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36 minutes ago, Othin said:

Well, you have a choice. You can either make sure you're prepared to stomp these maps with relative ease, you can go in unprepared and clear them anyway after a bit of work, or you can just pass on the highest difficulty levels of them. Where's the problem?

And no, it's not a 1 day time limit. Oliver's map is up for a full week. I think it might be that they'll all end at the end of that week, which would mean only 3 days for the last one? Which is a bit annoying, but it's still plenty more lenient than 1 day.

PM1's strategies are generally not very resource intensive, and I think that'll be especially true for these maps since the enemy strength is not particularly high. If you have the most important Sacred Seals and some decent 4* fodder, you're in a pretty good spot. New players may not be up to it immediately, but again, I think it's fine for them to have something to work up to.

36 minutes ago, Othin said:

Every other Hero Battle type so far has been recycled, I think it's pretty likely that these will return at some point as well.

I misheard the time limit, and a week is definitely more reasonable.

The problem is that we already have a huge resource gap problem between new players and veteran players. LHBs so far also seems to completely shutdown Player Phase teams outside of Galeforcers. Players are forced to use Enemy Phase teams and Enemy Phase teams cost a lot more to build.

Pheonixmaster1's strategies are generally pretty affordable, but it might not be for newer players depending on the guide. Sometimes he needs to use 5* units and that will cost players 20,000 Feathers. 20,000 Feathers is no issue for you and me who can choose to save or spend on a whim, but it is expensive for players who are still building up their Barracks and are in the process of reaching the end game.

36 minutes ago, Othin said:

Sure, but this is a tactics game we're talking about. It's fine for it to reward good tactics.

I haven't scored enough for another gold throne in a while, but I currently have 15.

There is a difference between rewarding good tactics and rewarding things based on stupid arbitrary requirements. Modes with a heavy emphasis on scoring like Arena and stupid restrictions like using a specific movement team are just kind of dumb in my opinion.

36 minutes ago, Othin said:

Altina is a valid unit for LHBs that allow Radiant Dawn units, which is what the hardest map of this batch will do. In the long term, most of them won't, but my reason for bringing up Altina isn't to say "use Altina", it's to say that she's an example of the sorts of units that can carry a lot of the weight in these battles with little to no investment.

Not every game has an Altina that people can rely on. Sacred Stones does not have anyone that is free or in the 3*/4* pool on the level of Altina in my opinion, and they have to deal with FV!F!Robin's map that is extremely restrictive terrain wise and got enemy reinforcements coming from all sides. Their only healer is also 5* exclusive and is a freaking armor unit with low movement.

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3 minutes ago, XRay said:

I misheard the time limit, and a week is definitely more reasonable.

The problem is that we already have a huge resource gap problem between new players and veteran players. LHBs so far also seems to completely shutdown Player Phase teams outside of Galeforcers. Players are forced to use Enemy Phase teams and Enemy Phase teams cost a lot more to build.

We already went over this. "Can't use all-in Player Phase teams" does not imply "must use optimized Enemy Phase Team". Not even close.

5 minutes ago, XRay said:

Pheonixmaster1's strategies are generally pretty affordable, but it might not be for newer players depending on the guide. Sometimes he needs to use 5* units and that will cost players 20,000 Feathers. 20,000 Feathers is no issue for you and me who can choose to save or spend on a whim, but it is expensive for players who are still building up their Barracks and are in the process of reaching the end game.

Units you upgrade for a PM1 strat are units you get to keep with you in doing the rest of the stuff in the game.

6 minutes ago, XRay said:

There is a difference between rewarding good tactics and rewarding things based on stupid arbitrary requirements. Modes with a heavy emphasis on scoring like Arena and stupid restrictions like using a specific movement team are just kind of dumb in my opinion.

I don't like Arena's specific restrictions because I don't like how you have to mess with your builds to get points, but I think it's fun being pushed to choose from a subset of units and having to do new kinds of tactics and teambuilding.

9 minutes ago, XRay said:

Not every game has an Altina that people can rely on. Sacred Stones does not have anyone that is free or in the 3*/4* pool on the level of Altina in my opinion, and they have to deal with FV!F!Robin's map that is extremely restrictive terrain wise and got enemy reinforcements coming from all sides. Their only healer is also 5* exclusive and is a freaking armor unit with low movement.

Sacred Stones doesn't have an Altina, but it does have some solid units like Duo Ephraim. And it's against the Alm/Celica BHB, not the Robin LHB. It seems like legendary/mythic battles will be allowing two games rather than one.

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31 minutes ago, Othin said:

We already went over this. "Can't use all-in Player Phase teams" does not imply "must use optimized Enemy Phase Team". Not even close.

You do not need to use an optimized team, but it is going to take a lot longer than necessary.

Having A slot Breath and B slot Quick Riposte is not even close to being optimal either, and that is just to get them on to the same level of effectiveness as Fury-Desperation.

31 minutes ago, Othin said:

Units you upgrade for a PM1 strat are units you get to keep with you in doing the rest of the stuff in the game.

