PKL's Conquest Tier List v1.1

[Vorena]

But how does that make him high on the tier list? If you do that then you have one healer for the vast majority of the early game, no healer for chapter 12, and in exchange you get a unit with passable early-game stats and terrible growth rates who's basically an experience sink. Why isn't it more useful to use him to slap rallies and auras on himself and a child early in the game?

Jakob has some unique combinations going his way.

His exp. gain is not quite that of a promoted unit. It is more unpromoted. I am not sure if it was exactly the same as say Corrin without the +20% bonus from his/her skill. Anyway, his internal level has a +20 level cap higher than that of normal units. So, he can get up to 40 as a paladin which puts his exp gain rather high compared to say FE6/7 Marcus. You get rather early access to a Heart Seal for 2500g. Jakob's level is such that upon promoting into Paladin he gets the base stats of +1 hp, +4 strength, -2 skl, -1 speed, +2 def, +2 res, and +2 movement. Magic is irrelavant.

Not only this, but upon promotion he gets the entire skill set over the next three level-ups from Cavalier and Paladin lv5. Which amounts to Elbow Room, Shelter, and Defender. Defender upon pair up is a free +1 to every stat along with regular pair-up bonuses. He gets to act as a rescuer function through the ability of Shelter and gets a nice +3 damage boost in open Tier. Plus, you couple this with his other skills such as promoting Corrin, -2 damage to surrounding female units, and +2 resistance.

Jakob's stats are growths are honestly not that bad either as paladin.

Hp Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
50 30  15  40  35  45  25  25  Base
10 15  0   10  10  15  10  10  Paladin
60 45  15  50  45  60  35  35  Total

All of his combat stats are reasonable apart from his def/res. Overall, you pick up a fairly strong early game combat unit by using the heart seal you can buy once you unlock the Staff Shop which can be done as early as completing chapter 6.

Here is a quick comparison of base stats between Silas and Jakob at each's base level without class stats.

Hp Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res
5  5   0   4   3   4   5   2    Silas
3  4   1   3   1   6   2   2    Jakob

Effectively, Silas starts out at level 6 while Jakob starts out at level 1 and already has base stats which rival that of Silas.

Overall, Jakob can be one of your best combat units will all of the skills he has access to and good utility with movement and shelter along with getting promotion bonus stats over every other unit until they can possibly promote. While you lose a healer with Jakob you gain a statistically better combat unit than pretty much anyone else for that time period of the game.

[Alastor15243]

I'm aware of his weird levels, but that just means he never gets promotion bonuses and his bases are not set up to compensate for that. And since magic is unimportant as a physical fighter, when it comes to growth rates, Jakob only beats Silas with 10% HP and 5% in luck, ties in resistance, and is inferior everywhere else, often to drastic degrees, with 15% less strength, 10% less skill, 5% less speed, and 15% less defense. I don't understand why one would put any investment into a unit who is guaranteed to fall off big time once people start promoting, to the point he'll barely be able to fight, unless the investment is to exploit the hell out of his skill quirks to get him a lot of advanced non-combat skills early on that he can continue using or pass down to Dwyer.

[Vorena]

I'm aware of his weird levels, but that just means he never gets promotion bonuses and his bases are not set up to compensate for that. And since magic is unimportant as a physical fighter, when it comes to growth rates, Jakob only beats Silas with 10% HP and 5% in luck, ties in resistance, and is inferior everywhere else, often to drastic degrees, with 15% less strength, 10% less skill, 5% less speed, and 15% less defense. I don't understand why one would put any investment into a unit who is guaranteed to fall off big time once people start promoting, to the point he'll barely be able to fight, unless the investment is to exploit the hell out of his skill quirks to get him a lot of advanced non-combat skills early on that he can continue using or pass down to Dwyer.

Jakob already has "promotion bonuses". Promotion bonuses are really nothing more than reclassing bonuses really. When you change classes from Maid to Paladin you lose all base stats of Maid and instead get Paladin instead. The stat changes you see are nothing more than the differences between the classes you are switching between. Promotion works the same way. The promotion bonuses are nothing more than the difference between the unpromoted class and the promoted class. Since Jakob is already promoted when he goes to Paladin he is getting promotion bonuses over the unpromoted Silas.

Earlier I pointed out the raw base stats per character without their class base stats at all. Though of them Silas starts at level 6 while Jakob starts at level 1. Say you gained 5 levels as Jakob as a Butler to equal that of Silas at level 6.

