Fire Emblem Echoes (Direct Information)

[Harvey]

1 hour ago, Tamanoir said:

Having a bland personnality isn't the same as having no personality. It's not necessarily better or worse, but it's two different things.

Its not really any different honestly as they are both pretty much the same. Raven's attitude has no meaning of existence when he couldn't support with Hector of all and his supports are also not that impressive either. So with that character of his bland, its the same as a character with no personality but gameplay wise, he's just awesome as hell alongside his character design.

Heck, Fates allows you to capture units who you can't support with other units at all and yet some of them have far more interesting character designs that are far better than the main character designs for birthright alone(except maybe Saizo, Hana, Oboro and Subaki). On top of that, the captured units make decent fillers.

1 hour ago, Tamanoir said:

Thinking that all supports are due purely to the creative minds' own desires is as ridiculous as seeing them all as forced.

My issue with what you're saying is that you seems to consider the sole presesence of supports as inherently as bad thing.

I'll say this again, I don't mind supports infact, I love em if only because its one of the only ways to get to know of each character better and that there is a lot of character development. 

The big problem is that this is a remake of Gaiden which never had any support conversations.  If Nintendo wants to make FE the way that its suppose to be, then they should be fine just removing supports if they think its not worth it. I'm not saying I'll be upset that they end up having supports. I'm just trying to make an argument that the game can do without them and I think sometimes, imagination is the better option. You think Nintendo will flesh down Renault if a remake of FE7 is to happen?

 

[Extrasolar]

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

What about Camilla? As poor of a character she is, her character design is likable. So art comes to part of the character design as well.

Whoa, hold on there, buddy. Hold on there. I've seen more criticism of Camilla's design than anything, on these forums and everywhere else. I mean, when you're talking a woman with boobs about three times the size of her head, "armor" designed transparently to titillate people attracted to women, and a battle thong... I'm not sure you can get into "likable design" territory.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

Raven's personality is bland but I love that character to death and it only took the character design and his stats to compensate for his lack of character. If SD's visuals weren't that ugly and had amazing art as that of New Mystery of the Emblem instead, I seriously doubt that adding a support system to SD would have made SD a better game.

I highly disagree (bolded, not with Raven being bland because that's subjective of course). A design on its own does absolutely nothing for me. What gets me interested is character. Personality and development. You can give me the best, most gorgeously designed character in the world, but if they don't have a personality, I'll shrug, say "cool art," and move on to something that actually holds my interest.

I want developed fictional people, not eye candy. Eye candy is not enough for me and lots of people. If I want to look at art with no other strings attached, I'll go to a museum. When I want to get invested in a story and characters, I'll play a game with developed and interesting characters.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

I seriously doubt that adding a support system to SD would have made SD a better game.

"Better" game isn't exactly what I'm saying. SD isn't a bad game, of course. But I'm saying that had they had character development besides for Marth, many more people would have been interested in and enjoyed the game (speaking in the west, I have no idea the reaction of the east to the game).

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

The point that I was trying to make is that poor personalities

 

 doesn't necessarily make a character bad.

Badly written and shallow characters do tend to be bad. I'm sorry, but you saying that design alone can salvage a character... I really don't agree at all with that. There's nothing wrong with liking Camilla's personality and design, of course, but...just pure design saving a badly-written character? I highly disagree.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

The reason why those combos happened is because of them being bugs and someone thought that it was fun. If combos weren't added, the game would've still been fun just like the previous game and who knows really?

Street Fighter I was awful, though. It was hugely unpopular just because it was so boring to play without the combo system. SF2 was a huge, huge step up because of the new combo system.

My point is the system wasn't "supposed" to be there, but because everyone adored it and loved the game because of it, they kept it going in the next few games, which were just as popular and well-received. What if they'd taken it out in the successive games? I'd bet you money that Street Fighter would never have taken off the way that it did.

Now, am I saying that without supports FE wouldn't have its fanbase? No, of course not. But what I am saying is that supports were and are hugely well received and popular by the majority crowd, and thus putting them in as many games as possible (and making them as well-written as possible, of course) is a good decision on IS's part. Character is one of FE's main selling points and strengths. Especially in a strategy RPG where most of the competition uses generics.

