Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[XRay]

10 minutes ago, Vince777 said:

No, that is your definition, not "the" definition of what "player-friendly" means as that is that is rather subjective.

In most player's eyes, as long as a mode can be easily completed by free players, it is considered player friendly. How you complete it honestly does not matter as long as it does not involve spending too much Orbs.

Most players would agree that Grandmaster Tactics Drills are player friendly despite its huge difficulty spike, and lots of players used guides for those too. There is no difference between Abyssal content and Grandmaster Tactics Drills except that Abyssal content are basically larger puzzles that take even more time: the major difference is that there is an additional challenge of finding the right team in Abyssal instead of just being given a team.

[Landmaster]

9 hours ago, Vince777 said:

I'm a bit sad to see Blessed Gardens go because I felt it was the one game PvE content that made sense for a F2P player like myself with a wide variety of units amassed over the years, as far as difficulty goes (well that and Squad Assault). I worked hard to make sure all four elements had a varied and effective amount of units that could tackle most enemy unit combinations. Now, the blessings will mean nothing to me other than serve as a boost to SPP.

People talk about how all other PvE modes are F2P-friendly because some have demonstrated they can be beaten with only free units but that is complete bull. All the guides we see online required massive investment in time for those that put them up there, something most players aren't so ready to invest in such a game. To me, Abyssal maps, particularly those involving reinforcements, cannot be considered F2P-friendly at all.  I don't even bother trying them anymore without a guide.

Plenty of F2P players have no problem beating Abyssal maps with unmerged units. I only have three +10 units (all are in the 3-4* pool) and none of them have I needed to beat any Abyssal map. It's completely up to the player how much effort they choose to put into Abyssal maps. That doesn't make it not F2P friendly.

[Ice Dragon]

3 hours ago, Vince777 said:

Maybe I can also be told I could beat Bobby Fischer by reenacting a chess game he played in which he lost, by just copying the moves that were made against him. I guess I'm technically "playing chess" and "beating Bobby Fischer".

In Heroes, the opponent's actions are deterministic. Bobby Fischer's moves are not, so unless you can somehow force him to make the same moves as the game you are reenacting, that strategy will not work and the game against him cannot be considered player-friendly. If you do manage to beat him using this method, then yes, you can probably claim to have played chess and beat Bobby Fischer, but the probability of it working is likely zero without coercion.

The absolute determinism of the opponent's actions in Heroes when given a specific board state plays a key part in why the game can be considered player-friendly whereas playing chess against Bobby Fischer cannot.

[Jotari]

If I use a step by step guide I could probably best Thracia very easily (it's not deterministic but knowing exactly what to do and what's coming would still trivalize the game), yet I'd consider Thracia one of the furthest things from player friendly in existence.

[Quintessence]

To me Abyssal content is ok, and clearing it is satisfying. But the reward for clearing it is simply not worth the time and effort imo. If the rewards were orbs, feathers, coins, stones/dew or even a 5☆ of GHB units, then I'd be up for clearing it.

[EricaofRenais]

13 minutes ago, Quintessence said:

To me Abyssal content is ok, and clearing it is satisfying. But the reward for clearing it is simply not worth the time and effort imo. If the rewards were orbs, feathers, coins, stones/dew or even a 5☆ of GHB units, then I'd be up for clearing it.

That is how I feel as well.  I normally don't bother with abyssal content because it is not worth my time.  Though I am actually glad that there are no rewards I want tied to those maps since if there was I would have to clear them when I don't feel like it.  A 5* GHB unit would be a a fair reward for clearing the map and would be better then locking orbs to it.

[Icelerate]

On 04/05/2019 at 9:48 PM, Interdimensional Observer said:

Awakening, Fates, SoV, Seasonals, OCs, and Braves I can ignore.

I thought you like Braves. Also, you seem to be skipping the stories for the 3DS games and Heroes while not doing the same for Three Houses or the SNES games, why is that? 

