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Should there be an Avatar?


Should there be an avatar?  

317 members have voted

  1. 1. Should Echoes add a customizable Avatar character>

    • Yes
      63
    • No
      254


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Nej. Nyet. Nein. This game doesnt need avatars. We have two perfectly good protagonists in Alm and Celica and i dont want their spotlight stolen by some Mary Sue character. This game deserves the remake it got, and therefore the protags deserve the attention they are getting. Amiibos being made of Alm and Celica upon release pretty much tells me that we arent getting an MU anyway. And im pleased with that.

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Don't see the point here. 

 

I like the avatar system more from a gameplay standpoint, otherwise you're just playing the lead lord with a custom haircut. I never felt like Corrin or Robin were a self-insert as I had too many instances of them just not reacting as I would as I had no dialogue options. So, it was always more about a custom build on this lead unit that's more flexible in the long run.

I'm more concerned with having more customizable units to fit my play style that run, which Gaiden appears to offer in many of the side characters as they have a swath of promotion options.

If one is there, well, that's fine, but I'm not going to miss it.

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I'm a firm believer in the notion that just about any concept can be good, if executed right, so I think that it would be possible to work an Avatar into Fire Emblem Gaiden in a way that isn't obtrusive to the story or gameplay.

However, whether or not I trust today's Intelligent Systems to do that well is another thing entirely, and frankly, I don't really trust them to. As such, I do not think Echoes should have an Avatar character, but less because I think the premise itself is absolutely unworkable on principle and more because I don't trust the people who would be implementing it to do it well.

Edited by Topaz Light
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1 minute ago, Altrosa said:

Don't see the point here. 

 

I like the avatar system more from a gameplay standpoint, otherwise you're just playing the lead lord with a custom haircut. I never felt like Corrin or Robin were a self-insert as I had too many instances of them just not reacting as I would as I had no dialogue options. So, it was always more about a custom build on this lead unit that's more flexible in the long run.

I'm more concerned with having more customizable units to fit my play style that run, which Gaiden appears to offer in many of the side characters as they have a swath of promotion options.

If one is there, well, that's fine, but I'm not going to miss it.

 

Pretty much this. Can't make meaningful choices? Then your "self-insert" is mostly it's own character that they tried to force you to like. It's like how Nintendo likes to say that you ARE Link, but I just feel like I'm directing a character through his world and his one and only name is Link. Persona 4 protagonist? Yeah, not fooling me.

 

Pillars of Eternity for making you feel like you are your character, for the most part.

Divinity: Original Sin for having two separate, customizable characters. And you even get to choose what they say, separately. Although I have just started the game, so I can't say how in depth it goes.

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1 hour ago, InfinityAlex said:

I can:

Petting.

No, for me, the avatar is the single worst mechanic in Fire Emblem's history, worse than every other bad mechanic put together. You do not know the full depths of my hatred for the whole avatar mechanic.

So far, we don't have any news or even hints towards an avatar system in Shadows of Valentia. And that alone makes it far, far better game than Awakening and Fates put together.

Edited by Ranger Jack Walker
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Petting most likely wouldn't have brought in without the avatar being a thing first, so in that case it sounds like petting is a side effect/problem of the avatar mechanic being a thing.

Also, can't remember if I responded to this thread before, so I don't think there should be an avatar in this game. Didn't work in FE12, and it most certainly wouldn't work here either.

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No.
An avatar would bring nothing in this game.  Also it seems that Alm and Celica would get more moments than they did in Gaiden and the Villagers can fill the Avatar's role gameplay wise .
If there is one, I wouldn't mind it as long as the avatar doesn't ruin the story or steal Alm and Celica's screentimes and roles.
 

On 20/02/2017 at 9:27 PM, ChibiToastExplosion said:

How would they warp between routes? You'd have to somehow make the avatar travel between two separate parties, or just have the avatar for half the game.