The following are the raw base stats for each character without their class base stats, but we go and tack on 5 levels of Butler growth to Jakob

Hp  Str Mag  Skl  Spd Lck  Def Res
5   5   0    4    3   4    5   2    Silas Lv6
5.5 6   2.25 5.75 3.5 8.75 3.5 3.75 Jakob Lv6

Jakob and Silas grow at effectively the same rate. However, Jakob has promotion bonuses over Silas, +1 Defender bonuses over Silas, and +2 resistance over Silas until Silas can promote and get to level 5 by which he can duplicate the bonuses Jakob had so early in the game. Plus, Jakob will have +1 movement until Silas can promote.

For the growths you mentioned the skill is not important at all because Jakob still gets high enough skill growths to be able to hit things for accuracy. The 10% increase in HP for Jakob helps to semi-offset the 15% less defense growth, but that is a reason why Silas would be better in the long term. The 5% speed decrease is minimal. A 5% increase on average amounts to +1 level every 20 levels. So, its not a super advantage. The strength is certainly an advantage for Silas as well in the long run.

Comparing growths and raw base stats and Exp gain Jakob can keep up with Silas for quite awhile. He will see diminishing returns yes by the time you hit midgame and Silas would be better. However, this is where we get into early game, whole game, or end game value. Is Jakob's early game contributions strong enough to warrant putting him over Silas?

In a way, after doing this evaluation I would say Silas should be above Jakob since if we are getting a kid Sophie is pretty good and Silas will be useful for quite awhile. Plus, please note that the investment in Jakob is pretty minimal. All you really are giving him at first is a 2500g heart seal from early game. Which is contested, but ideally no one really makes better use of that seal than Jakob for so early in the game which makes it a good investment from early to midgame.

Again as it was already stated we pick-up and drop units all the time depending upon their usage. When they fall off we dump them for someone else. The question I have then is who else would you consider investing that exp into if not Jakob? Jakob is not really (eating) any exp at all as he level-up like a normal unit effectively.

[Vorena]

Since we are on Conquest the chapters prior to chapter 7 selective EXP dumping is pretty much exclusively for Corrin, Jakob, and Azura. The bulk of it being for Corrin. It is not until chapter 6 where you can be more selective over who gets EXP. Of the party members you get the one's who can take that exp and role with it and be great right away are Silas, Effie, Corrin, and Jakob. Jakob mainly since after this chapter you get access to Heart Seal which will instantly make Jakob a top tier combat unit right away and more so after the next 3 levels when you get the skills kicking in.

Looking forward from there who else can really be invested in for EXP rather than Jakob? You can take it and invest into super units or another unit you get in the next few chapters. However, note that Jakob with prior exp will be better than these units starting levels. Camilla will be the next great unit to top Jakob that you get without any investment whatsoever, but not until chapter 10.

Pretty much Jakob is still a very good investment for the early-mid game to make chapters easier until you can get investments into other characters going for mid-late game.

[UNLEASH IT]

Jakob makes pretty good pair up fodder too so you can just strap him onto Corrin's back when his combat effectiveness inevitably begins to fade.

Edited December 20, 2016 by UNLEASH IT

[Vorena]

I guess now is a time for me to say I have never played Lunatic before and time for me to go into oblivion for anything I have ever said on this tier list.

[eclipse]

The rule I use with this tier list is "if it's a gigantic pain in the neck on Hard, it's not going to be any easier on Lunatic." It also means that if it's super-de-duper helpful on Hard (namely, Heartseeker), it's still going to be helpful on Lunatic, though getting Odin/Nyx into position will be a lot riskier.

The second rule is not to double-post.

Edited December 20, 2016 by eggclipse

[Dark Holy Elf]

Jakob 1 is definitely the best unit in Conquest who can't use dragon veins, I think. He's either a jeigan unit who never really falls off that hard (like Seth except less dominant + Camilla exists), or he's your best (and sometimes only) healer.

In a way, after doing this evaluation I would say Silas should be above Jakob since if we are getting a kid Sophie is pretty good

I really don't think the gap between Sophie and Dwyer (if we account for it at all when considering their fathers) is large enough to offset Jakob 1's advantages as a unit. By your own analysis Jakob beats Silas pretty bad until the latter promotes and is competitive enough thereafter. Remember that he still has access to L15 skills other units do not. Trample or Swordfaire/Lancefaire will nicely offset any Str edge Silas has, for instance.

[guedesbrawl]

Well, I suppose much of it is implied. Serenesforest overall has been a location for many parties, but the most predominately leading ideology here I have found is towards lower turn count. Which honestly has felt like a respectable category. Its generally pretty hard to go fast and fairly easy to take your time and grind out units. Plus, lower turn count focus makes it so much easier to turn unit viability. Units which take time to get good aren't very easily seen as not good in this category. Units which take resources compared to one's without resources are easier to tier as well. A defense on a great combat unit will be put to even more use than one's with poorer defense. Other things such as going out of your way to get units or get resources can be looked at as well.

