Fire Emblem Heroes General Discussion and Links

[Kaden]

On 8/15/2020 at 9:17 PM, Fire Emblem Fan said:

I've been debating about my Brave Lyn. She's +10 and +Atk, but with how fast the game keeps getting, I've been considering +Spd. But, I don't want to leave her too weak, since she's still pretty freaking fast even with neutral Spd.

In my insanity, I've gone down the rabbit hole in believing 50 base neutral speed unmerged is too slow and there is no unit in the game yet with 50 base neutral speed unmerged. With CYL4 signaling the start of gen 5 BST, I think I'm going to dig deeper and move it to 57 base neutral speed unmerged is going to become too slow. Why 7 higher? Don't know. Just an arbitrary number I picked. 60 unmerged speed -- how they reach it I don't care -- I was thinking would be pushing it as the bare minimum for the speed check damage reduction skills. 70 would be safer.

Unless the intention is for a one-shot, attack stacking build or the unit's attack is very low and that is very rare with my definition of low attack, then any unit with remotely decent speed I feel like +Spd would better than +Atk. What "remotely decent speed" means to me anymore I have no clue. That is more for offensive builds, though. For defensive builds, it's up to the unit and the intent. For instance, do you want Eyvel to be a generalist with +Spd, a pure defense tank with +Def, or want to try stacking resistance and make her a mixed tank with +Res?

Further insights into my warped view of the game now include: all units are dead on arrival. Just going to keep digging and digging. Why try to claw my way out when more absurdities are to be found at the expense of my sanity? Grandmaster 26 lance fighter with 99 HP, 99 Atk, 99 Spd, 50 Def, and 50 Res is going to look like an average unit in my eyes any day now. Any. Day. Now.

TL;DR: poor soul speaks nonsense due to being traumatized by The Great Speed War. Send help, but slowly. Sudden help will only further unhinge the fool.

Although I do have units I would like to use Trait Fruits on, caution or neglect is going to make me hold onto them like I have done with Blessings, Dragonflowers, and Heroic Grails, especially Grails. I am not going to list 3* to 4* summonable units since eventually a copy with an ideal asset will show up and I can stop at +9 for a merge project if they are one.

Spoiler

Would be useful: legendary Alm (+Res, -Def to +Spd, -Def), regular Celica (+Res, -HP to +Atk or +Spd, -HP), legendary Edelgard (+Res, -HP to +Atk, -Spd), Eleonora (+Atk, -HP to +Spd, -HP), Leila (+HP,  -Atk to +Spd, -Res), regular Mareeta (+Atk, -Res to +Spd, -Res), Ophelia (+Spd, -Def to +Atk, -Def), and Yune (+HP, -Res to +Anything that is not +HP, -Whatever). Eleonora would be the most important one since I use her for Aether Raids Light season and Mirage Longbow's Firesweep effect works off of her speed -- I really want to give her Lull Spd/Def, but the two Claudes showing up with +Spd and +Atk. Following her I guess would be Yune since she's the only defense mythic I have with a crappy asset and flaw. Duma luckily showed up as +Atk, -Res at first and I was able to get a merge for him, Mirabilis is neutral which is fine, and Sothis is +1 neutral which is also fine. Meanwhile, the flying poncho. It's not going to make my Dark defense team start winning things, but her general performance should be better without -Res. Everyone else is a, "Yeah, that would be nice to have on them." Regular Celica and regular Mareeta have a merge, so their flaw can be whatever.

Not a high priority at the moment: regular Dorcas (+Spd, -Res to +Atk or +Res, -Spd), Eir (+Atk, -Def to +Spd, -Def), legendary Eliwood (+Res, -Atk to +Spd, -HP or -Res), CYL Eliwood (+Def, -Atk to +Spd, -HP or -Res), Idunn (+Def, -Res to +Atk, +Def, or +Res, -Spd), CYL Ike (+Def, -Spd to +Atk, +Res, -Spd or even +Spd, -Res), Jaffar (+HP, -Res to +Atk or +Spd, -HP or -Def), ninjabbit Kagero (+Atk, -Res to +Spd, -Res), Halloween Kagero (+Def, -Atk to +Atk, -Spd), Karla (+Atk, -HP to +Spd, -HP), Laevatein (+Spd, -Atk to +Atk or +Spd, -HP), Fomortiis Lyon (neutral to +Atk, -Spd), regular Lysithea (+Def, -HP to +Atk or +Spd, -HP), CYL Roy (+Res, -Def to +Spd, -Res), Shannan (+Res, -Atk to +Atk or +Spd, -Res or -HP), Sonya (+Def, -Res to +Atk, -HP), and Tibarn (+Res, -Def to +Atk, -Res). These units aren't used a lot, invested as much despite them being good if not exceptional, or their asset and flaw are fine like Eir and Karla, but a different asset could be more helpful. Shannan's mainly on here because of the Heir of Light rerun where if Larcei shows up, thus, completing my collection of the units from that banner, I could choose him as my guaranteed 5* unit over Ced and replace the +Res, -Atk copy with a neutral one, I could save up Trait Fruits and switch him to whatever I want, or not care since -Atk hasn't been that detrimental to him. Jaffar, ninjabbit Kagero, Karla, and CYL Roy have at least merge, so their flaw can be whatever.

