smart fellow. Argue your point without insulting other points, and I'm certain that you'll achieve more support.

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I only use the kitchen in emergencies, as I tend to misappropriate stat boosters that aren't Speedwings, Goddess Icons, or Boots. In my opinion, Peri is the best cook, and I usually have a Chef's hat on hand to give to her. Also, Chapter 21 onward is when you need the kitchen the most, as even the most sound strategy can be blocked by RNG without stats, pair up, et cetera. You can't outplay the RNG, especially not in Conquest. The best you can do is make all the preparations you can, unless the kitchen hinders your stats (which it won't if Peri is your cook.).

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I only use the kitchen in emergencies, as I tend to misappropriate stat boosters that aren't Speedwings, Goddess Icons, or Boots. In my opinion, Peri is the best cook, and I usually have a Chef's hat on hand to give to her. Also, Chapter 21 onward is when you need the kitchen the most, as even the most sound strategy can be blocked by RNG without stats, pair up, et cetera. You can't outplay the RNG, especially not in Conquest. The best you can do is make all the preparations you can, unless the kitchen hinders your stats (which it won't if Peri is your cook.).

Jakob, Percy, and Anna are just as effective as Peri is in the Mess Hall; Jakob (assuming you play as the female avatar) can begin cooking the earliest out of all of them if you already have a Chef's hat available.

Edited by Roflolxp54

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I don't mind the debate, because since the OP hasn't yet stated one thing or another regarding cooking, opinions can be subjective, but if you have an opinion, just don't put down others' opinions. Your logic and preferences are fine, but your attitude isn't. Again, you seem like a smart fellow. Argue your point without insulting other points, and I'm certain that you'll achieve more support.

To be honest, I actually get Levant's arguments on it. "It's not 100% so we shouldn't count that." I get it, he's expressed hatred for things like Killing weapons, proc skills, criticals in your favor etc... but the problem is that most things in Fire Emblem aren't 100%. Even growths for that matter, so instead, we use averages so we can have some sort of grounding for comparison. In the case of cooking, it's in *just* the right range for me to personally give it a free pass. The kitchen is always there to be able to be used, so we can always guarantee goodies and bonuses for our units. We might not be able to have *all* of them, but we can say that they'll always be there. In this case, it can be a useful counter argument for a "make or break" sort of ordeal for characters.

I just think that a person just shouldn't use "lol cooking" as an argument for why a character is good, but you can consider say... A speed base cook for a unit in an argument if they literally are just 1 point away from doubling range or out of being doubled. As it's asinine to say "well that might not get hit by the cooking effect," because the same counter argument could be made that a person with speed might never proc their speed growth ever and remain at their base speed for the whole game outside of promotions.

I brought up RD transfers and Anna in Awakening, because these things are wild in their variance in comparison and have absolutely nothing static about them. RD transfer bonuses just plain flat out require a character to be RNG blessed to some degree to get a transfer bonus for darn near all of the characters sans Sothe (who just gets a straight transfer bonus at level 20 but without some degree of RNG blessing is actually worse than regular Sothe). Anna can do things like bring you Second Seals before you can feasibly have one, sell you weapons that you have no business having at that point, or... Just plain not show up.

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Wait, do explain how generics help get the most out of meals. Generics get meal bonuses just as the original characters do.

Static deployment. Like lets say you have 10 "special" units, and you have a deployment of 6. Cooking only allows 5 units to get a bonus. But if you have generics, it pushes your army numbers higher for what constitutes half. Even if it takes half of your current numbers, this is still useful. You aim for 2 generics. So that means that you'd get 6 people to eat the meal. Even if 2 generics could still get the meal, that's 1/6 (2/12 for what it's worth just so you know I'm not fudging numbers) units that are generic that'll get the meal. This means that more than likely, a generic won't be eating it over a special character. However, what changes is that the deployment numbers can now all have the meal bonuses.

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To be honest, I actually get Levant's arguments on it. "It's not 100% so we shouldn't count that." I get it, he's expressed hatred for things like Killing weapons, proc skills, criticals in your favor etc... but the problem is that most things in Fire Emblem aren't 100%. Even growths for that matter, so instead, we use averages so we can have some sort of grounding for comparison. In the case of cooking, it's in *just* the right range for me to personally give it a free pass. The kitchen is always there to be able to be used, so we can always guarantee goodies and bonuses for our units. We might not be able to have *all* of them, but we can say that they'll always be there. In this case, it can be a useful counter argument for a "make or break" sort of ordeal for characters.

