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7 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

Beasts have absolutely nothing going for them that would allow them to attack Res. Never. They also have absolutely nothing going for them that would place them outside the triangle because melee grey would be pathetic for everyone involved.

so whats the excuse why dragon breath targets the weaker of the 3 stats? Last i checked a Dragon breath is a magical attack and should target RES...

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2 minutes ago, Hilda said:

so whats the excuse why dragon breath targets the weaker of the 3 stats? Last i checked a Dragon breath is a magical attack and should target RES...

Throughout the series, dragons have varied between hitting Def, hitting Res, and bypassing defenses entirely.

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1 hour ago, Hilda said:

so whats the excuse why dragon breath targets the weaker of the 3 stats? Last i checked a Dragon breath is a magical attack and should target RES...

If memory serves,

  • Breath weapons are physical? in FE3.
  • Breath weapons are physical? in FE6.
  • Flametongue ignores defenses in FE7.
  • Dragonstone is physical? in FE8.
  • Wretched Air ignores defenses in FE8.
  • Breath weapons are physical in FE9.
  • Red Breath and Black Breath are physical in FE10.
  • White Breath is magical in FE10.

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33 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If memory serves,

  • Breath weapons are physical? in FE3.
  • Breath weapons are physical? in FE6.
  • Flametongue ignores defenses in FE7.
  • Dragonstone is physical? in FE8.
  • Wretched Air ignores defenses in FE8.
  • Breath weapons are physical in FE9.
  • Red Breath and Black Breath are physical in FE10.
  • White Breath is magical in FE10.

In FE6/FE8 the Breaths are physical

In FE3 the Breaths ignore defenses.

Edited by Troykv

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46 minutes ago, Troykv said:

In FE3 the Breaths ignore defenses.

With the one exception of against other dragons IIHC. So Bantu and Tiki both take reduced physical damage. Neat if you ask me, the only thing resistant to the overpowering breath of dragons, is other dragons. Marth should've taken the time to skin a few of those many ferals he dices on Anri's Way, dragon mail is a common RPG thing IS should know.

 

And for SoV, Fire Breath and Water Breath negate Defense as well, as does Grima's Expiration.

That SoV stayed faithful to FE3 while 12 didn't, isn't simply because FE12 snubbed its original I would say, and more a rebalancing act. It sounds like high Def units, namely Knights (well Draug, since he and Sheema are the only Book 2 Armors), which would have been useful vs. Dragons, had their one good stat nulled entirely in FE3, making them no better, nay worse vs. Dragons than Heroes and Pallies or anyone else. SoV on the other hand relegates its Breath users to the postgame, so they can be true to the source material and downright nasty in gameplay without it upsetting the balance of things or being unfair.

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7 minutes ago, Hilda said:

If we wanna go that route we should also give Shuriken users auto Close Counter then

It's obvious that they have to pick and choose mechanics from the original games to implement in Heroes, and the resulting mechanic doesn't necessarily have to have perfect fidelity to the original.

There's nothing that they "should" do based on the mechanics of the original games, and you can make the Close Counter argument for tomes as well. There are options, but no requirements.

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15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

No, I really do want to match movement type. Downgrading to accommodate for the rest of your team is an actual decreasing marginal benefit.

A team of 3 infantry and 1 cavalry prevents the cavalry from running ahead to make the greatest use of its movement advantage partly because it needs to stay behind to acquire buffs and partly because it can't reach as far and still expect to be in range of being Repositioned back.

The fact that units can't be in the same square is why the 1 cav is useful for their mobility. Like, Reinhardt doesn't mind always being in the back of the formation because he'll always have enough range to get into combat or to reposition people.

The ability to get repositioned back is actually positioning dependent, not mobility dependent (I usually simplify and call +1 range and +1 move the same thing, but one helps positioning and the other movement, and they make a difference in cases like this). It's being 2 ranged that helps Rein here, not his actual horse mobility.

 

Strictly speaking, cavalry adds tactical mobility rather than strategic mobility when the rest of the team is slower than they are. This is similar to how a cavalry army other than the Mongols usually advanced as fast as an infantry army, because they still had to have wagons for horseshoes, supplies, and support, and those usually moved around the pace of an on-foot march.

That is, you can deploy your team for combat more flexibly, although how fast the team moves around the map in aggregate isn't affected as much. (It still is affected, mind, but the number one use of horse mobility is to AI manipulate, and we're discounting that. The easiest way to split the enemy team is to split your own team up and then recombine, horses split faster and recombine faster.)

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The numeric amount of buffs is not very different, but the positioning requirements are.

A Tactic team cannot run two squads of +6/6/0/0 like a 2 pairs team or 4 of a kind team can. The team is forced to stay together to collect those buffs.

In exchange, a Tactic team has more lenient positioning within their death ball as they can collect buffs from allies 2 squares away and have an easier time granting the full +6/6/6/6, even if that's usually unnecessary.