Could be fixed with a merge: Ayra (+Spd, -Atk), regular Claude (+Spd, -Atk), Hilda (+Spd, -Atk), berserk Ike (+Spd, -Atk), Zelgius (+Atk, -Spd), and many others with a good asset, but they're -Atk or whatever. Claude would not be here if I were to commit to the +Atk, -Def copy instead.

Grail units: Brunnya (probably +Spd), Kronya (+Atk), Legion (+Spd), Linus (+Spd), and Marisa (+Spd). I should prioritize Brunnya and Kronya because of Aether Raids. Although I'm not a big fan of Legion, Sneering Axe is nutty. Similar deal with Linus. Marisa is out of favoritism. Mininerva is not on listed because I am still clinging onto hope that eventually we will get an axe flier demote and one with at least around 35/35 base neutral offenses. I'd rather not have to 5* another Mininerva who has been frequently used in recent F2P guides as I am desperately in need of barracks space. Please do not give us another slow, physically bulky axe flier. I would accept a mixed tank like, but would prefer a fast axe flier demote. Aversa's not listed either because I don't use her in Aether Raids. She's not on a defense team and outside of when she is a bonus unit, I didn't use her on offense. Don't know why. Maybe I couldn't think of a way to incorporate her into defense or offense. Also, I know +HP is what you would want on her for support, but I would rather have her be neutral or +Spd just in case I need her for combat.

 

Edited August 17, 2020 by Kaden

[XRay]

30 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Hang on a sec, working out

I made a mistake too and I accidentally I swapped Mareeta's and Larcei's numbers, and the numbers for Mareeta were not accurate (I think I left Mareeta's skills as disabled before). However, Brave Bow still out damages Mulagir when I import the Challengers List and Enemy List just now though.

Both sides got 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs, and the ones with Brazens are at 1 HP.

Mulagir-Life-Swift
Mareeta: 18
Larcei: 32

Mulagir-Brazen-Brazen
Mareeta: 17
Larcei: 22

Brave-Brazen-Sacae
Mareeta: 13
Larcei: 21

Edited August 17, 2020 by XRay

[Baldrick]

15 minutes ago, XRay said:

Mulagir-Brazen-Brazen
Mareeta: 17
Larcei: 22

Brave-Brazen-Sacae
Mareeta: 13
Larcei: 21

It's a win, but it's not decisive. The margins are quite thin, and are dependent on a lot of variables. For example, if Larcei is using Spd/Def Bond seal instead of Spd/Res, it's a tie. If Mulagir Lyn is using Phantom Speed seal instead of Brazen Atk/Spd, she has enough speed to double and kill Larcei.

 

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

It's a win, but it's not decisive. The margins are quite thin, and are dependent on a lot of variables. For example, if Larcei is using Spd/Def Bond seal instead of Spd/Res, it's a tie. If Mulagir Lyn is using Phantom Speed seal instead of Brazen Atk/Spd, she has enough speed to double and kill Larcei.

While Mulagir may be close or tie in certain player phase scenarios, and may even win with a very niche set up against specific threats, Brave Bow still blows Mulagir out the water in the vast majority of other scenarios. I am not sure I see the point in paying 200 Dew for second rate performance when you can pay a much cheaper cost of 20,000 Feathers for first rate performance.

Besides exclusive Brave Bows, the only other bows that can rival or surpass Brave Bow is just Lunar Arc, Slaying Bow, and Persecution Bow. Lunar Arc future proofs itself by using the enemy's Def against them. Slaying Bows can cut through a lot of bulk by ignoring in combat stat boosts and the Weapon triangle on the pre-combat hit. Persecution Bow is able to surpass Brave Bow in the meantime by brute forcing its numbers with Lull Spd/Def, so depending on how easy it is to get the Desperation status effect in the future, even Persecution Bow could potentially get outclassed with Brave Bow taking advantage of Lull Spd/Def too.

The only reason to go with Mulagir is if the player really needs that dual phase performance for their play style, but even with that argument, I do not see dual phase units (besides Counter-Vantage units) being all that relevant in the current meta due to how hard enemy nukes can hit. Whatever weak enemy support unit that Mulagir can handle on enemy phase, I am pretty sure Brave Bow can handle it too.

Edited August 17, 2020 by XRay

[Baldrick]

5 minutes ago, XRay said:

While Mulagir may be close or tie in certain player phase scenarios, and may even win with a very niche set up against specific threats, Brave Bow still blows Mulagir out the water in the vast majority of other scenarios. I am not sure I see the point in paying 200 Dew for second rate performance when you can pay a much cheaper cost of 20,000 Feathers for first rate performance.