That's the biggest reason I don't think there will be one. And if there is one, that's quite a story stretch, one I would argue that would make the game worse.

If there is an avatar, I don't see why it would be a problem if the avatar just stays in one group like the other characters.
At the end of chapter 2, they could just decide which party they could join and stay with that party till the end of the game.

 

2 hours ago, InfinityAlex said:

I can:

Petting.

Even though I am not a big fan of this feature, petting is at least optional and you can at least ignore it unlike the avatar mechanic (except in FE7 of course).

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1 hour ago, Thunderstar said:

No.
An avatar would bring nothing in this game.  Also it seems that Alm and Celica would get more moments than they did in Gaiden and the Villagers can fill the Avatar's role gameplay wise .
If there is one, I wouldn't mind it as long as the avatar doesn't ruin the story or steal Alm and Celica's screentimes and roles.
 

If there is an avatar, I don't see why it would be a problem if the avatar just stays in one group like the other characters.
At the end of chapter 2, they could just decide which party they could join and stay with that party till the end of the game.

 

Even though I am not a big fan of this feature, petting is at least optional and you can at least ignore it unlike the avatar mechanic (except in FE7 of course).

You can basically ignore the avatar in FE12. S/He only shows up in like a handful of scenes outside of the prologue and Gaidens and basically fucks off for most of the game, at least if you don't field them. You just need them for one or two extremely standout characters to be recruited (and in Gaiden chapters by the way so not even main chapters) and then that's it.

People really oversell how much the avatar affects the main story but I literally can count only one genuine instance (the intro to Chapter 14) where it's not a new scene or new dialogue where the avatar screws something up from the original dialogue. Anyplace else, even if he takes a few random words that Marth used to use, functionally amounts to something Jagen was already doing in the original and current script and thus isn't that much of a change at all as much as being redundant at worst. The avatar is ultimately pretty pointless in the main chapters unless it's a new scene they add (which isn't tampering with the original script so much as expanding upon it) or it's a prologue or Gaiden chapter they added (also expansion).

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems
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2 hours ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

No, for me, the avatar is the single worst mechanic in Fire Emblem's history, worse than every other bad mechanic put together. You do not know the full depths of my hatred for the whole avatar mechanic.

So far, we don't have any news or even hints towards an avatar system in Shadows of Valentia. And that alone makes it far, far better game than Awakening and Fates put together.

Mind PMing me why? As a proponent of the Avatar (in original games at least, not remakes), I'm interested in hearing your vehement hatred, but obviously here isn't the place to do it.

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On 2/20/2017 at 2:27 PM, ChibiToastExplosion said:

How would they warp between routes? You'd have to somehow make the avatar travel between two separate parties, or just have the avatar for half the game.

That's the biggest reason I don't think there will be one. And if there is one, that's quite a story stretch, one I would argue that would make the game worse.

Easy.

 

Avatar has a tome or a rod that lets it travel to Alm and Celica instantaneously.

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On 2/20/2017 at 5:54 PM, Loki Laufeyson said:

Nej. Nyet. Nein. This game doesnt need avatars. We have two perfectly good protagonists in Alm and Celica and i dont want their spotlight stolen by some Mary Sue character. This game deserves the remake it got, and therefore the protags deserve the attention they are getting. Amiibos being made of Alm and Celica upon release pretty much tells me that we arent getting an MU anyway. And im pleased with that.

We've never gotten a Mary Sue Avatar, though.

 

3 hours ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

No, for me, the avatar is the single worst mechanic in Fire Emblem's history, worse than every other bad mechanic put together. You do not know the full depths of my hatred for the whole avatar mechanic.

So far, we don't have any news or even hints towards an avatar system in Shadows of Valentia. And that alone makes it far, far better game than Awakening and Fates put together.

Why, though?