Not only this, but this analysis in general can be extrapolated to slower runs as well. The other thing usually implied in these type of tier categories is the lack of abusing mechanics such as spending turns doing side battles. Though its become weird since they introduced so many variable entries into the game such as having access to Dragon Herbs, Boots, Dread Scroll, DLC content, etc.

I'm not saying it is without merit, just that selling it that as part of the "vanilla" tier list reasoning is... literally wrong. "Category" seems like a nice word here.

Like before: i totally get it doing for games that rank or reward you for quick clears. CQ has three or so maps that press you for time throughout the entire run and don't let you stop and tank things after a point (like C7 does), but otherwise taking an absurd turn count to do a job or even just slowing down for a couple turns... doesn't detract from anything besides your sanity. (Deaths while turtling are the thing of despair--luckily you can use Casual mode to Lab some stuff out before doing a true run)

LTC!Mozu is completely out of question, but in a run where you are going for fast clears but not exactly LTC (which is what i understand this tier list seems to be based on), Mozu is probably still a worthwhile investment even if you run low on funds because you are reclassing both her and Jakob1. If you are using him.

i mean, who else needs that Heart Seal as badly as Mozu while reaping more benefits besides Jakob1? Selena's combat still sucks and you have Shigure for rally duty, Beruka has better combat but loses utility so it's better to just go with Arthur who is only slightly worse as a Fighter. Doing the same with Arthur leads to just sticking with Silas being the better. Odin is going to be mediocre even reclassed because Samurai on its own is a bad class (it has good skills, but unless you have a legendary 1-2 blade it doesn't work out. Levein sword would be great for Br and is great in REV, but Conquest has quite a few maps that just laught at magic as a whole). Xander and Camilla really enjoy going to Hero and Wyvern Lord respectively, but they are good enough that they don't really need that boost ASAP.

Felicia 1 can be argued, but she really wants to stay as maid til Tomebreaker or once you get past Orochi's squad in C14, whichever comes last.

[Carmine Sword]

i mean, who else needs that Heart Seal as badly as Mozu while reaping more benefits besides Jakob1?

Corrin to go Cavalier/Wyvern/Ninja for more move/flight/1-2 range.

[Gwimpage]

Corrin definitely wants to promote with one of the early heart seals for the reasons Carmine Sword already pointed out. When you have very two strong options such as Corrin and Jakob, it's difficult to justify giving Mozu one of the seals over them since you see returns immediately from both Corrin/Jakob when Mozu boils down to just being a potential unit that's only effective on player phase. Mozu's best argument for taking a seal early on is when you're playing as Male Corrin where the second Heart seal is less contested since Jakob isn't around. When you're playing as Male Corrin the other potential candidates are users that appreciate it , but don't exactly need it such as Camilla, Felicia, and Selena.

Mozu's fine when you train her up and for a lot of players it's fun to watch your shrimp turn into a titan, however in an efficiency tierlist context we're trying to beat the game in a fast manner where Mozu's contributions are replicated by your other units without the heavy investment. Mozu offers good combat on player phase and flight after a Kinshi promotion which both aren't unique and you have alternatives (I was originally going to list them, but then realized they're mostly top-high tier characters anyways).

- I doubt Azura's getting paired off to recruit Shigure in a timely fashion because of the reduced support points for refreshing and an Azura in the back of pairup is a waste of a turn of refreshing. If you want an alternative for Selena just capture a Pegasus knight from Ch10 or 14 and instant promote them. It's easy to train them up since they'll have instant Beast killer access and they don't require a Heart seal.

- Instead of tomebreaker Felicia just send Kaze to mop up the mages in Ch13. It doesn't require training up Felicia to C rank shuriken (lol her physical damage output) or have her reach Lv15 for a small portion of a map. Calamity Gate Orochi is a bit scary for Kaze, but there's a gate close to her and she's easily baited on Turn 1 by tricking her AI into setting up an Attack Stance.

[Shadow Mir]

- I doubt Azura's getting paired off to recruit Shigure in a timely fashion because of the reduced support points for refreshing and an Azura in the back of pairup is a waste of a turn of refreshing. If you want an alternative for Selena just capture a Pegasus knight from Ch10 or 14 and instant promote them. It's easy to train them up since they'll have instant Beast killer access and they don't require a Heart seal.

I'm afraid PKL's given that the thumbs down. He stated that generics are a no-no.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Gwimpage]

Maybe for the list here so we can just ignore that bit, but the Pegasus generic is a low cost and an easy way to pick up Rally Speed or another ferrybot.