Besides exclusive Brave Bows, the only other bows that can rival or surpass Brave Bow is just Lunar Arc, Slaying Bow, and Persecution Bow. Lunar Arc future proofs itself by using the enemy's Def against them. Slaying Bows can cut through a lot of bulk by ignoring in combat stat boosts and the Weapon triangle on the pre-combat hit. Persecution Bow is able to surpass Brave Bow in the meantime by brute forcing its numbers with Lull Spd/Def, so depending on how easy it is to get the Desperation status effect in the future, even Persecution Bow could potentially get outclassed with Brave Bow taking advantage of Lull Spd/Def too.

It's almost always better to max out your attack than try to salvage your speed, so Lyn is not a good user of Brave Bow. Speed is irrelevant unless you quad, if Mulagir isn't doubling enough to be worth it, Brave Bow certainly isn't. Even if it does, your performance is further compromised by needing to run Desperation instead of a Lull, and needing to get into Brazen/Desperation range.

5 minutes ago, XRay said:

The only reason to go with Mulagir is if the player really needs that dual phase performance for their play style,

Mulagir's niche is to stack speed on the player phase.

[XRay]

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

It's almost always better to max out your attack than try to salvage your speed, so Lyn is not a good user of Brave Bow.

But the results do NOT suggest maxing out raw Atk at the expense of giving up Brave effect, so I do not see how BH!Lyn is not a good user of Brave Bow. Literally every archer wants a Brave Bow if they going to be a raw damage nuke, with the only exceptions being the bows I mentioned above. There might be one or two additional exceptions out there that I have not checked, but Mulagir, Thögn, Cunning Bow, and other popular exclusive bows definitely do not match the raw power of Brave Bow. Brave Bows are to archers is akin to what Blade tomes are to mages.

If a person is arguing about dual phase, then fine, that is their play style and I agree Mulagir has an edge in that scenario, even if I do not think that play style does well in the current meta due to the amount of high powered ranged threats we have.

On pure player phase though? The numbers have consistently pointed to Brave Bow being superior in the vast majority of scenarios.

With all those numbers and proof, I am not sure how people can still say that dealing less damage with Mulagir is somehow still better than dealing more damage with Brave Bow.

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Speed is irrelevant unless you quad, if Mulagir isn't doubling enough to be worth it, Brave Bow certainly isn't.

But I have just shown proof that Brave Bow is clearly worth it despite not being able to quad. With few exceptions, hitting twice is almost always better than hitting once, and this scenario is not one of those exceptions.

And when both Weapons can double, Brave Bow absolutely curb stomps Mulagir, on both the Filtered Full List AND Hard List.

41 minutes ago, Baldrick said:

Speed is irrelevant unless you quad, if Mulagir isn't doubling enough to be worth it, Brave Bow certainly isn't.

Desperation is mandatory to avoid counter attacks. If you are running a Lull, your first round of combat might be good, but your nuke is not going to last more than one or two rounds of combat and will degrade into nothing more than a Reposition bot. Fixing that degradation requires a healer, and wasting a slot for a healer is almost never worth it on a player phase team when you can just run Desperation on your nukes and have a team slot open for another nuke or Dancer/Singer. Lulls simply are not sustainable on its own while Desperation is. Lulls might be fine in very short battles where you can counter pick the entire enemy team, but Lulls are not fine for modes with a lot of reinforcements or if you need the nuke to handle more than 1 or 2 enemies.

Lulls also shoe horns a Brave archer into a slow Brave role even if the archer has good enough Spd to quad, since the Brave archer cannot rely on Desperation to avoid counter attacks. In Story Maps, Desperation is not needed since Distant Counter is not common, but in Aether Raids, every tank and their mom and grandma has Distant Counter, and fast Brave archers need Desperation to work.

Getting into Desperation range might be difficult since there are Level 1 Bolt Traps out there, but they are still a minority. Also, getting into Brazen range is trivial compared to Desperation since most ranged nukes have under 50 HP when planned and built properly. Most Bolt Traps are also pretty easy to take advantage of, at least in the lower Tiers of Aether Raids.

Additionally, for BH!Lyn, she can also use Brave Bow in conjunction with Sacae's Blessing, so if the player is worried about getting into Desperation range, she can just use Sacae's Blessing for protection instead.

1 hour ago, Baldrick said:

Mulagir's niche is to stack speed on the player phase.

But Spd stacking does not produce the results that people claim it does. And the only scenario where it does is if BH!Lyn is using Phantom Spd to counter an extremely specific form of threat. In a few scenarios, Mulagir at best ties with Brave Bow, but in most other scenarios, Mulagir is strictly worse.

[Baldrick]

1 hour ago, XRay said:

But the results do NOT suggest maxing out raw Atk at the expense of giving up Brave effect

I'm talking about slow Brave versus fast Brave units.

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

But I have just shown proof that Brave Bow is clearly worth it despite not being able to quad

OK, but do you have proof speed isn't irrelevant when not able to quad?

