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Real life happened basically. Week full of work. I had enough time to read a few posts but not reply. Now there are too many posts and its hard to catch up. Ill do my best to remember and answer everything. If i forget something let me know.

I feel like you guys defended camilla well enough. Ill just add that base camilla can double c12 ryoma. Thats how stupid her bases are. Her bases are so good that shes not out of place joining in c16 in current drafts.

Silas: he could stand to go down to top of high tier maybe, ill need some more convincing. Idk i feel hes so low cost and he joins so early that ill keep him in top tier for now. He hits like a truck, joins early and is in a great class.

Leo: you guys are severly underrating leo. Base leo with a spd pairup (selena or felicia) and a tonic is already doubling most enemies in c16 except berserkers by a single point and heroes. He also orkos most of them with a mag tonic. He has enough bulk to clear the whole left side with no trouble at all too. He doesnt even need cooking to be amazing. Speaking of...

Cooking: i initially didnt assume this either. Its random so i feel it shouldnt be assumed until the point in the game it isnt, which i saw someone say was c21? I need more info on this matter to conclude this matter but for now its not a thing in this list.

Generics: theres so many possible generics and theyre kinda silly to tier. Generics are a definite no.

Difficuly: Lunatic Classic no grind.

DLC: i already answered this one but this ones a no. Dark flier and dread fighter alone fix anyone. Its dumb.

Elise: she is indeed the sole healer if jakob reclasses and felicia isnt around. But thats about it. She can really never be exposed to enemies so she really is just a player phase nuke and a mobile healer when she does promote. This is clearly worse than leo because he can actually get thrown at a bunch of enemies, survive and ko all of them in the process. Wyvern rider elise is the dumbest idea ive heard. Youre wasting jakob/corrin's heart seal to get a flying unit that cant do much combat until she either eventually hits C axes or its chapter 14 and u finally buy the bolt axe. Leo joins at the same time bolt axe elise would be a thing and i didnt need to invest a heart seal to make him KO everything...and he has better durability anyway than malig elise.

Beruka vs camilla: its not even close. Beruka has a whopping 10 spd less than camilla and will never catch up with camilla in the stats that matter.

Odin vs mozu: odin has one advantage i overlooked: he can chip with no heart seal investment. If mozu gets the heart seal, she does do better than odin though. But she wont, not with how limited they are early on...i think odin might move over her.

Corrin vs azura: corrin is with us all game and is always amazing. Its hard to compare them. Shelter dancing made me believe azura beats corrin in utility but horace thinks corrin is better. It could go either way and im indecisive atm. Ill leave azura over corrin for now.

Im also starting to believe horace on charlotte. She is bad at everything except being a pairup bot. She does that job well enough though...

Benny might move up. I undervalued him being able to immediately go gk and give move and str def on pairup.

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Leo is definitely underrated, his physical bulk is solid (about on par with Camilla's), he has a horse, he has good magical bulk and ridiculous magic and his speed is exactly like Xander's, i.e fixable with a pair up bot, tonic, and/or speedwings. He can also potentially get Horse Spirit or Calamity Gate too which are really good. He should definitely not be a tier below Xander and you could even make the case that Leo > Xander but I know not to push my luck.

Effie is way too high, she does absolutely nothing in 8 except visit a village, which even Mozu can do and her low move bites her in the butt for 9 and 10 and she's dependent on an early promotion to do anything useful, which will be tricky to get since she has a hard time getting exp. She's not that special once she's trained either, a lot of units can replicate her combat and her most noted feats (OHKOing Sages/Sorcerers) can also be done by someone like Silas or a boosted Peri/Wyvern Lord Jakob. Pretty much every other combat unit at least provides some utility when trained whether it be flight (Beruka), Shelter (Peri, Silas), or some other highly desirable trait. Effie only offers combat. I'd personally place her around Arthur's level, but at the very least she should not be a tier above Beruka.

Speaking of which, Beruka needs to move up a tier and has a case of being adjacent to Niles and Kaze. Her bases are absurd, she's only one speed or strength proc away from ORKOing all the Oni Savages in 11 with the proper pair up, assuming tonics and she's in a map that's pretty much 11 free turns of grinding (though she does miss the first three) where she actually contributes. Having done Chapter 10 on Lunatic without the use of Camilla or Elise or Haitaka (lol), I can confirm that as long as you have a strong enough Corrin, Silas, or Jakob, Camilla is not needed in 10, Beruka and Selena are all the reinforcements you need for that. Her only weak area is speed, which can be patched up pretty easily with tonics and Kaze/Selena pair up the latter of which she has a fast support with. She can replicate Camilla's contributions lategame, albeit not as well, but she's still capable and she has Fighter to pick up some really good skills lategame too. Like seriously, even if you half-ass and don't use her for fighting, she can still find ways to contribute by virtue of her class and bases.

Laslow is way the fuck too high. Like seriously, he's like fucking Oujay except he doesn't even give you an Armorslayer and you get nothing unique out of him. Master Ninja Laslow is overrated too, having used it myself, I can say confidently that he really is a piece of shit. He should drop to Low or Bottom tier, he's definitely not better than the lategame staffers, Nyx, or Keaton.

Felicia 2 needs to drop to bottom, she's absolutely terrible except as Leo's pair up bot and even then, Nyx is still better and Selena/Hero!Beruka have cases over Felicia 2 for that role as well.