[-Cynthia-]

Corrin wants to reclass early particularly to gain weapon ranks in shurikens/tomes/whatever. Waiting until midgame to get out of E ranks is not a great use of one of our best units. I guess if Corrin has a Samurai talent or something it doesn't really matter as much to be fair.

[guedesbrawl]

Corrin definitely doesn't get as much out of a heart seal as jakob and Mozu for one simple reason: Nohr Prince is an acceptably good class, and Nohr noble is a great class. But i suppose you guys are rushing and not using Draccorin properly given the almost-LTC properties that the tier list is enforcing so wtvs. I'm out.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Dragonstone Corrin is pretty good, yes! But using a Heart Seal is still a negative for Mozu since that's a contested resource. It is for Jakob and Corrin too, to be clear. The difference is that if they don't use it, they're still great units.

Also frankly the type of favouritism you want to give Mozu will make most units good. Charlotte, for instance, has even more offensive cannon potential than Mozu does, if we're willing to bear with her bad start.

[Vorena]

I'm not saying it is without merit, just that selling it that as part of the "vanilla" tier list reasoning is... literally wrong. "Category" seems like a nice word here.

Like before: i totally get it doing for games that rank or reward you for quick clears. CQ has three or so maps that press you for time throughout the entire run and don't let you stop and tank things after a point (like C7 does), but otherwise taking an absurd turn count to do a job or even just slowing down for a couple turns... doesn't detract from anything besides your sanity. (Deaths while turtling are the thing of despair--luckily you can use Casual mode to Lab some stuff out before doing a true run)

LTC!Mozu is completely out of question, but in a run where you are going for fast clears but not exactly LTC (which is what i understand this tier list seems to be based on), Mozu is probably still a worthwhile investment even if you run low on funds because you are reclassing both her and Jakob1. If you are using him.

i mean, who else needs that Heart Seal as badly as Mozu while reaping more benefits besides Jakob1? Selena's combat still sucks and you have Shigure for rally duty, Beruka has better combat but loses utility so it's better to just go with Arthur who is only slightly worse as a Fighter. Doing the same with Arthur leads to just sticking with Silas being the better. Odin is going to be mediocre even reclassed because Samurai on its own is a bad class (it has good skills, but unless you have a legendary 1-2 blade it doesn't work out. Levein sword would be great for Br and is great in REV, but Conquest has quite a few maps that just laught at magic as a whole). Xander and Camilla really enjoy going to Hero and Wyvern Lord respectively, but they are good enough that they don't really need that boost ASAP.

Felicia 1 can be argued, but she really wants to stay as maid til Tomebreaker or once you get past Orochi's squad in C14, whichever comes last.

That is the hard thing with efficiency. How fast is fast? In general, me taking time on Mozu's paralogue chapter to literally feed her all the KOs on the map to bring up her lv 1 stat straight up to another unit comparable to the rest of my units from like Chapter 1 to Chapter 6 to me is not efficiency. Its quite slow actually to do this. What would be more reasonable would be that Mozu might get a few KOs that amount to say 2 levels rather than 6. If you were going for LTC category Mozu would be one of the worst units period to get since doing her paralogue actually costs you total turns in the whole campaign to get.

The interesting thing about Mozu is that giving her a Heart Seal in a way limits her early game combat return. Locking to 2-range weapon has never really been good in any FE game that I am aware of. FE12 was good for someone being sniper due to things like say Counter on enemies, and early game Dracoknights being really hard to kill with most anyone else. Though overall no matter what mode you play the game is predominantly 1-2 range or 1 range. You need very limited circumstances to get Mozu to have enemy phase usage. Otherwise, she is primarily regulated to killing stuff on player phase. However, you can have someone like Corrin tank like 2-3 enemies in Dragon, then turn around into Sword Form to double stuff. Which is more usage overall for attacking routinely on enemy and player phase. So, Mozu actually gets limited usage until promotion where she gets 1-range weapon. If anything, not reclassing Mozu actually allows her to build the ability to be used on enemy phase with usage of her lance and in future with either Merchant or Master of Arms. The unfortunate thing is that Mozu really doesn't get super helpful skills in really either route from villager. Kinshi Knight is probably the best overall class for skills, usage against other airborn enemies, and utility. You simply have to let her get into it from Archer. Which if going at a brisk pace can be hard to always secure enough feeding exp to get her leveled up quickly.

Corrin definitely doesn't get as much out of a heart seal as jakob and Mozu for one simple reason: Nohr Prince is an acceptably good class, and Nohr noble is a great class. But i suppose you guys are rushing and not using Draccorin properly given the almost-LTC properties that the tier list is enforcing so wtvs. I'm out.