They stick with us forever, but there is usually a more lenient time frame on when to get those units.

31 minutes ago, Othin said:

I don't like Arena's specific restrictions because I don't like how you have to mess with your builds to get points, but I think it's fun being pushed to choose from a subset of units and having to do new kinds of tactics and teambuilding.

I am personally not a fan of it. I am fine with it if it is once in a while and it is permanent so it does not really affect game progression, like Drills or Gardens, but doing it every single day is a drag and it just is not fun. Even with Aether Raids, my favorite PvP mode, we still have to carry around a stupid Mythic like Naga, and if the player wants to get a Gold Throne, they better carry a stupid bonus unit too.

31 minutes ago, Othin said:

Sacred Stones doesn't have an Altina, but it does have some solid units like Duo Ephraim. And it's against the Alm/Celica BHB, not the Robin LHB. It seems like legendary/mythic battles will be allowing two games rather than one.

I have all Ephraims, all Eirikas, and all Myrrhs. Not every players can afford those 5* exclusive units. At least Altina is free despite its short availability.

For players without access to 5* exclusive units, the best I can think of so far is to maybe have Galeforcers like Valter and Joshua, or have Joshua tank things and try to heal with Noontine/Sol.

Edited by XRay

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8 hours ago, XRay said:
 

You do not need to use an optimized team, but it is going to take a lot longer than necessary.

Having A slot Breath and B slot Quick Riposte is not even close to being optimal either, and that is just to get them on to the same level of effectiveness as Fury-Desperation.

 

They stick with us forever, but there is usually a more lenient time frame on when to get those units.

 

I am personally not a fan of it. I am fine with it if it is once in a while and it is permanent so it does not really affect game progression, like Drills or Gardens, but doing it every single day is a drag and it just is not fun. Even with Aether Raids, my favorite PvP mode, we still have to carry around a stupid Mythic like Naga, and if the player wants to get a Gold Throne, they better carry a stupid bonus unit too.

I have all Ephraims, all Eirikas, and all Myrrhs. Not every players can afford those 5* exclusive units. At least Altina is free despite its short availability.

For players without access to 5* exclusive units, the best I can think of so far is to maybe have Galeforcers like Valter and Joshua, or have Joshua tank things and try to heal with Noontine/Sol.

L'Arachel isn't 5* exclusive, and she just did a big chunk of the legwork for my clear of the second LHB. (Accompanied by Super Eirika, Duo Ephraim, and Myrrh, and the two melee units barely did anything other than use movement assists.)

It really doesn't take that much.

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10 hours ago, XRay said:
 

 

I have all Ephraims, all Eirikas, and all Myrrhs. Not every players can afford those 5* exclusive units. At least Altina is free despite its short availability.

For players without access to 5* exclusive units, the best I can think of so far is to maybe have Galeforcers like Valter and Joshua, or have Joshua tank things and try to heal with Noontine/Sol.

So? Sometimes its nice to also reward the longtime players. Doesnt mean others catn clear the content either.

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2 hours ago, Othin said:

L'Arachel isn't 5* exclusive, and she just did a big chunk of the legwork for my clear of the second LHB. (Accompanied by Super Eirika, Duo Ephraim, and Myrrh, and the two melee units barely did anything other than use movement assists.)

It really doesn't take that much.

I spent about maybe 10 to 20 minutes with Myrrh baiting the mages, and then have DM!Ephraim and Ross tank and Galeforce'd the rest. Eirika did not do much besides providing buffs.

It does not take much effort with fully built units, but that is not going to be the same for other players. I have Myrrh to get the ball rolling, but not everyone has her. L'Arachel is not going to have enough Spd and Res to tank both the green and blue mage unless she is highly merged or something.

54 minutes ago, Hilda said:

So? Sometimes its nice to also reward the longtime players. Doesnt mean others catn clear the content either.

Rewarding long time players should not have to mean excluding new players. We already have a huge resource gap just from quests, events, and weekly PvP modes. We already have a lead of well over 5,000 Orbs and 3 million Feathers over a new player who started recently. That gap would only keep increasing as time goes on. We should be slowing the widening of that gap whenever possible, not accelerating it.

We veterans have full Barracks and 3 years worth of accumulated resources at our disposal to solve everything the game throws at us. The game needs to be generous to new players, not us.

