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3 hours ago, mampfoid said:

I'm sorry to see you disappointed, even if I think the Gunnthrá effect will help him to archive some faster kills. Saizos prf/refine seems better at first glance though. 

I like to way in and say. While yes Saizos effect is easier to use, Mathews effect has way more nuking power and makes him alot more bulky. afully buffed close counter Saizo can get +18 atk/spd/def/res difference( including a fully buffed enemy)

a fully buffed mathew can get way beyond 30 atk when attack a fully buffed enemy.

If we only take mordecai as a simple smite unit, mathew alkready initiates with +26 attack. And Mordecai only applys -4 to all stats. with +6 to all stats on mathew. If the enemy is fully buffed with just mathews dagger m, smoke skills and +6 to all his stats then we are looking at 32 additional raw power. thats kinda huge On top of the buffs to his defens and res which frees the slots for other units up to run drive or infantry breath skills.

Imho his refine looks mire potent then Saizos. Especially for a Vantage setup. no other dagger unit can reach this raw Attack power!!!!

 

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21 minutes ago, Hilda said:

I like to way in and say. While yes Saizos effect is easier to use, Mathews effect has way more nuking power and makes him alot more bulky. afully buffed close counter Saizo can get +18 atk/spd/def/res difference( including a fully buffed enemy)

a fully buffed mathew can get way beyond 30 atk when attack a fully buffed enemy.

If we only take mordecai as a simple smite unit, mathew alkready initiates with +26 attack. And Mordecai only applys -4 to all stats. with +6 to all stats on mathew. If the enemy is fully buffed with just mathews dagger m, smoke skills and +6 to all his stats then we are looking at 32 additional raw power. thats kinda huge On top of the buffs to his defens and res which frees the slots for other units up to run drive or infantry breath skills.

Imho his refine looks mire potent then Saizos. Especially for a Vantage setup. no other dagger unit can reach this raw Attack power!!!!

 

My friend is a Saizo fan, and ofc her Saizo is maxed merged at 5* and has his weapon refined. She told me that his dagger also has the Gunnthra effect , unwritted, and I've seen several YT comments about Saizo's dagger also have such effect. With how it stacks with the Bonus Doubler refine, meaning he actually has 30 atk bonus. 

Edited by DraceEmpressa

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1 hour ago, Hilda said:

I like to way in and say. While yes Saizos effect is easier to use, Mathews effect has way more nuking power and makes him alot more bulky.

I agree with the nuking part, but how does Matthew get more bulky, when Saizo can add DEF/RES debuffs to his own bulk? 

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2 hours ago, DraceEmpressa said:

My friend is a Saizo fan, and ofc her Saizo is maxed merged at 5* and has his weapon refined. She told me that his dagger also has the Gunnthra effect , unwritted, and I've seen several YT comments about Saizo's dagger also have such effect. With how it stacks with the Bonus Doubler refine, meaning he actually has 30 atk bonus. 

The unique refinement for Matthew's new dagger has the same description as Gunnthra's Blizzard and summer Lilina's Deku Leaf+ where it adds penalities to the user's attack.

Saizo's Star on the other hand has the same description as Bonus Doubler, but works off of the foe's penalties and individually adds each penalized, debuffed stat to Saizo's. So, at most, he could get +7 to a stat if the foe was hit by a -7 stat debuff. You could call it a Penalty Doubler.

No weapon or skill has an unwritten effect. That would be stupid and unfair to players fighting against them. Could you imagine how people would have reacted to Keaton and Meisterhardt if they were not told they could Brave on enemy phase much less any effect? Surprise! Forseti lets Lewyn do an immediate follow-up if he has the speed and is at >= 50% HP or Seliph refined Tyrfing Miracle shenanigans.

Man, this reminds me of that thread on the FEH subreddit where someone claimed that summer Lilina's weapon is the exact same as Legault's The Cleaner. Yes, because obviously bonuses = penalties. The closest thing to The Cleaner is Laegjarn's Niu where both add the foe's bonuses to the stats of the user. Specifically, The Cleaner adds it all to the user's attack and Niu adds 50% of all the foe's bonuses to all of Laegjarn's stats.

Edited by Kaden

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33 minutes ago, mampfoid said:

I agree with the nuking part, but how does Matthew get more bulky, when Saizo can add DEF/RES debuffs to his own bulk? 

