[FE Switch Discussion] The Avatar

[ping]

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

One option is to do as others suggested and make the Avatar a minor character with no greater influence on the story. The second option would be to make them the main character and have your choices in game make a significant difference to how the plot unfolds.

I very much agree with this. The way Corrin and (as soon as the whole Grima business comes rolling) Robin are presented, it's a weird mixture of a avatar through whom the player is supposed to interact with the world and a "normal" main character since the player can't actually influence the unfolding events. Awakening tried to give the player the illusion of choice with its fake decisions and Fates gives the player that one huge choice near the beginning of the game on the goods shelf and then just lets the events unfold.

In that regard, I much prefer Marc and even Kris, as much hate as Kris (rightfully) receives. The latter suffers greatly because they were inserted into an existing (and working) character cast, but the role as a trusted advisor to the main lord that both share does work, imo. The player is still riding shotgun to Lyn/Eliwood&Hector/Marth and doesn't influence the story progression at all, but at least that's in line with the role they're given and it gives the other characters the opportunity to interact directly with the player.

The second option you gave looks pretty good to me as well, as long as those choices really are significant. The choice between an additional playable character and a pair of boots in Fates is a step in the right direction, but it's still a rather isolated choice and (as far as I know) doesn't have any impact on the rest of the story. But what if the player could actually choose how to interact with Camilla and Leo in that chapter in BR where Camilla almosts defects to them? And depending on that, they may either be convinced to help the player from the inside, opening another path to get to Garon? Or if the player keeps antagonizing them, Leo won't help them during the endgame at all, forcing the player to fight him again and maybe even kill him? Maybe it would even be possible for the player to interact with Xander in a way that he won't be such a collossal prick during the endgame?

That's the scope of influence for the player that I would like to see. Not necessarily a change in the ultimate goal (although an actually evil route in which Corrin supports Garron till the literal end of the world might have been fun as the bad ending of Fates), but choices that may save or doom certain characters, or change how Hoshido and Nohr interact after Garon's death etc.pp. would have been so much more interesting than the three predetermined routes to choose from.

[NekoKnight]

1 hour ago, InfinityAlex said:

Also interesting is the idea of an Avatar personality affecting your supports. I'm mixed about the idea, but in practice, I'm not sure how well it would be received. I think that the idea itself is great, but I'm not sure people would be thrilled about forcing the Avatar to be a certain person in order to allow him/her to marry certain people, especially if the game doesn't tell you which (and I highly doubt it would). I think some measure of mitigating this would be to compromise. Have the majority of the cast be locked to certain personalities, but allow Paralogue and DLC characters such as Anna, Gangrel, Tiki and Mozu to marry the Avatar regardless of the personality choice the player made. I don't think this would completely solve the problem, but I think it would be a good compromise between the two, and I'm certainly more in favour of being able to choose a personality for the avatar that allows them to play off of other characters in different ways in supports.

I think it's a reasonable compromise. You might not like being forced into a particular personality to get your waifu/husbando of choice, but the goal would be to have relationships that make sense. It only devalues a character to force them to love your avatar when their personality is conflicting with yours. Remember, it's not just about who YOU like, it's also about who the other character would like. Ideally, the game would treat the characters like people and not your trophy to be won.

Theoretically IS could write different supports for Avatar x EVERYONE so they can interact with different characters if different ways, but that would be a lot of extra work.

Edited January 18, 2017 by NekoKnight

[The DanMan]

I'd kinda like to see an inverse Robin situation; the dedicated retainer of the Avatar Lord gradually ends up with more plot importance and ends up usurping them as the main character by the third act.

29 minutes ago, NekoKnight said:

Theoretically IS could write different supports for Avatar x EVERYONE so they can interact with different characters if different ways, but that would be a lot of extra work.

But IS didn't write the supports in Fates; they outsourced them

[AlexArtsHere]

1 hour ago, NekoKnight said:

It only devalues a character to force them to love your avatar when their personality is conflicting with yours. Remember, it's not just about who YOU like, it's also about who the other character would like. Ideally, the game would treat the characters like people and not your trophy to be won.