I am curious about the reclass as well. I think Corrin does well with most any class since respectable growths over all, +20% exp gain. I suppose the Paladin class would be very useful due to movement and overall general utility. Though I am not sure.

Dragonstone Corrin is pretty good, yes! But using a Heart Seal is still a negative for Mozu since that's a contested resource. It is for Jakob and Corrin too, to be clear. The difference is that if they don't use it, they're still great units.

Also frankly the type of favouritism you want to give Mozu will make most units good. Charlotte, for instance, has even more offensive cannon potential than Mozu does, if we're willing to bear with her bad start.

Interesting. Time to go look at Charlotte. Never really paid much attention to her. The attitude towards men has never been a favorite of mein.

[GoXDS]

Corrin definitely doesn't get as much out of a heart seal as jakob and Mozu for one simple reason: Nohr Prince is an acceptably good class, and Nohr noble is a great class. But i suppose you guys are rushing and not using Draccorin properly given the almost-LTC properties that the tier list is enforcing so wtvs. I'm out.

efficiency doesn't does not inherently mean rushing. it simply means not slowing down unnecessarily. if anything, true LTC is one extreme while what you're pushing for is learning towards the opposite extreme. on that side of extremes, where we set added utility of a unit being able to reduce turn count to be 0, a lot of lower tier units after a certain point simply end up having the same maximum utility.

how I see it, a tier list is basically utility/investment. taking extra turns to feed is a form of investment. you cannot deny that babying a unit does not bring down their place on the list on some level (even it's not a switch in placement, it could be a shrinking of a gap between 2 units). otherwise, in an extreme example, I can decide to grind Azura in Ch 4 to really, really high lvls (what lvl does she stop gaining dance exp anyways?). in a less extreme example, would you argue that Charlotte deserves more then? because I'd argue she has higher max utility than Mozu given her 75% Str and 65% Spd growths and at 20/10 having 34.75 Str and 28.35 Spd compared to Mozu's Sniper 26.2/33.2 and weaker weapon (or 22.3/32 as Kinshi). Charlotte also has one of the best Pair Ups. especially as mentioned that Mozu's lock to 2 Range so she'll still require more investment until promotion where she's still locked (Sniper), or much weaker but flight/Mov

you could also save Mozu's paralogue to invest the exp you could funnel into Mozu into another character, one that might have higher max utility (like Charlotte). so in that case, even if we don't care about having ridiculous turn counts, does this change many units' placements?

Edited December 21, 2016 by GoXDS

[Vorena]

I really don't think the gap between Sophie and Dwyer (if we account for it at all when considering their fathers) is large enough to offset Jakob 1's advantages as a unit. By your own analysis Jakob beats Silas pretty bad until the latter promotes and is competitive enough thereafter. Remember that he still has access to L15 skills other units do not. Trample or Swordfaire/Lancefaire will nicely offset any Str edge Silas has, for instance.

I would not say by pretty bad. I suppose I cannot really say here where his usefulness drops off by for Silas. Once you account for say 5 levels of Jakob growth to match the same EXP consumption as Silas does when he appears, the fact you have +1 points from Defender, +2 Res from Butler, and Paladin over Cavalier promotion stats you get the following difference in base stats without any further growth from either character.

Hp  Str Mag  Skl  Spd Lck  Def Res
0   0   0    0    0   0    0   0    Silas 
3.5 4   4.25 4.75 3.5 6.75 1.5 7.75 Jakob 

Jakob does indeed beat out Silas in every single category. However, this is only for as long as Jakob has access to a promotion and Defender when Silas does not. As soon as this occurs Jakob's advantages virtually go away and the margin between the decreaeses by quite a bit. Not only that, but with say 14 levels of growth on hand and Silas will have gained about -2.1 hp, +2.1 str, +1.4 skl, +0.7 spd, -0.7 lck, +2.1 def, +0 res compared to a Silas that got the exact same number of growths.

Effectively, the moment Silas promotes much of any early game advantage Jakob had over Silas will be gone. They will continue to be effectively the same unit until Silas picks up Defender by which time he will have truly out paced Jakob as a whle in regards to nearly every single stat except HP and luck.

Huh... I suppose when you think about it Jakob being better than Silas even if only by a bit all the way from beginning game to the time Silas becomes Paladin +lv5 is honestly quite a large portion of the game. When you think about it too depending upon Silas's spouse you might very well be obsoleting even him by late game in favor of a Sophie who will be effective immediately. However, if you do use Sophie Silas makes a very good pair-up due to supports.

Yeah, I guess it is hard to say Silas over Jakob at all.

