A slightly more abstract/difficult question

[TheKingBahamut]

WARNING: This will likely be a fairly long post. I'll try to trim the fat as much as possible, but I can't guarantee that I'll be able to get all the points I want to make across without a fairly long wall of text. But hey, I'm a 'Merican. Building walls is apparently a thing we like to do X(

At any rate, a short story: some months ago, I got an impulse to try my hand at hacking/modding Fire Emblem games. What happened was, I started out by writing a short "blueprint" for a story that I thought could work well as the story for a Fire Emblem game. I didn't have a lot of specifics down, merely ideas for characters that I thought would be interesting to work with. I didn't exactly plan of expanding it too much at the time, but it was fun to brainstorm how such a thing would play out. Then, a friend of mine who makes content on YouTube posted a video debating about the quality of the newer Fire Emblem titles versus the older ones. Regardless of my opinion on the quality of the various titles (And I do like Awakening and Fates, for the record), after watching the video, I felt compelled to share the story blueprint I created with him. He said it was really good. Some days later, another friend of mine posted a similar video about what the FE franchise should do to get "back on track," so to speak, and once again, I showed him my blueprint I made. He also thought it was really good, but he also told me that it might make a good idea for a hack of some sort. He pointed me in the direction of Ghast, and watching his videos about Bloodlines, as well as Mangs' playthroughs of similar hacks like Staff of Ages, got me interested.

I henceforth began looking into the process of creating FE ROMHacks, which led me here to the forums. Originally, I went in with the n00b mentality of "I can't do technical stuff. I should ask for other people to do that for me and focus on the stuff I'm good at!" That obviously did not end well. I made two separate threads asking for people's help and got nothing in the way of responses. Frustrated, I decided to ask for advice about finding help, and I got a pretty overwhelming response for it. The answers people gave me mostly boiled down to "start with a smaller project to learn the basics. Prove that you can do the basic stuff by yourself, and show that you are worth the time for others to invest into you." And I did take that to heart.

It has been about a month since I made that post, and I've done just about everything I can to learn what I can about hacking. I started a small project with which to learn how to create a chapter and units and maps and the like. I've downloaded the tools I need. I've poured over many tutorials, including InvdrZim's FE8 eventing tutorial. And I have learned many things from it. And yet... some things just aren't clicking.

The truth is, I'm just not that much of a tech guy. My aptitude is more towards storytelling, creating characters, and music (and even then, I'm not that skilled in those things). That doesn't mean I can't learn technical stuff, or that I don't understand the basics behind making a hack. Yet, with the project I'm doing, I find that even though I might know at least some of the steps I need to take, keeping up with all the data or trying to wrap my mind around certain steps makes my head hurt.

I think at least part of it has to do with the way that I learn. When I started learning how to use Pro Tools, the way that I learned it was that my teacher showed me how the different aspects of it worked, and we started certain projects together, and then as I grew more comfortable with the program, I started doing more and more of the work by myself. That's how I learn best: with one-on-one tutoring, watching someone go through the steps, and then trying it myself. And I can't exactly get that from the hacking community, given that most of the knowledgeable people are already busy with their own projects. Hacking is, by and large, a do it yourself kind of thing, and that doesn't really click with me that much.

It is entirely possible that hacking and programming games isn't my calling. And I don't have a problem with that, except for one small rub: I'm very passionate about telling this particular story. And I want to tell it as a game, not as something else. Even beyond this one story, I have other story ideas that I want to make into games, each with interesting gameplay ideas and mechanics that I think would be fun. But they are just that: ideas. I'm an ideas person, and as I've learned, ideas aren't worth much, especially if you have nothing else to back them up with. Learning how to back these ideas up is fine, but even with my best efforts, it doesn't mean I'm going to get it, especially if I'm learning by myself.

I firmly believe that if someone's passion for something is strong enough, they can overcome any obstacle. It could be that all I need is just somebody telling me "nut up, shut up, and git gud" or to have my determination stoked by someone telling me I should quit and I won't amount to anything and feeling compelled to prove them wrong. The point is, I have a dream in mind. I don't want to give up on that dream, no matter what, but even taking the small steps towards it is proving difficult. I feel stuck. And I need advice.

[Primefusion]

The advice you're going to get kind of depends on how you want to move forward: Do you still want to learn the technical aspects of modding (events, music insertion, etc)? If so, identify what you're struggling with and we can try to help you.

If you're not keen on trying to get further with the modding side of things, you could try posting screenshots of what you've got and see if you can interest some folks in helping you out. If you go this route, it will help to identify what parts of the workload you'll be taking on (sounds like writing and composition so far). If you show that you're totally willing to put in the work that you know you can handle, I think people will be more willing to lend a hand.