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2 minutes ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

We've never gotten a Mary Sue Avatar, though.

chris is easily the best character in fe12 and is loved by pretty much everyone and is revealed to have been the real hero of archanea while fe3 didn't actually happen since marth is apparently really weak and insecure, despite any of the development he had in shadow dragon

corrin is a prince of two kingdoms whose siblings all love and trust him, all but one of them on the side who barely know him immediately accept him as an ally despite the fact that he's lived his life up until as a prince of the opposing kingdom that hates them and don't have a bit of suspicion about him even after their mother dies shortly after his arrival

robin is a whole different beast but i haven't played awakening in a long time so i'm not sure if i recall everything correctly

 

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I'm all for an avatar in a new game, but inserting an avatar into a remake is a bad idea. I think we should have learned from mystery of the emblem.

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42 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

You can basically ignore the avatar in FE12. S/He only shows up in like a handful of scenes outside of the prologue and Gaidens and basically fucks off for most of the game, at least if you don't field them. You just need them for one or two extremely standout characters to be recruited (and in Gaiden chapters by the way so not even main chapters) and then that's it.

People really oversell how much the avatar affects the main story but I literally can count only one genuine instance (the intro to Chapter 14) where it's not a new scene or new dialogue where the avatar screws something up from the original dialogue. Anyplace else, even if he takes a few random words that Marth used to use, functionally amounts to something Jagen was already doing in the original and current script and thus isn't that much of a change at all as much as being redundant at worst. The avatar is ultimately pretty pointless in the main chapters unless it's a new scene they add (which isn't tampering with the original script so much as expanding upon it) or it's a prologue or Gaiden chapter they added (also expansion).

I must admit that I wasn't thinking about Kris when I wrote this. Even though Kris is less revelant, he/she is still present so if someone dislikes/hates them (it is not my case), the game experience might not be enjoyable for this person.

I was mainly referencing how Robin became more revelant than Chrom and Lucina in Awakening's final arc and Corrin's role and them being praised despite their mistakes in Fates in general.

Kris obvously has flaws as well but I prefer a bit more their roles because there are less revelant than these 2 (though for Corrin it is understandable since he/she is also a Lord).

I am a bit scared that a possible avatar in SoV could be somehow related to one of the main villains or could be more important than both Alm/Celica and the other characters but like I said I wouldn't mind one if they're not.

 

41 minutes ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

Easy.

 

Avatar has a tome or a rod that lets it travel to Alm and Celica instantaneously.

Would that be BR's Leo's warping tome?

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48 minutes ago, unique said:

chris is easily the best character in fe12 and is loved by pretty much everyone and is revealed to have been the real hero of archanea while fe3 didn't actually happen since marth is apparently really weak and insecure, despite any of the development he had in shadow dragon

corrin is a prince of two kingdoms whose siblings all love and trust him, all but one of them on the side who barely know him immediately accept him as an ally despite the fact that he's lived his life up until as a prince of the opposing kingdom that hates them and don't have a bit of suspicion about him even after their mother dies shortly after his arrival

robin is a whole different beast but i haven't played awakening in a long time so i'm not sure if i recall everything correctly

 

I'll concede that Chris is a Gary Stu.

 

However, Corrin makes a load of mistakes and his actions lead to GENOCIDE at times. He certainly isn't a Stu.

 

Also, Hoshido trusts Corn-man because they believe that he's their brother.

Edited by Dragonage2ftw
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1 hour ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

Easy.

Avatar has a tome or a rod that lets it travel to Alm and Celica instantaneously.

It was a terrible plot device the Black Knight used, and it would be even worse here.

It was just dumb in RD, in echoes it would be dumb and shoehorned.

Both paths are implied to be happening simultaneously, not one after the other.

Edited by ChibiToastExplosion
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2 hours ago, InfinityAlex said:

Mind PMing me why? As a proponent of the Avatar (in original games at least, not remakes), I'm interested in hearing your vehement hatred, but obviously here isn't the place to do it.

 

1 hour ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

Why, though?