Felicia 1 also needs to drop, she's so bad unless you reclass her to either Dark Knight or Malig Knight.

Nyx can rise a bit, she's gravy as a pair up bot for Leo (Adventurer and Bow Knight Nyx is the optimal choice) and she's really good for a short while as an early promoted Dark Knight; her performance in 11 and 13 alone is way better than whatever it is dipshits like Laslow or Keaton do. Keaton himself should not be a tier below Charlotte, he's a lot better than her at fighting and his pair up bonuses are just as good or even better than hers.

Odin at the bottom of the list is lol. He needs to go up a tier, he can at least chip early for no cost and he can also do the early/midgame Dark Knight thing Nyx does too, though not as well. He's also useful as a pair up slut for Camilla too; having her be able to ORKO at 1-2 range hitting resistance is absurdly good. He's yet another unit better than Laslow since he's around to help early on and he provides a better payoff when invested in anyway. If we're crediting units for their paralogue bonuses, then he definitely needs to get out of bottom because his paralogue provides really good items (Horse Spirit, Calamity Gate, Spirit Dust, Lightning).

On the subject of crediting units for their paralogue goodies, this could potentially affect the placements of Arthur (gives you lots of gold and a good kid) and Silas (Energy Drop, Nichol) as well. Not sure what you intend to do about that. I know in Silas's case, he'd have to split credit with Niles for recruiting Nichol, who's a really good unit on Lunatic assuming you don't get him ridiculously late.

Edited by Dark Sage

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^Eclipse asked PKL about it earlier, and PKL said that capture wasn't going to be considered.

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Elise: Wyvern rider elise is the dumbest idea ive heard. Youre wasting jakob/corrin's heart seal to get a flying unit that cant do much combat until she either eventually hits C axes or its chapter 14 and u finally buy the bolt axe. Leo joins at the same time bolt axe elise would be a thing and i didnt need to invest a heart seal to make him KO everything...and he has better durability anyway than malig elise.

Odin vs mozu: odin has one advantage i overlooked: he can chip with no heart seal investment. If mozu gets the heart seal, she does do better than odin though. But she wont, not with how limited they are early on...i think odin might move over her.

Don't knock it until you try it! I've had a level 5 Malig Elise, with a pair up and tonic, capable of one-shotting the Spear Masters in chapter 20 Lunatic while also having enough bulk to live two hits from them without tonics.

That being said, though, yeah. I never denied that the Wyvern Rider stage is awful and it is truly a huge pain in the ass getting her where she needs to be to be useful. It's more along the lines of something I wanted to point out as an interesting use for her.

However, I don't fully agree that "this character needs a heart seal, but they're not gonna get it because someone else is going to be using it" should even be a thing affecting their tier placement (especially since I don't think heart seals are even that difficult to get), but I may just be ignorant as to how FE tiers typically work.

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However, I don't fully agree that "this character needs a heart seal, but they're not gonna get it because someone else is going to be using it" should even be a thing affecting their tier placement (especially since I don't think heart seals are even that difficult to get), but I may just be ignorant as to how FE tiers typically work.

Pretty much if there is a resource that many units would like to use, then the person who gets the most usage out of it is the unit who is simply better all around and should be the main recipient of it. In FE10, there is a speed wing you get in Path 2 on Crimea that you can carry into to give it Haar on end game for the Crimea path. Many units would love to see a speedwing, but Haar will get the most mileage out of it. Therefore, why ever use a speedwing on a lesser unit when Haar does it better? Ignoring game now the main thing for that would be drafts.

Worse units will have that against them because you are clearly giving resources to a unit which is worse to merely make them workable. What is mainly means is that certain strategies such as Wyvern Rider Elise early should not really be much of a good data point to why she is better than some other character.

Now, if you want to talk about a resource that is easily gotten and really has no demand for, then by all means the data point for X character using some item is great. Tonics are cheap, and so it is not really a mark against someone who is trying to use a tonic. Not having to use a tonic to be useful is certainly a plus, but its slight one consideration to something like a seal you do not get for some time.

Edited by Vorena

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Elise ?! She has 2 Strength and 4 Defense as a level 5 Troubadour. Considering you reached level 10 to reclass at time, she won't get more than 1 or 2 points in theses stats (not even sure). Then you reclass to Wyvern Rider , getting, +6 Strength, +6 Def, that makes something like 11 Def and 9 Str. Here are Oboro's stats :

md5DDd6.jpg

With a Bronze Axe, she does 15 damage, less 14, + 0 for Weapon Triangle Advantage (E rank), that makes a pitiful 1 Damage, maybe x2 (not even sure considering Wyvern Rider's speed). She'll take 15+4+6-11 = 13 damage. She survives the hit,but that's all, she's gonna wrecked on the next turn because of Seal Strength and Def. And this Heart Seal should not be wasted like that when it's in a limited number until Capter 20 or something. I mean, she'd be much better as a Dark Falcon at this point (but that +10% Str growth in Str would be useless). Malig Knight may possibly work as her final class, but not for leveling. All these growth rates would be wasted (believe me, +10% growth in Def won't make her more bulky, nor the +15% in Strength) whereas she makes an infinitely better use of Troubadour/Strategist's growths (and caps later). And I'm not even sure you already met a Monk at this point, Chapter 7 is full of Faceless, Chapter 8 may have a Troubadour, I don't remember but I don't think so, and Chapter 9 has archers, spear fighters and Samurais. I prefer to recruit an archer to take down Pegs and use a second ballista in the next chapter anyway.