I'm not trying to discount your opinion or say you're wrong, but with all due respect you seem to be in the minority in thinking that supports "shouldn't" be in the game or are a bad thing. I just have don't understand why you think character development and fleshing out the cast is a bad thing, especially when it's in a mechanic that attracts a lot of people to the game.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

Also, RD added supports but bombed harder than SD so what's your excuse to the former game? Lack of marketing? Yeah maybe...but I can tell that its more than just that.

Like people have said, RD had supports bombed because they were awful, generic and stripped down and didn't do their purpose: Developing characters. POR's supports were hugely well received and very well written, as are the majority of the GBA supports. It's not supports themselves, man. It's when they don't have them or when they just plain don't flesh them out when people get disappointed.

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

SD still doesn't need supports. All it needed was adding better visuals like how I mentioned and adding more backstory to each unit and that alone doesn't require having supports as you think it should.

How else would we get it, then? You can't put it in the main script. Where would this non-support backstory be, exactly?

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

 those gaiden chapters and the generic units that came along are what ruined the remake to some extent and again I haven't played the game but just observing some of the game's footage and the reviews alone is making me want to try out the original game instead of its remake if you ask me because unlike a lot of people I respect creativity.

Almost all of the units in Shadow Dragon and Shadow Dragon and the Blade and Light are generic. They have no development and personality, and are pretty interchangeable. So I'm not sure you can criticize the extra characters for that and not look at the rest of the characters...

And I fail to see how adding supports isn't respecting creativity? If anything, it's more creative coming up with backstories, traits, and character interactions! I'm confused as to what you mean by that...

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

If you have played the original, surely someone like yourself could have noticed a lot of the changes that the remake did. Its the first game to introduce reclassing units for one thing and it was also the first game in the series to have online gameplay. I won't go too much into this but again, majority of its problems lies in its graphics and the gaiden chapters.

Oh yeah, I know about all the mechanics and stuff. But I'm saying, in keeping the game nearly as straightforward and bare as the original, a lot of people just plain got bored of it, including myself. That's a bad business decision for IS in my opinion.

Edited March 30, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Harvey]

10 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I highly disagree (bolded, not with Raven being bland because that's subjective of course). A design on its own does absolutely nothing for me. What gets me interested is character. Personality and development. You can give me the best, most gorgeously designed character in the world, but if they don't have a personality, I'll shrug, say "cool art," and move on to something that actually holds my interest.

I want developed fictional people, not eye candy. Eye candy is not enough for me and lots of people. If I want to look at art with no other strings attached, I'll go to a museum. When I want to get invested in a story and characters, I'll play a game with developed and interesting characters.

Ok so what would you do if the character gameplay wise is ridiculous to adjust to or that its pointless to even train them and know of their supports and whatnot because said character gameplay wise is just poor enough that its pointless to train them? Does that mean you'll do what you can to grind the character just to get those supports which you can easily read off the internet and whatnot? Like what's the point of getting Bartre all the way to the end in FE7? Just to get Karla who is pathetic gameplay wise. I've yet to read their supports but if poor characters are going to get better supports than characters who are strong but can't get well written supports, then its all the more pointless to do all of that when you can just read them off online.

Again, I'm not bashing at support conversations because I agree that those supports are ONE of the ways to get fleshed out characters...but conversations between characters doesn't need to happen to get those character backstories as what you say. They can just add an optional gaiden chapter and have a specific unit be the main lord for that specific chapter alone to flesh out the character or they can do something like My castle so that the lord can simply chat with units to get their info and whatnot.

10 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Whoa, hold on there, buddy. Hold on there. I've seen more criticism of Camilla's design than anything, on these forums and everywhere else. I mean, when you're talking a woman with boobs about three times the size of her head, "armor" designed transparently to titillate people attracted to women, and a battle thong... I'm not sure you can get into "likable design" territory

If you ask me, almost every female in FE tends to have a good chunk of fanservice whatsoever and Camilla is no exception. So yeah, I guess character design is also subjective. But one of the reasons why I like her is because of her design.

11 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Street Fighter I was awful, though. It was hugely unpopular just because it was so boring to play without the combo system. SF2 was a huge, huge step up because of the new combo system

Street fighter was released during the time were fighting games were just beginning. If that game didn't do well, SF2 would have never happened but I don't want to go too off topic here.

11 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Now, am I saying that without supports FE wouldn't have its fanbase? No, of course not. But what I am saying is that supports were and are hugely well received and popular by the majority crowd, and thus putting them in as many games as possible (and making them as well-written as possible, of course) is a good decision on IS's part. Character is one of FE's main selling points and strengths. Especially in a strategy RPG where most of the competition uses generics.