 

1 hour ago, XRay said:

Desperation is mandatory to avoid counter attacks. If you are running a Lull, your first round of combat might be good, but your nuke is not going to last more than one or two rounds of combat and will degrade into nothing more than a Reposition bot. Fixing that degradation requires a healer, and wasting a slot for a healer is almost never worth it on a player phase team when you can just run Desperation on your nukes and have a team slot open for another nuke or Dancer/Singer. Lulls simply are not sustainable on its own while Desperation is. Lulls might be fine in very short battles where you can counter pick the entire enemy team, but Lulls are not fine for modes with a lot of reinforcements or if you need the nuke to handle more than 1 or 2 enemies.

Sometimes you need a nuke to handle a strong tank that can't be baited safely, and so combat power is more important than self-sustain.

1 hour ago, XRay said:

But Spd stacking does not produce the results that people claim it does.

That may be so, but neither do fast Brave units.

1 hour ago, XRay said:

In a few scenarios, Mulagir at best ties with Brave Bow, but in most other scenarios, Mulagir is strictly worse.

Mulagir-Brazen Atk/Spd
490:19:44
Brave Bow
504:16:33

So 490 is "a few scenarios", and 14 out of 553 is "most other scenarios"?

[Kaden]

Stupid thinking time!

Spoiler

Say'ri has 40 HP, 35 Atk, 40 Spd, 23 Def, and 34 Res and Amatsu has a Killer effect and Distant Counter when her HP is >= 50%.

M!Kris has 40 HP, 37 Atk, 40 Spd, 30 Def, and 25 Res and Blade of Shadow has a Killer effect and if his foe initiates or his foe's HP is full, then it neutralizes penalties on him and inflicts Atk/Spd/Def-5 on his foe.

Both Amatsu and Blade of Shadow are mainly enemy phase, but they do provide player phase performance through the ever versatile Killer effect and Blade of Shadow's effect does work when Kris's foe is at full health. Say'ri does not need to run Distant Counter necessarily opening her A passive for anything such as her default Kestral Stance 3, but it's still a conditional Distant Counter.

With her default Kestral Stance 3, on enemy phase, Say'ri will have 57 Atk, 46 Spd, 23 Def, and 34 Res, inflicts Guard, and be able to counterattack against ranged units without a Firesweep effect when her HP is >= 20. Against physical damage units, she needs to not take more than 43 damage to maintain her Distant Counter and against magical damage units, she needs to not take more than 54 damage. For pure enemy phase, helping out her defense, and giving her more speed for Close Call or Spurn if you were to replace her default Close Call, Steady Posture 2 as her seal would bump her up to 57 Atk, 50 Spd, 27 Def, and 34 Res on enemy phase. Now, she needs to not take more than 47 damage against physical damage to maintain her Distant Counter. If and when Spd/Def Solo becomes a seal, she can run that too for 2 more Spd/Def on enemy phase and being able to have Spd/Def+6 on player phase, but she would need to be mindful of her positioning.

If you want to, you could give her Atk/Def Unity from CYL Dimitri where you be trading 1 Atk at a minimum, 6 Spd, and Guard for 5 Def and reversing Atk/Def penalties when she is within 2 spaces of an ally, so it working on either phase instead of only enemy phase. Without any penalities, Say'ri would have 56 Atk, 40 Spd, 28 Def, and 34 Res and with Atk/Def penalties, she could have upwards to 63 Atk, 40 Spd, 35 Def, and 34 Res. In the future, Atk/Spd Unity or Spd/Def Unity could work as well if you would rather prioritize Atk/Spd or Spd/Def on her and be able to reverse those penalties. Or you could have her inherit Steady Posture 3, trade 6 Atk for 6 Def, and also Wrath 3 from Shannan if you want and also to have her be like a faster sword Osian who has Mirror Stance 3 and Wrath 3.

Kris on the other hand would need to run Distant Counter, but it would be unconditional and Blade of Shadow's effect is essentially Spectrum Stance. With Distant Counter and on enemy phase or against a foe at full health, Kris will have 58 Atk, 45 Spd, 35 Def, and 30 Res, neutralize penalties on him, and be able to counterattack against ranged units without a Firesweep effect so long as he's not dead before he can counterattack. If you want to even out his resistance more and give him more speed, then he can run Swift Stance 2 for pure enemy phase or Spd/Res Solo 3. With Swift Stance, Kris will have 58 Atk, 49 Spd, 35 Def, and 34 Res on enemy phase and with Spd/Res Solo, he will have 58 Atk, 51 Spd, 35 Def, and 36 Res on enemy phase or against a foe at full health when he's not adjacent to an ally.

Say'ri's high base resistance is her selling point where against mages running AoE special builds, she is already going to be taking less damage because of her high resistance and a speed check damage reduction skill is going to further reduce how much damage she takes which also helps her stay above 50% HP for Amatsu's Distant Counter, and it will let her do more damage with Iceberg and Glacies, but given Amatsu's Distant Counter requires her to be at a certain health range, sustain would be more important. At the same time, her high base resistance makes her more susceptible to Chill effects that target her resistance and unlike Kris, she cannot neutralize penalties by default. Another thing is her low defense is going to be a problem against physical ranged units running AoE special builds or just having high enough attack and speed that they would be able to take a chunk of her health and drop her out of Amatsu's Distant Counter.