Really, dude, I'm not even sure how to reply to you when you've neglected basically every single X factor outside of raw stats. Pair-ups? Tonics? Forges? Meal bonuses? You need to learn to maximize your resources.

Btw, you forgot that Ch. 9 has a Shrine Maiden in the center with Enfeeble, but I usually just capture the one at Ch. 11, since Staves really aren't all that important early on.

Edited by Inference

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Really, dude, I'm not even sure how to reply to you when you've neglected basically every single X factor outside of raw stats. Pair-ups? Tonics? Forges? Meal bonuses? You need to learn to maximize your resources.

Btw, you forgot that Ch. 9 has a Shrine Maiden in the center with Enfeeble, but I usually just capture the one at Ch. 11, since Staves really aren't all that important early on.

Meal bonuses are much too random to be reliable for the majority of the game (and PKL also said they're also not a legit argument until the part where the randomness factor is gone, aka level 3). Forges require crapping away money (and I also have doubts about the legtitmacy of forging). Pair ups basically mean you're using two units' turns at once. Basically, it might be workable, but it requires a significant cost.

What's more, PKL also said no to generics.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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Effie is way too high, she does absolutely nothing in 8 except visit a village, which even Mozu can do and her low move bites her in the butt for 9 and 10 and she's dependent on an early promotion to do anything useful, which will be tricky to get since she has a hard time getting exp. She's not that special once she's trained either, a lot of units can replicate her combat and her most noted feats (OHKOing Sages/Sorcerers) can also be done by someone like Silas or a boosted Peri/Wyvern Lord Jakob. Pretty much every other combat unit at least provides some utility when trained whether it be flight (Beruka), Shelter (Peri, Silas), or some other highly desirable trait. Effie only offers combat. I'd personally place her around Arthur's level, but at the very least she should not be a tier above Beruka.

Speaking of which, Beruka needs to move up a tier and has a case of being adjacent to Niles and Kaze. Her bases are absurd, she's only one speed or strength proc away from ORKOing all the Oni Savages in 11 with the proper pair up, assuming tonics and she's in a map that's pretty much 11 free turns of grinding (though she does miss the first three) where she actually contributes. Having done Chapter 10 on Lunatic without the use of Camilla or Elise or Haitaka (lol), I can confirm that as long as you have a strong enough Corrin, Silas, or Jakob, Camilla is not needed in 10, Beruka and Selena are all the reinforcements you need for that. Her only weak area is speed, which can be patched up pretty easily with tonics and Kaze/Selena pair up the latter of which she has a fast support with. She can replicate Camilla's contributions lategame, albeit not as well, but she's still capable and she has Fighter to pick up some really good skills lategame too. Like seriously, even if you half-ass and don't use her for fighting, she can still find ways to contribute by virtue of her class and bases.

Felicia 1 also needs to drop, she's so bad unless you reclass her to either Dark Knight or Malig Knight.

Nyx can rise a bit, she's gravy as a pair up bot for Leo (Adventurer and Bow Knight Nyx is the optimal choice) and she's really good for a short while as an early promoted Dark Knight; her performance in 11 and 13 alone is way better than whatever it is dipshits like Laslow or Keaton do. Keaton himself should not be a tier below Charlotte, he's a lot better than her at fighting and his pair up bonuses are just as good or even better than hers.

going to adress this from bottom to top

Keaton : What are you smoking? do you realize Keaton is A) really fast, B) very bulky, C) very powerful and D) Has a passive Beast killer effect? Like, do you realize this? His combat potential is incredible. He is the hard hitter unit that can reliably tango with ninjas and swordmasters later on without any SPD help, OHKO if not ORKO squishies (I never use tonics and mess hall, but i suppose +8 damage output means something to him). He has mild problems with hit if not using the default BS, but that can always be patched up with the right surrounding units. His personal is luck based but can really help the player bring more forges to the table and boost Mess Hall utility when it triggers (... on a successful run).

Nyx can't take a hit. She is literally a magic nuke that trades ZERO staffbot and negligible passive utility for the ability to have an offense much earlier than Elise, and has no pony.

Like i said before i do not use Mess Hall and tonics (among a crapload of other things like reclassing) in my runs. My Felicia1 hits her averages for magic and SPd for the most part of post-Flame Shuriken CQ, and she was often just a couple points short of ORKO'ing prime magic nuke targets like Onis and Faceless. Having a better magic class or some stat bossting via tonics or food makes her have good damage output against physical tanks and anti-magic utility, which is pretty good. She is at the right spot. Her dodgetanking utility is not to be underestimated, and is extremely handy in pretty much every chapter that isn't ninja/bow hell (or like i call it, she cannot handle Saizo's presence in the battlefield)

Beruka might be salvageable combat-wise as fighter, but would lose the many perks of Wyvenr rider as a class and potentially skills. But unreclassed, Beruka simply has an awful combination of A) Meh STR, B) Not enough speed to tango with anything but enemy tanks without beign doubled C) Defense+HP that simply do not hold up from taking so many double attacks. She'd need constant otuside SPD/STR or DEF investment form the player to be actually worthwhile later in combat. Before Ninja Hell 2 she is still fairly useful, but starts dropping considerably from them on. 10-range Lunge, rally DEF, flying ability, Ferrying ability, Def+MOV pair up and Swordbreaker can all make her worthy of a slot, but she's not gettign that slot for her fighting utility.