Edited December 21, 2016 by Vorena

[Shadow Mir]

how I see it, a tier list is basically utility/investment. taking extra turns to feed is a form of investment. you cannot deny that babying a unit does not bring down their place on the list on some level (even it's not a switch in placement, it could be a shrinking of a gap between 2 units). otherwise, in an extreme example, I can decide to grind Azura in Ch 4 to really, really high lvls (what lvl does she stop gaining dance exp anyways?). in a less extreme example, would you argue that Charlotte deserves more then? because I'd argue she has higher max utility than Mozu given her 75% Str and 65% Spd growths and at 20/10 having 34.75 Str and 28.35 Spd compared to Mozu's Sniper 26.2/33.2 and weaker weapon (or 22.3/32 as Kinshi). Charlotte also has one of the best Pair Ups. especially as mentioned that Mozu's lock to 2 Range so she'll still require more investment until promotion where she's still locked (Sniper), or much weaker but flight/Mov

you could also save Mozu's paralogue to invest the exp you could funnel into Mozu into another character, one that might have higher max utility (like Charlotte). so in that case, even if we don't care about having ridiculous turn counts, does this change many units' placements?

Erm, what class is Charlotte supposed to be in this case?

[-Cynthia-]

Part of the thing with Silas/Jakob is that yes, once Silas promotes Silas is probably better than Jakob...but around Silas' promotion (unless you early promote him, but he kinda needs the stats) we have units like Xander/Leo that come in that are better than Silas by virtue of having 1-2 range that can double.

Edited December 21, 2016 by -Cynthia-

[GoXDS]

Erm, what class is Charlotte supposed to be in this case?

the answer you'd like the least ^^

keep in mind this is being used as a counterpoint rather than me actually pushing for it. the investment needed is still high enough to offset the max utility

[guedesbrawl]

That is the hard thing with efficiency. How fast is fast? In general, me taking time on Mozu's paralogue chapter to literally feed her all the KOs on the map to bring up her lv 1 stat straight up to another unit comparable to the rest of my units from like Chapter 1 to Chapter 6 to me is not efficiency. Its quite slow actually to do this. What would be more reasonable would be that Mozu might get a few KOs that amount to say 2 levels rather than 6. If you were going for LTC category Mozu would be one of the worst units period to get since doing her paralogue actually costs you total turns in the whole campaign to get.

The interesting thing about Mozu is that giving her a Heart Seal in a way limits her early game combat return. Locking to 2-range weapon has never really been good in any FE game that I am aware of. FE12 was good for someone being sniper due to things like say Counter on enemies, and early game Dracoknights being really hard to kill with most anyone else. Though overall no matter what mode you play the game is predominantly 1-2 range or 1 range. You need very limited circumstances to get Mozu to have enemy phase usage. Otherwise, she is primarily regulated to killing stuff on player phase. However, you can have someone like Corrin tank like 2-3 enemies in Dragon, then turn around into Sword Form to double stuff. Which is more usage overall for attacking routinely on enemy and player phase. So, Mozu actually gets limited usage until promotion where she gets 1-range weapon. If anything, not reclassing Mozu actually allows her to build the ability to be used on enemy phase with usage of her lance and in future with either Merchant or Master of Arms. The unfortunate thing is that Mozu really doesn't get super helpful skills in really either route from villager. Kinshi Knight is probably the best overall class for skills, usage against other airborn enemies, and utility. You simply have to let her get into it from Archer. Which if going at a brisk pace can be hard to always secure enough feeding exp to get her leveled up quickly.

To me it is a long-term investment, given just how early Mozu is acquired and how soon she starts becoming useful (literally chapter 8). and that's just with half a map given to her. (i've seen people claiming you can give the entire thing with mozu, but without a flier i don't see it). By chapter 10 she should by all rights be ORKO every enemy that isn't named, and as long as she has attack stance for 1-2 range, she does it safely.

I totally get this 1-map investment bringing her down in any tier list. Mozu cannot and will never be S rank exactly because she demands a heart seal and some time in one map (as well as some care in the next, as she is still fragile), which also translates to requiring a 2500g investment in case you are using Jakob1 who will always have a bigger impact even though he will never contribute as much as Mozu as soon as the 1st half of the game ends unless you married him to Corrin for extra classes. (i would say "but anyone can do this", yet not anyone gets promoted skills as fast so it is still a legit pro for him)

But i suppose that as long as "efficiency" is ever a concern an archer can't be good. I never had this concept in mind, so i played in the way archers shined: baiting enemies with a couple units in one turn and clearing the area with all of my units in the next. Lack of 1 range literally never was a problem for me in any fire emblem and early on it was sometimes useful to trick the ai into not attacking someone else. And oftentimes my archers very much had action in Enemy Phase because, you know, you can bait people at 2 range. That's how you deal with enemies that are over walls.