Because his Team mates dont need to run Def or Res Tactics in their C or Seal slot for buffs. Mathew does that himself. which means they can run more drive skills. And Saizos effect for bulk can be removed by a simple dance, harsh command or cure. Granted Mathew can not reach Saizos Speed. But Matthew has more HP and slightly higher Res. It all depends on the situation. But Mathew is more likely to survive Rally/Harsh Command dance traps then Saizo. While Saizo is more bulky when faceing Panic Staves or Ploys

Also i would not be surprised if Saizos special refine becomes an A-skill. Happened so far with alomst all weapons (see Legendary Marth, Felicuas Plate, Brave Lyns weapon etc)

Edited by Hilda

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4 minutes ago, Hilda said:

Because his Team mates dont need to run Def or Res Tactics in their C or Seal slot for buffs. Mathew does that himself. which means they can run more drive skills. And Saizos effect for bulk can be removed by a simple dance, harsh command or cure. Granted Mathew can not reach Saizos Speed. But Matthew has more HP and slightly higher Res. It all depends on the situation. But Mathew is more likely to survive Rally/Harsh Command dance traps then Saizo. While Saizo is more bulky when faceing Panic Staves or Ploys

Ok, now I get it. With this setup Matthew would need to perform his first attack without DEF/RES buff though. 

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7 hours ago, XRay said:

I personally prefer +Def/Res on most of my Enemy Phase units, unless they got access to specific setups that gives them extreme bulk. BH!Ike lacks extreme bulk, so I went with +Def on mine.

Yeah, good point, since my RD Ike is +Def too and he does really well with it. So Brave Ike probably wants it too. Thanks!

7 hours ago, XRay said:

As always, it depends on the mode. +Atk is better in modes where the Spd of foes is low. +Spd is better in modes where Spd is high. 

I personally lean towards +Spd, as I prioritize Aether Raids and that mode has a lot of fast enemies.

Yeah, true. I'd be using her more on maps where enemy Spd is higher myself, so yeah, I guess I'll go with +Spd. Thanks again. 🙂

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6 hours ago, DraceEmpressa said:

Does it mean Speed Smoke is better than Defense Smoke?

Depends on the unit. Spd Smoke is generally more niche.

Player Phase nukes all want Def Smoke or Res Smoke depending on which stat they hit. Player Phase nukes with high Spd may also appreciate Spd Smoke.

Enemy Phase nukes all want Atk Smoke. Def/Res tanks however do NOT want Spd Smoke, as they depend on enemies to double them to activate a stronger Special. Spd tanks, however, do appreciate Spd Smoke.

6 hours ago, DraceEmpressa said:

 I'm also totally agree that on enemy phase units +def/+res is more preferable. I also much prefer units with high, balanced def and res, not only spd but atk is a price i'd pay for it, like most glass cannons have both res and def low but both atk and spd are high

Depends on the type of tank. Slow tanks are better off with +Def/Res. Tanks with decent Spd prefer +Spd to avoid doubles.

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42 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, good point, since my RD Ike is +Def too and he does really well with it. So Brave Ike probably wants it too. Thanks!

We had a similar discussion about this before with legendary kid Tiki.

CYL Ike can run a pure tanking build with Shield Pulse and either Aegis or Pavise thanks to Urvan's Killer effect reducing the cooldown and Deflect All reducing further damage from consecutive attacks and he comes with Steady Breath, so he should be able to charge either special with one hit. It's obviously not an ideal build for people, especially since you have to get Shield Pulse, a niche skill, from somewhere in the 5* pool and not good offensively, damage-wise as running his default Luna or Aether or by inheriting Bonfire or Ignis onto him.

Edited by Kaden

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3 minutes ago, Kaden said:

We had a similar discussion about this before with legendary kid Tiki.

 

But back then I was asking if I wanted +Atk or +Spd though, not +Atk or +Def. So, I'm a bit confused on what you're trying to tell me? I haven't merged my Brave Ikes yet though.

Edited by Anacybele

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10 hours ago, NSSKG151 said:

Haha, I see. I am kind of conservative with my grails since there are so many free units I would like to merge so I am willing to wait if I know there are free copies to get later down the line.

Yeah, I did have a stack of grails ready to get her to at least +9 but a couple weeks ago I really needed a high merged green unit to score well in Allegiance Battles and nobody on my friend's list had a good green unit to pair up with at the time so I decided to use my grails on Haar and got him up to +9 since he was going to be my merge project after Delthea anyways. So now I only have Delthea up to +4 (soon to be +5 in two weeks) and I guess I will have both Haar and Delthea be at +10 by the end of the year.