Kris's disadvantage is that his defenses, mainly resistance, are all in-combat. His defense and resistance are not actually that high, he would be reliant on Spurn to reduce the damage from mages running AoE special builds, and because Blade of Shadow inflicts Atk/Spd/Def-5 instead of granting him Atk/Spd/Def/Res+5 like Balmung, Kris cannot get more damage from the stat based specials since his own stats are not rising. But this also works to his advantage as even though Blade of Shadow will be able to neutralize those penalties, he may be less susceptible to Chills than Say'ri.

The main difference is that Say'ri has higher base resistance than other fast sword infantry like her and an open A passive at the cost of her Distant Counter being conditional. Kris on the other hand has essentially Spectrum Stance that also works when his foe is at full health and can neutralize penalties at the cost of his stats, mainly resistance, being in-combat and having his A passive locked to an unconditional Distant Counter if you want him to be able to counterattack against ranged units. By default it's also Guard through Kestral Stance 3 versus penalty neutralization through Blade of Shadow. Which one is more important is up to the player, but I think penalty neutralization is more important since you could get Guard through other means.

Because why not. Berserk Ike has 40 HP, 35 Atk, 42 Spd, 32 Def, and 23 Res and Chaos Ragnell has Distant Counter and reverses, but does not neutralize penalties on him.

With his Darting Breath, on enemy phase, berserk Ike has 51 Atk, 46 Spd, 32 Def, and 23 Res, has special cooldown charge +1 per attack through Darting Breath on enemy phase, and is able to counterattack against ranged units without a Firesweep effect as long as he's not dead before he can counterattack. Penalty reversing occurs on either phase. Eventually when Swift Stance 3 is introduced, berserk Ike could trade special cooldown charge +1 per attack for 2 Spd, 6 Res, and Guard; he would have 51 Atk, 48 Spd, 32 Def, and 29 Res on enemy phase. Berserk Ike's base resistance is lower than Kris's and significantly lower than Say'ri's. Like Say'ri, his A passive is open, but unlike her, his Distant Counter is unconditional and unlike her or Kris, he does not have a Killer effect on Chaos Ragnell. That said, while he can't double up on Time's Pulse, he does have Radiant Aether which would have the same 4 cooldown as Aether on Kris and Say'ri and all three of them can increase special charging with someone like CYL Lucina for support. Unlike Kris, penalties are not neutralized on him, so units with weapons that make use of a penalties like Blizzard, Broadleaf Fan, and Levin Dagger will still work on him.

TL;DR: I think M!Kris might be better than Say'ri.

Edited August 17, 2020 by Kaden

[Karimlan]

Here's something of a discussion piece (I won't call it a controversy...yet) re Jorge and the CYL results.

 

[Anacybele]

I was literally watching that a few minutes ago. lol

[Othin]

IS wouldn't have had any obligation to add Jorge if they didn't want to. They decided to go for it because they thought it was funny enough to be worth it, and I think they're right.

[SuperNova125]

Just now, Karimlan said:

Here's something of a discussion piece (I won't call it a controversy...yet) re Jorge and the CYL results.

 

I agreed with everything he said. Credibility of CYL in the future will be debatable if anyone can have a character like Jorge get into the game like this. Especially when that spot could be taken by another popular character like Jill, Shinon, a 3H student. Another character with the good treatment he got (a personal weapon, a nice statline) could become the next big grail project of many people and at the same time be  someone people actually like. Nothing against Jorge as a character simply against the guy that got him in and not as much as I am mad at IS. The disappointing thing is that IS actually put him in the game and cared enough to also draw Daniel in his art. What I am saying is that IS, the ones that created the poll more than rewarded the fact that someone cheated in such a way. Now who knows how many people will attempt something similar with other such characters that aren't popular or memes and were simply artificially put into these positions. This year we had Jorge, last year (I think) we had the smash YouTuber that didn't even play the game rally for F Robin (if I remember correctly). CYL at this point is more of a heroes poll rather than a general FE poll and that's not a bad thing, IS simply needs to do something to prevent such things from happening again. 

[Anacybele]

9 minutes ago, SuperNova125 said:

I agreed with everything he said. Credibility of CYL in the future will be debatable if anyone can have a character like Jorge get into the game like this. Especially when that spot could be taken by another popular character like Jill, Shinon, a 3H student. Another character with the good treatment he got (a personal weapon, a nice statline) could become the next big grail project of many people and at the same time be  someone people actually like. Nothing against Jorge as a character simply against the guy that got him in and not as much as I am mad at IS. The disappointing thing is that IS actually put him in the game and cared enough to also draw Daniel in his art. What I am saying is that IS, the ones that created the poll more than rewarded the fact that someone cheated in such a way. Now who knows how many people will attempt something similar with other such characters that aren't popular or memes and were simply artificially put into these positions. This year we had Jorge, last year (I think) we had the smash YouTuber that didn't even play the game rally for F Robin (if I remember correctly). CYL at this point is more of a heroes poll rather than a general FE poll and that's not a bad thing, IS simply needs to do something to prevent such things from happening again. 