Even a Tactics team can afford Hone Types when they need it, because they tend to have more free skill slots from buffing 1.5 people per C-slot (3 people at half effect) compared to buffing 1 person per C-slot (Type Buffs, assuming it's a duo-pair situation). And, because of how strong Atk is relative to Spd, usually Atk Tactic + Hone Type in a pair gives very comparable combat. (This is most noticeable with Reinhardt's Dire Thunder set when paired with Bow Lyn, although obviously his -blade sets can't really afford this.)

But the main point is that we have multiple strong options in the C-slot now, meaning the advantage of Type Buff access isn't as big as it used to be.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

A dancer is +2 movement for one unit on the team each turn, which is different from +1 movement all the time and not directly comparable.

The way I think of dancers is that they're +2 free move for the team, at least right now, because we only have 2 move dancers. When you dance someone, that person gets their movement turn for free, and then their action turn at the cost of the dancer's action turn.

This means, essentially, the team moves an amount of extra squares equal to the dancer's movement per turn they dance someone. This is why I think flying dancers would be better than infantry dancers even if they didn't have Type buff access, and why I think Horse dancers would be better than both. (Note: I'd actually have to test out horse dancers to know for sure, there is a chance that flying dancer's more consistent mobility ends up better than their greater, but less consistent, mobility.)

 

Like, think of a infantry dancer dancing a horse compared to an horse dancer dancing a horse. The infantry can move up to 2 spaces before dancing the horse---giving the team 2 extra move---but the horse dancer can move up to 3 spaces before dancing the horse.

You don't always get to use those extra spaces, but they're there. Kind of like how you don't always get to move a horse's full mobility every turn.

 

How a dancer gives the team 2 extra movement is probably most obvious when a Flying pair with a dancer and a Horse pair without is trying to rush as far forward as possible.

The horse pair moves forward---the one that's more towards the 'back' moves first, and then the one that was in the front moves to reposition them forward. This moves the pair 4 squares forward, except the front and back horses swapped places.

The flier pair has multiple options, but the simplest is probably: Dancer in front, other one in back. Back moves forward---they can either repo the dancer or not, it doesn't matter---then the dancer either moves forward and dances, or, if they were repo'd, just dances in place. After that, the danced unit moves forward and repos the dancer.

This advances the flier pair 4 squares, just like the horse pair, except the dancer is still in front. 

The team as a whole therefore has around 16 squares of movement every turn because of their natural mobility and assist-slots.

 

(If a horse dancer existed a horse + horse dancer pair should move forward 4.5 squares, which is in line with the +1 move over other dancer types divided by 2.)

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm just going to reverse this line back at you:

A 2 pairs team with one armor pair still runs a maximum of 7 stat buffs. It's not 8, but that's hardly a difference. If you're running Tactic skills, you're going to have redundant buffs for all but one stat, and you can easily make an armor take that hit (because the unpaired Tactic skill won't apply its buff to its only user) or run your sole Spd Tactic on a unit that intends to be doubled.

Furthermore, it doesn't at all hinder a 2 pairs team running movement type buffs. The other pair should be self-sufficient, leaving your two armors similarly self-sufficient. Fewer buffs on your armors, sure, but player-phase armors don't really need buffs to begin with to achieve superlative combat performance.

There is nothing about an armor pair that forces you to play additional armors, but any additional armors you do play have virtually zero barrier to entry.

You can easily make Reinhardt take a Atk Tactic over Hone Cav hit, too. What stat you can afford to dump is more based on distribution and weapon choice than raw BST.

 

And the reason further armors in a team that already has an armor pair has a lower barrier of entry is because their lack of utility dragged everyone else down to their level. If your mobility is already junk losing a bit more doesn't hurt too much---this is because the value of mobility peaks around the mobility of the enemy team. If you have a ton more, or a ton less, extra mobility doesn't matter too much. If your buffs are already underpowered---either because you're taking weaker buffs or have difficulties applying them---then adding more armors actually helps, because buffs get more consistent and your units need less of them to function.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you don't need to do something, then not being able to do so isn't a weakness. It doesn't make you worse or better than anyone who can do that something. It changes the criteria by which you are rated, and that means you are rated based on the things you need to do and they are rated based on the things they need to do. A one-size-fits-all set of rating criteria simply doesn't work in the same way that using the a rubric for hiring a mechanic when trying to hire a lawyer is simply not going to work (and there is no one rubric that would simultaneously work for both hiring a mechanic and hiring a lawyer).

If an enemy-phase blue unit is unable to tank specific green threats, that's of zero consequence. It doesn't reduce their worth. However, being able to tank that threat is a small benefit. It won't be a particularly large benefit because most likely the unit will be out of commission for the remainder of the map for doing so.