To me if you are not a tank, it doesn't matter if you have 1-2 access. You are not seeing enemy phase. You can totally make up for that in enemy phase, imo.

And of note: effective tanks tank as much as they are able to. Which means they take a lot of damage. Which means you, eventually, waste a turn healing them and the resources that come with that. There is always, always a trade-off.

I suppose you guys focus "efficiency" as "not wasting time". That is indeed part of the word's meaning, but it is worth remembering that "not wasting effort" is part of the word as well.

in other words: Jakob1 gives you an extremely good unit early for no effort, no time. But he will fall so hard later on that he will be just on a support/clean-up role unless he married Corrin to have skills (which has its own cost in more heart seals). Mozu requires time and effort in two maps, and then starts getting going as simply never stops being useful in combat.

This is why i question Mozu being an auto-bottom. The effort you do not waste by bringing her into battle is the compensation for the investment and time early, just as Jakob1 pays the price for breaking the earlygame by not being worth as much later.

efficiency doesn't does not inherently mean rushing. it simply means not slowing down unnecessarily. if anything, true LTC is one extreme while what you're pushing for is learning towards the opposite extreme. on that side of extremes, where we set added utility of a unit being able to reduce turn count to be 0, a lot of lower tier units after a certain point simply end up having the same maximum utility.

how I see it, a tier list is basically utility/investment. taking extra turns to feed is a form of investment. you cannot deny that babying a unit does not bring down their place on the list on some level (even it's not a switch in placement, it could be a shrinking of a gap between 2 units). otherwise, in an extreme example, I can decide to grind Azura in Ch 4 to really, really high lvls (what lvl does she stop gaining dance exp anyways?). in a less extreme example, would you argue that Charlotte deserves more then? because I'd argue she has higher max utility than Mozu given her 75% Str and 65% Spd growths and at 20/10 having 34.75 Str and 28.35 Spd compared to Mozu's Sniper 26.2/33.2 and weaker weapon (or 22.3/32 as Kinshi). Charlotte also has one of the best Pair Ups. especially as mentioned that Mozu's lock to 2 Range so she'll still require more investment until promotion where she's still locked (Sniper), or much weaker but flight/Mov

you could also save Mozu's paralogue to invest the exp you could funnel into Mozu into another character, one that might have higher max utility (like Charlotte). so in that case, even if we don't care about having ridiculous turn counts, does this change many units' placements?

i understand the points you are trying to convey but you've got some things wrong.

1- Literally no chapter in conquest has that turn count reduction being 0. You know why? Because if you overcommit to turtling most of the time you die. you turtle one turn, and wipe the enemy out in the next. If your party doesn't have the STR/MAG/SPD/Skills to deal the damage, HP/DEF/RES/SPD/Range to ensure survival and not drain resources with healing, and the SKL/LCK to ensure they can reliably combat, they would be taken down a peg in the tier list for each point they fail at excelling.

If you don't kill the enemy they kill you. Reinforcements in almost all maps go hunt you down, so it is not as extreme as you think.

2- there is a very fine line between boss/arena/dance/sing/my castle abuse and babying an unit. I still understand the point, and it is true that there is no way to "regulate" this. i mean, you could say "if you are not directly contributing to clearing the chapter's objective it is banned", which would invalidate abuse but still allow for babying. But that leaves the loophole of "preparing to bait the enemy" as theoretically Sing abuse can be seen as preparing an ambush thanks to inspiring song. You could also argue that spending 30 turns immobile because of healing descant is fine...

3- Charlotte as an example doesn't hold up. she will never be as useful as Mozu besides pair-bot utility for four reasons:

A) There are more targets that mozu can safely eliminate than Charlotte can because one will need to be up close and is counting on doubling (read: possibility of counter attacks or... just counter) and the other can do it from the safety of 2-range. Attack stance can help, but that requires more setup to work (read: effort).

B) Charlotte will always have really bad skill whereas mozu not only has good skill but gets Certain Blow.

C) Charlotte is actually hard to baby because she comes under levelled at the midgame and has these two above issues hit her much harder than they would when she catches up; and for sure much harder than they ever hit mozu.

D) This ties into the last point you made: Charlotte can only use Mozu's paralogue to grind weapon ranks. It does not offer enough EXP for her to get going as much as it does for mozu earlier.

[GoXDS]

i understand the points you are trying to convey but you've got some things wrong.

1- Literally no chapter in conquest has that turn count reduction being 0. You know why? Because if you overcommit to turtling most of the time you die. you turtle one turn, and wipe the enemy out in the next. If your party doesn't have the STR/MAG/SPD/Skills to deal the damage, HP/DEF/RES/SPD/Range to ensure survival and not drain resources with healing, and the SKL/LCK to ensure they can reliably combat, they would be taken down a peg in the tier list for each point they fail at excelling.