[Xenomata]

29 minutes ago, Quintessence said:

To me Abyssal content is ok, and clearing it is satisfying. But the reward for clearing it is simply not worth the time and effort imo. If the rewards were orbs, feathers, coins, stones/dew or even a 5☆ of GHB units, then I'd be up for clearing it.

I disagree.

Ridiculous cosmetic accessories that have no actual impact on the gameplay of a game are ALWAYS the most important items of any video game ever made, and I will argue this point til the ends of time. And I will do it while wearing a block of cheese on my head.

Edited May 6, 2019 by Xenomata

[mampfoid]

10 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

I disagree.

Ridiculous cosmetic accessories that have no actual impact on the gameplay of a game are ALWAYS the most important items of any video game ever made, and I will argue this point til the ends of time. And I will do it while wearing a block of cheese on my head.

Golden cheese I hope. 

[Xenomata]

1 minute ago, mampfoid said:

Golden cheese I hope. 

Golden Provolone.

[mampfoid]

3 minutes ago, Xenomata said:

Golden Provolone.

On par with golden Grana, but slightly inferior to Platinum Gorgonzola. Impractical to dress in the summer though ... 

[Interdimensional Observer]

2 hours ago, Quintessence said:

To me Abyssal content is ok, and clearing it is satisfying. But the reward for clearing it is simply not worth the time and effort imo. If the rewards were orbs, feathers, coins, stones/dew or even a 5☆ of GHB units, then I'd be up for clearing it.

If the rewards were significantly better though, then the inability of lesser (FtP) players to handle them would be more criticizable. Since it'd be the rich getting richer while the poorer stay sadly deprived. 

 

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

If I use a step by step guide I could probably best Thracia very easily (it's not deterministic but knowing exactly what to do and what's coming would still trivalize the game), yet I'd consider Thracia one of the furthest things from player friendly in existence.

I'd use a more deterministic example: Advance War 1 Advanced (Hard) Campaign. Maps where the AI can produce units are relatively few in AW1, and the only other significant random issue is Fog of War. The AI itself is incredibly easy to manipulate- if you know how. And yet to the average player, as early as like the first Grit fight (I personally came within inches of losing it) the game can be relentlessly challenging.

 

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

I thought you like Braves

To summarize it, Braves are a weird thing.

They aren't Seasonal, and they aren't Alts on a standard banner units either. They've been pseudo-democratically chosen. Somehow, I accept the difference, perhaps because of the fact you get to choose a free one.

It isn't simply that I like the characters though and that they are free. Obviously I chose Hector for these two criterion. Yet Ike is only neutral for me as a character, and I put Seasonal Titania to the Gutenburg, despite me liking her as a character. It can't be simply because they are free by itself, since I am going to allow myself BraLyn now. But pragmatism isn't the answer either! If I were acting purely out of pragmatism, then I'd be using legions of characters who I aren't presently using at all nor intend to.

If they had chosen to make the CYL results Legendary alts or thrown them on standard New Heroes, I wouldn't have necessarily gone for them. Heck I'm never going to intentionally waste Orbs for the present Lector, and Like is lucky enough to have been a canonically justifiable alt plus a freebie.

 

1 hour ago, Icelerate said:

Also, you seem to be skipping the stories for the 3DS games and Heroes while not doing the same for Three Houses or the SNES games, why is that? 

It's a weird habit. I played through Awakening when it released, experiencing it is zenith with the Lucina as Chrom's daughter reveal, and everything afterwards being a gradual slope downwards for me. I read a handful of its Supports, though far, far, far from all of them. I bought most of the DLC, some going to waste pretty much. I never did recruit the kids though or do S Supports though, well most of them, my very last playthrough of like five or six of them tried to break the ice and swiped Kjelle and Noire (Project Make A Competent Non-Einherjar Awakening No Grind Bow Unit was a failure, even with trained parents she wasn't that good). Somehow I managed to clear Future Past on a Females Only run despite the unpaired kids- and I did read the entire plot of that.

