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2 minutes ago, komasa said:

 for uuh... non-specific reasons. 

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I remember you being one of the people looking forward to Camus the most heh

You promote him yet!?

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1 minute ago, Arcanite said:

( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

I remember you being one of the people looking forward to Camus the most heh

You promote him yet!?

Soon *-*!!! It's top priority!!!!! I need to wait til the end of the arena season for more feathers ._. ... Been busy SP farming, and skill setting him. Got Fury and Bonfire going. Still trying to decide on B + C. 

But maaan, I love the art, his stats are beautiful, and the voice is great!! Not many characters can hit all three for me x'D;; It just makes me feel so happy :'DD

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+HP, -Spd seems pretty bad for Cecilia, but is it usable with (double) Goad Cavalry support? My cavalry team could use a green, and she could fill that role nicely if I upgrade her. I can't give her a different weapon (not interested in putting 20k feathers into skill fodder), but I have skills like Triangle Adept 3 and Ward Cavalry on hand and available to pass to her.

Edited by Othin
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5 hours ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

What?

I don't follow your logic at all.

A 4* +10 is worth the same in stats as a 5* +5. Even if you take into account the extra 20k feathers from inheriting a 5* only skill, that's a net cost of 40k (20k for +10 merge then another 20k to inherit the skill) compared to a 5* +5 which has a net cost of 120k (upgrading to 5* 6 times). 

A 4* +10 is far cheaper than a 5* +5 even when you take into account the increased cost of inheriting a 5* only skill. What part of this is inconsistent?

If it's too expensive to use feathers for merging (or promotion), then it's too expensive to give a 5* skill to a 4*.

 

L&D gives around 1 merge of stats for 20k feathers (since it's 5* only and gives +1/+1 spd/atk---we're ignoring the drop to defenses for now.)

A 5* merge costs 20k feathers for 1 merge of stats.

These two things have equivalent costs. If one is too expensive, so is the other. You're confusing total cost with marginal cost. Just because 4* +10 and 1 5* skill is cheaper than 5* +4 doesn't mean the cost of L&D decreased. (It's 20k feathers whether your unit costed 2000k feathers outside that skill or 0k feathers. To put it another way, just because you saved 50 dollars on car insurance doesn't mean that $200 steak you bought got any cheaper.)

Also, 4* +5.5 is equivalent to 5* +0 for Hana. (She gets 2 of everything except res from going from 4* to 5*, which she gets 3. 11/2 = 5.5).

 

 

A 4* +10 costs: 11 4* Hanas.

Results: +2 hp/atk/spd/def over 5* +0 Hana, +1 res.

A 5* Hana costs: 20k feathers, 1 4* Hana.

Results:

Armorslayer+ and L&D 3 over 4*+10 Hana. A weapon upgrade is worth 4 atk, or 2 merges in terms of absolute stats. Let's simplify and assume L&D is worth 1 merge (it doesn't add stats, but it does min-max better than stat adding skills).

9 stats is worth 4.5 merges, so a 5* Hana, in exchange for costing 10 less Hanas (we're valuing 4* Hana as 1 Hana and 2k feathers), is about 1.5 merges weaker than 4* +10 Hana.

This is in terms of absolute stats, in terms of wins the 5* Hana is actually stronger because it's more min-maxed. It has only 1 less spd (due to L&D 3 over 2), and it actually has 3 more attack (due to Armorslayer+).

 

+Atk Hana, 4*, +10 Merge, Armorslayer, L&D 2: 86 wins, 9 losses.

+Atk Hana, 5*, Armorslayer+, L&D 3: 90 wins, 12 losses.

 

Current situation:

5* Hana 10 Hana cheaper, 4 more wins.

Let's add L&D 3 to 4* +10, and a merge to 5* Hana:

4* Hana: 92 wins.

5* Hana: 95 wins.

Now, instead of leveling L&D, let's instead give brave sword+ to 4*, and a merge to 5*. (That is, it's 4* +10, Brave Sword+, L&D 2 Hana vs. 5* +1, L&D 3, Armorslayer+ Hana.) :

4* Hana: 110 wins.

5* Hana: 95 wins. (same because the 5* didn't change).