I think this is super important, which is why I think the balance needs to be found between good writing and scenarios and what the players want. It's unrealistic and, thinking about it, devalues the characters in another way; conversations become less about their experience and more about filling the support log. With this in mind, I think supports should be kept hidden, though the way supports are achieved should remain. For example, even if the Lord has been recruited, he/she does not appear in the Avatar's support log until C Rank has been achieved (so after two paired up battles). Each rank is hidden until you reach it, so more emphasis is placed on the experience of building a relationship rather than filling slots. In place of S Ranks, units who are incompatible with the Avatar's personality trait could have A+ Ranks which explicitly define their relationship with the Avatar as a platonic one, either with one proposing and the other having to explain why they wouldn't be right together or with both units having mutual romantic disinterest. I feel this is more realistic and helps flesh out the characters as, well, characters. They're looking for a certain something in a life partner. However, I do think Paralogue and DLC characters could be exempt from this (at least the first three supports anyway).

[Roflolxp54]

I'm in the crowd that prefers Robin over Corrin when it comes to playable avatars (unless IS can improve on story writing).

Avatarsexuals are honestly pretty annoying even if they're the easiest characters to fill out supports for the support log since they often had more potential for character interactions, considering that Awakening and Fates pretty much went overboard with character interactions with support conversations. I don't mind not seeing Avatarsexuals unless:

• Superior character interaction between the Avatar and the Avatarsexual when compared to that between the Avatar and non-Avatarsexuals
• Plot-related shipping (make the relationship between the Avatar and the Avatarsexual not unlike that of Chrom+Robin or Corrin+Azura)
• Huge gameplay benefits like superior support-related bonuses, early join time and huge availability, fastest support growth with the Avatar, and, assuming that the children and inheritance mechanics return, superior growth rates and stat modifiers that are superior than those of even children characters, and perhaps unique class options/combinations not otherwise available outside of reclassing. And, while on the topic of children, if they do return, no forcing the Avatar to marry an Avatarsexual or a child character for the sake of recruiting all possible children.
• TL;DR: give good reasons for the players to pair their Avatars with Avatarsexuals without the game actually punishing them for choosing to do so or for not doing so.

Edited January 18, 2017 by Roflolxp54

[Masked And Dangerous]

Really, Kris was the best version of the concept, barring one thing: being the best character on the field.

The tactician should be more about Rallying then fighting.

[mikethepokemaster]

Is this game even a main title for fire emblem series. Seem more like a spinoff to me. I would love the Avatar character to return he probably won't for this game maybe on the switch he will but not on this one.

[AlexArtsHere]

Just now, mikethepokemaster said:

Is this game even a main title for fire emblem series. Seem more like a spinoff to me. I would love the Avatar character to return he probably won't for this game maybe on the switch he will but not on this one.

Uh, what? This was created before the Direct, so we had no idea we were getting Echoes.

[mikethepokemaster]

6 minutes ago, InfinityAlex said:

Uh, what? This was created before the Direct, so we had no idea we were getting Echoes.

I know that I was saying is the game a main title or spinoff game. They said a main title game would be on switch. I was also saying since this is a remake of a old fire emblem game it might not have the Avatar character, the one on the switch probably most likely will have it since it not a remake.

[AlexArtsHere]

1 hour ago, mikethepokemaster said:

I know that I was saying is the game a main title or spinoff game. They said a main title game would be on switch. I was also saying since this is a remake of a old fire emblem game it might not have the Avatar character, the one on the switch probably most likely will have it since it not a remake.

You still misunderstand. This thread is about the next mainseries game. At the time, we didn't know we were getting Echoes, so the thread was tentatively titled as an FE15 discussion referring to the next main game, now revealed to be in development for the Nintendo Switch.