Yeah, I did consider waiting but I'd be so OCD about it and I don't really need the Grails for anyone else RN so I just went on ahead~

Haar's a pretty good unit, nice to see people building him up~ Having two Grails projects being able to get done at once is a good way to go about it~

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2 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

But back then I was asking if I wanted +Atk or +Spd though, not +Atk or +Def. So, I'm a bit confused on what you're trying to tell me? I haven't merged my Brave Ikes yet though.

It led up to a discussion about +Atk or +Def/+Res on enemy phase units between Ice Dragon and XRay and which CYL Ike is usually used as an enemy phase unit.

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Just now, Kaden said:

It led up to a discussion about +Atk or +Def/+Res on enemy phase units between Ice Dragon and XRay and which CYL Ike is usually used as an enemy phase unit.

Oh, right, yeah. Well, now I'm unsure again since one person is advising me to go +Def while you're saying +Atk...

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7 minutes ago, Anacybele said:

But back then I was asking if I wanted +Atk or +Spd though, not +Atk or +Def. So, I'm a bit confused on what you're trying to tell me? I haven't merged my Brave Ikes yet though.

It is boils down to two different viewpoints.

+Atk is better for maximizing damage output, assuming the tanks survives, cause no one is going to use a tank to tank things the tank can die from.

+Def is better for coverage. +Def is better for the tank to fight off colorless nukes and nukes of the same color. Without the +Def, colorless and same color nukes have an easier time killing your tank in two hits.

Edited by XRay

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Just now, XRay said:

It is boils down to two different viewpoints.

+Atk is better for maximizing damage output, assuming the tanks survives, cause no one is going to use a tank to tank things the tank can die from.

+Def is better for coverage. +Def is better for the tank to fight off colorless nukes and nukes of the same color. Without the +Def, colorless and same color nuke have an easier time killing your tank in two hits.

Yeah, and I'm still unsure which go to for now. Though I'm leaning towards +Def because I do like my Def tanks a lot and as I'd said, RD Ike has been able to kill even some blue units in one round with his +Def, as well as other colors.

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21 minutes ago, XRay said:

Slow tanks are better off with +Def/Res.

I'm of the opposite opinion where I find that +Def or +Res is typically unnecessary. Most enemy-phase units handle two hits at advantage against their stronger defensive stat with plenty of HP to spare as well as two neutral hits without too much difficulty.

Unless you're building specifically for Aether Raids or Abyssal maps (or for the AI to control), the extra bulk doesn't feel worth passing up on extra punching power.

That said, my viewpoint is heavily colored by the fact that I'm typically using +10 merged tanks who have significantly more bulk than +0 tanks. The higher you merge your tanks, the less helpful a defensive Asset is compared to an offensive one.

 

Note that exceptions do exist, though. A lot of ranged tanks do want a defensive Asset simply because their defensive stats are typically borderline.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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19 minutes ago, XRay said:

Depends on the unit. Spd Smoke is generally more niche.

Player Phase nukes all want Def Smoke or Res Smoke depending on which stat they hit. Player Phase nukes with high Spd may also appreciate Spd Smoke.

Enemy Phase nukes all want Atk Smoke. Def/Res tanks however do NOT want Spd Smoke, as they depend on enemies to double them to activate a stronger Special. Spd tanks, however, do appreciate Spd Smoke.

Depends on the type of tank. Slow tanks are better off with +Def/Res. Tanks with decent Spd prefer +Spd to avoid doubles.

Well, the unit in question is Summer Takumi with Brave Bow. 

well, I don't really like dual phased units and wants the extreme of both sides-glass cannons with no def and res and tanks with almost to no atk and spd, but I have a Fallen Tiki.

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Huh...just realized that if I happen to be pity broken by NY!Gunnthra while searching for Hríd in December, I can just give her Joint Hone Spd to Laslow. I'm half-tempted to do it anyway....but she's practically perfect IVs. 

I still need to decide on a new +10 green project that doesn't involve grails. Reysons aren't very forthcoming. My current grail project is going to be Xander and I'm working on Laslow as well. I also want to build up Klein.

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'm of the opposite opinion where I find that +Def or +Res is typically unnecessary. Most enemy-phase units handle two hits at advantage against their stronger defensive stat with plenty of HP to spare as well as two neutral hits without too much difficulty.

Unless you're building specifically for Aether Raids or Abyssal maps (or for the AI to control), the extra bulk doesn't feel worth passing up on extra punching power.