Even though I always like seeing a Tellius character get in (and as of now, without being an alt or seasonal rather than a regular new addition) and I plan to build Jorge, I have to agree completely and I hope that if this kind of thing does happen again, IS notices and take action. There's no point in this poll if people just cheat it and it makes it unfun.

[Karimlan]

On one hand, measures preventing the "sullying of the integrity of the CYL polls" would need to be taken, that's for sure. On the other, IS' seemingly lackadaisical reaction (we can speculate til the cows come home, but it isn't like anyone from their camp was frothing at the mouth at the "discovery") tells us that it's not a big deal.

[Sunwoo]

The issue with Jorge getting into the game via botting isn't so much Jorge himself, but what implications this may hold for the future.

If people see botting be rewarded like this, with the character being added into the game, what is to stop other people from doing the same thing -- aside from their own limitations in being able to bot? How far will this get? What's IS supposed to do if a character actually gets botted to first? Like, I don't know ... someone decides to bot for Creidne and by some sheer miracle they get her to first? And even if the characters don't actually get to first or second place, what if it fucks up the placement of CYL enough so that we end up getting banners with characters barely anyone wanted, while delaying those that are more popular? Such as Haitaka (a very minor boss from Fates) kicking out Charlotte or Benny or Orochi who would've otherwise been on there?

Is it fair to people who have been voting for characters who are legitimately popular, like Jill or Shinon, that IS can't be arsed to give us a proper Tellius or Farfetched banner with them but a joke character can get botted in? At the very least, it has to be frustrating as all fuck. While Jorge doesn't affect us getting an actual Tellius banner down the road, it is kind of aggravating to see a Tellius character who's not a seasonal being added in ... and it's a  character who was botted in who isn't that popular.

My point is that for these kinds of things, precedent is important. And I don't like the precedent that IS just set with this.

[Hilda]

As I have stated before:
CYL voting should only be doable ingame in FEH with an Event. That way botting is very limited and the CYL votes come from the actual fan of the game.

You could even tie the CYL voting up in the end with 2 "Voting Gauntlets" (but with no mulitplier or point accumalting just normal voting): 1 for the mens division and 1 for the womans division, just to give everyone a last chance to pick who they see should get a Brave Alt/Version

[Anacybele]

1 hour ago, Hilda said:

CYL voting should only be doable ingame in FEH with an Event.

This would work, as long as said event isn't some stupid shit like what Pokemon GO tried to pull at first with the Community Day voting. In that case, it was originally voting by getting research tasks corresponding to one of the voting options. If you could only get tasks for a Pokemon you didn't want to vote for or you can't really get to Pokestops to get tasks at all much, good luck making any sort of difference! Thankfully, Niantic realized how dumb this was and changed it to a Twitter poll.

[Diovani Bressan]

CYL stats and Jorge's bow:

 

[Tybrosion]

2 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Such as Haitaka (a very minor boss from Fates) kicking out Charlotte or Benny or Orochi who would've otherwise been on there?

Haitaka isn't an option in CYL. The only capturable bosses that are options are Nichol (Malig Knight from Sophie's paralogue) and Candace (Adventurer from Midori's paralogue). The real meme option, however, would be Layla (the dancer girl who literally only shows up in Birthright's version of the opera house chapter).

Besides, IS has already shown with Mustafa that they can prioritize one-off bosses over more popular and/or relevant character entirely of their own volition.

[Sunwoo]

26 minutes ago, Tybrosion said:

Haitaka isn't an option in CYL. The only capturable bosses that are options are Nichol (Malig Knight from Sophie's paralogue) and Candace (Adventurer from Midori's paralogue). The real meme option, however, would be Layla (the dancer girl who literally only shows up in Birthright's version of the opera house chapter).

Besides, IS has already shown with Mustafa that they can prioritize one-off bosses over more popular and/or relevant character entirely of their own volition.

Ah. Well, Haitaka can be replaced with any irrelevant one-off unpopular boss that is actually on the poll, I guess. Maybe Nichol or Candace would be a better analogue.

[XRay]

12 hours ago, Baldrick said:

OK, but do you have proof speed isn't irrelevant when not able to quad?

Yes, that was the whole point of picking fast enemies like Mareeta and Larcei with Spurn skills. Even with lower Atk and being stunted by Spurn effect, Brave Bow still wins out on damage on average because hitting twice will almost always deal more damage than hitting once.

People are claiming Mulagir does better in those scenarios when Mulagir clearly does not. The one way that Mulagir can do better is equipping Phantom Spd, but using Phantom Spd is not a viable solution since it wrecks Mulagir's match ups elsewhere.

11 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Sometimes you need a nuke to handle a strong tank that can't be baited safely, and so combat power is more important than self-sustain.