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Thinking over my current roster and notable units for each role (melee/ranged for each color, staff, dancer) in each game:

Heroes: Lif, NY Anna, Fjorm, Surtr, Thrasir, Eir, Veronica, Peony

FE1/3: Astram, Gharnef, Hardin, Nagi, Merric, Dark Tiki, Summer Linde, Maria

FE2: Brave Alm, Celica, Valbar, Dark Delthea, Valentine's Alm, Sonya, Duma, Leon, Valentine's Silque, Soiree Rinea

FE4: Larcei, Arvis, Quan, Ishtar, Ced, Legendary Leif, Ethlyn, Lene

FE5: Dark Mareeta, Reinhardt, Osian, Legendary Leif, Nanna, Soiree Ishtar

FE6: Brave Roy, Sophia, Spring Narcian, Brunnya, Fae, Cecilia, Klein, Clarine

FE7: Halloween Hector, Canas, Brave Hector, Summer Lyn, Legendary Hector, Winter Jaffar, Brave Lyn, Priscilla, Bride Ninian

FE8: Halloween Myrrh, Summer Tana, Duo Ephraim, L'Arachel, Brave Ephraim, Winter Eirika, Tethys

FE9: Black Knight, Valentine's Titania, Oscar, Halloween Ilyana, Brave Ike, Bride Sanaki, Halloween Rolf

FE10: Altina, Dancer Micaiah, Naesala, Micaiah, Ranulf, Yune, Caineghis, Sothe, Halloween Mia, Reyson 

Awakening: Tiki A, Tharja, Naga, Legendary Chrom, Grima M, Robin F, Grima F, Virion, Lissa, PA Inigo

Fates: Keaton, Picnic Flora, Hinoka, Summer Corrin F, Kaden, Spring Camilla, Dark Corrin F, Super Hinoka, Elise, Legendary Azura

Three Houses: Byleth M, Dimitri, Edelgard, Kronya, Mercedes 

TMS: Itsuki 

This helps highlight some gaps in my current lineup, I'll be keeping an eye out for chances to close some of them. 

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15 hours ago, XRay said:
3 hours ago, XRay said:

We veterans have full Barracks and 3 years worth of accumulated resources at our disposal to solve everything the game throws at us. The game needs to be generous to new players, not us.

Even with Aether Raids, my favorite PvP mode, we still have to carry around a stupid Mythic like Naga, and if the player wants to get a Gold Throne, they better carry a stupid bonus unit too.

 

Preach.

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7 hours ago, XRay said:

We veterans have full Barracks and 3 years worth of accumulated resources at our disposal to solve everything the game throws at us. The game needs to be generous to new players, not us.

New players have 3 years worth of permament content to chew through, their income far outstrips that of veterans until they finish the hundreds of story chapter, paralogues, chain challenges, squad assaults, etc. while participating in the weekly and monthly events, training tower and other miscellaneous quests, completing the GHB/BHB reruns that veterans have already completed.

They will never be able to fully catch up to veterans, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It may even be a good thing, if it means they are immune to the emotional manipulation that makes people spend thousands of dollars to "win" at a hamster-wheel mobile phone game.

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25 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

New players have 3 years worth of permament content to chew through, their income far outstrips that of veterans until they finish the hundreds of story chapter, paralogues, chain challenges, squad assaults, etc. while participating in the weekly and monthly events, training tower and other miscellaneous quests, completing the GHB/BHB reruns that veterans have already completed.

They will never be able to fully catch up to veterans, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. It may even be a good thing, if it means they are immune to the emotional manipulation that makes people spend thousands of dollars to "win" at a hamster-wheel mobile phone game.

Some additional factors resulting from this:

  • While new players miss out on past temporary resources, they get chances to use the permanent resources more effectively than players who obtained and spent those resources more effectively. Like, I spent so many orbs from early on on shitty Gen 1 banners, new players get to put the orbs they do get into banners packed with much higher-power units. This doesn't remove the gap, but it does help make it smaller than the raw numbers suggest.
  • Before new players catch up on permanent content, some temporary challenge content is likely to slip through the cracks no matter how it's handled.

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3 hours ago, Baldrick said:

New players have 3 years worth of permament content to chew through, their income far outstrips that of veterans until they finish the hundreds of story chapter, paralogues, chain challenges, squad assaults, etc. while participating in the weekly and monthly events, training tower and other miscellaneous quests, completing the GHB/BHB reruns that veterans have already completed.

They do have a higher resource inflow, but they also have a higher resource outflow as they need to build their Barracks up from scratch, so their disposable income is still much less.

3 hours ago, Othin said:
  • While new players miss out on past temporary resources, they get chances to use the permanent resources more effectively than players who obtained and spent those resources more effectively. Like, I spent so many orbs from early on on shitty Gen 1 banners, new players get to put the orbs they do get into banners packed with much higher-power units. This doesn't remove the gap, but it does help make it smaller than the raw numbers suggest.

A lot of gen I units are still worth using, and a lot of them are still top tier. Celica is still outright bonkers. BB!Cordelia is the third best colorless archer in the game, with only Eleonora and SK!Alm outclassing her in total Atk/Spd. All the first year CYL units besides BH!Lyn have important unique niches to fill, and BH!Lyn is still pretty good. And that is just the 5* exclusive units.

Tharja, Tailtiu, Nino, and Klein are really strong nukes. All the Dancers/Singers are still really good. All the staff cavalry can still oppress opponents with Pain and Panic. Eliwood is almost on par with BH!Roy now. M!Corrin is a top tier support unit. Reinhardt is still a really powerful crutch. Cordelia is one of the best Galeforcers, and top of her class. Cherche is also the top of her class. Raven is superior to the latest infantry axe units for Player Phase builds as he can match them in Atk/Spd, and his low BST is a blessing since he does not have the stupid high bulk that later units have so he can more effectively use Wings of Mercy. The White Wings are a little more niche, but they are top notch for Røkkr Sieges.