I just think that a person just shouldn't use "lol cooking" as an argument for why a character is good, but you can consider say... A speed base cook for a unit in an argument if they literally are just 1 point away from doubling range or out of being doubled. As it's asinine to say "well that might not get hit by the cooking effect," because the same counter argument could be made that a person with speed might never proc their speed growth ever and remain at their base speed for the whole game outside of promotions.

I brought up RD transfers and Anna in Awakening, because these things are wild in their variance in comparison and have absolutely nothing static about them. RD transfer bonuses just plain flat out require a character to be RNG blessed to some degree to get a transfer bonus for darn near all of the characters sans Sothe (who just gets a straight transfer bonus at level 20 but without some degree of RNG blessing is actually worse than regular Sothe). Anna can do things like bring you Second Seals before you can feasibly have one, sell you weapons that you have no business having at that point, or... Just plain not show up.

The problem with the kitchen, as I see it, is that it's a coin flip - you don't know whether it'll go your way or not. And if my strategy requires a certain character being boosted, I might have to repeat that coin flip several times over, which is honestly a waste of time when I could just use a tonic on said character instead and get the same effect.

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About the tier list itself...

I'm kinda torn on Leo. His bases are pretty good, but you're stuck with them for several chapters since he doesn't gain hardly any exp until chapter 17 or so... but leveling him there is almost impossible since that place is incredibly anti-mage. By the time you hit chapter 18, enemy stats have caught up to him since he hasn't leveled (maybe once) and even his bulk is just meh anymore. He benefits a lot from Calamity Gate, but I don't think you can get one of those in Conquest save for visit/battle points.

I can see how he can be pretty awesome, though. Changing him to a strategist has been pretty helpful for me since it reduces his strength and defense in favor of magic and res, making him a bit more specialized. He can also heal to stay a bit relevant without taking kills and the speed bonus helps. If you get the Horse Spirit from Ophelia's paralogue, it allows him to double a lot of things without other investment (like a pair up or tonics).

Ironically, I've actually found Elise to be much more useful in the long run having been trained up as a Wyvern Rider -> Malig Knight than Troubadour -> Strategist. I've done this twice now, and she's been much more helpful. The class helps her gain some much needed bulk without murdering her other stats. Plus, too many things in Conquest have lances or shuriken. The bolt axe is really powerful and it helps significantly that you are one, not hitting an advanced class in which your only offensive option is E-rank tomes, and two, not ending up stuck with a weapon triangle disadvantage against most enemies that slaughters your hit rate to 60-70%.

Too bad training up Elise from E to C rank in axes on Lunatic is the worst thing ever, lol.

I don't know if I'd put Selena as high as she is... I've never been able to make much use out of her. Becoming a Sky Knight knocks her strength down quite a bit and I've found that her growths don't patch it back up enough. I agree with what Elieson said on page 1.

About Odin: "He will always be mediocre at best even if you do train him." Heh, my Odin was god-tier, but I will acknowledge that getting 5-7 points in 13 out of 28 levels is not very typical for him.

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The problem with the kitchen, as I see it, is that it's a coin flip - you don't know whether it'll go your way or not. And if my strategy requires a certain character being boosted, I might have to repeat that coin flip several times over, which is honestly a waste of time when I could just use a tonic on said character instead and get the same effect.

Which is why I argued that "base" cooking should be the only ones that matter and not people that have hilariously bad cooking or hilariously good cooking. Because I agree that talking about "good" chefs doesn't work because sometimes you get lucky with them, and sometimes you don't get lucky and get bad cooks like Arthur-- such as my Camilla example in the lottery with giving me axes. THAT'S too random to be argued for its existence, because this literally made my playthrough easier and is by no means what I'd call normal (on the flipside, I have a Jakob that refused to get speed at all, so I guess that's only fair). That allowed me to forge things that I had no business forging because Arthur appeared in the Smithy as well.

But the cooking effect itself is something that I don't see as bad enough to be on a coin flip. On a macro scale, I see the cooking as reliable enough on the account that it's always there. IE, to explain a bit better: let's use Arthur for a minute. His hit can be kinda shaky at moments. What I can argue is that I fed him a skill increasing meal and continue to talk about how this meal time can help Arthur be a better unit. Especially if I opt to give him a Secret Book as well. What I shouldn't do however, is within that same map of talking about Arthur with a hypothetical skill boost from food is mention an Arthur with a speed boost as well and consider both Skill!Arthur and Speed!Arthur in the same instance. The reason why it's not the same as say, tonics, is that even though tonics are cheap, they can add up over the course of a playthrough, and can and should count against the unit after awhile if they have to use them the entire game. Even more crazy is that I've heard of some people for instance that will literally reset the game over and over until they get the food types that they want-- which means that it's technically fair game to mention ANY of the foods just as long as you stay consistent with what foods you have.