Like with Felicia, i monitored her stats and how they held up vs her averages, as wlel as some doubling thresholds. Beruka needs significant help in the SPD department to have worth as a defensive unit (that doesn't get shreded from double attacks) or offensive unit (that struggles to deal 20+ damage in the sole hit she can manage against meh-def enemies). Unless she goes fighter, but i do not play with reclassing so i'm not sure who has priority over her. (not that Beruka isn't fine for the first few chapters as a wyvern. It's perhaps better, to keep her defense a little higher for a later reclass).

I simply do not understand your problem with Effie.

Let's remember one thing about Chapter 8: You are not attacking anyone in the first turn. since you have two ponies and a 6-mov servant, you simply give Effie to one, Arthur to the other, and leave the last just in range for Corrin to pair-up from the village in turn 2. So screw this "effie can only visit a village" mindset. Learn to use your units.

There. Now effie is in the battlefield, ready to help a lot with attack stance since few people can reliably ORKO stuff in this map. Effie tips the odds so that every unit can finish off a squishy mage before they counter attack, while she and arthur can soften up the fighters as necessary.

Chapter 9 can be turtled, and Effie is a knight. TC said "blah,blah,blah efficiency" but there is absolutely no incentive to not turtle that chapter. That "gotta go fast!" mentality for this game is absolutely stupid and limited. You should always be looking to minimize risks, and that's what turtling is.

Effie does not need mobility in Chapter 10. She does just fine staying in the middle and then retreating with Silas when the water lowers.

You are right that Effie does not offer much more than combat (beside of course being a decent +STR/DEF pair-up). but Effie offers so much combat potential that it doesn't matter. Not all units need to have extra utility, and in certain cases she offers more than high utility/meh combat units. Like, oh, beruka!

But it depends on what you consider utility. I, personally, look at being able to force Ninjas/Swordmaster to not attack twice as utility, and being able to bait enemies without really suffering as utility.

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I asked this earlier, but got no answer, so... How many Heart Seals are available before the level 3 shop?

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Serenes really needs to get its Item Locations page up and running. That said, I just did a quick run-through of the FE wiki and didn't see any aside from the one in C9, so you have that + the three from the L1-2 store for a total of four.

Silas: he could stand to go down to top of high tier maybe, ill need some more convincing. Idk i feel hes so low cost and he joins so early that ill keep him in top tier for now. He hits like a truck, joins early and is in a great class.


I'm not seeing what is particularly special about Silas' attack/offence? Setting aside the potential +3 from Vow of Friendship and the -3 when he's on special terrain (i.e. assuming Elbow Room is active), and giving each unit iron, we have:

Base Silas, Iron Sword, 20 atk
Base Arthur, Iron Axe, 20 atk
Base Effie, Iron Lance, 20 atk (+3 when her personal is active)

Silas has the lowest str growth of this trio, too, and is the only one with no 1-2 range access (for now). He is the most accurate and is the only one with a second weapon (even if it's E rank) and has 2-3 more move, but if raw offence is your argument he doesn't stand out from the crowd. The characters who join in the next few maps all have comparable atk (Nyx, Beruka, Peri), are much better at doubling (Niles, Selena, Kaze), or are low tier and thus Silas being better than them proves little (Odin, Mozu, Laslow, Nyx again).

And I'll re-iterate that Silas being three tiers above Peri is a headscratcher.

Pretty much if there is a resource that many units would like to use, then the person who gets the most usage out of it is the unit who is simply better all around and should be the main recipient of it. In FE10, there is a speed wing you get in Path 2 on Crimea that you can carry into to give it Haar on end game for the Crimea path. Many units would love to see a speedwing, but Haar will get the most mileage out of it.


I mostly agree in a way but you have to be careful about oversimplifying, and overrating the Haars of the world in the process, by "assuming" they get the resource. Haar (or whoever) using that speedwing is still a big resource that lots of other people would like and thus him using it means nobody else can. Any analysis of Haar vs. another unit should either feature neither getting that Speedwing, or both getting it, or the other unit getting a resource of roughly similar value instead. (Haar can be shown as superior to units in these situations just fine, of course, but that's not my point.)

What are you smoking? do you realize Keaton is A) really fast, B) very bulky, C) very powerful and D) Has a passive Beast killer effect? Like, do you realize this? His combat potential is incredible.


This is significantly overrating Keaton; you should look at his stats again.

-Keaton is only even above average speed with the Beaststone+ (and certainly is never "really fast"). If he has the Beaststone+ equipped, he isn't "very bulky". Beaststone Keaton has only +1 speed on base Leo... or Selena four maps earlier, for that matter.

-"Very powerful" is again going too far for Keaton, at any point in the game. He joins around when forging is generally availble for units who need it, and uses weapons which top out at 9 power, then 12 power after C19. For all that you antihype Beruka's "meh STR" she will generally be able to output similar raw damage per swing, though Keaton will be faster with the Beaststone(+). She's very close speedwise to Beastrune Keaton.

-Beastbane is nice but most combat units get some sort of weakness-hit option, be it a Beast Killer, Hammer/Armourslayer, bows against fliers, etc. Keaton hardly stands out just because he has one too.