Even less meta gen I units can still hold their own in combat or have really niche support roles. Practically any gen I mage with decent Atk can go toe to toe with the latest mages by virtue of Blade tomes existing. The dragon lolis are still pretty good for PvE content. Lyn is on par with gen III sword infantry. Lukas is a solid Def tank. Azama and Wrys occupy a convenience niche of training other units due to their pathetic Atk. Anyone that does not have pathetic Atk is pretty much usable in combat, and for ones that do, they often Refinements that help address that issue.

Edited by XRay

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Edit: Did not mean to post this yet. Incomplete.

Edit 2: Okay, finished.

21 hours ago, XRay said:

Raven is superior to the latest infantry axe units for Player Phase builds as he can match them in Atk/Spd, and his low BST is a blessing since he does not have the stupid high bulk that later units have so he can more effectively use Wings of Mercy.

I feel like it's less of BST problem and more of a stat distribution problem which itself is/was kind of a problem with axe infantry in general. Before the end of gen 3, the axe infantry that were introduced were mainly high attack, middling to low speed, high or average defense, and usually low resistance units and that was already what most of the launch axe infantry were.

The launch axe infantry being Anna, Arthur, Bartre, Barst, Hawkeye, and Raven. Anna and Raven stood out with their speed, but before skill inheritance was introduced, Raven's speed was hampered by having Brave Axe be his default axe and Anna's attack is average at best. Anna and Hawkeye stood out with their resistance which to this day still remains high for axe infantry.

Spoiler

Anna: 42/29/38/22/28

Arthur: 43/32/29/30/24

Bartre: 49/36/25/33/13

Barst: 46/33/32/30/17

Hawkeye: 45/33/22/28/30

Raven: 41/34/35/25/22

Then we got spring Chrom, Legion, summer adult Tiki, summer Xander. Spring Chrom and summer Xander were like Barst while summer adult Tiki was like Arthur if he dumped HP for attack. Legion stood out as the second high offenses axe infantry with his 36/35 offenses, but being a GHB unit meant he had no access to assets and banes.

Spoiler

Spring Chrom: 43/35/32/28/20

Legion: 46/36/35/22/18

Summer adult Tiki: 35/36/30/32/24

Summer Xander: 43/32/30/36/16

Gen 2 introduced CYL Ike, PA Azura, Dorcas, Linus, Libra, and Helbindi. Stat-wise, still more of the same except for PA Azura who as a refresh unit, her combat isn't that important. PA Azura became the third fastest axe infantry under Anna, Legion, and Raven and she has decent resistance compared to the others. CYL Ike would later become a monster and Libra and Helbindi mixed things up with their mixed bulk with Helbindi currently having the highest resistance for axe infantry. Linus I feel is a special case in that because he shared Basilikos with Raven, he was fast compared to the other axe infantry at the time, but not having access to assets and banes hurt him as offensively, he is like a +Atk, -Spd where Raven would be easier to merge and wouldn't have to deal with -Spd. The merge update definitely helped him to close the gap in speed and give him a bit more of an edge in attack. HP, Atk, and Spd being his highest level 1 stats meant he would get +5 to them when merged, so in the end compared to a +Atk Raven, he trades 1 Spd for 1 Atk instead of matching +Atk Raven in attack, but being behind 2 points in speed.

Spoiler

PA Azura: 35/32/34/20/28

Dorcas: 45/35/23/35/24

Helbindi: 44/35/18/35/31

Libra: 40/35/32/28/29

Linus: 42/37/33/32/19

Gen 3 introduced summer Ylgr, Edelgard, and Hilda. Summer Ylgr was the third or fourth high offenses axe infantry depending on how you viewed Linus's 37/33 offenses before unique refined Basilkos, but like Legion, she had no access to assets and banes. Raven continued to be the offensive axe infantry when he can have 37/35 offenses with +Atk or 34/38 with +Spd. Edelgard stat-wise is more of the same of another high attack, middling speed axe infantry, but function-wise, she's an axe infantry version of legendary Ephraim, so if she can avoid Null Follow-Up effects, her speed doesn't really matter. Hilda is the game changer with her 37/37 neutral offenses. Hilda was the second summonable high offenses axe infantry after Raven and the first axe infantry to finally challenge Anna in base speed being 1 point off with =Spd and exceeding Anna with +Spd.

Spoiler

Edelgard: 41/39/30/37/21

Hilda: 43/37/37/28/23

Summer Ylgr: 42/35/36/30/25

Hilda could be considered the point where gen 4 started to do things differently with axe infantry aside from actually introduce them. First, is we started to get more axe infantry with speed and second, we started to get more axe infantry with good mixed bulk or at least decent resistance. Because of the high BST of gen 4 melee infantry, they overlapped a bit. Gen 4 so far introduced Gerik, Ross, Echidna, Osian, Alm & Celica, Annette, and Rinkah. Six of the seven so far have >= 36 base neutral Spd where Alm & Celica and Rinkah have higher base neutral speed than Anna. Defensively, Annette ties with Hawkeye for second-highest resistance and Rinkah became the first axe infantry to have >= 40 base neutral defense.