It's kind of obvious how utterly not worth it L&D 3 is in comparison to nabbing an actually decent 5* weapon. For 20k feathers for L&D 3 you gain 6 more wins, sure, but for a merge the 5* Hana gets 5 more wins. A Brave-Sword+, on the other hand, gives a ridiculous 24 wins.

 

That said, the picture isn't as rosy as all that:

5* Hana, 0 merges, L&D 3, Brave Sword+: 107 wins.

vs.

4* Hana, 10 merges, L&D 2, Brave Sword+: 110 wins.

For 10 more Hanas, and equal feather cost (assuming each 4* Hana costs a Hana and 2k feathers), you got... a whopping 3 wins.

 

Let's give 4* Hana L&D 3 now, and the 5* Hana a merge, the feather cost is the same:

5* Hana, 1 merge, L&D 3, Brave Sword+:

109 wins.

4* Hana, 10 merges, L&D 3, Brave Sword+:

114 wins.

Sort of okay now, in the sense that the marginal improvement over a 5* merge is now 2 wins. (Since 5* only got 2 wins, whereas 4* got 4 from going from L&D 2 to 3).

 

Let's give both Hana Luna:

5* Hana, 1 merge, L&D 3, Brave Sword+:

115 wins.

4* Hana, 10 merges, L&D 3, Brave Sword+:

119 wins.

4* Hana still ahead, but now we're seeing diminishing returns kick in: Hana is such a good damage dealer that the last couple wins are more or less impossible to get, meaning the weaker Hana will now start catch up despite gaining the same improvements. (5* Hana got 6 extra wins from Luna, 4* Hana got 5. Note that Luna is a 4* skill (about 10x cheaper than a 5* skill), and the improvement is about double what L&D 3 gives---there's basically no reason to get L&D 3 if you're on a budget.)

 

Now for the real question: At what point does 5* Hana manage to catch up to 4* Hana?

Answer: 4 Merges.

5* Hana, 4 merges, L&D 3, Brave Sword+, Luna:

119 wins · 11 losses · 4 draws

4* Hana, 10 merges, L&D 3, Brave Sword+, Luna:

119 wins · 11 losses · 4 draws

(As expected, because 5* Hana gains 5.5 merges of stats from promotion, meaning 4 more merges will push her up to a 4* +9.5 level.)

Additional cost over 4* Hana: 60k feathers. (This is because 4* Hana took an extra 20k, a merge's worth, to get L&D 3).

 

Total cost of 4* +10 Hana: 11 Hana, 20k feathers for L&D 3, 20k feathers (approximate) for Brave Sword+, 18k feathers for +10 merge. (Why 18k? Well, you save 2k by merging a 5* Hana into a 4* to give the 4* L&D 3, since she gets L&D 3 and a merge level at once---also, doesn't something about this being the most efficient way to get L&D 3 onto a 4* Hana trigger any alarm bells?).

 

In other words: By spending 11 Hana now (10 of them forever), and 58k feathers now (20k of them forever), you managed to save 60k feathers for the moment. (You can't get back the 4* Hanas to promote them and merge, and, after promotion, you no longer get L&D 3 as a promotion bonus, because you already spent a 5* to inherit it).

This is very well worth it, of course, because a Hana isn't usually worth 6k feathers each. (If they are, then you fucked up, and fucked up badly.) On the other hand, if you ever intend to use Hana past the point where your other stuff reach 5* +4, then you just dumped a whole merge level of feathers down the drain from inheriting L&D 3. (Serious, I can see 4*+10, I can't see L&D 3 inheritance, because it's such a crappy choice.)

 

Also: You know what else saves 60k feathers for the moment? Leaving Hana at 5*, with her basic weapon, with just Luna, Desperation, and Ardent Sacrifice. She has 101 wins at 27 hp (one ardent sacrifice), and the build costs less than 30k. Which is actually 28k less than this 4* +10 'budget' build.

Edit: My fucking +1 merged, L&D 3 5* Cordelia costs about the same as this 'budget' build.

Edited by DehNutCase
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12 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Buddy calm down

The wall of text makes it look impressive, but what it really boils down to is this:

4* +10 is cheaper and more worth it short and medium term while working towards a high merge level on a 5* is better long term.