Oh really? Then explain games like Final Fantasy Tactics where there are well developed characters that didn't require support conversations(based on what people think about the game because I personally found it overall boring except the class mechanic thing)?

Yes I do agree that most TRPG's tend to not have fleshed out characters but that doesn't mean the games are bad for that matter which is odd coming from me because I prefer FE over those other TRPGs.

If Echoes has characters that hardly have any backstories in them, how is fleshing out the character going to make them better as characters if people won't like them being fleshed out as that?

And let's talk about the ones who played Gaiden. Would they really be satisfied with the newly written dialogue given to each of the characters? Because that also comes to play here. 

And I'll say this again, I have no issues with supports coming at all. I only fear that the supports might hinder the game experience if not done. I'd rather they just leave it and let fanfiction do the rest just so that the Gaiden players can play the Gaiden remake the way it is while at the same time, the new players can play casual mode and learn to accept the game for what it was and what Echoes is suppose to be.

 

[Tamanoir]

6 hours ago, Harvey said:

Ok so what would you do if the character gameplay wise is ridiculous to adjust to or that its pointless to even train them and know of their supports and whatnot because said character gameplay wise is just poor enough that its pointless to train them? Does that mean you'll do what you can to grind the character just to get those supports which you can easily read off the internet and whatnot? Like what's the point of getting Bartre all the way to the end in FE7? Just to get Karla who is pathetic gameplay wise. I've yet to read their supports but if poor characters are going to get better supports than characters who are strong but can't get well written supports, then its all the more pointless to do all of that when you can just read them off online.

 

Oh really? Then explain games like Final Fantasy Tactics where there are well developed characters that didn't require support conversations(based on what people think about the game because I personally found it overall boring except the class mechanic thing)?

Yes I do agree that most TRPG's tend to not have fleshed out characters but that doesn't mean the games are bad for that matter which is odd coming from me because I prefer FE over those other TRPGs.

This character actually exists. He's called Renault. He comes near the end of the game, with pathetic Mag stat, and you get Athos immediately afterwards. But he's actually one of the most interresting character in the game. And Karla gives you one of the few actually interresting Bartre support (one when he isn't a total braindead idiot), so it's at least worth it for this. If you don't want to take this efforts, free to you, but it can be a good reason to take them in your team (not to mention replayability. Blazing Sword is the game I played through the most because I wanted to complete the Support Library (it's at 97%, mainly because of Wallace, but the points stay.)

You see it as useless, I see it as a reward for those who loves character and world building, like me.

 

FFT can get away, because they only have to developp 5 characters at best. Including the villains, it's still less than ten. 90% of your team is composed of generics. 

Pesonnally, I'm OK with true generics,, like in those games, because you can chose who you want to use in your team, and design them to your liking (name, even personnality for Disgea games). They are really your units. In FE, they are supposed to each be a true individual, with his own motive. By not fleshing them out, they become inferiors to true generics (like in... most other Tactics RPGs) IMO.

[Harvey]

4 hours ago, Tamanoir said:

FFT can get away, because they only have to developp 5 characters at best. Including the villains, it's still less than ten. 90% of your team is composed of generics. 

You know...I really find this here odd for others reasons....

I remember discussing an old thread where people here praised Final Fantasy Tactics like it was a game better than FE and revolutionized TRPGs better than FE when FE is technically the one that started it(debatable yes but FE regardless had some impact).

Now Tactics gets an excuse for not fleshing out characters because of what logic idk. 

4 hours ago, Tamanoir said:

This character actually exists. He's called Renault. He comes near the end of the game, with pathetic Mag stat, and you get Athos immediately afterwards. But he's actually one of the most interresting character in the game. And Karla gives you one of the few actually interresting Bartre support (one when he isn't a total braindead idiot), so it's at least worth it for this. If you don't want to take this efforts, free to you, but it can be a good reason to take them in your team (not to mention replayability. Blazing Sword is the game I played through the most because I wanted to complete the Support Library (it's at 97%, mainly because of Wallace, but the points stay.)

You see it as useless, I see it as a reward for those who loves character and world bu

All of that effort means nothing when you can just read the dialogues from the internet...Either pick Wallace supports or get Geitz, who'd you prefer?