Spoiler

Alm & Celica: 40/35/40/32/25

Annette: 40/39/36/28/30

Echidna: 45/34/36/30/27

Gerik: 47/37/36/30/22

Osian: 42/35/36/33/27

Rinkah: 40/34/39/41/18

Ross: 47/38/31/32/24

The thing with stat distribution is that gen 4 yet to introduce a Karla or Lon'qu. Someone with average at best defenses, but high everything else which considering the amount of points gen 4 melee infantry can play with, could result in something terrifying. The closest would be Gerik and previously, Hilda, and previously before Hilda, Legion.

If Raven had gen 3 or gen 4 BST, I figure his stats would be like Hilda's. Her stats are increments of his; +2/+3/+2/+3/+1 and the extra points as a gen 4 could just be dumped into his HP and resistance. Something like 44/37/37/28/26. Or to make him stand out more, he could have more speed than attack. So, 44/35/40/28/26 which is taking 4 points of defense from Alm & Celica's stat spread and shifting it over to HP. Regardless, his defenses wouldn't be that high and L&D3 from unique refined Basilkos help keep it low for Wings of Mercy. With unique refined Basilikos, 47/63/47/18/16 or 47/61/50/18/16 compared to Raven's actual stats of 44/60/45/14/12 with the same setup.

Linus probably something like 46/39/35/34/19. 49/65/45/24/9 with unique refined Basilikos and L&D3.

Edited by Kaden

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4 hours ago, XRay said:

They do have a higher resource inflow, but they also have a higher resource outflow as they need to build their Barracks up from scratch, so their disposable income is still much less.

Their higher usage of resources is still offset by the fact that the value of the things they're getting from those resources is going to be higher. Building a competent barracks from scratch requires far fewer resources to do now than it did at launch. Banners have free pulls and many have higher 5-star summon rates than at launch. New units have more coherent default skill sets that don't require much or sometimes any skill fodder to make competent. With refines being added to older units, even the 3- and 4-star summon pools have a large number of endgame-viable units to pull, many of which don't require significant investment to make competent, and many of which you highlighted in your own post.

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5 hours ago, XRay said:

They do have a higher resource inflow, but they also have a higher resource outflow as they need to build their Barracks up from scratch, so their disposable income is still much less.

Without spending a single orb, new players can obtain Brave Veronica, Eir, Fjorm, Peony, Reinhardt, Ninian, Xander, Mage Eirika and Brave Ike. There are many useful units that are 3-4 star, and so are effectively free as you will pull a copy sooner or later - the gen 1 units you mentioned, Olivia/Sylvia/Reyson/Tethys to fill out your dancer stable, Mordecai is a decent Smiter, Ares has some very good skills, Norne has good stats for a ranged unit.

IMO there's not a single unit that you need to pull. Some will make your life easier, some will give you higher score thresholds, but 90% of the content can be completed with free units, and 9% of the remainder is permanent so there's no rush to claim the rewards. Spending orbs in order to chase the last 1% is not cost-effective at all.

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Fuck Lyon-Awakening map. Time to pull out my free units.

4 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

Their higher usage of resources is still offset by the fact that the value of the things they're getting from those resources is going to be higher. Building a competent barracks from scratch requires far fewer resources to do now than it did at launch. Banners have free pulls and many have higher 5-star summon rates than at launch. New units have more coherent default skill sets that don't require much or sometimes any skill fodder to make competent. With refines being added to older units, even the 3- and 4-star summon pools have a large number of endgame-viable units to pull, many of which don't require significant investment to make competent, and many of which you highlighted in your own post.

The value they get is higher than when we first built our Barracks, but we veterans still benefit from that higher value much earlier than they have and have less time pressure to do so. It is not like our units are stuck forever with their first skill set we gave them. Their progression will be faster, but it is still a lot of catching up to do. They still have to spend Orbs to accumulate units and fodder, 20,000-40,000 Feathers on each unit they plan to use to 5* and maybe Flaw elimination, 200 Divine Dew on each one that has a good refine, 160+ Coins per Sacred Seal, and buttload of Grails if they want to have the same highly merged Grail units.

The gap between an individual new player and a veteran player will stop growing, but the gap is still there and is pretty massive. And the gap between newer players as a whole and veterans will still keep on growing the later a new player joins.

3 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Without spending a single orb, new players can obtain Brave Veronica, Eir, Fjorm, Peony, Reinhardt, Ninian, Xander, Mage Eirika and Brave Ike. There are many useful units that are 3-4 star, and so are effectively free as you will pull a copy sooner or later - the gen 1 units you mentioned, Olivia/Sylvia/Reyson/Tethys to fill out your dancer stable, Mordecai is a decent Smiter, Ares has some very good skills, Norne has good stats for a ranged unit.