Those situations are rare. The only situation where I think a nuke will have issue dealing damage is against a stall team with a bunch of walls, but even then, most stall teams are crap and nukes have no issue overpowering the vast majority of them. If baiting them to move is an issue, Firesweep is available aggro the enemy to move.

11 hours ago, Baldrick said:

OK, but do you have proof speed isn't irrelevant when not able to quad?

But I have just shown a ton of numbers and proof that Brave Bow is the best player phase bow for archers, and there is only a handful of exceptions that rivals and surpasses Brave Bow.

If you are going to make the claim that fast Brave units are not good, then bring proof.

12 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Mulagir-Brazen Atk/Spd
490:19:44
Brave Bow
504:16:33

So 490 is "a few scenarios", and 14 out of 553 is "most other scenarios"?

Yes. That 14 difference is a big deal. The Filtered Full List should not be the only list that a player looks at since it does not provide the full picture; it does not present a realistic representation and proportion of the enemies a players face, since you cannot easily fine tune the builds on individual enemies very easily and filter out uncommon enemies. The Filtered Full List also has a bias favoring higher Spd, whereas the Hard List favors higher Atk. In my opinion, the Filtered Full List is best used as a supplemental metric to measure the performance of fast nukes against Spd tanks.

Against the Hard List, Brave Bow is just outright superior to Mulagir. However, there is still an issue with Hard List since there is an over representation of Def/Res tanks, resulting in a bias for higher Atk, and the Hard List does not reflect Spd creep in the game as well as the Filtered Full List can.

Challenger List: Both sides +10 with 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs. Mulagir-Life-Swift has full HP. Mulagir-Brazen has 31 HP. All Brave Bows have 1 HP.

Spoiler

CHALLENGER LIST  
Lyn (Brave) (5*+10 +spd -hp)  
Weapon: Mulagir  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Life and Death 4  
B: Sacae's Blessing  
S: Swift Sparrow 2  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Lyn (Brave) (5*+10 +spd -hp)  
Weapon: Mulagir  
Special: Moonbow  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Sacae's Blessing  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
Upgrade Path: 5  
  
Lyn (Brave) (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Brave Bow+  
Special: Luna  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
  
Lyn (Brave) (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Brave Bow+  
Special: Luna  
A: Life and Death 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Swift Sparrow 2  
  
Lyn (Brave) (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Brave Bow+  
Special: Luna  
A: Life and Death 4  
B: Desperation 3  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  
  
Lyn (Brave) (5*+10 +atk -hp)  
Weapon: Brave Bow+  
Special: Luna  
A: Brazen Atk Spd 4  
B: Sacae's Blessing  
S: Brazen Atk Spd 3  

Mulagir-Life-Swift
244:36:95
Mulagir-Brazen
289:36:50
Brave-Brazen 7
337:29:9
Brave-Life-Swift
270:81:24
Brave-Life-Brazen
314:49:12
Brave-Brazen 7-Sacae
226:74:75

[Humanoid]

Until such a time when voting requires a Nintendo account and is restricted to one vote per character, I will welcome our bot overlords. Like rampant doping in professional sports, there's sort of a car-crash fascination aspect to how brazen it is.

Besides, lords should be ineligible anyway. After all, you don't vote for kings. They are chosen by divine providence.

[EricaofRenais]

As someone who has favorites not in the game yet that are not overly popular (looks at Elphin's placing sadly), bot votes scare me since I fear the hate a character would get if they get bot votes.  I really worry about next year's CYL since someone could decide to bot and cause problems to characters I like.  I can just see Brigand Boss being bot voted all the way to top 5 with the message IS is sending to people with Jorge being added before actual popular characters.  

[Flying Shogi]

Watched the FE stream and here's the summary(in chronological order of topics discussed):

Toshiyuki Toyonaga(Claude)

Spoiler

• introduction to the series: watched his aunt play FE when he was 6 years old
• games played in the series: FE1, FE2, FE3, FE4, FE5, FE6, FE7, Awakening, Echoes
  • big fan of FE4 
    • the first game he could play by himself as he was older at this point in time
    • did a partial Arden-only playthrough of FE4(only made it to chapter 2)
    • he'd reset for good level ups in FE4(reseted if stat ups are under 4 but will take 3 if it's Str/Skill/Spd)
• wants to voice Ryan and Castor from Archanea
  • did a live "audition" for these two
  • maybe Claude from Jugdral as well because of the name
• likes armored units
• challenges faced in voicing Claude: differentiating the voice for academy phase and war phase
  • namely, which version of the voice work to present to the player as there are some support conversations that can be viewed in both phases of the game so that resulted in an extra direction for the VA, totaling 3
    • academy phase
    • general use(described as described as 3.5 years after the academy phase)
    • war phase

Taito Ban(Ferdinand, Osian)

Spoiler

• this guy is tall lol
• introduction to the series: was killing time at a game shop and happened to come across Awakening. He picked it up because the series has a long history so he thought it'd be interesting to play
• games played in the series: Awakening, Fates(Nohr & Hoshido), 3H
• likes Donnel because he gets a lot of stat ups upon level up
• likes Galeforce because it's really good
• likes the map theme of the final chapter in Awakening
• likes Hinoka
  • she's dependable
  • strong but shows her vulnerable side sometimes
  • live performance of what Ferdinand would say if had he met Hinoka
• likes Niles
• when voicing Ferdinand, he emphasized the "Ae" part in Aegir(in Japanese) because he thought that sounded noble and the studio decided to roll with it
  • he was able to stretch the "Ae" part to 14 seconds (performed live) 

• "In voicing Ferdinand, did any of his behaviors/ideologies affect your daily life?"

