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3 hours ago, silveraura25 said:

Reclassing can be considered sort of a fix on some units. Nobody is perfect, especially whoever decides the in-game parameters for units of previous games. Occasionally you see units like Draug who is a glass cannon trapped in a tank's body

I like Draug and all, but this is a myth. Draug already have 80% HP and 55% Defense growth, and  Draug is actually the ideal General - you don't need defense during the area where General is good, and by the time general is good you transition into Sniper and Horseman. By the end of the game a good character is basically a character who uses Bows well anyway because Bows are a godly weapon type

 

The thing about it is Knight is weird in Archanea where Knight is fucking garbage, but General is absurd. Most knight would just drop dead if you sneeze at them because their bulk isn't enough and they will get doubled. Theres no character in Archanea FE who have high enough stats that they could face tank 2 attacks and live as a knight, so Knight is garbage. Doesn't matter who you use. If you use Merric as a Knight he would also be garbage.

 

And then when you get general? The promotion gain is literally +10 HP, +4 SPD, +5 DEF and its like NO SHIT TANKING IS SO EASY NOW

 

Theres a reason why Glass Cannon in a tank body exists, but Tank in a Glass Cannon body doesn't. The former is workable, the later is likely garbage

 

3 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

It can be a lot of fun, honestly. I’m very definitely having a lot of fun on my current Maid Emblem Revelation run, where everyone who can possibly a maid is one. Looking forward to trying to beat the final boss with thirteen maids in aprons and stuff.

It does sometimes dilute the characterisation, but sometimes plays on and with it (for example, Maribelle passes down to her son the barbarian class because she jokes about wanting to be a big, hairy barbarian; or Fates’ Charlotte being able to become a troubadour despite her outward selfishness because of her Actually Selfless™ personality; or Kellam’s nondescriptiveness enabling for him the thief line of classes; and so on). My main gripe with reclassing is that aside from a couple of predetermined “canon” classes (falcon knight for Sumia in Awakening, bow knight for Selena in Fates as a couple of examples), the reclasses use generic colourscheme and models (which, thankfully, is rectified in SoV), and the portraits always stay the same.

I mean, yeah, sure, Cherche’s and Gerome’s gushing about Minerva the wyvern makes no sense if they aren’t currently actually riding Minerva the wyvern, but that’s a jab at support writers’ collective chin and a point for another day.

Oh, and “gotta catch ’em all (skills)” mentality promoted by Awakening and Fates reclassing system is also a negative, I must admit.

 

Honestly if they use Shadow Dragon system with Fates mechanics.... and.... Shadow Dragon general mechanic because fuck Awakening and Fates having "START AT # RANK WEAPON!" btw, Reclasisng would be perfect. Offers enough freedom without really going overboard. The whole class mix and matching would have to go under such assumptions and honestly Thracia have way less class and freedom than Fates and it have more broken build potential than any other games in the series. Just.... do that again. Not as crazy, but its a good spot

 

Naturally theres a lot of things were giving away for a more limited system - Wendell comes to mind since he's able to use almost every class in the sun for some reason, and legitimately effective and innovative strategies like Swordmaster Linde, but they can just make characters with different classes access good

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5 hours ago, mcsilas said:

Liking that new Sharena avatar @Vaximillian! Also lol at the orb earrings.

So here's a random thought, I wonder if they could somehow buff Silver+ weapons/Rexcalibur+/Bolganone+/Thoron+ Shine+ somehow. They're pretty much obsolete and units like Lilina are getting prf weapons so there's no reason to use them, but what if a unit had a personal skill (or maybe inheritable) that allows Silver weapons to have at least some use?

I don't know if it would make sense to do something about those weapons if their owners could get a prf (Cordelia and Oliver please) instead. 

Didn't see those orb earrings, nice. Where is it from, @Vaximillian

2 hours ago, Zeo said:

...I'm tired. I don't feel like doing the Abyssal maps this time. I think I'm just going to follow guides for the accessories and be done with it.