Keaton is still decent since he can shift around his stats for what the situation requires, but no one stat package he offers looks that impressive to me. Toss in his unremarkable move and total lack of range-2 options or other utility and he doesn't feel that great. I could see him as high as Mid Tier, but comparing him to staffbots and the like is difficult.

Edited by Dark Holy Elf

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Meal bonuses are much too random to be reliable for the majority of the game (and PKL also said they're also not a legit argument until the part where the randomness factor is gone, aka level 3). Forges require crapping away money (and I also have doubts about the legtitmacy of forging). Pair ups basically mean you're using two units' turns at once. Basically, it might be workable, but it requires a significant cost.

What's more, PKL also said no to generics.

Guard stance is way better then attack stance. The guaranteed dual guard and the stats it can give are ridiculous(See: Charlotte, Rinka, Keaton, Arthur, Corrin's servants). Plus, almost every enemy in the game is unpaired, so guard stance negates enemy attack stance. I've seen some enemies waste their attack, just to get an attack stance set up. The AI doesn't realize your units are in guard stance, and will keep trying to use attack stance.

Pairup bots make the game so much easier. Less, quality units > More, average units. Fire Emblem has always been like this. Fates isn't an exception. You are probably thinking of Fates' exp curve, but that doesn't matter either. There are many other resources besides experience. Tonics, weapons, statboosters, forges(which are ridiculous in Fates, +2 Mt is amazing, and its not hard at all to get to +2), and heart seals. It's much better to funnel these resources into 5-6 combat units, each with their own pairup bot.

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Guard stance is way better then attack stance. The guaranteed dual guard and the stats it can give are ridiculous(See: Charlotte, Rinka, Keaton, Arthur, Corrin's servants). Plus, almost every enemy in the game is unpaired, so guard stance negates enemy attack stance. I've seen some enemies waste their attack, just to get an attack stance set up. The AI doesn't realize your units are in guard stance, and will keep trying to use attack stance.

Pairup bots make the game so much easier. Less, quality units > More, average units. Fire Emblem has always been like this. Fates isn't an exception. You are probably thinking of Fates' exp curve, but that doesn't matter either. There are many other resources besides experience. Tonics, weapons, statboosters, forges(which are ridiculous in Fates, +2 Mt is amazing, and its not hard at all to get to +2), and heart seals. It's much better to funnel these resources into 5-6 combat units, each with their own pairup bot.

I personally felt it was the other way around - I got a lot of mileage out of attack stance, but guard stance was much more situational.

Maybe, but I feel that using pair up bots is wasting unit slots that could've been used on units that could've actually contributed, and being shorthanded is no bueno when less is.... just less. And I just don't really like the forge system in Fates.

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia

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This is significantly overrating Keaton; you should look at his stats again.

-Keaton is only even above average speed with the Beaststone+ (and certainly is never "really fast"). If he has the Beaststone+ equipped, he isn't "very bulky". Beaststone Keaton has only +1 speed on base Leo... or Selena four maps earlier, for that matter.

-"Very powerful" is again going too far for Keaton, at any point in the game. He joins around when forging is generally availble for units who need it, and uses weapons which top out at 9 power, then 12 power after C19. For all that you antihype Beruka's "meh STR" she will generally be able to output similar raw damage per swing, though Keaton will be faster with the Beaststone(+). She's very close speedwise to Beastrune Keaton.

-Beastbane is nice but most combat units get some sort of weakness-hit option, be it a Beast Killer, Hammer/Armourslayer, bows against fliers, etc. Keaton hardly stands out just because he has one too.

Keaton is still decent since he can shift around his stats for what the situation requires, but no one stat package he offers looks that impressive to me. Toss in his unremarkable move and total lack of range-2 options or other utility and he doesn't feel that great. I could see him as high as Mid Tier, but comparing him to staffbots and the like is difficult.

SPD - Keaton has enough SPD to always contest will all but the speediest of the units in the enemy sides, units that all gen 1 but Niles will be struggling to double at base and few can double without augmentation. This is without factoring Mess Hall, Pair-ups, and Tonics, though eh. i have yet to check out 27/endgame, but both ninja hells Keaton has the ability to be deployed can be turtled, so he can just swoop in and kill stuff before they strike back.

DEF - "if you don't have Guard Naginata equipped Hinoka isn't very bulky" too. If you need to tank, your priority is not killing stuff. So you simply... don't tank with Beaststone +. That weapon is to kill things in PP so you have little to no enemies hunting you down in EP. The extra damage from less defense means little when you can heal safely or kill the enemy before a counterstrike.

Though alternatively Beaststone+'s spd boost can save him from taking more damage than he should be taking... well. Anyways, even with Beaststone+ his Defense at 20/15 (around chapter 25) should be 7 points behind Beruka. which is a fair lot, BUT unlike Beruka he isn't getting doubled for double damage, and he has a pretty good 15 HP lead on her. With Beastrune it is not even a contest since both are getting doubled but Keaton has a lead in both HP, Defense and even Resistance (while lacking arrow weakness, too, but that's moot by that point. If you get hurt by arrows it means lunge chian directly into Saizo so...)

ATK - Assuming Beruka is at the same level when Keaton joins, on average:

She will have 15 STR vs his 19 STR

Iron +2 vs Beastrune is 12MT vs 9MT

Meaning Beruka is only one point of ATK behind Keaton, which is okay.