  • Voice became louder because Ferdinand tends to project his voice to get his point across

  • Taito says he didn’t really understand Ferdinand’s concept of nobility at first as everyone’s definition of that differs

• Challenges faced in voicing Ferdinand

  • how to sound noble; fine tuning/adjusting to Ferdinand’s speech to match the character’s philosophy of nobility

• When he actually played the game and saw how Ferdinand interacted with other characters, he finally understood why he was asked do certain things

Ayumi Tsuji(Bernadetta, Nina)

Spoiler

• Her actual voice is high pitched(similar to Bernadetta in Japanese)
• Played: Fates(Nohr) and 3H
• Likes gatekeeper
• If she was in the FE world, she would rather be a horse since she doesn’t like fighting
• "Please tell us about the things you share in common with Nina and Bernadetta"
  • Bernie:
    • likes to stay in
      • don’t want to go out
      • if possible, she’d rather not meet people; includes receiving delivery without human interaction
    • doing things alone in her room
  • Nina:
    • Instead of similar, Ayumi says she respects Nina as she(Nina) is very passionate about the things she(Nina) likes
• "If Nina and Bernie met, what do you think they’d talk about?"
  • Bernie would probably scold Nina and Bernie would become her toy in the sense that Nina is pushy and she'd overwhelm Bernie
• Challenges in voicing Bernie:
  • given too much freedom compared to the past works she has done where she was given specific instructions to perform exactly to the lines given
    • she was told that’d they even rewrite the text to accommodate her Bernie performance
  • having to yell a lot and yelling in ways that she has not done before such that it’s hard to even to put them into words
• "What were you thinking when voicing Nina?"
  • she could only have turned out the way she did because her father is Niles
  • seeing the slightly distorted relationship between Nina/Niles gives her a strange sense of security
• Live read of a Niles/Nina support conversation
  • note: JP Fehnix is also the VA for Niles

Edited March 2, 2021 by Flying Shogi

[Baldrick]

2 hours ago, XRay said:

Yes, that was the whole point of picking fast enemies like Mareeta and Larcei with Spurn skills. Even with lower Atk and being stunted by Spurn effect, Brave Bow still wins out on damage on average because hitting twice will almost always deal more damage than hitting once.

There's no difference between losing the speed check by 10 or 50, so you might as well use a unit like Legendary Leif.

Quote

People are claiming Mulagir does better in those scenarios when Mulagir clearly does not. The one way that Mulagir can do better is equipping Phantom Spd, but using Phantom Spd is not a viable solution since it wrecks Mulagir's match ups elsewhere.

Phantom Spd is not the only way to manage the few extra points of speed. Debuffs/Panic etc. exist, for both sides but it's easier for a player phase team to work around them.

Quote

If you are going to make the claim that fast Brave units are not good, then bring proof.

Legend Leif +0 Neutral, Meisterbogen/Death Blow/Lull Def/Death Blow

Challenger List: Filtered full list. Both sides +10 with 6/6/6/6 bonus buffs. Enemies have Distant Counter if empty, Spurn overwrite, and Darting Stance Sacred Seal.

515:35:3

 

Quote

The Filtered Full List should not be the only list that a player looks at since it does not provide the full picture; it does not present a realistic representation and proportion of the enemies a players face, since you cannot easily fine tune the builds on individual enemies very easily and filter out uncommon enemies. The Filtered Full List also has a bias favoring higher Spd, whereas the Hard List favors higher Atk. In my opinion, the Filtered Full List is best used as a supplemental metric to measure the performance of fast nukes against Spd tanks.

Well, my theory would be to consider the 38 enemies Leif couldn't kill. How does each version of Lyn perform against those? The better she does, the less obsolete that build is compared to Leif.

I have tentative results, but I'm not sure how decisive they are. I actually haven't been able to exactly replicate your parameters.

 

Losses: Pirate Veronica, Shannan, Legend Seliph, Rutger, Rudolf, Rinkah, Halloween Myrrh, Young Marth, Legend Marth, Brave Hector, Mamori, Mareeta, Fallen Lyon, Linus, Legion, Larcei, Julian, Idunn, Spring Idunn, Brave Ike, Hel, Legend Hector, Valentine Hector, Duo Hector, Gray, Duo Ephraim, Edelgard, Dimitri, Legend Chrom, Caineghis, Young Caeda, Male Byleth, Female Byleth, Ayra, Duo Alm

Inconclusive: Gerik, Eyvel, Nagi

 

Edited August 18, 2020 by Baldrick