...I need a break.

Didn't do Lucina and Ryoma Abyssal either. Doesn't satisfy to solve the same maps over and over. 

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1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

I like Draug and all, but this is a myth. Draug already have 80% HP and 55% Defense growth, and  Draug is actually the ideal General - you don't need defense during the area where General is good, and by the time general is good you transition into Sniper and Horseman. By the end of the game a good character is basically a character who uses Bows well anyway because Bows are a godly weapon type

 

The thing about it is Knight is weird in Archanea where Knight is fucking garbage, but General is absurd. Most knight would just drop dead if you sneeze at them because their bulk isn't enough and they will get doubled. Theres no character in Archanea FE who have high enough stats that they could face tank 2 attacks and live as a knight, so Knight is garbage. Doesn't matter who you use. If you use Merric as a Knight he would also be garbage.

 

And then when you get general? The promotion gain is literally +10 HP, +4 SPD, +5 DEF and its like NO SHIT TANKING IS SO EASY NOW

 

Theres a reason why Glass Cannon in a tank body exists, but Tank in a Glass Cannon body doesn't. The former is workable, the later is likely garbage

 

 

Honestly if they use Shadow Dragon system with Fates mechanics.... and.... Shadow Dragon general mechanic because fuck Awakening and Fates having "START AT # RANK WEAPON!" btw, Reclasisng would be perfect. Offers enough freedom without really going overboard. The whole class mix and matching would have to go under such assumptions and honestly Thracia have way less class and freedom than Fates and it have more broken build potential than any other games in the series. Just.... do that again. Not as crazy, but its a good spot

 

Naturally theres a lot of things were giving away for a more limited system - Wendell comes to mind since he's able to use almost every class in the sun for some reason, and legitimately effective and innovative strategies like Swordmaster Linde, but they can just make characters with different classes access good

Really? I can't remember who said it. Mekkah or Mangs? Give me a second. Nope they didn't say it. Must've heard it from somewhere else most likely. But anyways picking up from their unit review, when you reclass him his speed bases/growths improve significantly so he becomes a different kind of unit. My bad for coming off in the wrong way and misremembering. My previous comment should be something like this: "Draug becomes a different type of unit with reclassing"

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1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

I like Draug and all, but this is a myth. Draug already have 80% HP and 55% Defense growth, and  Draug is actually the ideal General - you don't need defense during the area where General is good, and by the time general is good you transition into Sniper and Horseman. By the end of the game a good character is basically a character who uses Bows well anyway because Bows are a godly weapon type

 

The thing about it is Knight is weird in Archanea where Knight is fucking garbage, but General is absurd. Most knight would just drop dead if you sneeze at them because their bulk isn't enough and they will get doubled. Theres no character in Archanea FE who have high enough stats that they could face tank 2 attacks and live as a knight, so Knight is garbage. Doesn't matter who you use. If you use Merric as a Knight he would also be garbage.

 

And then when you get general? The promotion gain is literally +10 HP, +4 SPD, +5 DEF and its like NO SHIT TANKING IS SO EASY NOW

 

Theres a reason why Glass Cannon in a tank body exists, but Tank in a Glass Cannon body doesn't. The former is workable, the later is likely garbage

 

 

Honestly if they use Shadow Dragon system with Fates mechanics.... and.... Shadow Dragon general mechanic because fuck Awakening and Fates having "START AT # RANK WEAPON!" btw, Reclasisng would be perfect. Offers enough freedom without really going overboard. The whole class mix and matching would have to go under such assumptions and honestly Thracia have way less class and freedom than Fates and it have more broken build potential than any other games in the series. Just.... do that again. Not as crazy, but its a good spot

 

Naturally theres a lot of things were giving away for a more limited system - Wendell comes to mind since he's able to use almost every class in the sun for some reason, and legitimately effective and innovative strategies like Swordmaster Linde, but they can just make characters with different classes access good