If Reinhardt can run an EP phase build, then everyone who's running an EP phase build around his level will be competing against his offenses on player phase and his support abilities with that same EP build in order to score the same.

If a unit who could do everything didn't exist, then, fine, specialists might get pretty high scores. But we have multiple units who can do everything---not just from a 'you can specialize to do anything with skill-slots' but rather 'you can literally do multiple roles at once with one skill-set'---so the specialists have to be god damn special to get even close to these monsters.

(Mind, part of why Reinhardt scores so high for me---he's around 9 or 9.5---is also because he's very good from a 'you can specialize to do anything with skill-slots' perspective. Having multiple strong, viable builds that fulfill different roles is a plus when it comes to rating units, for me.)

 

Reinhardt, W!Tharja, Spring!Camilla, and, to a lesser extent, Leo, Armored!Henry, and Armored!Lyn can run these crazy ass sets. Of these, Reinhardt suffers from the lack of a strong support partner, W!Tharja from lack of a support partner and lower than average mobility, and Spring!Camilla is basically about as good as it gets. (Although I'd like slightly more res or hp in exchange for some def.)

Reinhardt is still fucking Reinhardt when it comes to his player phase offenses even with a EP build. His main draws---3 move, 2 range, fairly reliable ability to KO before counters are all kept.

 

We might just be scoring people differently, though---it sounds like we think of units almost the same way, to be honest, I just give people points for flexibility and ding them for not being flexible.

IRRC that's basically how the smogon people do it---a pokemon with multiple viable sets has ratings given for each set, but having multiple sets at all boosts their aggregate ratings a bit. Mind, that could be because of the lack of perfect information in pokemon PvP, since you don't get to know the other pokemon's set until they use their skills.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The thing is that the lazy option is more than good enough and is almost 100% reliable.

Gluing two units together is by far the easiest way to work with support options and is also the most flexible in terms of mobility. While it is not the strongest option, it is applicable to more situations and has fewer restrictions.

This is exactly why I don't like the Wave skills. While they apply a powerful buff that includes the user, it is not at all reliable.

We're probably just differing in how we see units here, honestly. (I completely agree about the wave skills, though---it's very similar to Firesweep in that you need a huge mobility advantage to use it consistently.)

 

I value reposition a lot more than draw back because, while it's harder to use, used well it's more flexible and just as strong if not stronger.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

High-mobility player-phase teams need Assist skills to reorganize because unless you are in a situation to sweep the opposing team in a single turn or you have successfully split the enemy team so that the survivors cannot reach you, you need Assist skills to move back out of enemy range.

Cavalry have the issue where they have fewer squares on the map that they can physically stand on and therefore cannot engage in combat in many areas on maps with large numbers of trees, which can force you to delay action by a turn, costing you movement turns and map space.

With swap and whatnot I thought you were talking about pre-combat positioning. Because I sort of just assumed a horse would just ride up and explode your back-line if you tried to use swap to get people out of the way. I suppose with wards that's less of an issue, but that's just running into the same flexibility vs. specialization argument again, since not all teams can afford to just ward up.

Regarding the cannot engage thing---that's mostly fixed by having 2-range. If you noticed, my scores for what I think are the best offensive melee cavalry and the best offensive melee fliers are the same at 8.5. (I actually think fliers are slightly better because they have Ninian and Azura, but it's not a big enough difference to bump them to 9. Reinhardt lives there.)

 

Personally I think the most mobile team*, as of now, is 2 fliers, 2 horses, with 1 flier being a dancer. This is because this grants you access to about 8 squares of flier mobility (if the dancer dances the other flier) and about 8 squares horse mobility. If the number of squares in terms of mobility is the same, flier is clearly superior because of reliability. And they can always go for 6 squares of flier mobility (repo on Cordelia) and 12 squares of horse mobility (repo on horse) if they wanted raw movement, since they can just dance a horse.

*That actually has combat worth a damn.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

The indoor offset-waffle map is the map where Reposition is at its absolute weakest without a flier due to the fact that all of its straight avenues are horizontal with none of the long vertical avenues of the waffle bridge map and parallel bridge map..

Furthermore, the design of the map is such that an enemy team with similar mobility as your own has the upper hand in positioning due to the fact that they can easily double up on attack ranges.

Is the indoor waffle map the one with 6 columns (walls) and 6 water tiles?

 

This one's hard to play if you have pure horses---because your most reliable option is the one-turn clean sweep---but you can usually build to get more mobility than the enemy team on this map. Because of, like you said, fliers.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you're strong enough to avoid the 4-round kill, then you're definitely not Odin.

There are very few units in the game that have the sustain for more than even 2 rounds of combat against the color they are effective against. This is why Desperation and Triangle Adept are so good.

