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Corrobin

Magic (Original Gaiden or Modern Tomes?)

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So, in the original Gaiden, Mages/Clerics learned spells at certain levels with different attributes. Additionally, different characters learned spells at different rates, and some were only available to certain characters. Do you think that they'll keep it mostly the same, just update it with modern sensibilities, or they'll change it to the Tomes/Staves we use today?

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I hope they keep the old system. It's one of the things that makes Gaiden stand out. We've had standard tomes/staves for over a dozen games. Nothing wrong with them but let's change the pace for this one.

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I think they will do a fusion of the two kinda like Micaiah in Radiant Dawn: She could use Staves but she could also share her HP with allies.

A fusion of both would add a certain level of customization. Certain characters learn spells by leveling but can use additional spells with tomes. I doubt there will be an HP cost for spells in Gaiden though.
 

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I'm mostly hoping there is a HP cost but failing that I wouldn't object to see an MP stat like in traditional RPGs.

Edited by Jotari

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I would enjoy seeing the old system, mostly because I haven't played Gaiden before, and I'd like for everything unique to Gaiden to remain intact. Wouldn't mind a little bit of tweaks and polish, but for the most part, I want them to stay faithful to the original.

Edited by Cornguy

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Maybe we could see something like Tear Ring Saga, where some spells can only be used on turns that are a multiple of 3, or start with a 1 at the front, or every other turn, or something like that.

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Well there already seems like there are differences from typical examples of both systems, self inflicted damage I kinda doubt would happen only on the health bar and not on screen. (After battle ala fates "poison" damage I can see a bit more but that's a difference in itself)  And for the 3ds games, unless they hid them very well or I completely missed it I don't see our magic users holding any tomes (And I'd kinda except Celcia to have that or an equivalent more than a sword if so) so that's a more solid case of going off book. 

Pun intended. 

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What about some of the weirder bits of magic? Like Thunder being 1-3 Range, or Angel's monster effectiveness.

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14 minutes ago, Corrobin said:

What if to use a tome you had to give up a specific amount of HP?

That's just forcing the player to carry around additional resources that they didn't need in the first place. Besides if they go with the single weapon slot (which it seems a lot of people want) then you're removing a large variety of spells mages can use by limiting them to a single tome. I can see tomes being a piece of equipment that boosts magic but not as a requirement to use them. At least if you're maintaining the HP Cost and diversity of spells that was in the original.

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This argument reminds me of what David wrote in the "Philosophy of Wesnoth" thread. But anyway, I think that having magic be controlled differently than the other weapons would be bad game design. And I think that while having magic/tome units access Final Fantasy Tactics or Disgaea style command lists or whatever, while interesting, would ultimately make them overly influential and on the whole would clash with the rest of the game- the traditional move and 1-2 stuff flows better, is easy to understand, and keeps the value of mages in line with the value of normal troops. And gaiden's resource system is totally uncalled for anyway.

So yeah- the Gaiden magic system should be left in the dust.

"I also fleshed out a very basic interface. There would be only a few commands: to move a unit, and to attack with that unit, as well as to recruit and recall units. I added in unit skills, which was something Master of Monsters didn't have, but I made the skills occur implicitly -- healing would be dispensed to all units around a specific unit for instance.

Obviously, Wesnoth is a fantasy game, so it contains some implication of spells/magic, however I have always disliked games that got deep into sophisticated systems of spells.

In Wesnoth, wars would be decided with sword and bow. Mages would be involved too, of course, but warfare was to be about guiding troops around strategically, not about which spell to cast and where. So, from the beginning I decided that all spells would be implicit, or simply a type of attack.

This was a big divergence from Master of Monsters where one spell could be cast every turn by each master at any place on the battlefield. That was, in my opinion, one of the game's worst features - if your enemy had advanced a unit on the other side of the map, you could try to kill him with a spell."

Edited by Reality

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They did say they're trying to bring back original features, and we have a non-remake game coming in 2018 to use more typical features. I think it's reasonable to expect some sort of character-specific spell learning system, however much it may differ from the original, and I'd certainly be disappointed if they didn't take this chance to try that. I don't think they'd bring back casting spells off HP, but some sort of MP system could be interesting.

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Yeah, I hope they backload some new spells with a few new effects to use. Like, say, Elfire being effective against Beast units, or Excalibur being effective against flying units.

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I don't really mind personally. I never found myself worrying about my units in Gaiden when using magic, especially when my clerics got good.

I wouldn't mind if they introduced an MP stat to go along with HP.

Or even they could just give debuffs to stats when spells are used like in Fates with tomes (Though I would prefer if they just added MP or just took away HP).

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5 hours ago, Othin said:

They did say they're trying to bring back original features, and we have a non-remake game coming in 2018 to use more typical features. I think it's reasonable to expect some sort of character-specific spell learning system, however much it may differ from the original, and I'd certainly be disappointed if they didn't take this chance to try that. I don't think they'd bring back casting spells off HP, but some sort of MP system could be interesting.

Yeah, they said everything that made Gaiden unique is in the game, so it would be really weird not to have Gaiden's magic system in some form.

Lore-wise, I think it's really important for the HP reduction to occur. It explains why Mages and the like need Tomes and Staves, to reduce the strain on the body.

That said, didn't the Clerics have Staves in the their map sprites? Hmm...

 

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Mages in Gaiden had a lot more HP than they usually do. I never actually found the HP requirement to ever be a problem.

If anything, it was a boon: once you got two healers (so Teeta/Silk or Jenny/Celica) you could just spam Fortify/Heal or Physic/Heal respectively.

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In the trailer there were scenes showing Mages attacking (Boey and Celica, correct me if I'm wrong) and it seemed to me that they were not holding any kind of Tome, so I'm guessing they're keeping the original Gaiden mechanic for magic.

Boey2.pngCelica2.png

I didn't see the self-inflicted HP reduction though, but I think it's too soon to claim it's not there (it may occur after the battle animation, similar to some HP reductions in Fates).

Edited by Pikappa93

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I think I recall somewhere saying there's amiibo support. So if it works the same as Fates, how would Robin work? Would he be the only tome user? Or would Thoron just be a unique spell he learns. 

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I hope the magic system returns in its entirety, with the level up spells and the HP mana system. I would settle for a magic points system instead if they didn't bring back HP reduction, but I feel like this is the most Gaiden-y mechanic that wasn't in Sacred Stones and I want to see it again.

 

1 hour ago, AsherCrane said:

I think I recall somewhere saying there's amiibo support. So if it works the same as Fates, how would Robin work? Would he be the only tome user? Or would Thoron just be a unique spell he learns. 

Way too early to be making this jump.

We don't even know if Robin and co will work with it. It might just be Alm and Celica.

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59 minutes ago, Ema Skye said:

I hope the magic system returns in its entirety, with the level up spells and the HP mana system. I would settle for a magic points system instead if they didn't bring back HP reduction, but I feel like this is the most Gaiden-y mechanic that wasn't in Sacred Stones and I want to see it again.

 

Way too early to be making this jump.

We don't even know if Robin and co will work with it. It might just be Alm and Celica.

Oh, yeah, I'm not saying it definitely will (assuming they leave Celica mostly tbe same, Robin would probably be redundant anyway), I just wonder how Robin might work if the Hp spells are implimented, and Amiibos work the same.

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