Every benefit that new players have, we veterans have also taken advantage of. Those benefits do not address the resource gap which is permanent. Their progression will be faster than when we first started, but they still have a lot of catching up to do.

Assuming a player is focusing on Player Phase, they still need to at least a month or two of playing the game to get a core set of Tharja, Tailtiu, Nino, and Klein running.

3 hours ago, Baldrick said:

IMO there's not a single unit that you need to pull. Some will make your life easier, some will give you higher score thresholds, but 90% of the content can be completed with free units, and 9% of the remainder is permanent so there's no rush to claim the rewards. Spending orbs in order to chase the last 1% is not cost-effective at all.

It is not about spending Orbs to chase that 1% of top tier units. It is the required spending of hundreds and hundreds of Orbs to build up necessary merges and fodder for use.  Nino does not just pop into our Barracks free of charge, we still need to spend Orbs on her. And those free 5* unit we all get should not have too much investment going into them since they should be kept unmerged and unFlowered for guides.

We have a 3 year head start in building massive fodder reserves. New players are bottlenecked by the fact that they should still wait for a Focus with 5* units that they actually want to spend Orbs on before spending hundreds of Orbs to build their fodder. Dew and Coins are time gated, and those two and Feathers can all bottleneck player's progress as well. Building a Barracks from scratch has an insanely high Feather consumption.

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36 minutes ago, XRay said:

Fuck Lyon-Awakening map. Time to pull out my free units.

The value they get is higher than when we first built our Barracks, but we veterans still benefit from that higher value much earlier than they have and have less time pressure to do so. It is not like our units are stuck forever with their first skill set we gave them. Their progression will be faster, but it is still a lot of catching up to do. They still have to spend Orbs to accumulate units and fodder, 20,000-40,000 Feathers on each unit they plan to use to 5* and maybe Flaw elimination, 200 Divine Dew on each one that has a good refine, 160+ Coins per Sacred Seal, and buttload of Grails if they want to have the same highly merged Grail units.

The gap between an individual new player and a veteran player will stop growing, but the gap is still there and is pretty massive. And the gap between newer players as a whole and veterans will still keep on growing the later a new player joins.

Every benefit that new players have, we veterans have also taken advantage of. Those benefits do not address the resource gap which is permanent. Their progression will be faster than when we first started, but they still have a lot of catching up to do.

Assuming a player is focusing on Player Phase, they still need to at least a month or two of playing the game to get a core set of Tharja, Tailtiu, Nino, and Klein running.

It is not about spending Orbs to chase that 1% of top tier units. It is the required spending of hundreds and hundreds of Orbs to build up necessary merges and fodder for use.  Nino does not just pop into our Barracks free of charge, we still need to spend Orbs on her. And those free 5* unit we all get should not have too much investment going into them since they should be kept unmerged and unFlowered for guides.

We have a 3 year head start in building massive fodder reserves. New players are bottlenecked by the fact that they should still wait for a Focus with 5* units that they actually want to spend Orbs on before spending hundreds of Orbs to build their fodder. Dew and Coins are time gated, and those two and Feathers can all bottleneck player's progress as well. Building a Barracks from scratch has an insanely high Feather consumption.

If new players want to actively reach for high tiers in game modes, it takes at most 5 months to reach T27 in AR. This has already been done by people who are f2p, and they said it wasn;t even optimised, and, this was before the change to AR fort levels for lower tiers. 

One of the people who did this reached AR T27 in Light and Astra consecutively by using the following teams:

- Kronya CC vantage

- -atk Matthew CC vantage

- -atk Eliwood and Peri for galeforce

- free Reinhardt and B!Lyn for hit and run.

None of these were merged past +1, some were even unmerged. 

 

Tailtiu, Nino, Klein and Tharja are not the best investments for new players. There are cheaper and better units to use, they also do not score well in Arena, which is where, if new players want to actively pursue high rankings in every game mode, should aim their merges. AR does not require highly merged units if you understand the AI and do your calcs beforehand. Arena is easily trivialised by using f2p armors.

 

The f2p gameplan was, in short: Summon a shitton on a mythic banner that had offensive mythics+legendary on one colour. That way they merged a mythic for Mjolnir and AR, made a unit for Arena, and got fodder and 3 / 4 star units to merge up that scored well in arena. Valbar and Norne come to mind. 

Of course they are behind in resources, but if a new player actively wants to reach endgame and the highest tiers, it does not take that long at all. And for the casual collector, it doesn;t really matter that they start at a deficit since they spend willy nilly for their favourite units and care less about scoring.

 

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51 minutes ago, XRay said:

And those free 5* unit we all get should not have too much investment going into them since they should be kept unmerged and unFlowered for guides.

Actually, I'd strongly advise against that for 5* free units like B!Ike. I know it would make the guides a little different, but I think they could gain a lot more out of making use of those units, especially in learning the game. They could do a whole lot more by investing in and learning to use those units, rather than leaving them exactly as they are.