I assume by "a single skill slot", you mean Renewal, which is a terrible skill for solving sustain problems (when not paired with Falchion). The rate at which it heals is good for sustain on units that already take little damage, but is abysmal for units that die in two rounds of combat because you are forced to wait multiple turns for the skill to actually bring your bulk high enough for another round of combat. The units that Renewal are good for are precisely the opposite of the units that already have trouble with sustain.

By single skill-slot I actually meant desperation, renewal, brave weapons, etc. You don't take damage if the other guy dies before they hit you, so even Hardy Bearing sort of counts---albeit it's kind of rare to find a person who'd want to use it. Reinhardt would use it well, dropping Quickened Pulse Moonbow to solidify his ability to take down weakened enemies (probably partner with a Firesweep Bow Lyn or a Dazzling Pain+ horse), but Reinhardt is, you know, Reinhardt.

Even Vantage and Wrath counts. Ayra keeps her player phase because she charges up her special Proc to OHKO. I'd have preferred for her to keep her enemy phase if she's running DC Wrath, but it's not like she's completely useless after going to critical hp.

 

And renewal is good for 2 types of units---units that take very low damage, and units that can wait a lot of turns before combat. Horses and fliers are great at the second part---infantry less so, but if you have a dancer you can usually just run and keep running. Horse teams can catch up to infantry mobility easily, but you need sustain less versus those teams because they're a lot easier to sweep.

Actually, it might be better to say that renewal is good for 2 types of teams---bulky teams and mobile teams.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Which is an extremely shallow way of thinking, applying a one-dimensional measure to a multi-dimensional problem.

To quote Atul Gawande, "What if you build a car from the very best car parts? Well, it would lead you to put in Porsche brakes, a Ferrari engine, a Volvo body, a BMW chassis, and you put it all together and what do you get? A very expensive pile of junk that does not go anywhere." While this is by no means a perfect metaphor, it gets to the heart of what I think you're doing wrong. The sum of the parts of a multi-dimensional problem is not always (in fact, it rarely is) the value of the whole.

When I recommend a player peruse a Tier list for ideas, I never tell them just that. I always add that they should read the details. Figure out what makes the unit tick. A simple summation of ratings won't account for synergistic compositions, like running Gunnthra on a team full of Ploy or Smoke skills, and won't account for compositions with high overlap and low aggregate coverage, like running four infantry lances.

The thing about the parts that I rated highly is that they're amazingly flexible on top of being strong. Not only do they 'peak' higher, their 'floor' is also lower. Like, it's kind of hard to fuck up with Reinhardt.

 

The Reinhardt Lyn Azura Cordelia lineup I used for my arena binge was built on the exact concept of ramming all the best parts into a team (it's my go-to solution for building a team quickly, although I did initialy use Elincia in place of Cordelia, before I realized that made armors way too undermerged relative to my team)---and, while they're not great, it's still an exceedingly strong team. I sand-bagged them with level 1 A-slots so that their low scores won't mean their merge advantage just crushes armors straight up, but it's still a very reliable team. (I didn't lose a single unit in the, I don't know, 30 or so teams I played---I didn't show them all because a lot of them just had a single armor lead.)

The team functioned despite the odd color balance because everyone was flexible enough to cover weaknesses. Bow Lyn had Firesweep, Mulagir, Brave Bow options, and multiple B-slot options for sustain and coverage. Reinhardt was Reinhardt. Azura provided 6/6/5/4 to Cordelia on demand, and, combined with the other horse, 6/6/5/4 to Rein or Bow Lyn when they needed bulk. Cordelia rounded it up by adding turn-gen utility with Galeforce. (Cordelia was specced against mobile teams that I need more turns but less combat to deal with, of course armors aren't teams like that, but there's a reason I didn't just bring a Dazzling Pain+.)

 

I agree that you shouldn't count points by just adding them up---like, the 2x dancer 2x flier or 2x horse team would have like 38 points or something crazy if you just went by my scores, but it is, in fact, pretty shit. Depending on the fliers and horses it could still be 30+ points, maybe even 34 or 35, but it's nowhere near the completely busted the raw addition would imply.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

And really, when you're arguing using these points, you're using the rating system you've created to justify the team compositions you find adequate and using the team compositions you find adequate to define the rating criteria of the rating system you've created.

Dude. I defined literally everyone as adequate. 5.5 means four people on your level is more than good enough. You still had to do the team building work of getting the right skill-slots, color coverage, and whatever, but my rating system would be very helpful to let you know what unit you might or might not want for a team and how easy it is to put a certain unit in your team.

 

The 9/10s and 10/10 are the amazing units that fit into basically any team (Reinhardt, Bow Lyn, Flying Azura, Flying Ninian, other dancers, etc.) and can either do multiple roles at once or can specialize to become the best in the one role the team needs.