I can honestly see both sides of the spectrum, and that's some of the reason I like Fates so much. There are so many ways to get what you want for units, stat boosting items, tonics, rallies, food, pair ups, standing adjacent to other units, forges... and even in some cases dances. I'll wait to see how the OP wants to do it, but I'm fine with it either way. I was just stating why I thought food should count. Make sense?

Ironically, I've actually found Elise to be much more useful in the long run having been trained up as a Wyvern Rider -> Malig Knight than Troubadour -> Strategist. I've done this twice now, and she's been much more helpful. The class helps her gain some much needed bulk without murdering her other stats. Plus, too many things in Conquest have lances or shuriken. The bolt axe is really powerful and it helps significantly that you are one, not hitting an advanced class in which your only offensive option is E-rank tomes, and two, not ending up stuck with a weapon triangle disadvantage against most enemies that slaughters your hit rate to 60-70%.

Case and point for why I really like Fates. That's nuts. I didn't even think about abusing the Bolt Axe for her damage...

Edited by Augestein

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The problem with the kitchen, as I see it, is that it's a coin flip - you don't know whether it'll go your way or not. And if my strategy requires a certain character being boosted, I might have to repeat that coin flip several times over, which is honestly a waste of time when I could just use a tonic on said character instead and get the same effect.

The problem is, tonics cost money, which you need to save for seals and stat boosters, and outside of Anna (which is a crapshoot in and of itself) and DLC, you aren't getting much without selling the streetpass weapons, which are certainly useful in Conquest.

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About the tier list itself...

I'm kinda torn on Leo. His bases are pretty good, but you're stuck with them for several chapters since he doesn't gain hardly any exp until chapter 17 or so... but leveling him there is almost impossible since that place is incredibly anti-mage. By the time you hit chapter 18, enemy stats have caught up to him since he hasn't leveled (maybe once) and even his bulk is just meh anymore. He benefits a lot from Calamity Gate, but I don't think you can get one of those in Conquest save for visit/battle points.

I can see how he can be pretty awesome, though. Changing him to a strategist has been pretty helpful for me since it reduces his strength and defense in favor of magic and res, making him a bit more specialized. He can also heal to stay a bit relevant without taking kills and the speed bonus helps. If you get the Horse Spirit from Ophelia's paralogue, it allows him to double a lot of things without other investment (like a pair up or tonics).

Bold: Actually, Ophelia's paralogue has a Calamity Gate.

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Bold: Actually, Ophelia's paralogue has a Calamity Gate.

The unfortunate thing there is that actually requires using Odin, or at least marrying him through My Castle battles, the latter of which is easier but also banned in drafts. The Calamity gate shreds Ninjas and Sky Knights, but getting it outside of Streetpass is almost not worth it. Almost.

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I think Kaze should be above Effie. His unique contribution of being able to take on all the mages in CQ makes him better. Chapters that he does really good in are 13(mages on the left side), 16(mages/sorcs on the left), 18(He can clear the entire top-right side on his own), 22(A bunch of mages on the right side), 24(Mages everywhere), 26(He can solo the enitre sorc room). Besides that, he still has decent combat vs non-magic enemies. He can one-round Ninjas and MNinjas in 17 and 25, one-round the mounted enemies in 18 with the beastkiller, one-rounds Kitsune/Nine-Tails in 19, one-rounds Falcos/Kinshis in 20,22,24.

Effie's role is easily replicated by a lot of other units. Xander, Camilla, Corrin all do what she does but better. Silas and Beruka can also do just as good as her.

Edited by avengerfive

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The unfortunate thing there is that actually requires using Odin, or at least marrying him through My Castle battles, the latter of which is easier but also banned in drafts. The Calamity gate shreds Ninjas and Sky Knights, but getting it outside of Streetpass is almost not worth it. Almost.

Well, the person I quoted did wind up mentioning Ophelia's paralogue, so yeah.

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Case and point for why I really like Fates. That's nuts. I didn't even think about abusing the Bolt Axe for her damage...

Absolutely, same here. Never would have thought about it if I hadn't done a Heart Class playthrough.

Bold: Actually, Ophelia's paralogue has a Calamity Gate.

Thanks, I was wondering after posting if I'd overlooked this.

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FWIW Camilla rocks socks with the Bolt Axe since she actually has a Magic stat to work with, which is pretty neat. She can use it in a reasonable timeframe, which is nice.