At least, that's my two cents. B!Ike has done me so much good I would hate leaving him as his base unit. 

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57 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

If new players want to actively reach for high tiers in game modes, it takes at most 5 months to reach T27 in AR. This has already been done by people who are f2p, and they said it wasn;t even optimised, and, this was before the change to AR fort levels for lower tiers. 

Not everyone is tactically gifted. Reaching Tier 27 is possible, but it is not feasible nor reasonable to expect most players to achieve that, or else most players would have done it by now. It took me over a year to get my Gold Throne and that is with pouring a huge amount of resources into Kronya. We have a huge swathe of players who are sick of Aether Raids and just do the bare minimum to maintain Tier 21. What is easy for some to achieve is difficult for others.

57 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

One of the people who did this reached AR T27 in Light and Astra consecutively by using the following teams:

- Kronya CC vantage

Counter-Vantage Kronya is not cheap, as she also needs Special Spiral or Null C-Disrupt. You also want at least one AMH!Hector for better map coverage. Bolt Tower (O) does not give a lot of room for errors and waiting for it cuts down on usable turns.

57 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

Tailtiu, Nino, Klein and Tharja are not the best investments for new players. There are cheaper and better units to use, they also do not score well in Arena, which is where, if new players want to actively pursue high rankings in every game mode, should aim their merges. AR does not require highly merged units if you understand the AI and do your calcs beforehand. Arena is easily trivialised by using f2p armors.

I bounce between Tier 19 and Tier 20 running BH!Lyn, Reinhardt, and Olivia with minimal score enhancing skills (Aether and high scoring B, C, Sacred Seal). While Arena is easy, it is still a pain in the ass to use armor units for most players, and maintaining Tier 21 takes a lot of effort.

Those four units offer killing power to quickly eliminate opponents in any mode and offer an easy time for difficult content.

57 minutes ago, Vicious Sal said:

The f2p gameplan was, in short: Summon a shitton on a mythic banner that had offensive mythics+legendary on one colour. That way they merged a mythic for Mjolnir and AR, made a unit for Arena, and got fodder and 3 / 4 star units to merge up that scored well in arena. Valbar and Norne come to mind. 

Of course they are behind in resources, but if a new player actively wants to reach endgame and the highest tiers, it does not take that long at all. And for the casual collector, it doesn;t really matter that they start at a deficit since they spend willy nilly for their favourite units and care less about scoring.

Mythic and Legendary Foci are the way to go, but not everyone wants to dump everything they have into characters they do not care about. Most players want to use their favorites or preferred playstyle, rank high for rewards, and invest as little effort/time as possible into the game. Most players have to find a balance between the three and they all prioritize them differently.

49 minutes ago, Venmi said:

Actually, I'd strongly advise against that for 5* free units like B!Ike. I know it would make the guides a little different, but I think they could gain a lot more out of making use of those units, especially in learning the game. They could do a whole lot more by investing in and learning to use those units, rather than leaving them exactly as they are.

At least, that's my two cents. B!Ike has done me so much good I would hate leaving him as his base unit. 

BH!Ike is more of a luxury though. If a player really likes him and want to use him, they will probably be summoning him for merges anyways, so I think they are better off building a summoned copy and leaving the free copy alone, and the player can merge and Flower the summoned copy however they want.

Edited by XRay

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Awakening units you say? Now that's going to be a piece of cake!

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

Not everyone is tactically gifted. Reaching Tier 27 is possible, but it is not feasible nor reasonable to expect most players to achieve that, or else most players would have done it by now. It took me over a year to get my Gold Throne and that is with pouring a huge amount of resources into Kronya. We have a huge swathe of players who are sick of Aether Raids and just do the bare minimum to maintain Tier 21. What is easy for some to achieve is difficult for others.

Not everyone is tactically gifted, but as i have repeatedly stated in my previous post: Scoring and the highest rewards only matter for the people that actively pursue those. So your argument here doesn't hold water. If someone wants to get there asap, they have all the available tools at their disposal. Youtube guides, written AI guides. the entire game is deterministic and if someone is dead set on getting to endgame he can do so even without being tactically gifted. For everyone who isn't actively pursuing end game and highest rewards, as I said before, this entire argument is irrelevant. Someone who is new to the game and just casually collects only FE8 units won;t be interested in a map that requires awakening units. And if they want the resources, PM1 still has "NO skill inheritance guides on F2P units" for these kinds of maps. 

Bringing up the fact that there are plenty of people that just coast in T21 - T23 is irrelevant as well, since they don't care about max rewards anyway. So a new player that is also going to coast in T21 and hover at T18-19 in arena is not a relevant topic of discussion since they by default do not care about getting every single reward out there. 