[Master Awesome]

I was in the exact same boat as you 5 or 6 years ago (ew that's a long time). FE7 was my favorite game ever, and then I learned you could hack it and change stuff and I was like holy shit. I had ideas for an entire game (based on 7) and I wanted to implement them, so I started looking into it. Either I'm stupid or slow, but I really didn't start my hack for another 2 or 3 years. For those first years, I read and learned and experimented and cried and failed, but I was learning how to do things and getting closer through trial and error. I would put hacking down for months at a time and come back not remembering a damn thing, but here I am now and I'm 15 chapters through my hack, 5 of which I've steamrolled out in the past few weeks.

The technical stuff was always my problem. I would write events *perfectly* and assemble them, then my game would glitch up and I'd rip my hair out because it didn't make sense. All because I put ALIGN 4 inside a label and not outside or because I ended with ENDA instead of LOCA. And I didn't even ask for help for some reason. I always tried to fix it myself or deal with it later.

I think patience is the biggest thing here. If you are passionate, and are willing to follow through, you're honestly just gonna have to learn some stuff. I hope this doesn't upset you, but (at least for me) 1 month in the hacking world is like nothing. Yeah, you can learn a lot of stuff in a month, but you need to test and do it all yourself. And that can take a while.

I'm not saying you need to do a smaller project (though you should if you want others' help). You could just start your project from scratch and go as far as you can go until you get stuck, then ask for help. I started my project immediately, but I never really got anywhere because I wasn't good at eventing/ everything else, but the important thing was that I learned a ton from it. I edited almost everything in Lyn's story, and while it was a mess, and I restarted again, I learned so much.

I really do wish you luck. If you have a good idea, then do it. Just understand that it's going to take some time. And it's going to take some time to learn and assimilate to rom hacking.

[SentryDown]

I'm going to be honest, you have good intentions to start romhacking, but I really do not know what kind of question you have or help that you are seeking. This just reads like an attention grabbing post to see if anyone would help, but no one will help unless you're specific.

[CT075]

i'm not entirely sure what you're hoping we're gonna say here

"that sucks"?

"oh i'm sorry let me do it for you"?

"give up"?

I would write events *perfectly* and assemble them, then my game would glitch up and I'd rip my hair out because it didn't make sense.

i would assume that, by definition, that would mean that your events weren't perfect

[Zane Avernathy]

The best part about a story is that it can be told in many ways. If you can't manage a hack, write it out as a traditional story, or, possibly, tell it through another medium. You could do it as a spritefic (if those even exist, still), or a mix of mockup screenshots and written segments.

[TheKingBahamut]

The advice you're going to get kind of depends on how you want to move forward: Do you still want to learn the technical aspects of modding (events, music insertion, etc)? If so, identify what you're struggling with and we can try to help you.

If you're not keen on trying to get further with the modding side of things, you could try posting screenshots of what you've got and see if you can interest some folks in helping you out. If you go this route, it will help to identify what parts of the workload you'll be taking on (sounds like writing and composition so far). If you show that you're totally willing to put in the work that you know you can handle, I think people will be more willing to lend a hand.

There's a part of me that wants to continue learning about the technical aspects, if only because knowing at least a little of what to do yourself is kind of important. However, the issue I'm having is that for every one thing about modding I understand, I don't understand 2 more things.

As for screenshotting what I've got... not much, honestly. I had an idea about posting the script for the chapters I've written so far (it's text only), and maybe putting some links to music I've written is an idea. But with no real visual aid... not really going to grab other people.

Also, to quote InvdrZim: "Getting other people to do eventing for you is kinda impossible."

The best part about a story is that it can be told in many ways. If you can't manage a hack, write it out as a traditional story, or, possibly, tell it through another medium. You could do it as a spritefic (if those even exist, still), or a mix of mockup screenshots and written segments.

Now this is an interesting idea.

[Master Awesome]

i would assume that, by definition, that would mean that your events weren't perfect

95% perfect is perfect enough for me

[InvdrZim13]

The entire thing is a learning process, you'll keep running into things you don't know how to do and you'll figure out how to use them (either by reading the doc or asking a question and hoping someone else knows how to do it).

Eventing and programming are two different beasts, the hardest part of eventing is doing the conditional stuff right, and honestly that's not too hard. Most of eventing is just using the same codes to do the same thing for each chapter (load text, load units, move units, scripted fights, loading/clearing backgrounds, etc).