[Cornguy]

2 hours ago, mikethepokemaster said:

I know that I was saying is the game a main title or spinoff game. They said a main title game would be on switch. I was also saying since this is a remake of a old fire emblem game it might not have the Avatar character, the one on the switch probably most likely will have it since it not a remake.

The ideas and conversation can still be salvaged and applied to FE Switch, as well as future titles. Before the Direct, I doubt any of us expected TWO non-spinoff FE titles to be announced.

[phoenixmiko]

I am interested to see in what capacity the Avatar will appear next, especially if there could be one in the new Switch game. As Echoes is most likely going to be a mini-series containing remakes, the Avatar may not be featured in these installments (apart from if a New Mystery of the Emblem remake is produced) because many of the older games did not have one. Then again, none of the older games except New Mystery had Casual Mode and this feature may be in the Echoes games so the Avatar could indeed come back too; they could be an intriguing addition to Echoes.

I am assuming the Switch game will be a title with a new story and characters or a sequel to a previous installment rather than a remake or spin-off; that would make it Fire Emblem 15 to me if it turns out to be the case. If the Switch release really is a new title, then I cannot see why the Avatar would not be in it - given that this feature is what became so popular after Awakening, the game that saved the series from being discontinued. I certainly hope that we get the Avatar again in the next new entry for Fire Emblem myself as I really like creating an original character or one based on myself to feel more immersed in the story!

Should the Switch game be a main entry (which I reckon it could well be), do you think it means Nintendo will release titles on just that console from then onward? I hope not. I would like to think that main titles would be released on 3DS as well so fans can choose to play them on whichever platform they prefer and not miss out.

Edited January 19, 2017 by phoenixmiko

[Tolvir]

They will likely come back for the main series. It has worked for them, it is one of the many things contributing to FE's comeback, it will likely return. The thing is, how much will the effect the plot? Will they be a main character again, or will they take a step back. Unfortunately, there is absolutely nothing to go on for FE Switch, since we got the Fire Emblem title and that was it, not even an official name.

Though I REALLY think E3 will have more on that. 2018 is next year, E3 sounds like a perfect time to throw out a teaser along with a name, with another Fire Emblem Direct around Fall/Winter to go into it some more, along with Warriors.

I still wonder if Echoes is getting the avatar, but that is for a different discussion.

Edited January 19, 2017 by Tolvir

[Sire]

Unless IS wants to go full on Avatar with the Avatar character being the main focus (think Fates, but a lot more nuanced and meaningful), I would prefer more of a background Avatar. The character could be a narrator (telling a story of the war, writing it down in a book, etc.) or simply happen to tag along the main Lord (bodyguard, conscripted soldier, villager the Lord saved, and so on).

I liked Xenoblade Chronicles X's avatar. All the avatar was a rookie, but he has a bad*** rookie who happened to tag along with Elma and company. God Eater's avatar is also okay, leaning a little towards avatar bias (especially Burst's story arc), but the main story revolves around the other characters.

Back to Fire Emblem, I would avoid "avatar-sexuals" and making all relationships romantic. Give me the option to help a child soldier find her lost family. Let the avatar help ease the burden of a war veteran. Make the Avatar and the Main Lord be best friends instead of being romantically involved. Maybe the Avatar reconnects to his/her family. I know this will go against the recent trend of "Waifu Emblem" (why can't I marry "x!") but I want my Sacred Stones paired endings back!

Essentially, make the Avatar character important to the plot or not involved at all. If the Avatar is important, let the character make plot-changing decisions. If the Avatar is in the background, IS can keep the typical linear Fire Emblem story.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Good Lord I do not want another Avatar, but the Switch needs to sell, so I expect one and I expect a properly implemented second generation, since the most common opinion on Fates' second gen was that it was forced and shoved in.