Speedwise, she has 11 vs his 13-1 (Beastrune). So that's also okay.

but when you consider growths:

Beruka has 45% of STR and 40% of SPD

Keaton has 80% of STr and 50% of SPD (as well as access to SPD boosting weapons which go as far as +6SPD).

At first that damage output is about equal (til you remember Keaton is recruited in a map with Peggies... some of them who have ARROWS), but those growths should be kicking in as the game goes and Beruka will be left only for utility, weakness exploiting via Hammer (getting Bk for her is unlikely), and finishing off wounded people because of her high SKL (which is good, since people who are not meh defensively or suck offensively can move and do their jobs elsewhere).

Later on at 20/15 Keaton has on average a lead of 11 in STR, and the chance to double stuff with far, far less setup than Beruka needs. With an average Attack Stance partner keaton should be one-shotting every non-boss unit in Chapter 25 besides Swordmasters (he can... but those jerks are dodgy; i would tank them out instead). Ninjas are fast but they are squishy.

Beastbane - Keaton doesn't need to commit to a weapon that is really, really bad against everything else to do his job. But the big thing is that it not only works out well for him, but he is the best anti-beast Attack Stance partner you get. i think only Effie could do more effective damage than him in a no-reclass and i'm not too sure.

in other words, Keaton is a somewhat better tank, is a little better offensively when tanking, and completely outclasses Beruka when going on offense unless you are willing to forge silvers/super forged irons, or give her braves (there are faster, stronger users of Lance and Axes around who can use said weapons much better--but if you are goign for balanced power throughout your party it is a good idea).

Lack of two range - Keaton is more of an assassin than a tank, even though he can pull of that job to a decent degree. In other words, he is the kind of unit that is made to not be exposed in EP, and kill those that approach when PP rolls around. Thus, lack of two range doesn't hurt him a whole lot, but i can see why it would bother some. It is definitely a hit to his flexibility.

...Honestly, tho, they complement each extremely well since SPD+STR is exactly what Beruka needs to shine, while mobility and some extra defense makes Keaton an all-around better unit.

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I've had no issues training Mozu on the Lunatic!Conquest Recruitment Swap of all things.

...but eh, she's kinda of necessary there (good luck taking out Haitaka without her now that you don't have Odin for Heartseeker abuse), and her only competition for the earlygame slot is Hana who sucks amazingly hard so eh.

. . .Hana?

Cooking: i initially didnt assume this either. Its random so i feel it shouldnt be assumed until the point in the game it isnt, which i saw someone say was c21? I need more info on this matter to conclude this matter but for now its not a thing in this list.

The last few chapters (Chapter 23 and on) are where I needed cooking the most. It also stacks with tonics, which is nice.

Laslow is way the fuck too high. Like seriously, he's like fucking Oujay except he doesn't even give you an Armorslayer and you get nothing unique out of him. Master Ninja Laslow is overrated too, having used it myself, I can say confidently that he really is a piece of shit. He should drop to Low or Bottom tier, he's definitely not better than the lategame staffers, Nyx, or Keaton.

Define "piece of trash", since the biggest issues I've had with Laslow are speed-related, something that Ninja fixes nicely. He also has his personal skill, and a certain Dark Knight with Brynhilder is just one speed short of doubling certain enemies (as an example).

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. . .Hana?

There's a mod of conquest that gives you Br units instead of CQ units, so you get Hana/Subaki/Sakura for Chapter 7.

what i meant to say there is that in a party with frailer units, i was still able to bring Mozu up to speed.

(also, sorry about the triple post thingy; i forgot this is not a site that merges multiposts)

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There's a mod of conquest that gives you Br units instead of CQ units, so you get Hana/Subaki/Sakura for Chapter 7.

what i meant to say there is that in a party with frailer units, i was still able to bring Mozu up to speed.

(also, sorry about the triple post thingy; i forgot this is not a site that merges multiposts)

Different forums, different systems, different rules. That's why I don't join too many at once!

I'm positive that this is vanilla Conquest, so I can't really say how hard something like Chapter 10 is with Sakura and her gang deployed. For early chipping, there's Odin/Nyx/servant/maybe Effie and Arthur, with Odin/servant being the best options. Sadly, Bronze Bows kinda suck (I'll assume forging exists, but if you've got the wrong forging material, it really slows down the process).

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Different forums, different systems, different rules. That's why I don't join too many at once!

I'm positive that this is vanilla Conquest, so I can't really say how hard something like Chapter 10 is with Sakura and her gang deployed. For early chipping, there's Odin/Nyx/servant/maybe Effie and Arthur, with Odin/servant being the best options. Sadly, Bronze Bows kinda suck (I'll assume forging exists, but if you've got the wrong forging material, it really slows down the process).

Yes, but i was just using the swap as an example. Team Hoshido is much less tanky, which means protecting Mozu while she does her job is a lot harder ANd you get less strong attack stance partners to complement her damage output, but she is still usable THERE. So in normal conquest it is definitely doable. (I only play vanilla conquest without reclassing, so Mozu is not worth deploying)

Chapter 10 Luna with team? I'm stuck on that.The lack of heavy hitters and tanks hits you very, very hard in this chapter. maybe if hinoka joined with Bolt Naginata over (or together with) Guard Naginata... ugh. nothing quite reaches Camilla's level. Hinoka's retainers are semi-useless, Subaki's combat starts to heavily decline since there aren't any slow mages for him to prey on, Hayato doesn't have the Nosfeartu to deal with most of the left onis by himself...