Also I'm just curious. Since Gaiden is your favorite FE game, would you be disappointed if the conversations were underwhelming in the end? Because again, Gaiden didn't have them but expecting that from a remake and if it doesn't deliver?

Let's not forget that seeing how infamous NoA"s censoring also applies here, most of the conversations would also be barebones or ripped out in the NA version just like Fates.

You know...I'm a bit upset that the treehouse isn't localizing the game and its sad that people bash at the treehouse due to Fates ending up for what it is..I feel sorry for them.

 

On that note...here's the limited edition of Echoes Box art..Japan only though!

[Tamanoir]

18 minutes ago, Harvey said:

All of that effort means nothing when you can just read the dialogues from the internet...Either pick Wallace supports or get Geitz, who'd you prefer?

Also I'm just curious. Since Gaiden is your favorite FE game, would you be disappointed if the conversations were underwhelming in the end? Because again, Gaiden didn't have them but expecting that from a remake and if it doesn't deliver?

Let's not forget that seeing how infamous NoA"s censoring also applies here, most of the conversations would also be barebones or ripped out in the NA version just like Fates.

You know...I'm a bit upset that the treehouse isn't localizing the game and its sad that people bash at the treehouse due to Fates ending up for what it is..I feel sorry for them

That's a somewhat strange argument to make, since it's thanks to the ones who doesn't mind using a bad characters we have access to them in the first place. (and I don't know if I can find them on my native language anyway.) Ayway I played Blazing Sword far too many time, so I don't feel touching it again.

I'm a fan of character based stories in general, and I nearly prefer to work hard for story content than for a shiny unit/Item.

As for Gaiden I like it for two reasons :

1. The simple yet addictive gameplay. Missing all the time is annoying, but it stays a really fun game to play through
2. Its potential. There's a great story hidden on the barebone plot. Just the way the game shows Alm and Cellica's relation through gameplay alone is really great.

I have big chances of being disappointed, no doubt about that. I have expectations too big to be fulfilled entirely. The cast is barebone enough to develop them as they wish (though the new looks are amazing, and them being underused would be a real waste). My main deception would be if some ends up underdevelopped, or one note (like in Awakening.) Some characters will be less interresting than others, but  if they make me want to use a character just because of its personality, they would have succeed at ther jobs. I'm fully ready to love SoV, so I will certainly ends up loving it.

[Thunderstar]

On 28/03/2017 at 10:40 PM, bufkus said:

8-4 is John Ricciardi's firm, isn't it? I know Rich Amtower has helped them out in the past, and he's also been involved in every Fire Emblem localization to date. 8-4 is pretty solid.

 

Yeah, John Ricciardi founded 8-4 with Minamoto and I think that he is currently 8-4's COO.

[Extrasolar]

17 hours ago, Harvey said:

If Echoes has characters that hardly have any backstories in them, how is fleshing out the character going to make them better as characters if people won't like them being fleshed out as that?

...I honestly can't picture many people saying "Oh, screw this game, it has developed characters! I'm out of here! NO DEAL, NINTENDO!" Like...what. I'm sorry, but that's exactly the opposite of what most people want.

People enjoy RPGs like the Final Fantasy games past the first few (who have their fans, don't get me wrong, but FF1's popularity pales in comparison to Final Fantasy VII's, for instance) because of the deep, well-written and developed characters. I mean, one of the main selling points of the RPG genre as a whole are the deep stories and characters, for crying out loud!

17 hours ago, Harvey said:

And I'll say this again, I have no issues with supports coming at all. I only fear that the supports might hinder the game experience if not done. I'd rather they just leave it and let fanfiction do the rest just so that the Gaiden players can play the Gaiden remake the way it is while at the same time, the new players can play casual mode and learn to accept the game for what it was and what Echoes is suppose to be.

 

Because this remake isn't just for Gaiden fans, or people who want to play "the game the way it is." Echoes is not Gaiden. It's a remake of Gaiden, with all of the new features and changes that entails. It's "what would this game be like if it was made in the modern day." I honestly don't think you have the right to say what Echoes is "supposed to be." That sounds entitled and elitist, if you don't mind me saying. Echoes is what they want it to be. I mean, they're the company that made the original game in the first place! I think they know what they want Echoes to be.

IS can't spend their entire waking effort catering to the purists who are so purist that they'll immediately reject something like support conversations being added to flesh out the characters, because that's a minority. If people get their underwear in a tizzy over things like that, they can emulate the original Gaiden and play it to their heart's content without any of that horrible, awful character development getting in the way (sarcasm).