 

The 8/10s were the people who provided unique utility as well as being great all around, or else units that are amazing enough to be 9/10 or 10/10 but suffer from certain factors currently out of their control. These were people like Tana, Brave Roy, W!Tharja (it's not her fault armors didn't have a dancer). They'll either be the best units at their god damn jobs, and are decent to great at their other jobs, but aren't at the level of completely busted the top scorers are. Or they're W!Tharja type units---if there's a unit worth running a 3 protect 1 strategy for, it's her. She's very good without support and turns into a god damn monster with support, but she doesn't have a strong enough support partner to properly leverage how broken her skillset and spread actually is.

 

The 7/10s are the people who either do everything okayish---rather than the 10/10s who can do everything amazingly---or the people who only do 1 thing, and do it extremely well.

7/10s are hard to slot into a team without a good understanding of team building and unit roles because they're there to either add flexibility to the team or shore up a very specific weakness.

 

6/10s are units that do one job, and that's about it, and don't even do it at the best levels. They're fairly easy to run, but you usually have to spend resources to compensate for their weaknesses.

 

5/10s currently only has 1 member of the units I reviewed. And it's Saber at 5 and a half. It's not that he does everything terribly, it's that everyone does everything better than he does. He's still more than good enough to use in an arena team, just even harder to slot in than the other people.

15 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

No, that's not a death ball. That may be true in other games, but that is nowhere near true in Heroes.

Heroes forces you to move units one at a time, and that is what makes the biggest difference when comparing to MOBAs or RTSs. Moving your units one at a time forces them to move out of the death ball until the rest of your units catch up, which defeats the entire purpose of a death ball.

An armor death ball is powerful because enemy mobility is powerless against it. As long as you can control who attacks which of your units on any given turn, you've won. This is also why Swap is the optimal Assist skill for armors. What a death ball needs is not the ability to move far with a single action, but to move to a very specific square, and that is what Swap achieves. You don't need the mobility to flank or separate your opponent, you need the granularity of movement to rearrange your own units' formation.

You mentioned that mobility allows you to divide enemy forces to turn battles into 4v3, 4v2, or 4v1 situations to grant you an advantage, but that is exactly what a death ball does in reverse. By exploiting the fact that units are forced to move one at a time and the fact that units are (almost always) forced to attack you when baited, you can turn every individual turn into a 4v1 or 4v2 situation because the opponent is forced to split (in both a logical and physical sense) into a group of units that will attack you on this turn and a group of units that will not attack you on this turn.

We probably just have different definitions of these things.

 

Like, the armor deathball getting units walked at them is more like forcing the enemy to attack an entrenched* position than deathball to me. And I considered the horse team a deathball because of how every combat worked---every combat after the first is easier because of the setup the earlier combats did. Like, Reinhardt would probably be the reverse-pointman (he'd be all the way in the back but the first person to move, owing to his superior threat range) and clear a unit immediately while applying either Savage Blow or positioning himself to give Goad or Drive or whatever to everyone else.

*Just because there's no fort doesn't mean you didn't basically make a strong-point where it's really stupid to attack.

Weakening the enemy is just the same as strengthening your own team, so his first combat would be to take out the critical buff carrier in the enemy team and debuff the enemy team via either strenghening his own or just straight up applying Smoke or Savage Blow.

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@DehNutCase I hate to be that guy, but do you really have to post a wall of text that could cover the coast of Long Beach? Scrolling down almost infinitely is getting annoying. Maybe spoiler tag it or something. 

Beast units will definitely be physical, but likely not colorless. I don’t think they’ll follow the Laguz triangle because Dragon Laguz will likely just be classified as dragons. I expect a lot of liberties to be taken here.

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Anyone got tips on doing Robin infernal with fliers and armors? Armors looks like a pain in the ass because most have low Res and the map is full of mages. And fliers look like a pain in the ass for me because I don't have a flying dancer and a dancer was like the only way I could ever clear this one. I tried to pull one (NY Azura), I really did. But 300+ orbs on Ryoma's legendary banner said no. >_>

Oh, and the flier and armor teams I've built are these:

Gerome, Witch Nowi/legendary Ryoma, Clair/Tana/Cordelia, Summer Corrin/Kinshi Hinoka (Hinoka needs finished being built though...)

Black Knight, Christmas Robin, legendary Hector/Zombie Jakob/Count Henry

EDIT: Forgot one more thing. Do not try using videos. They won't work.

EDIT2: Actually found a way to do it with armors! Legendary Hector is so valuable. Though I had to put DD3 on him and give him a Fortify Armor boost.

I'm still at a loss on how to do this with fliers though.

Edited by Anacybele

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1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

The fact that units can't be in the same square is why the 1 cav is useful for their mobility. Like, Reinhardt doesn't mind always being in the back of the formation because he'll always have enough range to get into combat or to reposition people.

You're blatantly ignoring the situation where Reinhardt is at the front of your formation because you actually do want to hit something 5 squares away from your front line. No one else will be able to reach him to Reposition him back unless they also have 3 movement range.