Fates is where things began to go rather irrational and downhill for me. I hear when the game is released in Japan that the plot is worse than Awakening's, with Conquest's being the worst, despite statements made to the contrary on the part of the developers. Given Awakening's plot wasn't highly regarded at the time, this was a bad thing. For the sake of my own enjoyment of Fates, I thus somehow came to the conclusion I'd just skip the plot, which I have done on every run of every play. Nor I have I read a single Support line. I tried bending a little once with a child Paralogue or two, but I quickly snapped back to full rigidity. 

After all this, I began to use a great power of humanity described by Friedrich Nietzche- the power to forget. I try to forget Awakening, not that I really can, my memory is too good for that. But I choose to try to forget what I can of Awakening, and to keep out of Fates. And why? To remain "neutral" in the once-contentious arguments surrounding Awakening and Fates and their characters, and which still sometimes arise- see that perennial rose called the Lady of the Camillas.

My skipping of SoV is irrational in full, a carryover from Fates. I chose it apart from the Internet, before reading anything about SoV's plot online, but like Fates, my continued detachment from its plot and characters is most certainly influenced by contentious arguments online of things such as Alm's perfection and Celica's stupidity.

Could I develop my own opinions of things and still be neutral? Yes, I could. I try to be diplomatic all the time on the Internet, even when I have an opinion. I've been willing to leap and call Sephiran a something of pity-magnet even when that criticism of him or others has not been made, despite me still liking him. I just haven't.

Another issue is that I'd developed Imagined versions of certain characters, using what little secondhand I gather about them, which makes me hesitate to want to see their Real selves. Hinata, Odin, Leo, and Takumi all alike fall into this category. To know the Real risks destroying the Imagined, and there isn't a third who is Imagined yet Real who I can choose.

This is something of the problem which some Game of Thrones fans find themselves faced with now so I hear, as the show ends, their precious hypotheses are crumbling under the weight of the reality of how events play out in the show, and for a vocal minority of whiners, THE SHOW IS GODDAMN AWFUL! because of it. I wouldn't whine like this, although Gen 2 of Rune Factory 2 will forever be stung to me by the fact its opening movie shows both Aaron and Aria as twins when Kyle can only have one of them in the actual game. 

Furthermore, certain characters from afar I can tell I won't like at all. Nina and Soleil fall into this category. 

And to get a little more back on track, how would I handle a Genealogy or Binding Blade remake? Two games I've played that should eventually get remakes. Skip or no skip? Well Binding is already sorta low for me in narrative, so the only real direction it can go is up, so I'll likely watch it. Genealogy, well I like Gen 1, Gen 2 is okay, but a bit drab, generic, and safe, I'd think I'd still watch the story of its remake. And after playing Genealogy, I leaped into New Mystery, whose original I had played within two months prior. There, I felt the new Kris Prologue was bleh, but Kris's little thefts elsewhere weren't egregious. It was really more Kris steals + the lack of facial expression on Marth + a music downgrade and just overall presentation which has left me putting FE3B2 over FE12 in narrative. The Assassins subplot didn't do much for me, although its compact maps were benignly different.

Now how will I play 3H? As it stands, I put a 92.85% chance of yet again going for the skippy route. It did bleed over in Valkyria Chronicles 4 and Breath of the Wild after all. Yet I certainly wish I could get back to witnessing FE plots. The experience is a bit hollow as is, nobody to care for, no cause to pretend to fight for, but to enjoy the good, I have to experience the bumps of the bad. And for me, the school setting, the triple house split, and the avatar all raise flags. Just unseal the Eldritch Dragon/Evil Goddess beneath the school, have it destroy the place, and let me with everyone united against it kill the great foe.

...Oh, and why did I make the choice for not skipping the old FE plots when doing so with the new? Guess it's just a difference of eras, and me showing a receptiveness to the old, even when it has had its very aspects also subject to contentious argument. I went into FE4 fully aware of the contentions of Arvis (I'm no Kaga the #1 Arvis fanboy and father, but I wouldn't put him to a bonfire) and Lewyn (Gen 1 very good, Gen 2... Forseti- you ain't what I imagined you to be).