Really? I can't remember who said it. Mekkah or Mangs? Give me a second. Nope they didn't say it. Must've heard it from somewhere else most likely. But anyways picking up from their unit review, when you reclass him his speed bases/growths improve significantly so he becomes a different kind of unit. My bad for coming off in the wrong way and misremembering. My previous comment should be something like this: "Draug becomes a different type of unit with reclassing"

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1 hour ago, silveraura25 said:

Really? I can't remember who said it. Mekkah or Mangs? Give me a second. Nope they didn't say it. Must've heard it from somewhere else most likely. But anyways picking up from their unit review, when you reclass him his speed bases/growths improve significantly so he becomes a different kind of unit. My bad for coming off in the wrong way and misremembering. My previous comment should be something like this: "Draug becomes a different type of unit with reclassing"

Its true that Draug actually become a different type of unit with reclassing, its just that its not specifically because "hes naturally a glass cannon so hes a shit tank and a good offensive unit" and closer to "Knight is gutter shit and you'd better off gtfo from there". Draug's defensive base isn't particularly low relative to the cast hes competing with and his growth is already beyond incosnsitent area

 

To give an idea Chapter 1 Axeman on Maniac does 11 damage to Knight Draug, who have 22 HP and 11 DEF, and does 17 damage once in return

Pirate Draug, otoh would have 22 HP and 4 def. And gets +8 Speed from the reclassing

So both Knight and Pirate died in 2 hits, while Pirate kills 1 in return. Since FE12 have few enemies, the result is Knight sucked. This got worse in Lunatic where both died, but on Lunatic, Mercenary Draug is the only build that take hits

 

Meanwhile once you have General, its a different story. Almost anyone can tank if they have 28 HP and 15 Defense. General Draug at L1 would have 32 Def, 15 HP, and 9 SPD and is basically a godly tank regardless. This would continue until they become unviable and at that point you just turn them into Archers. General is actually a decent class, its just that the times it could have been solid, theres not really anyone doing it that isnt better off as a mount

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12 hours ago, mcsilas said:

@Hawk King where are you getting 400 sp from? I just checked my Hrid and it says he needs 300 sp to learn it, just like DC

I checked gamepedia. I’m glad to learn it was a mistake. 

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1 hour ago, Quintessence said:

I don't have Steady Breath but I have yellow border skillz

Why Renewal and not QR or a breaker? 37 Spd is not that good for killing people if you want her to kill people.
Also, awwwww.

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Moving here so we don't derail Q&A anymore.

41 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

And the entire point I'm making is that it's stupid to do so.

Well, it depends on what you want your rating system to do, exactly.

 

Your system grades units based on how well they defeat the best possible team, my system grades them based on how they compare to the best currently possible unit. Which means your system is probably meant to find units that you should be using to defeat the best possible teams, but mine is a bit stricter and just finds the best units. (And you can probably turn my system into yours by just treating every unit past a certain x/10 cut-off as 10/10 units---unless I drastically mis-evaluated some units somewhere.)

Which sounds a little nonsensical because what's the best unit if not the the units that can defeat all the best possible enemy teams? But I rate people for gross overkill like being able to defeat all the best possible enemy teams multiple ways, with handicaps, with insufficient resources, with improper team-building, while over-killing unnecessarily etc.

 

For people around our level your system is enough---just point out the good units and we can pretty much figure out how to build the team around them and how to use them without problems*, and we'll also update our evaluations when new skills/units come out.

*Like, I don't insult you by implying you can't run hyper-offensive teams I like to run, and you don't insult me by saying I can't run armor emblem. We don't do that because we know we're good enough to build and run pretty much whatever team we want.