However, I don't think most F2P players expect to work up to a 5* +10 (or even, say, +6) unit anyways, and for those players, a 4* +10 is more than adequately serviceable. If you're willing to put in the time, effort, and dedication to work a unit up to 5* +5 or higher, then yes, going for a 4* +10 is an eventual waste of resources. But for everyone else? I fail to see the problem. 

No one has any illusions that a 4* +10 unit is going to be better than a 5* +10 unit. That's not the point. For the most part, people who go for 4* +10s are the ones that don't intend to get a 5* +10 (or even a +5, which is where it breaks even) in the first place, in which case merging multiple 4* units is a much better solution for the foreseeable future. 

Also, way to go with one of the most expensive builds in an attempt to prove your point. Many units aren't going to need to inherit a 5* weapon and a 5* exclusive skill on top of that. With the exception of Life and Death specifically, most of the commonly inherited A skills, like Fury, Death Blow, and Triangle Adept, are all available from 4* units, which would bring the cost down by an additional 18-20k feathers. 

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10 minutes ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

The wall of text makes it look impressive, but what it really boils down to is this:

4* +10 is cheaper and more worth it short and medium term while working towards a high merge level on a 5* is better long term.

However, I don't think most F2P players expect to work up to a 5* +10 (or even, say, +6) unit anyways, and for those players, a 4* +10 is more than adequately serviceable. If you're willing to put in the time, effort, and dedication to work a unit up to 5* +5 or higher, then yes, going for a 4* +10 is an eventual waste of resources. But for everyone else? I fail to see the problem. 

No one has any illusions that a 4* +10 unit is going to be better than a 5* +10 unit. That's not the point. For the most part, people who go for 4* +10s are the ones that don't intend to get a 5* +10 (or even a +5, which is where it breaks even) in the first place, in which case merging multiple 4* units is a much better solution for the foreseeable future. 

Also, way to go with one of the most expensive builds in an attempt to prove your point. Many units aren't going to need to inherit a 5* weapon and a 5* exclusive skill on top of that. With the exception of Life and Death specifically, most of the commonly inherited A skills, like Fury, Death Blow, and Triangle Adept, are all available from 4* units, which would bring the cost down by an additional 18-20k feathers. 

A 5* +0 is cheaper than a 4* +10.

Edit: And we were specifically discussing someone with L&D 3 on 4* Hana.

Double Edit:

6 hours ago, DehNutCase said:

No, I mean:

 

The reason you 4* +10 is because +1 a 5* costs 20k feathers, which is too expensive.

A L&D rank costs 20k feathers, for less or similar return to a merge.

 

If you would 4* +10 rather than make 5* merges, then it's internally inconsistent to inherit 5* only skills.

5 hours ago, MaskedAmpharos said:

What?

I don't follow your logic at all.

A 4* +10 is worth the same in stats as a 5* +5. Even if you take into account the extra 20k feathers from inheriting a 5* only skill, that's a net cost of 40k (20k for +10 merge then another 20k to inherit the skill) compared to a 5* +5 which has a net cost of 120k (upgrading to 5* 6 times). 

A 4* +10 is far cheaper than a 5* +5 even when you take into account the increased cost of inheriting a 5* only skill. What part of this is inconsistent?

You were the one that argued for this expensive ass build, not me. (Note that, if I didn't give Hana Brave Sword, the 4* would be worse than the 5* despite being more expensive.)

This was one of the points covered in my wall of text.

Edited by DehNutCase
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1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

A 5* +0 is cheaper than a 4* +10.

It sure is. 

A 5* +0 is also worse than a 4* +10 in terms of stats and Arena scoring. 

EDIT: Alright, that's fair. That also doesn't change the fact that a 4* +10 is cheaper than a 5* +4

Edited by MaskedAmpharos
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I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be any info on this month's Voting Gauntlet. That usually shows up in the datamine from the update that adds the early-in-month banner, right? Perhaps it'll be added in the upcoming update, or is being delayed/replaced by whatever is in that update (presumably Vortex Mode).