Elise, though good with a Bolt Axe, is:

1- a bit Frail for lunatic to be stuck with it...trade abuse to unequip it from her after she uses it or keeping her out of harms way is pretty relevant

2- Getting her from E-C rank takes a while, and on Lunatic, you're begging for her Staff use early on. Climbing her out of E-Axes is hard work, because you want to change her over asap, but then she's stuck doing almost nothing with a Bronze Axe, when things are relatively tight to begin with in terms of team needs. Jakob, if reclassed, leaves Elise as your only staffer for a long time (until Adventurer!Niles, or another SecondSeal burn). A Staffer is so important in Lunatic

Edited by Elieson

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Which is why I argued that "base" cooking should be the only ones that matter and not people that have hilariously bad cooking or hilariously good cooking. Because I agree that talking about "good" chefs doesn't work because sometimes you get lucky with them, and sometimes you don't get lucky and get bad cooks like Arthur-- such as my Camilla example in the lottery with giving me axes. THAT'S too random to be argued for its existence, because this literally made my playthrough easier and is by no means what I'd call normal (on the flipside, I have a Jakob that refused to get speed at all, so I guess that's only fair). That allowed me to forge things that I had no business forging because Arthur appeared in the Smithy as well.

But the cooking effect itself is something that I don't see as bad enough to be on a coin flip. On a macro scale, I see the cooking as reliable enough on the account that it's always there. IE, to explain a bit better: let's use Arthur for a minute. His hit can be kinda shaky at moments. What I can argue is that I fed him a skill increasing meal and continue to talk about how this meal time can help Arthur be a better unit. Especially if I opt to give him a Secret Book as well. What I shouldn't do however, is within that same map of talking about Arthur with a hypothetical skill boost from food is mention an Arthur with a speed boost as well and consider both Skill!Arthur and Speed!Arthur in the same instance. The reason why it's not the same as say, tonics, is that even though tonics are cheap, they can add up over the course of a playthrough, and can and should count against the unit after awhile if they have to use them the entire game. Even more crazy is that I've heard of some people for instance that will literally reset the game over and over until they get the food types that they want-- which means that it's technically fair game to mention ANY of the foods just as long as you stay consistent with what foods you have.

Outside of specific chefs, meals can't give a skill boost (disregarding the ones whose flairs affect a random stat, only Beruka has a Skill increasing flair, and even then, it's a measly +1).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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FWIW Camilla rocks socks with the Bolt Axe since she actually has a Magic stat to work with, which is pretty neat. She can use it in a reasonable timeframe, which is nice.

Elise, though good with a Bolt Axe, is:

1- a bit Frail for lunatic to be stuck with it...trade abuse to unequip it from her after she uses it or keeping her out of harms way is pretty relevant

2- Getting her from E-C rank takes a while, and on Lunatic, you're begging for her Staff use early on. Climbing her out of E-Axes is hard work, because you want to change her over asap, but then she's stuck doing almost nothing with a Bronze Axe, when things are relatively tight to begin with in terms of team needs. Jakob, if reclassed, leaves Elise as your only staffer for a long time (until Adventurer!Niles, or another SecondSeal burn). A Staffer is so important in Lunatic

Yeah, I hear you, hence my comment that getting Elise from E to C rank with axes on Lunatic is the worst thing ever. but it's absolutely doable. I managed on Lunatic with Effie as my sole healer until I got Leo, who took the Strategist role. I haven't had much of a problem with her frailty, but either way, it's been even less of a problem compared to being a Strategist.

The only point I meant to make is that Bolt Axe Malig Knight Elise has served me much better than Strategist Elise. I completely agree with you, otherwise, though, haha. Getting her there isn't optimal by any means and can blow up the synergy of the rest of your team. That's where it feels like tier lists can get complicated, in my opinion, as one unit's overall effectiveness can be dampened or heightened depending on the rest of your team...

Edited by Delfino

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Outside of specific chefs, meals can't give a skill boost (disregarding the ones whose flairs affect a random stat, only Beruka has a Skill increasing flair, and even then, it's a measly +1).

That was an example. It wasn't specifically meant to be a real one here. As for the flairs, that's not how they work. The character's flair is just the one that's more likely to appear. Even a good chef can mess up a meal on occasion. The reason that I mentioned someone like Keaton though was because his cooking is pretty much always a net negative. Even people like Arthur can still manage to whip up something good overall. That simply requires that you pick a stat that you don't care if you lose with Arthur and then gamble that you get one you like. And the effect is actually stronger overall for whatever stat you want.

I hate when post fudge up, has anyone else's posts been acting funny for them lately?

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