 

My system, though, is partly designed to be mildly 'future-proof' (it accounts for strengths that aren't currently relevant---that is, I rated Reinhardt highly for his extreme mobility even before we needed that mobility to kill healers, to take forts in GC, to hit pots in Aether Raids etc.), but also to account for the fact that the people looking at my rating might not necessarily have enough resources, team building skill, or whatever to use a unit to its full ability---and it's the gross overkill units that are least affected by this. Spring Camilla, for example, can kill teams as a classic offensive -blade tomer, a CC tomer, TA Raven, or even a weirdo buffbot with Hone Fliers and Hibiscus Tome if she wanted to, meaning if the player running her could only run defensive teams Spring Camilla is still good as a CC tomer and TA raven, or if the player running her could only run offensive versions then she's just a regular -blade tomer, and the weirdos who can only run support units for some reason can use her as a Hone Flier Hibiscus Tome reposition bot.

Being gross overkill also means you're harder to 'nerf' properly. Like, imagine trying to nerf Reinhardt and only people like Reinhardt. If you just hit his mobility then he still keeps his broken weapon slot and extremely good C slot, yet you probably shaft melee horses with him. If you just nerf tomes then he's still a horse with Type buff access while other tomes are probably hit harder, etc. (He'll definitely be worse with every good part of him you take away, but he has so many good parts that you need to destroy a lot of the cast to destroy him.)

 

I guess that's just a really long-winded way of saying that I'm using my rating system to find the strongest, most flexible, and hardest to 'ruin' units.

Edit: Like, imagine if we had three units to try and ruin, a Reinhardt, a Flying Dancer, and an Armor. I'd start with removing the weapon slot, which turns the armor into basically a joke, Reinhardt into a repo/buff bot (which is still worth running in certain situations), but the dancer is almost completely untouched.

Edited by DehNutCase

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And speaking of yellow borders, they aren’t the focus of this screenshot:
Screenshot_20181202-114133.png
But the fact that Ylgr has capped her HM and thus outlived her usefulness is.
Now give Cecilia blade raven, Intsys. Don’t be cowards.

@SatsumaFSoysoy @mampfoid @mcsilas @Rafiel's Aria @Cute Chao @daisy jane

Edited by Vaximillian

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4 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

My system, though, it partly designed to be mildly 'future-proof' (it accounts for strengths that aren't currently relevant

You know, you literally could have shortened your post to just this, and you'd get the exact same point across. This line alone would have been better than your tl;dr at the end.

 

The reason I don't consider future-proofing at all in my calculation is because you don't know how the game designers will choose to "ruin" something in the future. You're under the assumption that it's not possible to target strong units without also targeting weaker units.

For an egregious case, take Puzzle & Dragons. At one point, they made a character that was far too strong, specifically that its damage output was too high. What the designers created as a counter was to create a boss that had a mechanic where dealing more than a certain amount of damage resulted in the boss healing instead of taking damage. In doing so, it made said overpowered character impossible to bring to any node where this boss had a chance to spawn (and later characters with the ability to deal massive damage could be made with their damage tunable to values just below the threshold after things had been rebalanced).

In the case of Reinhardt, you can easily target Dire Thunder (and a few other annoying things, like Desperation and Dazzling Staff) by implementing a "Deflect Magic Guard" skill similar to Close Guard and Distant Guard that applies Deflect Magic to nearby allies (instead of Close Def and Distant Def).

In the case of my two overkill units, you can nerf the unit with higher overkill without significantly affecting the unit with lower overkill by implementing a defensive skill that makes any damage more than 50 taken only deal 10 damage without affecting weaker attacks.

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24 minutes ago, Vaximillian said:

And speaking of yellow borders, they aren’t the focus of this screenshot:
Screenshot_20181202-114133.png
But the fact that Ylgr has capped her HM and thus outlived her usefulness is.
Now give Cecilia blade raven, Intsys. Don’t be cowards.

@SatsumaFSoysoy @mampfoid @mcsilas @Rafiel's Aria @Cute Chao @daisy jane

 

oooh good job. 
Ylgr died so that Cecilia can be so very awesome :)

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@Vaximillian Why would they give Cecilia Blade+Raven? It's more likely that she'll get a 14-MT Raven-tome that also comes with either ATK Tactic 3 or RES Tactic 3 so she can run Triple Tactic like Titania or an ATK/RES +5 buff when within 2 spaces of a Sword or Tome ally (referencing her students Roy and Lilina, who with the exception of Love Abounds Roy (who has a bow for some reason) fall into one of those two categories).