Heck, the lack of tanky/strong units to dump at the center (EFFIE) forces me to throw Silas there, which makes me have ZERO people defending the left side and kills my runs. if i send silas to fill that hole my center gets run down. Hinata and Oboro are constantly stuck on the right side of the map, and Hinoka is locked to a weak physical weapon and can't really kill onis/spearfighter (and becomes completely useless if she ever gets the double sealing from Oboro).

It's a nightmare.

You know, i was thinking that perhaps we need one tier list for each retainer option. I was thinking of Mozu and, well. She has a pretty heavy competition for that Heart Seal in Jakob (unless you are fine with reclassing both via Shop), but Felicia actually wants to hang in her base class til she gets Tomebreaker. Arthur and Silas have more survivability with Felicia early, but Jakob makes Effie that more tankier while also making Elise and Azura easier to protect.

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I don't think which servant coming first makes enough of a difference on other units to warrant a separate list IMO. The early Heart Seals still have a lot of competition even with Felicia (Corrin, Selena).

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The thing is Corrin can still hold out pretty well as a Draccorin, and has some pretty great utility from the class like tanking out the middle of C10, the Ninja/Samurai room in C11, shurikens in general (til IE comes along--though for Corrin that's even later)

is Selena really contributing more than mozu reclassed, tho?

I mean, look at sniper!Mozu's growths

50/65/15/80/80/60/55/40

is selena really worth more? Jakob is really the only person I see as REAL competition for that heart seal. Quite honestly? Wasting some money for the early shop seal for instant Bowzu and holding out on Pony Jakob til you get another from Haitaka seems like it would bring the strongest results. With Felicia mozu simply doesn't have competition for the seal priority.

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So I took a look at Mozu's bases, since that's what she will rely on after being fed a Heart Seal.

HP: 16 (who thought it was a good idea to give her -1 base HP?)
Str: 6
Mag: 0
Skl: 8
Spd: 6
Lck: 2
Def: 4
Res: 2
She outspeeds a base Effie, and a Corrin with no speed modifiers starts with that. She's got one base Strength over Azura, whose tier placement has nothing to do with her Bronze Naginata combat, and Felicia, whose chip-debuff is far more useful than whatever damage Mozu can leverage with a Bronze Bow. In terms of durability, she's on par with Azura, for physical hits. She's absolutely hopeless against magical hits. Her growths won't kick in unless she levels, and she'll have a hard time doing that with bases like hers.

Growth units have their place, but in this sort of tier list, they tend to rank low. Mozu is no exception.

. . .actually, this is a pretty good argument to have Odin move up. At least he can hit Res, and can donate Heartseeker for dodgy enemies.

Edited by eggclipse

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So I took a look at Mozu's bases, since that's what she will rely on after being fed a Heart Seal.

HP: 16 (who thought it was a good idea to give her -1 base HP?)
Str: 6
Mag: 0
Skl: 8
Spd: 6
Lck: 2
Def: 4
Res: 2
She outspeeds a base Effie, and a Corrin with no speed modifiers starts with that. She's got one base Strength over Azura, whose tier placement has nothing to do with her Bronze Naginata combat, and Felicia, whose chip-debuff is far more useful than whatever damage Mozu can leverage with a Bronze Bow. In terms of durability, she's on par with Azura, for physical hits. She's absolutely hopeless against magical hits. Her growths won't kick in unless she levels, and she'll have a hard time doing that with bases like hers.

Growth units have their place, but in this sort of tier list, they tend to rank low. Mozu is no exception.

. . .actually, this is a pretty good argument to have Odin move up. At least he can hit Res, and can donate Heartseeker for dodgy enemies.

She can easily be fed the second half of her paralogue and get to level 5 with nothing but tanking and smart pair-up usage with Effie (bringing again a swap example, you can do it with just the neutral characters using attack stance)

That's enough to contribute heavily in Chapter 8 by being able to bait and kill magic units with any pair-up (she just needs a way to negate dual strike). C9 is built so you can give kills to your party easily and in whatever order you want to and...

OHHH, i see. You guys still hung up on LTC and all that pointless stuff? Well. Okay. This tier list has absolutely no meaning in then because 80% of the time turtling is much smarter and safer, but go ahead.

Edited by guedesbrawl

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Yeah I don't think Odin is a very good unit or anything (pretty bad bases with meh growths), but he can chip for a few chapters, use the magic ballista in C10, give Camilla some Mag for Bolt Axe action etc. He should probably be at the top of Bottom tier at worst.

I think Keaton is better than Charlotte. They both provide good Pair Up bonuses (+7 Str, +4 Spd, +2 Def for Keaton vs. +8 Str, +5 Spd for Charlotte), but Keaton is way more functional as a combat unit than Charlotte due to much higher durability, not having Hit issues, doubled damage on Beast units etc.

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Clearly, Charlotte > Keaton because she is going to be the spouse to Pegasus Knight Lover. Therefore, PKL has put Charlotte up higher on the tier list due to favoritism. Wouldn't you too fall for her charms?

51dc899d20e1c3a8afa3bafd601c4b20.jpg

Edited by Vorena

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OHHH, i see. You guys still hung up on LTC and all that pointless stuff? Well. Okay. This tier list has absolutely no meaning in then because 80% of the time turtling is much smarter and safer, but go ahead.