 

4 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Strictly speaking, cavalry adds tactical mobility rather than strategic mobility when the rest of the team is slower than they are.

What you're saying is that, strictly speaking, when you don't have another cavalry unit on your team to match its movement range, you've sacrificed the strategic mobility you could have gained by using another cavalry unit instead.

In other words, a lone cavalry unit only gives you tactical mobility and no strategic mobility, but a pair of cavalry units gives you both tactical mobility and strategic mobility.

This is another case of the parts adding up to less than the whole.

 

16 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Even a Tactics team can afford Hone Types when they need it, because they tend to have more free skill slots from buffing 1.5 people per C-slot (3 people at half effect) compared to buffing 1 person per C-slot (Type Buffs, assuming it's a duo-pair situation). And, because of how strong Atk is relative to Spd, usually Atk Tactic + Hone Type in a pair gives very comparable combat. (This is most noticeable with Reinhardt's Dire Thunder set when paired with Bow Lyn, although obviously his -blade sets can't really afford this.)

But the main point is that we have multiple strong options in the C-slot now, meaning the advantage of Type Buff access isn't as big as it used to be.

And yet this whole response makes zero mention of the positioning requirements that was the main point of the quote you were responding to.

 

17 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

The way I think of dancers is that they're +2 free move for the team, at least right now, because we only have 2 move dancers. When you dance someone, that person gets their movement turn for free, and then their action turn at the cost of the dancer's action turn.

I know exactly what you mean by dancers giving +2 free movement to the team. You just wasted ten paragraphs not addressing the issue and ranting about something else that we both already understand.

You have completely ignored the point, which is that a permanent +1 movement to a single unit is not comparable to +2 movement you can hand out to one unit every turn.

 

21 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

You can easily make Reinhardt take a Atk Tactic over Hone Cav hit, too. What stat you can afford to dump is more based on distribution and weapon choice than raw BST.

No, seriously, are you even reading what you're responding to?

 

26 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

And the reason further armors in a team that already has an armor pair has a lower barrier of entry is because their lack of utility dragged everyone else down to their level.

No, the reason further armors on a team that already has an armor pair has a lower barrier to entry is because you already have Armor March or two stacks of Ward Armor on the team. A single Armor March user can typically sustain 2 other armors by itself.

Have you actually played with a fully built armor team before?

 

34 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

If Reinhardt can run an EP phase build, then everyone who's running an EP phase build around his level will be competing against his offenses on player phase and his support abilities with that same EP build in order to score the same.

Obviously.

I think you're overestimating Reinhardt's abilities, though. Reinhardt needs a ton of support just to equal Hardin's enemy phase performance. Reinhardt running a Blarblade Close Counter build with +6/6/0/0 is comparable to Hardin's standard mixed-phase build with no support at all and has a notably worse player phase than Hardin if you exclude Hardin's lower reach.

Reinhardt's combat performance with +6/6/6/6 on both phases is actually comparable to Hardin's combat performance with +0/0/8/8 trading more mobility for the requirement of more specialized support.

 

If you had actually read the earlier points, you'd also know that I don't find +6/6/6/6 particularly reliable.

 

31 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Mind, that could be because of the lack of perfect information in pokemon PvP, since you don't get to know the other pokemon's set until they use their skills.

If you read tiering discussions for Pokémon, you'd know that that's exactly why Pokémon with multiple sets have higher tiering than their individual best sets.

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Because I sort of just assumed a horse would just ride up and explode your back-line if you tried to use swap to get people out of the way.

The thing about playing a predominantly enemy-phase team is that your back line is actually out of reach for two reasons.

First, because you play reactively, you can usually make sure that your front line is always at the very edge of the opponent's reach. Failing that, you have the second reason, which is that Wards have 2 range, meaning you can deploy the armored flower formation (a diamond) where the squares needed to reach the back line are occupied by the front line.

The beauty of Swap is that the armored flower can use the center square as a switch table, rearranging itself from any configuration into any other configuration within the space of a single turn.

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Regarding the cannot engage thing---that's mostly fixed by having 2-range.

Not really. Your unit's attack range doesn't change whether or not you can be Repositioned out of a specific square. It just changes the position the opponent needs to be at in order to need to attack from that square.

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

This one's hard to play if you have pure horses---because your most reliable option is the one-turn clean sweep---but you can usually build to get more mobility than the enemy team on this map. Because of, like you said, fliers.

Yes, that's the map.

You can't really build a team on the fly for the map in the normal Arena, though.

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

And renewal is good for 2 types of units---units that take very low damage, and units that can wait a lot of turns before combat. Horses and fliers are great at the second part---infantry less so, but if you have a dancer you can usually just run and keep running.

It takes 3 or 4 turns to gain 20 HP from Renewal. That's a massive number of turns unless you're against an armored team without mobility buffs.