Still, that's a nice Cecilia you've got there. Although, why did you give her SPD Tactic? That seems like it'd be better for one of her teammates to give her, if only for the +6 damage, unless you have someone with Hone Cavalry on the team with her?

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5 minutes ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Why would they give Cecilia Blade+Raven? It's more likely that she'll get a 14-MT Raven-tome that also comes with either ATK Tactic 3 or RES Tactic 3 so she can run Triple Tactic like Titania or an ATK/RES +5 buff when within 2 spaces of a Sword or Tome ally (referencing her students Roy and Lilina, who with the exception of Love Abounds Roy (who has a bow for some reason) fall into one of those two categories).

Still, that's a nice Cecilia you've got there. Although, why did you give her SPD Tactic? That seems like it'd be better for one of her teammates to give her, if only for the +6 damage, unless you have someone with Hone Cavalry on the team with her?

Because I don’t want to swap out of blade, and the more likely outcomes are lame and boring as all hell.

It’s more for the sake of the team because she kills stuff dead even without the +6, and when I need her to kill stuff dead, I’m using horses.

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12 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

You know, you literally could have shortened your post to just this, and you'd get the exact same point across. This line alone would have been better than your tl;dr at the end.

Probably. But it's not just future proofing I'm concerned with, the low resource & handicap thing is also a very real concern. If you look at my units basically none of them ever gets 5* exclusives that they don't start with, and I tend to prefer to run only 1 team even in modes like AA or Aether Raids where you're expected to have options. (For AA I basically build 7 near identical teams.)

 

Your rating doesn't account for that and it's right not to, since it's mostly targeted towards people with perfect resource access and willingness to do the optimal thing for the game mode, but mine is targeted towards low resource people and people who build teams with constraints that aren't imposed by the game itself. (There's nothing forcing me to use pretty much only 1 team for Aether Raids, or trying to beat everything with only my main team if I have the time, I just prefer to do that.)

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The reason I don't consider future-proofing at all in my calculation is because you don't know how the game designers will choose to "ruin" something in the future. You're under the assumption that it's not possible to target strong units without also targeting weaker units.

That's not exactly it, I meant that it's hard to target flexible units without also targeting less flexible units.

 

A unit that has stellar player phase, support, and enemy phase is far less affected than a targeted nerf to only one of the categories. Like, dazzle staves were a huge nerf to EP units, which Reinhardt was, because he has EP sets in TA Raven, -owl, and -blade CC vantage, but it hurt dedicated EP units a lot more because Reinhardt had other options. (And I think TA Raven and -blade CC both kill staves on player phase regardless.)

15 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

In the case of Reinhardt, you can easily target Dire Thunder (and a few other annoying things, like Desperation and Dazzling Staff) by implementing a "Deflect Magic Guard" skill similar to Close Guard and Distant Guard that applies Deflect Magic to nearby allies (instead of Close Def and Distant Def).

In the case of my two overkill units, you can nerf the unit with higher overkill without significantly affecting the unit with lower overkill by implementing a defensive skill that makes any damage more than 50 taken only deal 10 damage without affecting weaker attacks.

The problem with targeting Dire Thunder specifically is that Reinhardt isn't just Dire Thunder. He'll be worse without Dire Thunder, and so would other magical units that rely on hitting twice without counter, but he does have one shot builds and even 2 shot builds that involve taking a hit in between. (He can run QR CC sets, it's just expensive and not usually worth bothering with.) Personally I think Dire Thunder is balanced as a weapon, the problem is that it's a tome, meaning it gives its owner way too much flexibility in the weapon slot. Reinhardt has Type Buffs, Horse Mobility, Tome Access, Brave Weapon access, and they're all individually worth choosing a unit for, and the guy had all four of them at once. I think of Valentine Roy as a 8-9 unit, for example, even though he only dropped the Tome Access part, because dropping Tome Access does make Valentine Roy a lot less flexible.