Edited May 6, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Othin]

I think shiny accessories are a perfect reward for Abyssal. They're more unique than getting a bit more of some resource you get some other regular way, and they mean people who don't beat Abyssal aren't missing out on anything practical, just cosmetic. It emphasizes that beating Abyssal is something you do for its own sake, for the achievement of going it, not to serve something else.

[Rezzy]

I notice that the +10 Compendium and Most Wanted Heroes threads are now pinned, but it seems that the thread's not looking all that cluttered.  Does anyone remember what threads got moved or unpinned?

[Ice Dragon]

5 hours ago, Jotari said:

yet I'd consider Thracia one of the furthest things from player friendly in existence.

If you can truly trivialize it, then can you explain why you don't consider it to be player-friendly?

Is it the (un)availability of guides to trivialize it? The UI? The platform? Not being as trivial as you say it is due to a lack of determinism?

Edited May 6, 2019 by Ice Dragon

[Interdimensional Observer]

3 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you can truly trivialize it, then can you explain why you don't consider it to be player-friendly?

 

I think what they mean here is without a guide it isn't friendly. Something can be easy if you really know what you're doing, but that doesn't preclude it being hard if you don't, nor does it preclude that because a player can know so much as to make it easy, that they will. And the harder it is know how to make something easy, the less player friendly/the harder that thing is.

It is less hard to know a Phoenix Down will 1HKO the Phantom Train in Final Fantasy VI, than it is to know that the Yggdrasil Core in Etrian Odyssey Untold has a script wherein it will always override attacking for healing it hits a certain HP threshold. Therefore, the Yggdrasil Core on this alone is harder (never mind it also is a superboss and the PT isn't).

Another case- Vagrant Story. The game is awful blind due to no forced tutorials, only a menu of long nightmares. But if you know to carry a good weapon of each Type, to apply the proper -Fusion spell, forget Class, equip a Shield and 1-Handed weapons, use a lot of Temper and Instill, and don't let your Chains/Risk get too high, the game is fairly easy.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Interdimensional Observer

[Jotari]

6 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you can truly trivialize it, then can you explain why you don't consider it to be player-friendly?

Is it the (un)availability of guides to trivialize it? The UI? The platform? Not being as trivial as you say it is due to a lack of determinism?

Oh I can't trivalize Thracia, that's the point. But if I get a guide telling me exactly where all the trap tiles are, where all the reinforcements come from, who I can recruit, how I can recruit them (oh you captured and released Shiva in Chapter 3x, welp now he's gone forever even though he's still alive), how to get to all the Gaidens, what the maps even look like in fog of war, where to get the good weapons and when to use them (never recruited that one Pegasus Knight because you need a sleep weapon to capture her which I had none of) then the game e can easily be trivalized. But it's not player friendly because the game isn't helping the player to know or do these things (an example of being player friendly would be putting a weapon that can inflict sleep in the same chapter I need to put an enemy to sleep to recruit them). If a game requires a guide for you to clear it, then it isn't player friendly, it's guide friendly.

Another, more extreme example, in Final Fantasy XII, in order to get the strongest weapon in the game, the zodiac Lance, you need to go to an optional dungeon and open a chest. However, if you open one of half a dozen other chests in the game,  inconspicuous chests placed directly in the player's path, then the Zodiac Lance will simply disappear. With a guide listing where these chests are it's easy to get the Zodiac Lance by just not opening the chests. But without a guide there is absolutely no indication that you've suddenly missed out on the strongest weapon in the game by opening a random chest, which once again is placed directly in the player's path which means virtually 100% of players will open. This is something trivalized with a guide (which is why I suspect they did it) but it is extremely unplayer friendly.

[Johann]

11 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Another case- Vagrant Story. The game is awful blind due to no forced tutorials, only a menu of long nightmares. But if you know to carry a good weapon of each Type, to apply the proper -Fusion spell, forget Class, equip a Shield and 1-Handed weapons, use a lot of Temper and Instill, and don't let your Chains/Risk get too high, the game is fairly easy.