You know how Pokèmon is pretty much always the same thing over and over? You don't fix what's not broken and FEs like Awakening are the highest selling ones, so of course a story important Avatar will be back.
I expect the game to be darker and more serious(but not too much) since the Switch wants a wider audience, and I expect to have romance and supports back. It will be Awakening 3.0 and it will fix Fates' problems like Fates did with Awakening. Maybe this time we will actually have story and route changing decisions more than once, like Tactics Ogre.
And Kozaki is already designing Heroes, I would not be surprised if he designed Switch Emblem too. I know a lot of people are rightfully bored by him by now, but remember the masses associate his style with Fire Emblem instead of No More Heroes like they should do!!111.

[AlexArtsHere]

You know, I'm starting to find many of the knee-jerk reactions to the mention of an Avatar kind of...worrying at this point. I don't want to be a jerk about this, because obviously everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but why? Why is the sentiment "I don't want an Avatar" rather than "I don't want an Avatar done poorly"? Is it because people don't trust IntSys to do it right or do people inherently hate the idea of a customisable character? I honestly fail to see what's inherently wrong with the Avatar as a concept. If people don't like self-inserts, then they can use their imaginations to come up with their own character who isn't a self-insert, or just use the default settings.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Some of us don't want the same mechanic to be reused for the fourth time in a row, kind of like children. It's a very unique and game changing mechanic, and having it so many times makes the older games that have an Avatar be less unique and makes Avatars themselves become more stale.
As for myself, I also have other reasons: the Avatar, being the player character, will always be shoehorned in the story in a way or another, or be almost irrelevant. I don't want to play a self insert game in Fire Emblem but follow the stories of set, well defined characters. Simple as that.

I do enjoy creating characters and I had many Avatars in Awakening (much less in Fates), but it loses a lot of charm after the first times (I created very few Avatars in Fates so far for example).

Edited January 19, 2017 by CrimeanRoyalKnight
Accidentally posted earlier than what I wanted

[Nym]

18 minutes ago, InfinityAlex said:

You know, I'm starting to find many of the knee-jerk reactions to the mention of an Avatar kind of...worrying at this point. I don't want to be a jerk about this, because obviously everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but why? Why is the sentiment "I don't want an Avatar" rather than "I don't want an Avatar done poorly"? Is it because people don't trust IntSys to do it right or do people inherently hate the idea of a customisable character? I honestly fail to see what's inherently wrong with the Avatar as a concept. If people don't like self-inserts, then they can use their imaginations to come up with their own character who isn't a self-insert, or just use the default settings.

Having an avatar is basically a double edge sword: if you do your homeworks correctly and make sure your avatar is interesting while he doesn't ruins the story at all, he or she will end up being a great avatar.

Kris was not interesting (in my opinion) but at least he didn't ruin the story while Robin was more interesting but destroyed the story at the end of the first arc.

But holy crap, Corrin is hands down, the biggest failure in the story of avatars (at least for FE avatars). Not interesting at all and ruins a already really bad story.

That's probably why people are so afraid right now, IntSys fucked up massively on this one.

 

Edited January 19, 2017 by Nym

[AlexArtsHere]

And I can definitely see that, but I really think the way people are expressing it is really irrational. The last thing I want to do is start a flame war over it, so I'll shut up about it now, but I really think a little faith in IntSys wouldn't go amiss. They've shown they learn from their mistakes and respond to fan reception, and, from my point of view, they seem to do so much quicker than other companies (looking at you, Sonic Team).

[Ambulz]

I think Fates was on the right track with the inclusion of the Avatar as the main character, but the execution was just so, so bad. So, if one must be included, I wouldn't mind them trying that route again, so long as they're well-written and the choices we make actually mean a damn thing. I actually like marriage. I think it's fine for the Avatar to support with everybody, but conversely, I want to bring back limited support pools for the other characters.

Children I'm on the fence about. I liked my kids, but not anyone else's. If it's something that needs to be sacrificed for the integrity of a good story, then so be it.

[Rezzy]

I like customizable characters, there's plenty of games where they let you make your own character.  Baldur's Gate is a shining example.