 

Regarding nerfing the higher overkill vs. lower, the slightly higher rating I gave is based on the fact that, while it's possible to nerf them unequally, the equal nerfs will tend to have the higher overkill guy better off. (A flat 10 hp increase to everyone, for example, would affect the lower overkill more.) But that's only slight advantage, so only deserves a slightly higher rating.

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13 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

Your rating doesn't account for that and it's right not to, since it's mostly targeted towards people with perfect resource access and willingness to do the optimal thing for the game mode,

Um, no. I don't even have a rating system. I simply compare characters and options. There's no point in rating characters when I can explain the benefits of various options and let other players choose which option makes the most sense for them.

 

18 minutes ago, DehNutCase said:

That's not exactly it, I meant that it's hard to target flexible units without also targeting less flexible units.

That doesn't matter. At all.

You're not trying to target units as a whole. You're trying to target the aspects of the unit that are unbalanced. When people say to "nerf Reinhardt", they don't mean to nerf every single build that Reinhardt has; they really mean to nerf just a handful of builds that feel unbalanced.

If you are designing your nerfs properly and targeting the right things, then less flexible units simply won't be affected (or will be affected to a lesser extent) unless they also share the same aspects that were overpowered (in which case they also deserve to be nerfed at the same time because they would also, by definition, be overpowered in the same way).

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35 minutes ago, mampfoid said:

That's what I'll do with Cherche, good decision. Hrid doesn't need SPD in arena which saves his sister for some weeks though. 

I still cannot get over how pretty and elegant Cecilia is, and also how deadly. True lady and a general.

1 hour ago, ILikeKirbys said:

Why would they give Cecilia Blade+Raven?

Oh, I forgot to mention this when I was replying to you the first time.

They didn’t give Cherche an armour-effective axe when they gave her a new weapon, and the refinement to Ragnarok flipped Celica’s playstyle topsy-turvy. These are the two precedents that keep the hope in me that they might give Cecilia a more offensive option in addition to her more defensive approach in her base weapon.

(I know that the chance is zero because we already have Olwen and Gunnthrá for that, but come on, indulge me)

Edited by Vaximillian

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1 hour ago, Vaximillian said:

Now give Cecilia blade raven, Intsys. Don’t be cowards.

Book III might introduce more power creep, so I would ask for Earthsweep effect too on top of Blade Raven for good measure. What is this Earthsweep that I just completely made up? Unit can counter but enemy cannot! Totally not overpowered.

In the first year of the game, exclusive Weapons got one effect (Fensalir, Armads, etc.); second year, we got two per Weapon (Mjölnir, Fensalir [special], Berserk Armads, etc.); third year, we should continue tradition and demand 3 effects for exclusive Weapons.

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I gave feedback for the first time since the Ayra incident last year. Basically, I said that the player worshipping was really too much and that the OC's suffer for it, as seen in the recent Forging Bonds, and then I sent another post talking about the pacing issues and the shallow portrayal of the conflict and the characters. I don't think it'll help much but hey, at least I'll have tried making my voice heard.

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8 hours ago, Vaximillian said:

Why Renewal and not QR or a breaker? 37 Spd is not that good for killing people if you want her to kill people.
Also, awwwww.

L-lemme get a pillow of feathers :awesome:

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6 hours ago, XRay said:

third year, we should continue tradition and demand 3 effects for exclusive Weapons.

That would be nice, I'd love some good 3 effects on f2p units; Festival Micaiah's is still one of my favorites (even though I sadly don't have her) since it's atk+3/dual effectiveness/hardy bearing.

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That's interesting. There's an upcoming strategy RPG FF gacha that's coming soon in Japan. If it's a success I do hope Feh will try to be more innovative.

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