Kronya gets easier with more investment, but is not someone that needs pouring huge amount of resources into to get T27. Peony (free), Tethys (most likely free when someone mass summons on a mythic banner while going for mythic merges), Bonus unit with smite (Free, since askr trio exists), Eir with smite (free) and Kronya at +0 with wrath (40000 feather total for 1 kronya and 1 Astram) was enoug/h to get T27. Savage blow spam, PvE's the maps, and used a different team when the healing tower was not snipable. 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Counter-Vantage Kronya is not cheap, as she also needs Special Spiral or Null C-Disrupt. You also want at least one AMH!Hector for better map coverage. Bolt Tower (O) does not give a lot of room for errors and waiting for it cuts down on usable turns.

Kronya gets easier with more investment, but is not someone that needs pouring huge amount of resources into to get T27. Peony (free), Tethys (most likely free when someone mass summons on a mythic banner while going for mythic merges), Bonus unit with smite (Free, since askr trio exists), Eir with smite (free) and Kronya at +0 with wrath (40000 feather total for 1 kronya and 1 Astram) was enough to get T27. Savage blow spam, PvE's the maps, and just use a different team when the healing tower was not snipable. Miracle with Vantage + Athame is also a valid strategy. Since it practically guarantees Vantage will go off despite healing towers. 

 
1 hour ago, XRay said:

I bounce between Tier 19 and Tier 20 running BH!Lyn, Reinhardt, and Olivia with minimal score enhancing skills (Aether and high scoring B, C, Sacred Seal). While Arena is easy, it is still a pain in the ass to use armor units for most players, and maintaining Tier 21 takes a lot of effort.

And this is useful information how? If a new player wants to get T21 asap, they will invest into units that get them there, and seek out specific fodder that increases score. The highest investment here is the feathers, which is why it took 4 months for the person that documented this. He stated this would have been possible sooner with better stamina management, since he hardly touched the chain challenges on lower difficulties. Just because they took so much stamina. What you do has nothing to do with what a new player that aims for the top wants.

1 hour ago, XRay said:

 

Mythic and Legendary Foci are the way to go, but not everyone wants to dump everything they have into characters they do not care about. Most players want to use their favorites or preferred playstyle, rank high for rewards, and invest as little effort/time as possible into the game. Most players have to find a balance between the three and they all prioritize them differently.

 

There is a tradeoff, but if you're going for favourites, you have to accept you won't get top score and top rewards asap, and if that's what you want to do you'll sacrifice some resources for it. But if a new player just wants to climb to the top as quickly and efficiently as possible, it does not take long at all. The disparity between a new player and a veteran is not that big at all. A new player that focuses on rankings will relatively soon get equal with the top players income wise and thus quickly surpasses casual players that play for collecting, favourites, etc.

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1 hour ago, Vicious Sal said:

Not everyone is tactically gifted, but as i have repeatedly stated in my previous post: Scoring and the highest rewards only matter for the people that actively pursue those.

1 hour ago, Vicious Sal said:

And this is useful information how? If a new player wants to get T21 asap, they will invest into units that get them there, and seek out specific fodder that increases score. The highest investment here is the feathers, which is why it took 4 months for the person that documented this. He stated this would have been possible sooner with better stamina management, since he hardly touched the chain challenges on lower difficulties. Just because they took so much stamina. What you do has nothing to do with what a new player that aims for the top wants.

1 hour ago, Vicious Sal said:

There is a tradeoff, but if you're going for favourites, you have to accept you won't get top score and top rewards asap, and if that's what you want to do you'll sacrifice some resources for it. But if a new player just wants to climb to the top as quickly and efficiently as possible, it does not take long at all.

It is not about scoring the highest for the max rewards. It is about scoring high enough so players will have a decent income so they can pursue other priorities. I agree that most players do not care about having max rewards, but they still care about having good rewards. Dumping all your resources to get max rewards is not the goal for most players. For most players, it is about investing just enough to get to decent rewards so they have a decent income to pursue whatever projects they want. The goal of most players is to land somewhere between Tier 19 and Tier 21 Arena and maintain Tier 21 Aether Raids.

1 hour ago, Vicious Sal said:

The disparity between a new player and a veteran is not that big at all.

The disparity is freaking huge. It is a difference of around 5,000 Orbs and 3 million Feathers if comparing a day 1 player like me to someone who just started in February this year. That is like around two 5*+10 exclusive units with full premium skill sets and thirteen promoted +10 units.

1 hour ago, Vicious Sal said:

And if they want the resources, PM1 still has "NO skill inheritance guides on F2P units" for these kinds of maps. 

That is true, but the point still stands that they have to spend those resources in ways that veterans did not have to. I did not have to spend any extra Sacred Coins for the vast majority of Sacred Seals. I did not have to spend extra Grails to get my first copy of Grail units because the game already gave me the first few copies during their debut.

If these maps were permanent or on some kind of rotating schedule, I would be much less opposed to them having such strict requirements. But the fact is that these are not permanent and we are not sure if they will be on a rotating schedule. We already have Quests, Events, Coliseum-Aether Raids, and a portion of Special Maps that continuously widen the gap between veteran players and players who just started. We do not need to speed up the widening of that gap anymore than it already is.

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