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

Dude. I defined literally everyone as adequate. 5.5 means four people on your level is more than good enough.

The problem is not the numbers you used. You could have said 10 was adequate or you could have said 30 was adequate and the same problem would arise.

What matters here is not the numerical ratings you have given, but the reasoning behind the criteria you use for judgment.

 

1 hour ago, DehNutCase said:

We probably just have different definitions of these things.

My experience of a death ball is shaped by the death ball meta of the early days of StarCraft 2.

The death balls of the time were such that splitting your death ball was generally not advised because that compromises the advantage you have in being in a death ball: any enemy that enters the range of one unit in your ball is also in the range of everything in your ball.

The armor death ball works on the same principle, except that because combat is always one-on-one, the "everything in your ball" that can also hit the target is replaced by the number of buffs you can acquire from everything else in your ball.

In this way, the armor death ball that you call an "entrenched position" is closer to my experience of a death ball than your death ball that splits and re-forms. What your "death ball" is doing is not behaving as a death ball. You're performing one or two surgical attacks to thin out the death ball or snipe key units before closing in for attack.

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Sigh...

Looks like there really IS no fucking way to do Robin infernal with fliers without a fucking flying dancer. Which as I said, I don't fucking have. They're all squishy as hell and can't take hits from both attack types.

But if I'm wrong here, can someone PLEASE help me already? There aren't many hours left in the day.

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26 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Sigh...

Looks like there really IS no fucking way to do Robin infernal with fliers without a fucking flying dancer. Which as I said, I don't fucking have. They're all squishy as hell and can't take hits from both attack types.

But if I'm wrong here, can someone PLEASE help me already? There aren't many hours left in the day.

To complete is, I built a team around Grima, if you happen to have her. From the units you've mentioned, Ryoma sounds the best bet to replicate it, but obviously he's a lot frailer so you might need Aether to keep him alive.

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2 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

To complete is, I built a team around Grima, if you happen to have her. From the units you've mentioned, Ryoma sounds the best bet to replicate it, but obviously he's a lot frailer so you might need Aether to keep him alive.

I do have her, but I never finished leveling her up or anything since I don't care about Grima. And there's not enough time left to build her up enough anyway.

I'm trying to use Myrrh right now, and she can actually take the hits. But I think I'll try unequiping Fury.

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51 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you read tiering discussions for Pokémon, you'd know that that's exactly why Pokémon with multiple sets have higher tiering than their individual best sets.

@DehNutCase I know for a fact that Swirlix was banned from LC precisely because the list of things that counter physical Swirlix and the list of things that counter special Swirlix is mutually exclusive, and guess wrong and you're dead.

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35 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Sigh...

Looks like there really IS no fucking way to do Robin infernal with fliers without a fucking flying dancer. Which as I said, I don't fucking have. They're all squishy as hell and can't take hits from both attack types.

But if I'm wrong here, can someone PLEASE help me already? There aren't many hours left in the day.

Can your Summer Corrin one-round kill the red mage?

If she can, try doing that and then Repositioning her back with a bulkier unit like Gerome or Myrrh. Atk Ploy can be used on the unit in the fourth slot to hit the axe fighter and Robin to help out (both have 25 Res, so you only need 26 Res to hit them), and if you have any spare copies of 4-star Shigure, you can hand out Ward Fliers to someone to buff your tank a bit more. Summer Corrin can keep her default Fortify Fliers to help your tank, as well.

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10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Can your Summer Corrin one-round kill the red mage?

If she can, try doing that and then Repositioning her back with a bulkier unit like Gerome or Myrrh. Atk Ploy can be used on the unit in the fourth slot to hit the axe fighter and Robin to help out (both have 25 Res, so you only need 26 Res to hit them), and if you have any spare copies of 4-star Shigure, you can hand out Ward Fliers to someone to buff your tank a bit more. Summer Corrin can keep her default Fortify Fliers to help your tank, as well.

Gerome doesn't survive. I've already been trying Myrrh. Still isn't working. I've never pulled Shigure.

Edited by Anacybele

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39 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Sigh...

Looks like there really IS no fucking way to do Robin infernal with fliers without a fucking flying dancer. Which as I said, I don't fucking have. They're all squishy as hell and can't take hits from both attack types.

But if I'm wrong here, can someone PLEASE help me already? There aren't many hours left in the day.

Hi.

I'm new in this forum. And English is not my first language so bear with me.

But if it helps you; I used Summer Corrin with Fortify fliers to reposition Legendary Ryoma with Distant defense. Then Ryoma attack  the top  Axe user killing him.

In the enemy phase Ryoma kils Robin and the Red mage. Surviving the Blue mage attack. 

Then I move back Ryoma next to Summer COrrin. It got reposition back. Kinshi HInoka attacks the axe user from the other side of the wall. In enemy phase Summer COrrin tanks the Axe user. 