17 hours ago, Harvey said:

Ok so what would you do if the character gameplay wise is ridiculous to adjust to or that its pointless to even train them and know of their supports and whatnot because said character gameplay wise is just poor enough that its pointless to train them? Does that mean you'll do what you can to grind the character just to get those supports which you can easily read off the internet and whatnot? Like what's the point of getting Bartre all the way to the end in FE7? Just to get Karla who is pathetic gameplay wise. I've yet to read their supports but if poor characters are going to get better supports than characters who are strong but can't get well written supports, then its all the more pointless to do all of that when you can just read them off online.

I'll admit that GBA style supports (I read that this is what Echoes supports are going to be) can be a pain to unlock...having two units stand next to each other for ages and ages on end to unlock the support, and that's been a problem in every FE game. There are plenty of subpar or unusable characters with interesting supports (I like Nyx's supports in Fates, for example, but I never bother trying to train her).

And just because you can read them online doesn't make them pointless. That's like saying playing a video game to the end is pointless because you can just look up a video of the ending online. First, that's 100% optional, and it's just for convenience's sake anyway.

17 hours ago, Harvey said:

They can just add an optional gaiden chapter and have a specific unit be the main lord for that specific chapter alone to flesh out the character or they can do something like My castle so that the lord can simply chat with units to get their info and whatnot.

Do you want them to have to add an optional Gaiden chapter for everyone in the game, just to get character development? Because that would pad the game out to ridiculous lengths. And My Castle chats are brief. A few lines at the most. Not exactly a lot of development there...

17 hours ago, Harvey said:

If you ask me, almost every female in FE tends to have a good chunk of fanservice whatsoever and Camilla is no exception. So yeah, I guess character design is also subjective. But one of the reasons why I like her is because of her design.

There's a difference between "wearing a miniskirt but fully covered otherwise" and "has her boobs hanging out and wears a thong...despite being in battle on a wyvern." There's also a huge difference between "not wearing leg armor" and "wearing a literal bikini on a battlefield." Just saying. Fanservice in earlier instances was much, much more downplayed, to the point that it barely even counted as fanservice at all.

Edited March 31, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Harvey]

5 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Because this remake isn't just for Gaiden fans, or people who want to play "the game the way it is." Echoes is not Gaiden. It's a remake of Gaiden, with all of the new features and changes that entails. It's "what would this game be like if it was made in the modern day." I honestly don't think you have the right to say what Echoes is "supposed to be." That sounds entitled and elitist, if you don't mind me saying. Echoes is what they want it to be. I mean, they're the company that made the original game in the first place! I think they know what they want Echoes to be.

IS can't spend their entire waking effort catering to the purists who are so purist that they'll immediately reject something like support conversations being added to flesh out the characters, because that's a minority. If people get their underwear in a tizzy over things like that, they can emulate the original Gaiden and play it to their heart's content without any of that horrible, awful character development getting in the way (sarcasm).

You say that they know what they want Echoes to be and yet Shadow Dragon for some reason is exactly on that level and yet people bashed that game.

You say that IS can't spend their efforts to those who will reject the game if their supports right? Well what if IS can't spend their efforts on those purists who won't buy anymore FE games if there's too much of fanservice in FE to the point that its more on boobs and less of actual tactics? Even better, what if they can't spend time on those who want more on the gameplay side of things more than those that want supports? It could mean less of gameplay and more supports for that matter. That can happen right and while Echoes thankfully isn't part of that problem, the way people bash at Fates for it though is making it a problem.

5 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Do you want them to have to add an optional Gaiden chapter for everyone in the game, just to get character development? Because that would pad the game out to ridiculous lengths. And My Castle chats are brief. A few lines at the most. Not exactly a lot of development there...

Didn't you just say that the reward for getting these supports are fulfilling enough not matter how much effort has to be made? Or atleast someone else here mentioned it?

If you want supports back and if this is the way they would have done it, then its justified because like many things, effort needs to be done. Maybe they can make the support level go faster if it gets tedious.

And aren't supports in general a time consuming thing?

5 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

There's a difference between "wearing a miniskirt but fully covered otherwise" and "has her boobs hanging out and wears a thong...despite being in battle on a wyvern." There's also a huge difference between "not wearing leg armor" and "wearing a literal bikini on a battlefield." Just saying. Fanservice in earlier instances was much, much more downplayed, to the point that it barely even counted as fanservice at all.