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47 minutes ago, Othin said:

I'm surprised there doesn't seem to be any info on this month's Voting Gauntlet. That usually shows up in the datamine from the update that adds the early-in-month banner, right? Perhaps it'll be added in the upcoming update, or is being delayed/replaced by whatever is in that update (presumably Vortex Mode).

I thought so too... especially since I plan for my next promotion to be for one of my mages.

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Kind of wished you could delete unwanted inherited skills. They're just there... unlearned and unneeded.

Part of me feels like maybe the CYL thing might be too big and busy, so they might skip the gauntlet. Or, it is the gauntlet which would make sense too.

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7 minutes ago, Kaden said:

Kind of wished you could delete unwanted inherited skills. They're just there... unlearned and unneeded.

Part of me feels like maybe the CYL thing might be too big and busy, so they might skip the gauntlet. Or, it is the gauntlet which would make sense too.

I agree, we could get some SP for burning them

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Just now, MrSmokestack said:

Nothing in particular. I'm pretty sure my Camus will be ready for arena by then though.

There might be Vortex too!

I hope he can help with the horse emblem mission. He should be good for the arena bonus when it's his turn too. I'm already doing really well this round.

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I feel like a damn fool. A damn FOOL.

For so long I have thought "Man, she can't be THAT good..."

Nino is a beast. A madwoman. A Killer. A pretty cool character.

I HAVE BEEN SO BLIND TO THE WORLD.

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21 minutes ago, KongDude said:

Seems easily abusable to me. But then SP is super hard to get after 5*s reach 40.

You'd be wasting skills and units. I also doubt that they would give you the full cost of the skill, especially since you never learned it for a unit. At best, I could see them giving you a tenth of the original SP cost. Now, if you learned Savage Blow 3 for er... Odin and feel like it's not working, then yeah, you should at least get the normal SP cost if you could get rid of them.

I just want to get rid of unlearned skills I inherited on some units for some reason. Oboro has Defiant Atk 1 and adult Tiki has Drag Back. Defiant Atk could work, but I don't really want it and Tiki's running Quick Riposte with Lightning Breath. So, they're just sitting there cluttering up the skill list. It's not a really big deal, but it just annoys me.

Edited by Kaden
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1 minute ago, Kaden said:

You'd be wasting skills and units. I also doubt that they would give you the full cost of the skill, especially since you never learned it for a unit. At best, I could see them giving you a tenth of the original SP cost. Now, if you learned Savage Blow 3 for er... Odin and feel like it's not working, then yeah, you should at least get the normal SP cost if you could get rid of them.

I just want to get rid of unlearned skills I inherited on some units for some reason. Oboro has Defiant Atk 1 and adult Tiki has Drag Back. Defiant Atk could work, but I don't really want it and Tiki's running Quick Riposte with Lightning Breath. So, they're just sitting there cluttering up the skill list. It's not a really big deal, but it just annoys me.

I agree, I decided to start a new account just because of that, my anna had vantage 2 but after SI i decided to give her desperation so it became a mess lol 

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6 hours ago, komasa said:

It feels so good to finally have Camus. I hope we get Sirius and Zeke some time in the future, for uuh... non-specific reasons. 

Too bad he only had three personae in the games. Speedo Camus for the fourth?

1 hour ago, Kaden said:

Kind of wished you could delete unwanted inherited skills. They're just there... unlearned and unneeded.

Part of me feels like maybe the CYL thing might be too big and busy, so they might skip the gauntlet. Or, it is the gauntlet which would make sense too.

Relevant (warning: VERY long image, like, 12kpx long; source)

Edited by Vaximillian
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56 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I feel like a damn fool. A damn FOOL.

For so long I have thought "Man, she can't be THAT good..."

Nino is a beast. A madwoman. A Killer. A pretty cool character.

I HAVE BEEN SO BLIND TO THE WORLD.

5 star Nino changes lives

Been saying it since I 5 star'd mine

Edited by Arcanite
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1 hour ago, MrSmokestack said:

I'm going to use both alongside Nino and her big brother Buffraim next week. So excited!

You won't be getting the x2 bonus with that team though. Camus will only become a bonus unit in two weeks.

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