That said, my viewpoint is heavily colored by the fact that I'm typically using +10 merged tanks who have significantly more bulk than +0 tanks. The higher you merge your tanks, the less helpful a defensive Asset is compared to an offensive one.

I am assuming most players are building for performance and want to handle colorless and same color nukes somewhat decently. In my opinion, top of the line nukes are very difficult to tank, as you need to prevent their doubles with enough Spd or need a crazy amount of bulk to stomach their doubles.

Neutral A!Tiki +10 without any Res boosting can easily die to a neutral Lewyn +10 with Moonbow and Flashing Blade. With minimal Res stacking, at least A!Tiki will take heavy damage instead of dying.

1 hour ago, DraceEmpressa said:

Well, the unit in question is Summer Takumi with Brave Bow. 

For Brave Bow, whether it is slow Brave or quad attack Brave, +Atk is better vast majority of the time. There are certain cases where +Spd can be better for quad Braves, but those typically require Brazen Atk/Spd or Bonus Doubler (with 6/6 buffs) on the A slot and Brazen Atk/Def or Brazen Atk/Res on the Sacred Seal slot. With Brazen Atk/Spd now available on the Sacred Seal slot, I think +Atk is still better if you got double Brazen Atk/Spd.

Edited by XRay

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49 minutes ago, XRay said:

Neutral A!Tiki +10 without any Res boosting can easily die to a neutral Lewyn +10 with Moonbow and Flashing Blade. With minimal Res stacking, at least A!Tiki will take heavy damage instead of dying.

The Distant Def Sacred Seal is pretty standard on Tiki if she's intended to tank magic, and that's already sufficient for tanking Lewyn, assuming equal buffs. If she sticks with Lightning Breath+ (which is what she should be doing if she's intended to tank magic), the Res refine on it is also sufficient even with empty A and S slots.

Furthermore, Res is Tiki's lower defensive stat, not to mention is significantly lower to the point where it's considered unreliable (24 base is not reliable by any stretch of the imagination), which is not comparable to the current situation. Padding your weaker defense is different from padding your stronger defense for units with lopsided defenses, and even then, there are typically enough available options for padding your defenses with skills and teammates instead of using the Asset slot.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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6 hours ago, XRay said:

I am assuming most players are building for performance and want to handle colorless and same color nukes somewhat decently. In my opinion, top of the line nukes are very difficult to tank, as you need to prevent their doubles with enough Spd or need a crazy amount of bulk to stomach their doubles.

Neutral A!Tiki +10 without any Res boosting can easily die to a neutral Lewyn +10 with Moonbow and Flashing Blade. With minimal Res stacking, at least A!Tiki will take heavy damage instead of dying.

For Brave Bow, whether it is slow Brave or quad attack Brave, +Atk is better vast majority of the time. There are certain cases where +Spd can be better for quad Braves, but those typically require Brazen Atk/Spd or Bonus Doubler (with 6/6 buffs) on the A slot and Brazen Atk/Def or Brazen Atk/Res on the Sacred Seal slot. With Brazen Atk/Spd now available on the Sacred Seal slot, I think +Atk is still better if you got double Brazen Atk/Spd.

Well, my tanks are mostly the armor dragons except Duma , and Caineghis, because they had balanced Def /Res. I also pulled a Fallen Berkut because he has  both Def and Res high.

Too late, when I pulled 11 copies of him last year I already asked the forum which should be the base, te +atk or the +spd one and most answered +spd so off me to merge the 10 into the +spd one......

He now have Atk/Spd Bond, Solo, Brazen, Swift Sparrow and Life and Death, I already feed him Swift Sparrow 3 and I do plan to feed  him the new Brazen Atk Spd 4. I also have a Legendary Azura with Hone Atk 4 to boost his stats further. 

Still, which smoke skill would be better on him, Def Smoke or Spd Smoke?

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9 hours ago, Anacybele said:

Yeah, and I'm still unsure which go to for now. Though I'm leaning towards +Def because I do like my Def tanks a lot and as I'd said, RD Ike has been able to kill even some blue units in one round with his +Def, as well as other colors.

I'm just pointing out another view point. It's up to you what you want to do with your units. For example, with vanguard Ike, his sustain is really good with his Radiant Aether and default Warding Breath quickening his ability to charge it on enemy phase. +Def or +Res would let him tank better, but +Atk would be great too, especially if you run Special Spiral or Wrath to maximize as much damage and also to help with sustain when he lands a Radiant Aether. Once again, I'm not telling you to change your vanguard Ike, instead, I'm just bringing up another perspective.