Excuse me?

After like 7 Lunatic+Hard Playthroughs of Conquest I've decided to make a Tier List for it. I'm looking to make it as accurate as possible. Being an efficient unit (high move, shelter, ability to kill at 1-2 range or bosskill, etc) makes the unit go up, not having these qualities or having them but needing more effort makes them go lower. Here we go:

Did you even read the first line of the OP, with implied focus on efficiency, guedesbrawl?.

First of all, nobody but Corrin is absolutely necessary. You will need a healthy number of DV users for C21/24/Endgame to not become ridiculous but otherwise there is no "need" for anyone beyond Chapter 7 (which is balanced with all available units in mind.)

Second, the bolded part. This is not FE7 where you are ranked for time. This is not Tellius, where quick clears give you EXP. While surely some chapters are designed to mess with you if you try it (10), press you for time either for the entire run (21), huge separated chunks (24) or a single point in the map where you need to rush (14), if you can turtle, it is usually the best possible way to play a map. Quick clears do nothing to the player besides making the game unnecessarily more difficult in most cases because Turtling gives you more control of the map.

If there is one self-imposed restriction that we must value when making tier lists in games with no rewards for LTC, it is "safety". The only thing that comes close to an unspoken rule in FE is "don't let your units die".

About Staves vs Vulneraries. i think this is a moot point. Yeah, you can have 10 combat units instead of 9 + Elise... but if some of these units waste turns to consume vulneraries, what is the net gain there? This depends on the map and strategy employed (and which Servant you have, since Jakob makes offense more viable than Felicia, who makes defense much stronger for a while)

There is also the cost-benefit. Vulneraries eat one of your weapon slots (arguably not as impactful earlier), but they also cost you more for less gain:

Vulneraries cost 300g and heal exactly 10 per use, for a total of 30 HP. So you are paying 100g for each 10 HP you heal

Heal costs 500g (with a chance at being 475)... but at MINIMUM heals 10 HP per each of its 20 uses (+ 1/3 of the user's MAG), for a total of 200 HP. (Elise at base should be healing 12 or 13, so that's 240 or 260 per Heal). In other words, you are paying only 25g for each 10 Hp you heal, while frequently getting more than just 10 HP and sometimes being lucky to get that value for less gold.

It is much better for your party to rely on Heal and have stronger weapons than it is to frequently waste slots with healing items and progressively eat your resources more, imo.

You also forget that Elise can help a lot with her defensive bonuses. Keeping her around lets your party take less damage, which in turn lets your party takes more risks. she also has passive utility earlier from being a high MOV ferry and giving RES boosts in Chapter 8.

Not to mention later on you can count on Elise to ORKO units like Faceless, Oni Chieftains, Spearmasters and Masters of Arms reliably as long as they can't hit her back for DEF, which is pretty good (Potentially Berzerkers with the right SPD boosts), and her high SPD makes her good magic bait. With her high RES, she can work extremely well with a STR-based attack stance partner to wipe out chunks of enemy mages in maps like 20 and 22 without having any problems. Her insane magic stat makes Elise one of the strongest attack stance partners you can have to deal with Wary Fighter generals as well.

Demoiselle+Rally Resistance+Lily's Poise gives one heck of a RES boost if you can set it up, too (9), and things like Freeze and Entrap can be complete game changers that take out key threats and turn them into jokes. (unless they are 0 MOV staff users, gaaaahhh....)

...

all of that said, i don't know what tier you are arguing her to belong on, so... just dropping this here. lol

The idea of this list is to rank based on efficient use (Most reward for minimal effort). Units like Azura make things far easier, so obviously, she's higher up. Just because you aren't ranked for time, doesn't mean that I want to spend two turtling a map, just so I can get some unit with a pretty mugshot a bunch of shiny capp'd stats.

Regarding your points on Elise, and the bottom line, I've said it before [days ago] and I'll say it again;

Like my original stance on her goes, I could see Leo dropping a bit and Elise bumping up to under Felicia in High Tier, but I can't see her rising much more than that. Kaze's gonna be dodging stuff and Effie's gonna be gobbling up Def and Spd to avoid being a liability, super quickly. Elise takes too long to grow out of it to warrant a significant position jump.

Edited by Elieson

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Yup, i read it. Mozu and Benny being the very worst units in that list clearly tells me that doing things like taking Paralogue 1 slowly to feed Mozu some EXP or simply playing slow because you are turtling a map out is somehow detracting from those units's ratings. Keaton's does as well: he can't move a lot compared to promoted ponies, and can't attack at range. But a defensive playstyle completely makes those cons mostly meaningless.

I disagree with that mindset where slow play = inefficient, or even that taking a little to invest on a unit detracts from them (Mozu is not Nino. she literally takes half a chapter of babying and one chapter of treating her like a glass cannon before her growths start kicking in).

it is limiting the player for absolutely no reason. i repeat: this isn't Fe7 where the game ranks you or Ike's games where clearing the maps quickly rewards you with BEXP. If turtling can make a map easier it should be considered, and if a unit works well with turtling strategies, that should make them go up. Especially since turlting is safer than rushing ahead.

Key Example: Chapter 22. It's much faster to take both sides of the map at once. Taking one side at a time and carefully turtling the entire thing gives you a much safer run.

Edited by guedesbrawl

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