I disagree. Fanservice even when looking at FE4 also had a lot of them( Just look at Brigid and Ayra) Then there's the GBA ones which had a huge chunk of fanservice especially Lyn.

But I digress on this point.

 

[Extrasolar]

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

You say that they know what they want Echoes to be and yet Shadow Dragon for some reason is exactly on that level and yet people bashed that game.

What? I literally have no idea what you mean by that sentence. Lots of people criticized Shadow Dragon for its lack of character development and supports, which is what Echoes seems to be rectifying. People criticized it for not modernizing/updating enough for our modern sensibilities, which is what Echoes seems to be changing in a lot of ways.

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

You say that IS can't spend their efforts to those who will reject the game if their supports right? Well what if IS can't spend their efforts on those purists who won't buy anymore FE games if there's too much of fanservice in FE to the point that its more on boobs and less of actual tactics? Even better, what if they can't spend time on those who want more on the gameplay side of things more than those that want supports? It could mean less of gameplay and more supports for that matter. That can happen right and while Echoes thankfully isn't part of that problem, the way people bash at Fates for it though is making it a problem.

You're talking around my point now. We're talking about supports, not fanservice. Facts are, more people like supports than don't, and more people are likely to buy the game if they include supports than people that'll reject the game if they do include them. And no, they don't have to sacrifice gameplay for supports. Supports are an added bonus that don't distract from the gameplay. If you want to ignore them completely, you can ignore them completely.

Literally every FE game with supports has worked that way.

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

If you want supports back and if this is the way they would have done it, then its justified because like many things, effort needs to be done. Maybe they can make the support level go faster if it gets tedious.

What? No. You seem to be saying we need a full Gaiden chapter with character development (which wouldn't be much, considering how brief the scripts of chapters are) instead of supports. I pointed out that's a ridiculous notion, would pad the game out to the point of tedium, and not even give a lot of character development in the first place. Supports are, fact to business, the best way to do character development. And if you don't like them, you can ignore them. Easy. Simple.

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

Didn't you just say that the reward for getting these supports are fulfilling enough not matter how much effort has to be made? Or atleast someone else here mentioned it?

No, I didn't. You're thinking of a different person.
 

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

I disagree. Fanservice even when looking at FE4 also had a lot of them( Just look at Brigid and Ayra) Then there's the GBA ones which had a huge chunk of fanservice especially Lyn.

But I digress on this point.

 

You don't seem to understand the term "false equivalence." False equivalence is when two things on a grossly different scale are compared as equal. Camilla and Charlotte's designs are far, far worse in the fanservice regard than other FE designs. You honestly can't tell me with a straight face and not be lying that, say, Ayra's long dress (completely covered chest and torso!) with leg slits is as bad as Camilla's boobs hanging out and a clearly visible thong, not to mention a literal bikini on Charlotte's part. Because it's clearly not. That's false equivalence.

But that's enough of that. Don't want to derail the thread.

[Harvey]

 

5 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

What? I literally have no idea what you mean by that sentence. Lots of people criticized Shadow Dragon for its lack of character development and supports, which is what Echoes seems to be rectifying. People criticized it for not modernizing/updating enough for our modern sensibilities, which is what Echoes seems to be changing in a lot of ways.

 

But that's what the devs originally wanted Shadow Dragon to be...to be as authentic as possible like the original....and I also don't understand the support conversation argument..are you asking for talking dialogues between units? Because Shadow Dragon DOES have that. What Shadow Dragon doesn't have is bonuses between characters.

If you're asking about those small talk dialogues between characters, then yeah, I can put with that as it just means a little icing to the flavor. I'm looking at the bonus point of view which shouldn't be there but I'm guessing it will be there because the difficulty of the game will now hinder because of that bonuses that you get.

Bonuses are somethings that are NEEDED for some characters and gameplay wise, its needed especially for the first two GBA games( well maybe Blazing Blade doesn't need those bonuses but still...) Because lots of those characters need those bonuses to do better. Because of this, supports can't be skipped and I can't recall supports being optional except in Awakening and Fates..and maybe just FE4 and FE7.

 

 

[ChibiToastExplosion]

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

What Shadow Dragon doesn't have is bonuses between characters.