There's not really much to it. They're ruined every single game the plots of every game they're present in (except for FE7 which doesn't really count but if you do count Mark, you can still not create a tactician at all in that game). And Kris is the worst of them all. I wrote about Kris on Reddit. 

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26 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

 

There's not really much to it. They're ruined every single game the plots of every game they're present in (except for FE7 which doesn't really count but if you do count Mark, you can still not create a tactician at all in that game). And Kris is the worst of them all. I wrote about Kris on Reddit. 

And if you're referring to Frey you're actually really wrong about how FE11 plays it up or you're analyzing something that isn't there

marth's characterization to stubbornly refuse the sacrifice isn't just whisked away. He argues with Malledus constantly and we are never given any indication he ever gets over it, even when Frey turns out to be alive.

in fact Marth's entire characterization is to basically be the embodiment of resetters. This is consistent in FE11, FE12, and even in Awakening he says it "doesn't feel proper" to leave anyone behind and implies he personally would not consider any battle won by sacrifice a victory. This was implicitly the case with Shadow Dragon and New Mystery didn't just magically pull it out of its ass.

the scene with Kris and the boats is mostly irrelevant as it stands. It doesn't change the overal impact nor does it completely change Marth's motive of obsessively trying to keep everyone alive. He was simply trying to talk Kris out of going back out of worry like he would with literally anyone else. Kris is not special in that regard; if anyone is holding him up it's Jagen but that in and of itself is arguable anyway since most people in Marth's army are probably "more than capable". In FE11 he didn't really change characterization based on his actions; at best he puts on a face of bravery but his inexperience shows in a lot of areas, most notably Frey. Marth's secondary trait is omnibenevolence and a story arc of coming to stop seeking revenge. This is mainly present with Gra and still exists in the original FE3, but Katarina serves to better exemplify that aspect of Marth.

The actually important character growth of Marth present in book 2 is intact. Marth still stands up to Lang when advised by Jagen, still chooses to hear Lorenz out instead of butchering him on sight, his benevolence is extended by a much more concerted attempt to save the wolfguard than the original game, he brings Malice out of poverty as well... Marth's important characterization is still intact and New Mystery sort of implies through Elibe Marth puts on the bravest face he can and presents a face of confidence. That makes him a much more interesting character than in 3 because in 3 he whines and complains too much according to you; but they imply despite being the same character he chooses to put his responsibilities first and present the face of confidence by that logic.

and Kris has pretty much fuck all to do that any of this; he/she is so irrelevant to the main chapters of 12 it makes me laugh to see people blow it up this much with maybe again the exception of the Adrah Pass thing which is a very minor detail to start with.

ill probably edit in the rest of my point later but I have to go into town so

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems
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39 minutes ago, Ranger Jack Walker said:

 

There's not really much to it. They're ruined every single game the plots of every game they're present in (except for FE7 which doesn't really count but if you do count Mark, you can still not create a tactician at all in that game). And Kris is the worst of them all. I wrote about Kris on Reddit. 

How did Corrin and Robin ruin the plots they were in, though?

 

Robin barely had anything to do with Awakening.

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You're not going to seriously tell me that Kris is irrelevant when the game literally starts with a narration of how Kris is the second most important person during the events of FE12 who selflessly lets Marth take all the credit in end, are you? Because that would be extremely silly.

19 minutes ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

Robin barely had anything to do with Awakening.

Aside from completely hijacking Chrom's spotlight. Not that Chrom is even a decently written character by any means.

Edited by Ranger Jack Walker
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24 minutes ago, Dragonage2ftw said:

Robin barely had anything to do with Awakening.

What? Robin is pretty much central to the endgame arc, all the way up to literally causing a secondary ending due to their "sacrifice". How does that constitute "barely anything" and not "literally kills the final boss"?

As for Corrin........

Corrin: You intend to buy peace with death? Madness! *proceeds with the second half of Conquest*

Edited by Party Moth
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