Next turn Hinoka kills the axe user. And then Myrrh can kill the blue mage and lance user.

It is the first time I try to give advice, so it probably doesn't make sense. Also my Ryoma is +Res/-Atk. So maybe it is not possible with yours.

SUmmer COrrin could be replace with any unit with Fortify and survive the axe user I suppose.

Kinshi HInoka could be replace with other range flier.

Hopefully this could help.

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2 minutes ago, Ascot said:

Hi.

I'm new in this forum. And English is not my first language so bear with me.

But if it helps you; I used Summer Corrin with Fortify fliers to reposition Legendary Ryoma with Distant defense. Then Ryoma attack  the top  Axe user killing him.

In the enemy phase Ryoma kils Robin and the Red mage. Surviving the Blue mage attack. 

Then I move back Ryoma next to Summer COrrin. It got reposition back. Kinshi HInoka attacks the axe user from the other side of the wall. In enemy phase Summer COrrin tanks the Axe user. 

Next turn Hinoka kills the axe user. And then Myrrh can kill the blue mage and lance user.

It is the first time I try to give advice, so it probably doesn't make sense. Also my Ryoma is +Res/-Atk. So maybe it is not possible with yours.

SUmmer COrrin could be replace with any unit with Fortify and survive the axe user I suppose.

Kinshi HInoka could be replace with other range flier.

Hopefully this could help.

Tried that. Doesn't work, probably because my legendary Ryoma is -Res.

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36 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Gerome doesn't survive. I've already been trying Myrrh. Still isn't working. I've never pulled Shigure.

Even with the Distant Def or Close Def seal (and Quick Riposte 2 or 3) on Myrrh? Give Myrrh Noontime for healing?

Spur Def or Spur Res seal on Corrin (even if it's only level 1)? Drive Def seal on the person standing behind Corrin?

Edited by Ice Dragon

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3 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Even with the Distant Def or Close Def seal (and Quick Riposte 2 or 3) on Myrrh? Give Myrrh Noontime for healing?

Spur Def or Spur Res seal on Corrin (even if it's only level 1)? Drive Def seal on the person standing behind Corrin?

Nevermind, I somehow found a solution with Myrrh. I appreciate you trying to help though, Ice Dragon.

I also noticed I didn't do this with horses and I decided I'll grab the extra copy of female Robin for merging at some point. I think I can figure this out though, I've almost found a solution.

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12 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Tried that. Doesn't work, probably because my legendary Ryoma is -Res.

I have another way.

With Myrrh having distant defense and having fortify buff putting her in the square in front of the lance user she will survive the enemy phase.

Then with Hinoka FLying guidance she can comeback to safety (putting Hinoka behind the wall)

I then attack the top axe user with Summer Corrin(Ryoma reposition her to the top with the help of flying formation seal). The Hinoka attacks the axe user.

In enemy phase the blue mage attacks HInoka.

The next turn Hinoka kills the blue mage. Got reposition to safety by Summer Corrin to the top. Ryoma goes down and kills the axe user.

In enemy phase Ryoma with fortify buff from Summer Corrin survive and kills the axe user, the red mage and Robin.

Myrrh can kill the lance user.

Myrrh has goad fliers and quick riposte 2. I don't know think goad makes the difference here.

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Ascot said:

I have another way.

With Myrrh having distant defense and having fortify buff putting her in the square in front of the lance user she will survive the enemy phase.

Then with Hinoka FLying guidance she can comeback to safety (putting Hinoka behind the wall)

I then attack the top axe user with Summer Corrin(Ryoma reposition her to the top with the help of flying formation seal). The Hinoka attacks the axe user.

In enemy phase the blue mage attacks HInoka.

The next turn Hinoka kills the blue mage. Got reposition to safety by Summer Corrin to the top. Ryoma goes down and kills the axe user.

In enemy phase Ryoma with fortify buff from Summer Corrin survive and kills the axe user, the red mage and Robin.

Myrrh can kill the lance user.

Myrrh has goad fliers and quick riposte 2. I don't know think goad makes the difference here.

That's kind of what I actually did, but I used Gerome and Witch Nowi since my Kinshi Hinoka isn't built yet and I just wanted to try Nowi over Ryoma at that point for whatever reason. I eventually found something that worked, but thanks.

Also just cleared with horses, so I'm finally completely through with this stupid battle! Yay!

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I just thought of this, but if the New Heroes banner really is an Awakening banner...then I fully expect the next Legendary hero to be Lucina with a beefed-up version of the lance they gave her Brave variant.

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16 minutes ago, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I just thought of this, but if the New Heroes banner really is an Awakening banner...then I fully expect the next Legendary hero to be Lucina with a beefed-up version of the lance they gave her Brave variant.

They could do that, but if they really want to do something out of left field they should reference Warriors and give her a blue bow.

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