Uh, Vagrant Story is definitely not a game you can call easy. A smooth New Game run requires thorough knowledge of the mechanics, gear system (forging and stats), item locations (including rare drops), attacks/skills, and a strong sense of timing. Lots of players get killed from being hit by new enemy attacks or spells that deals more damage than they have HP and they can't time their defensive skills because they can't anticipate the window for using it. I could handhold someone through that game on their first time and they'd still have a hard time.

Playing it blind on my own back when it came out and there  weren't any guides to turn to, I usually kept my HP lowish and chained Raging Ache, since it was the only way I knew to reliably deal more than single digit damage.

[Othin]

6 hours ago, Jotari said:

Oh I can't trivalize Thracia, that's the point. But if I get a guide telling me exactly where all the trap tiles are, where all the reinforcements come from, who I can recruit, how I can recruit them (oh you captured and released Shiva in Chapter 3x, welp now he's gone forever even though he's still alive), how to get to all the Gaidens, what the maps even look like in fog of war, where to get the good weapons and when to use them (never recruited that one Pegasus Knight because you need a sleep weapon to capture her which I had none of) then the game e can easily be trivalized. But it's not player friendly because the game isn't helping the player to know or do these things (an example of being player friendly would be putting a weapon that can inflict sleep in the same chapter I need to put an enemy to sleep to recruit them). If a game requires a guide for you to clear it, then it isn't player friendly, it's guide friendly.

Another, more extreme example, in Final Fantasy XII, in order to get the strongest weapon in the game, the zodiac Lance, you need to go to an optional dungeon and open a chest. However, if you open one of half a dozen other chests in the game,  inconspicuous chests placed directly in the player's path, then the Zodiac Lance will simply disappear. With a guide listing where these chests are it's easy to get the Zodiac Lance by just not opening the chests. But without a guide there is absolutely no indication that you've suddenly missed out on the strongest weapon in the game by opening a random chest, which once again is placed directly in the player's path which means virtually 100% of players will open. This is something trivalized with a guide (which is why I suspect they did it) but it is extremely unplayer friendly.

You can clear Thracia just fine without those things, just with needing some extra resets and missing a few characters.

[Jotari]

10 minutes ago, Othin said:

You can clear Thracia just fine without those things, just with needing some extra resets and missing a few characters.

 I'm not saying Thracia impossible to clear without a guide. I'm not even claiming its difficult. I've cleared. I love Thracia. What I'm saying is that the way it's designed is Player Unfriendly, which is something completely different.

[Interdimensional Observer]

7 hours ago, Jotari said:

Another, more extreme example, in Final Fantasy XII, in order to get the strongest weapon in the game, the zodiac Lance, you need to go to an optional dungeon and open a chest. However, if you open one of half a dozen other chests in the game,  inconspicuous chests placed directly in the player's path, then the Zodiac Lance will simply disappear. With a guide listing where these chests are it's easy to get the Zodiac Lance by just not opening the chests. But without a guide there is absolutely no indication that you've suddenly missed out on the strongest weapon in the game by opening a random chest, which once again is placed directly in the player's path which means virtually 100% of players will open. This is something trivalized with a guide (which is why I suspect they did it) but it is extremely unplayer friendly.

Whaaat? 

*Checks FF Wiki* Oh, IZJS got rid of this. Good to know for whenever I get around to XII Switch version.

 

38 minutes ago, Johann said:

Uh, Vagrant Story is definitely not a game you can call easy. A smooth New Game run requires thorough knowledge of the mechanics, gear system (forging and stats), item locations (including rare drops), attacks/skills, and a strong sense of timing. Lots of players get killed from being hit by new enemy attacks or spells that deals more damage than they have HP and they can't time their defensive skills because they can't anticipate the window for using it. I could handhold someone through that game on their first time and they'd still have a hard time.

Playing it blind on my own back when it came out and there  weren't any guides to turn to, I usually kept my HP lowish and chained Raging Ache, since it was the only way I knew to reliably deal more than single digit damage.

And there is insta-death enemies really late in the game from what I recall. 