If you don't kill the enemy they kill you. Reinforcements in almost all maps go hunt you down, so it is not as extreme as you think.

2- there is a very fine line between boss/arena/dance/sing/my castle abuse and babying an unit. I still understand the point, and it is true that there is no way to "regulate" this. i mean, you could say "if you are not directly contributing to clearing the chapter's objective it is banned", which would invalidate abuse but still allow for babying. But that leaves the loophole of "preparing to bait the enemy" as theoretically Sing abuse can be seen as preparing an ambush thanks to inspiring song. You could also argue that spending 30 turns immobile because of healing descant is fine...

3- Charlotte as an example doesn't hold up. she will never be as useful as Mozu besides pair-bot utility for four reasons:

A) There are more targets that mozu can safely eliminate than Charlotte can because one will need to be up close and is counting on doubling (read: possibility of counter attacks or... just counter) and the other can do it from the safety of 2-range. Attack stance can help, but that requires more setup to work (read: effort).

B) Charlotte will always have really bad skill whereas mozu not only has good skill but gets Certain Blow.

C) Charlotte is actually hard to baby because she comes under levelled at the midgame and has these two above issues hit her much harder than they would when she catches up; and for sure much harder than they ever hit mozu.

D) This ties into the last point you made: Charlotte can only use Mozu's paralogue to grind weapon ranks. It does not offer enough EXP for her to get going as much as it does for mozu earlier.

1) Unit 1 can be used in a non-turtle or turtle strat in more situations than Unit 2, who's more limited to just turtling, then Unit 1 should be ranked higher. but in a strat that defaults to turtling, these two Units would basically be ranked the same (which is what I meant by the utility of Unit 1 being able to non-turtle being set to 0 because if you won't be taking advantage of it, it's basically 0 anyways). you're taking the word "extreme" too literally. just because it's an extreme doesn't mean it's not a valid strat, just like LTC isn't impossible. I was only pointing it out as the far opposite ideology. plus, I said you were leaning towards the extreme

2) most people wouldn't view 30 turns as fine, turtling or not. I brought up Azura not because of early song (though that's a point, too), but that you can bring her to Tier 2 lvls (assuming Dance Exp doesn't drop to 0) and now you have another contender for Heart Seal. she does have fantastic Str and Spd. and she has access to Kinshi so she can have similar if not far better capabilities than early Mozu. maybe babying might not have been the ideal phrase to use but it's still anything that requires you to take extra attention and to slow down because said unit cannot hold its own weight yet. as for the other examples you bring up, it'd be pretty silly to label any of those as babying.

3) A) Tomahawk is a thing + see B) w/ Mozu. and Charlotte can see way more EP action if there's a bunch of lance users (though in a turtling strat, this is mostly moot). and against units that she can't double anyways, Hand axe (which also can deal with 1 Range, which is still an advantage even if you say no 1-range isn't a disadvantage)

B) Attack Stance and/or Guard Stance can help with Hit. and you'd mostly send her in for WTA where she has Hit bonuses anyways. and going off for a second, you mentioned that Mozu should be ORKOing stuff by 10? let's see, enemies are ~Lvl 8-9 so we'll put Mozu's Lvl 8 stats here (Archer): 10.55 Str/12.6 Spd + Iron Bow 8 Mt (D Rank). a Spear Fighter has 25 HP/10 Def/11 Spd. so, she's doing ~8.55 dmg. where's the ORKO? Ninjas? 23 HP/6 Def, so 12.55 dmg. still no ORKO. who the heck is providing 10~17 dmg Dual Strikes?

just for fun, how would Charlotte do if we nerfed her to Lvl 8? 13.5 Str and 11.7 Spd with Iron Axe 8 Mt. deals 15.5 to Ninja and 11.5 to Spear Fighter. 19.5/15.5 respectively with Steel. easy ORKO without counter attack on Ninja with Dual Strike. Spear Fighter can be ORKO'ed with +1 Str and +4 Spd

C) Mozu is also hard to baby because of 2-range lock. she can only go for 1 kill every player phase only. especially in her paralogue. that's a lot of effort to get her kills as 2-range lock

D) at least Charlotte starts C Rank Axes compared to Mozu who starts at E Rank and 2-range locked. do Paralogue 1 enemies scale? in either case, Charlotte doesn't need as much babying to catch up as Mozu. so she'll be able to gain outside the paralogue more easily than Mozu

Edited December 21, 2016 by GoXDS

[eclipse]

Azura's ranking is due to her singing, not combat ability. I think she'd fall pretty hard if we assume that she leaves Songstress.