Bonuses are somethings that are NEEDED

Lies. SD does in fact have support bonuses, that build up as characters fight in the same chapter together. This is in fact praise able, because there was no tile limit between characters to build supports, just to receive them. Thus the real tangible game play benefit was there, people just couldn't live without fluff that they would haved complained was poorly written anway.

Also the second point is.... Lies. I did a run in SD on H5 with nothing but replacements... think I had supports there, on the hardest difficulty? No.

Supports are fun, and they are nice. But needed they are not. People are way way over blowing this issue, on both sides. I understand that we are are passionate about the games we love, but go outside and play one of 'em or somethin'.

Edited April 1, 2017 by ChibiToastExplosion

[Harvey]

6 hours ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Lies. SD does in fact have support bonuses, that build up as characters fight in the same chapter together. This is in fact praise able, because there was no tile limit between characters to build supports, just to receive them. Thus the real tangible game play benefit was there, people just couldn't live without fluff that they would haved complained was poorly written anway.

Also the second point is.... Lies. I did a run in SD on H5 with nothing but replacements... think I had supports there, on the hardest difficulty? No.

Supports are fun, and they are nice. But needed they are not. People are way way over blowing this issue, on both sides. I understand that we are are passionate about the games we love, but go outside and play one of 'em or somethin'.

 

Wait...so it was all lies that there are indeed supports in that game? But then why are people lying about them not being there?

 

[BlizzardWolf95]

3 minutes ago, Harvey said:

Wait...so it was all lies that there are indeed supports in that game? But then why are people lying about them not being there?

https://serenesforest.net/shadow-dragon/characters/support-bonus/

[Azz]

15 minutes ago, Harvey said:

 

Wait...so it was all lies that there are indeed supports in that game? But then why are people lying about them not being there?

 

People don't lie about them not being there, they probably just don't know they exist. I mean there is literally no explanation for them in game or any notice of them with the exception that a character might do more damage or hit better randomly by standing near a character.

[Captain Karnage]

2 hours ago, Harvey said:

 

Wait...so it was all lies that there are indeed supports in that game? But then why are people lying about them not being there?

 

well not conversations,

people just assumed they were never there

[Extrasolar]

On 4/1/2017 at 4:13 AM, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Thus the real tangible game play benefit was there, people just couldn't live without fluff that they would haved complained was poorly written anway.

I disagree with calling character development and depth "fluff," because that implies that character development is wholly superficial, and I couldn't disagree more with that statement.

I've been typing this sentence time after time lately, but one of FE's strengths is its great characters. And sure, you always have people that'll think anything is poorly written, no matter what it is. But that doesn't mean they should be done away with or left out completely. They're hugely popular and generate interest in character. For people who don't like having to write fanon for every single character they come across in a work (and the vast majority of people I've talked to are like that), support conversations are wonderful.

On 4/1/2017 at 4:13 AM, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Supports are fun, and they are nice. But needed they are not.

It's not a matter of them being "needed," it's a matter of them being a good business decision to add, since most people like character development. Can an FE game exist and work without them? Sure, they have in the past. But support conversations add a great layer of depth and interest. And if you don't like them, you can just ignore them completely. There's no reason not to include them.

[Harvey]

So a quick question here....

 

Is this song actually going to come from this game for real?!?!?

 

[Pikappa93]

4 hours ago, Harvey said:

Is this song actually going to come from this game for real?!?!?

It's played when Roy amiibo attacks. It's awesome actually.

[Harvey]

1 hour ago, Pikappa93 said:

It's played when Roy amiibo attacks. It's awesome actually.

Speaking of which...just curious, what happens to Roy's amiibo now that Gamestop is no longer around?

 

[Konnor97]

10 hours ago, Harvey said:

Speaking of which...just curious, what happens to Roy's amiibo now that Gamestop is no longer around?

 

Gamestop is still around.

[Harvey]

While not neccessarily related to topic, I feel sad that people are praising the absence of the Nintendo treehouse localizing this game infavor of 8-4.

Even if Treehouse isn't involved, NoA will still find stuff to censor things here and there. So I find the treehouse bashing quite cruel tbh.

 

[Meanlucario]

I know this  is a spoiler I'm asking, but did they fix the maps in the game, or are they still bad?

[Azz]

4 minutes ago, Meanlucario said:

I know this  is a spoiler I'm asking, but did they fix the maps in the game, or are they still bad?

They're the same.

[Meanlucario]

Rats. The one thing that all  the fans of the original were expecting to be improved...