I don't recall item locations mattering, but perhaps I am underestimating the amount of challenge I experienced playing the game once. With a guide starting around the point you leave the cellars and see the sky of Lea Monde for the first time, since everything beforehand was rough.

[Johann]

26 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Whaaat? 

*Checks FF Wiki* Oh, IZJS got rid of this. Good to know for whenever I get around to XII Switch version.

Was thinking about making a FFXII thread because that game is super fine. IZJS version and this re-release made massive improvements and the game is much friendlier to the player while also being more fun all-around (like high level magic not capping at 9999 damage and treasure chests being more unique and interesting). You can get that Zodiac Lance guaranteed as an optional reward too, though it it's not something made obvious so playing blind means you could certainly miss it.

26 minutes ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

And there is insta-death enemies really late in the game from what I recall. 

I don't recall item locations mattering, but perhaps I am underestimating the amount of challenge I experienced playing the game once. With a guide starting around the point you leave the cellars and see the sky of Lea Monde for the first time, since everything beforehand was rough.

The insta-death enemies appear like halfway through, as I recall. What's weird is that they're not particularly special or threatening otherwise, and they do die pretty easy. They just have that low chance of being like "oh hey, game over"

Item locations aren't a huge deal since there's not a lot of hidden stuff, but since getting more weapons, armor, and spells is important, if you miss any, you might be having a hard time. All enemies have rare drops too, which can include some extremely useful spells and weapons. You can even destroy training dummies over and over which have a Strength boosting item as a rare drop, and since Strength affects your physical offense and defense...

[Ice Dragon]

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

But it's not player friendly because the game isn't helping the player to know or do these things (an example of being player friendly would be putting a weapon that can inflict sleep in the same chapter I need to put an enemy to sleep to recruit them). If a game requires a guide for you to clear it, then it isn't player friendly, it's guide friendly.

A game doesn't need to hand-hold you through the game or make it easy or intuitive to 100% the game to be player-friendly.

Optional content that a player isn't expected to find without someone pointing it out to them (or doing the exploring themselves) doesn't make the game less player-friendly, and referencing a guide is something that I would consider as the default when going for a 100% clear.

 

8 hours ago, Jotari said:

Another, more extreme example, in Final Fantasy XII, in order to get the strongest weapon in the game, the zodiac Lance, you need to go to an optional dungeon and open a chest. However, if you open one of half a dozen other chests in the game,  inconspicuous chests placed directly in the player's path, then the Zodiac Lance will simply disappear. With a guide listing where these chests are it's easy to get the Zodiac Lance by just not opening the chests. But without a guide there is absolutely no indication that you've suddenly missed out on the strongest weapon in the game by opening a random chest, which once again is placed directly in the player's path which means virtually 100% of players will open. This is something trivalized with a guide (which is why I suspect they did it) but it is extremely unplayer friendly.

But if a player doesn't know it exists, is the player any worse off for it?

[Jotari]

45 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

A game doesn't need to hand-hold you through the game or make it easy or intuitive to 100% the game to be player-friendly.

Optional content that a player isn't expected to find without someone pointing it out to them (or doing the exploring themselves) doesn't make the game less player-friendly, and referencing a guide is something that I would consider as the default when going for a 100% clear.

 

But if a player doesn't know it exists, is the player any worse off for it?

You seem to be equating "not player friendly" as being "bad". That's not necessarily true at all. There's many different styles of games as there are players to play them. A game not being player friendly is fine. Hell that's one of my favourite things about Thracia.

2 hours ago, Interdimensional Observer said:

Whaaat? 

*Checks FF Wiki* Oh, IZJS got rid of this. Good to know for whenever I get around to XII Switch version.

Glad to hear it, because that was definitely bullshit an example of not being player friendly as being legitimately terrible design.

[Johann]

1 hour ago, Jotari said:

Glad to hear it, because that was definitely bullshit an example of not being player friendly as being legitimately terrible design.

I'm not sure that's the best example of being unfriendly to the player, given how it's a total game breaker if you follow a guide and get it early. Also it's not like missing it would prevent you from experiencing anything else in the game.