I think FE should let us design another Mark from FE7, but let us make him/her playable.  I think early builds of Fe7 actually had a playable avatar.  I think building a unit can be just fine, if done right, and doesn't require bending over backwards to justify, like children units.

[Radiant head]

2 hours ago, InfinityAlex said:

And I can definitely see that, but I really think the way people are expressing it is really irrational. The last thing I want to do is start a flame war over it, so I'll shut up about it now, but I really think a little faith in IntSys wouldn't go amiss. They've shown they learn from their mistakes and respond to fan reception, and, from my point of view, they seem to do so much quicker than other companies (looking at you, Sonic Team).

i think it's pretty bad faith to just assume there's something irrational about the other side tbh, especially since avatars didn't exist in the first 11 fire emblem games. 

Edited January 20, 2017 by Radiant head

[Party Moth]

7 hours ago, InfinityAlex said:

You know, I'm starting to find many of the knee-jerk reactions to the mention of an Avatar kind of...worrying at this point. I don't want to be a jerk about this, because obviously everyone's entitled to their own opinion, but why? Why is the sentiment "I don't want an Avatar" rather than "I don't want an Avatar done poorly"? Is it because people don't trust IntSys to do it right or do people inherently hate the idea of a customisable character? I honestly fail to see what's inherently wrong with the Avatar as a concept. If people don't like self-inserts, then they can use their imaginations to come up with their own character who isn't a self-insert, or just use the default settings.

It's not that Avatars are necessarily a symbol of evil or anything of the sort. For me personally, I have absolutely no interest in customizable characters and it's clear that a number of features that I despise in the current system (glorification of the player, trying to stretch out 50-70 supports with a single character, skinshipping and confession images) are tied to the Avatar character and the game's inability to decide if it's "you" that's in the game or "Kris/Robin/Corrin." It's not that I feel that IntSys can't be trusted to "do it right", but rather that "doing it right" is for me impossible due to my general disinterest in Avatars (but I also don't trust them to do it right). They could (in my eyes) maybe salvage it by pulling out a stellar system of choices that carry heavy, heavy consequences and potential route splits, but at the same time I'd rather those decisions be made under the name of a character with a set name, set design, and set personality tied to the world that they live in rather than someone I can decorate.

Edited January 20, 2017 by Party Moth

[LuxSpes]

I think the main problem with Corrin isn't that they were an Avatar in a lead role, but rather that they were just a poor Avatar, as other have stated. Despite being your supposed self-insert, you barely make any in-game decisions that affects the plot and their personality is incredibly bland (though Robin also suffered from this, at least they weren't the main character). Doesn't help that the entire world of the game panders to them. Corrin could do no wrong, with the game outright saying that them being helplessly naive and trusting was a good thing, people forgiving them way too quickly for horrible things they committed and several characters who's personality revolved around them. 

I think that if IS really want to keep using the Avatar, they need to design the game around the fact that the main character is an Avatar of the player. What I mean by this is that their personality, as well as what path they will follow in the story, is molded by your decisions as the player. It's going a bit extreme, but having different endings depending on your actions during the game would be pretty interesting. Otherwise avatars are just bland MCs that you get to customize in which case having no avatar at all would be better since then we have the potential to have a good story based around the growth of the main character.

Also the player pandering need to stop. I don't want the game saying I made a good choice and characters saying how great I am even though I decided to make a morally reprehensible decision. 

Even though I'd be surprised if IS actually went down that road, since it's quite a major change to implement, I think it has the most potential to happen in the Switch game since the added power should allow it to handle a game with more complexity. 

[B.Leu]

Incidently, it would be good to have a good plot. :p
But I think we can all say that if the Avatar have to return, it'll have to be done better writing wise. Mostly writing wise.
Give him more importance to the plot at the price of less dialogue, or the inverse, whatever, I don't care, I just want it to be done right.
What's the point of an customized character who's called an avatar but is not an actual avatar by the way ?

In any case, it's Fire Emblem, so I'll take it anyway, if I end up buying the Switch that is.