People with no programming experience or ability can learn eventing no problem, it's easy to learn, moderately difficult to master. But nobody starts out being amazing at it. When I switched SoA to FE8, I had to bug circleseverywhere and alfredkamon all the time because I couldn't figure out what the FE8 version of x was. I probably could've read the EA documentation and figured it out, but the shitty point I'm trying to make here is that everyone starts from 0, and it's up to you to stay motivated and obtain a mastery of the system.

Don't try to do everything all at once, take it once step at a time and you'll have a far better time trying to do it.

[TheKingBahamut]

The entire thing is a learning process, you'll keep running into things you don't know how to do and you'll figure out how to use them (either by reading the doc or asking a question and hoping someone else knows how to do it).

Eventing and programming are two different beasts, the hardest part of eventing is doing the conditional stuff right, and honestly that's not too hard. Most of eventing is just using the same codes to do the same thing for each chapter (load text, load units, move units, scripted fights, loading/clearing backgrounds, etc).

People with no programming experience or ability can learn eventing no problem, it's easy to learn, moderately difficult to master. But nobody starts out being amazing at it. When I switched SoA to FE8, I had to bug circleseverywhere and alfredkamon all the time because I couldn't figure out what the FE8 version of x was. I probably could've read the EA documentation and figured it out, but the shitty point I'm trying to make here is that everyone starts from 0, and it's up to you to stay motivated and obtain a mastery of the system.

Don't try to do everything all at once, take it once step at a time and you'll have a far better time trying to do it.

Actually, I think that reading this helped me isolate the problem.

It's not necessarily that I can't do eventing, it's that while I can do certain bits and pieces of it just fine, I have issues with turning those bits and pieces into a cohesive whole. Which is to say, I can write out the whole chapter events thing or do the "tell the game to put this text at this offset id" thing, but am less certain about how to turn those bits into a full-blown chapter.

And that's probably a bigger problem to have than just simply not getting eventing at all.

[InvdrZim13]

If you can do bits of it fine you shouldn't have any trouble making it into a whole thing. Try an alternate way of thinking, instead of events for a chapter, think of it as stage directions and dialogue for a play, or something. You need this backdrop and song while these actors are talking, these extras need to come onto the stage, etc.

I don't actively participate in theater so I don't know if that makes any sense.

Also, the codes and stuff aren't for fe8, but try reading Arch's guide to chapter construction if you haven't already, since it explains concepts better than my wiki.

Edited January 8, 2017 by InvdrZim13

[TheKingBahamut]

If you can do bits of it fine you shouldn't have any trouble making it into a whole thing. Try an alternate way of thinking, instead of events for a chapter, think of it as stage directions and dialogue for a play, or something. You need this backdrop and song while these actors are talking, these extras need to come onto the stage, etc.

I don't actively participate in theater so I don't know if that makes any sense.

Also, the codes and stuff aren't for fe8, but try reading Arch's guide to chapter construction if you haven't already, since it explains concepts better than my wiki.

Lol I actually do theatre in real life so that's a perfect analogy.

A thought occurred to me: it's possible that the MAKEHACK method of hacking isn't the best way to start learning. Even though I've heard a lot of horror stories about FEditor, it looks at least a little more user-friendly in some ways.

[Tequila]

Lol I actually do theatre in real life so that's a perfect analogy.

A thought occurred to me: it's possible that the MAKEHACK method of hacking isn't the best way to start learning. Even though I've heard a lot of horror stories about FEditor, it looks at least a little more user-friendly in some ways.

Oh, it's good enough to start off in. Make a test chapter, get used to events. I just wouldn't recommend using it for a full-blown hack.

[TheKingBahamut]

Oh, it's good enough to start off in. Make a test chapter, get used to events. I just wouldn't recommend using it for a full-blown hack.

Yeah, I figured. MAKEHACK is probably better in the long run for full projects, but trying to track all the data in it makes my head hurt. And honestly, I'd rather work with just a test chapter for now.

[Zane Avernathy]

The buildfile method keeps track of the data for you, whereas a feditor/nightmare/etc hodgepodge requires you to write down where your changes are made.

Well, maybe not, but if you don't, good luck fixing anything.

The buildfile method is great for test chapters once you have a basic structure set up.

[CT075]

the problem with the buildfile method is that it's very difficult to diagnose and fix user error if you don't know what you're doing

[TheKingBahamut]

The buildfile method keeps track of the data for you, whereas a feditor/nightmare/etc hodgepodge requires you to write down where your changes are made.

Well, maybe not, but if you don't, good luck fixing anything.

The buildfile method is great for test chapters once you have a basic structure set up.

The issue I have with the EA Buildfile method is that building stuff from scratch kinda... makes my head spin. I don't really know how to explain it very well without showing it to someone, and I'm not sure how I'd show it off.