9 hours ago, silverserpent said:

I still need to decide on a new +10 green project that doesn't involve grails. Reysons aren't very forthcoming. My current grail project is going to be Xander and I'm working on Laslow as well. I also want to build up Klein.

+10 Bartre. You know it to be your destiny to join the beef club. Or join me and others with a +10 Soren.

What are you looking for in a green merge project? That would narrow things down.

8 hours ago, XRay said:

For Brave Bow, whether it is slow Brave or quad attack Brave, +Atk is better vast majority of the time. There are certain cases where +Spd can be better for quad Braves, but those typically require Brazen Atk/Spd or Bonus Doubler (with 6/6 buffs) on the A slot and Brazen Atk/Def or Brazen Atk/Res on the Sacred Seal slot. With Brazen Atk/Spd now available on the Sacred Seal slot, I think +Atk is still better if you got double Brazen Atk/Spd.

Although recent and on a seasonal unit, Swift Sparrow 3 would be another option as well for +Spd Braves, right?

On another topic, unique refined Durandal is the closest to a weapon having two of the same effects. By that, I mean Durandal could have had Death Blow 3 as its refined effect and Death Blow 3 as its unique refinement instead of Swift Sparrow 2. In a way, you could say it has Death Blow 3 and Death Blow 2 in addition to Darting Blow 2. Anyway, I wonder if we'll ever see a weapon with two duplicate effects on it as impractical or maybe practical as it may be. Ashnard should totally have Gurgurant with double Death Blow 3, Death Blow 3 or 4 as his A passive, and they should introduce Death Blow 3 by then.

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8 minutes ago, Kaden said:

I'm just pointing out another view point. It's up to you what you want to do with your units. For example, with vanguard Ike, his sustain is really good with his Radiant Aether and default Warding Breath quickening his ability to charge it on enemy phase. +Def or +Res would let him tank better, but +Atk would be great too, especially if you run Special Spiral or Wrath to maximize as much damage and also to help with sustain when he lands a Radiant Aether. Once again, I'm not telling you to change your vanguard Ike, instead, I'm just bringing up another perspective.

Yeah, I see. I've not pulled a +Atk RD Ike, but yeah. I understand.

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17 minutes ago, Kaden said:

On another topic, unique refined Durandal is the closest to a weapon having two of the same effects. By that, I mean Durandal could have had Death Blow 3 as its refined effect and Death Blow 3 as its unique refinement instead of Swift Sparrow 2. In a way, you could say it has Death Blow 3 and Death Blow 2 in addition to Darting Blow 2. Anyway, I wonder if we'll ever see a weapon with two duplicate effects on it as impractical or maybe practical as it may be. Ashnard should totally have Gurgurant with double Death Blow 3, Death Blow 3 or 4 as his A passive, and they should introduce Death Blow 3 by then.

If you switch the weapon base effect with the characters' base A skills, both Bartre and Eldigan have double Fury weapons.

 

18 minutes ago, Kaden said:

+10 Bartre. You know it to be your destiny to join the beef club. Or join me and others with a +10 Soren.

What are you looking for in a green merge project? That would narrow things down.

@silverserpent

I, too, will vouch for Bartre. One of my friends swears upon his Bartre as his Surtr killer.

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17 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

If you switch the weapon base effect with the characters' base A skills, both Bartre and Eldigan have double Fury weapons.

But it's not together in text form! That's what makes it amusing. Seriously though, they should give Gurgurant double Death Blow because why not and for shits and giggles. Gurgurant: "16 Mt. If unit initiates combat, grants Atk+6 during combat. If unit initiates combat, grants Atk+6 during combat." It'd mess with people who thinking the text was repeated by accident, but boom! Atk+12 when Ashnard initiates.

17 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I, too, will vouch for Bartre. One of my friends swears upon his Bartre as his Surtr killer.

I need two more copies of Bartre and I'd be able to +10 him.

@silverserpent, considering his axe's unique refinement is Fury 3, he comes with Fury 3, and he has a speed superasset, consider a +Spd Bartre as well. +Atk scales better against armors and probably him being able to one shot people, but with +Spd and Fury 6, he will have 35 total speed; 25 neutral + 4 speed superasset + 6 Fury 6 = 35. Man's going to bleed like Eldigan and Hinata, but like them, they can be deceptively fast.

Edited by Kaden

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