Should there be an Avatar?

[B.Leu]

If it allowed me to bang Alm, Camus, or Celica, I would take back everythng I said about the MUs.
Breaking pairings is my fetish, it's one of the major reasons I did not like FE12: I couldn't have Marth or Caeda.

 

... kind of too late to do that joke huh ? Gotta admit though, Celica is hot.
Breaking pairings however, is indeed one of my pleasure just not a fetish. In FE4, I went my way to pair Ares and Nanna together. and I'm proud of it.

Edited April 1, 2017 by B.Leu

[Lawful Angry]

Since it's a remake, i don't think there will be, but Heroes of Light and Shadow did, so i'm not sure anymore. I'm voting yes, just because i like the concept, but then only if the avatar is like the one in Heroes of Light and Shadow instead of Awakening and Fates.

[wigglepuppy]

Absolutely. The reason why people didn't like an avatar in the first place was because they were shoehorned into the story and the other characters kiss the floor they walk on (I'm looking at you Fates!!!). The Avatar was never the problem, they're implementation of the mechanic was. So yes I really would like an Avatar but a good one

[GAIDENBRO]

Should an avatar be in Echoes?

 

 

To be frank. Hell no. 

 

I try to watch my profanity by avatars grind my gears by how much they don't belong in Fire Emblem. They're always been nothing but cheap player suck ups that ALWAYS been out of place no matter what the case was. In a pre-existing story like this no matter anyone says an avatar would ruin everything.

 

In FE7 if stuff is serious when they turn to the camera in true Dora the Explorer fashion looking silly. Mark also gets way too much praise just to once more suck up to the player. Mark's existence was so irrelevant you could've removed him and nothing changed.

 

Kris single-handedly dragged down New Mystery with his toxicity. He's a gary stu that derailed Marth and Jagen,took away some of their great moments and claimed them as their own. Kris gets nothing but kiss-up. It doesn't help how Kris is the best unit in the game either. Everyone is way too quick to open up to that piece of utter garbage too.

 

Robin was a perfect blend until late in the game where Robin took over everything and literally became the final boss. There was so much better ways they could've handled that trainwreck.

 

The less said about Corrin the better. 

 

If the avatar feature is removed for good I will not miss it: ever. Kaga was right when he said it wouldn't fit in Fire Emblem.

Edited April 3, 2017 by GAIDENBRO

[GAIDENBRO]

On 2/24/2017 at 11:51 AM, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

I specifically said irrelevant to the main chapters

 

and Kris is irrelevant to the main chapters

Kris gets the prologue and a portion of the Gaiden chapters (mainly the last two ones) all to himself. I'm not even going to try and contest that, even if it gives the 7th Platoon some much needed characterization (I don't even think they SPOKE in Book 2) but Kris is still the lord in the prologue. He gets some focus in a few gaidens, but Katarina has a pretty standalone story that isn't completely "avatar worship" and only intertwines with the avatar's story in the prologue and last two gaidens. Most of her story is a parallel of Nino's story and Katarina gets plenty of standalone moments (and an entire DLC chapter that is literal torture in how difficult it is ) wholly disjointed from Kris that she is a decent enough character on her own; her ending is even more Marth centric than it is MU centric, as she becomes essentially Jagen's replacement once he inevitably croaks (Cain's ending) as shown by her ending title and reinforced by her status in Awakening. It's also worth noting Katarina and Cecil have a specific character synergy as well, so Katarina is by no means entirely anchored down to MU.

And the issue here is Kris doesn't really do anything significant in FE12 outside of the prologue and Gaiden chapters. Hardin is still most likely killed by Marth, Marth still is responsible for sparing Gra's recruits, Marth is still the one who has to assemble the Fire Emblem, still the one who gets starlight from Michalis, etc. Kris/MU12's contributions to the main story are either irrelevant or minor unless you go out of your way to actually use MU12 and do things like have MU12 kill Gharnef as a Mage or have MU12 kill Hardin himself. You can bench MU12 if you hate him that fucking much; MU13 is integral to the final battle and MU14 is the main lord, MU12 can be benched pretty much the whole way through outside of recruiting Katarina (and maybe one or two other characters I'm forgetting in Gaiden chapters) and his imprint is almost laughably small in the main chapters and FE12 is still firmly Marth's story, unlike FE13 where we don't even know Chrom's father's name and Chrom's storyline gets pretty much completely ground to a halt once we start going to Valm in order for MU13 to take the story role of main lord.

There's not one actually important thing MU12 is forced to do in the grand scale of the War of Heroes aside from maybe the Adrah Pass thing. The boat thing for example is irrelevant to the grand scale of the war and Jagen was already on it. The Lang thing is irrelevant because again, Jagen was already doing that and it's still ultimately Marth's fucking decision in the first place, plus Marth already heard Lorenz out in chapter 1.

Marth giving more credit than MU probably deserves in the end of it all speaks volumes more for Marth being a benevolent and self sacrificing character who tries to put on a brave face than it says anything about fucking MU in hindsight of FE12. And that's what Marth is, a benevolent and self sacrificing character, not contrary to FE12 but especially because of FE12, where they establish he isn't just depriving himself of physical and interpersonal comforts but also suppressing his own personal emotions in order to put on the most professional face that his country deserves in FE11/12 rather than being the loudly whiny wanker he is in FE3. He's still insecure on the inside and he's still ultimately the same person, but he doesn't selfishly whine about it and instead he tries to wear the face of confidence.

that is an immensely respectable trait that didn't exist prior to FE12 (FE11 doesn't elaborate on it being a facade and just acts like they completely changed his inner character) and I think 12's contributions to all characters including Marth far outweigh anything MU does. Marth is so self sacrificing he doesn't even think he deserves credit after all the hell he's done. Marth is probably the most humble lord in the series because of FE12, and thusly my most respected lord next to Sileph and Roy.

 

The intro is most likely assuming you're going to be using Kris to kill someone important like Lang, Hardin, Gharnef, or maybe even Medeus, talking about the general contribution of MU if you field him a lot, referring to him being a backstage bodyguard of Marth which, frankly, isn't worth writing about in the history books even if it's a technically important contribution (which several other characters like Jagen do), or it's referring to Katarina's subplot. Kris literally doesn't make any meaningful contributions to the major elements of the war of heroes outside of parroting Jagen and pointing to Adrah Pass.

in other words you can literally make the intro exaggerative or an outright liar if you want to based purely on how you field MU which is mildly humorous to me. Unless you field him constantly or have him kill a major character MU doesn't do anything too significant.

the game specifically lets you bench Kris after the prologue; I think the developers explicitly intended the MU not to meddle with the plot too much or almost at all if players wanted to, which is the opposite approach of Robin and Corrin which were made the main protagonists. And trying to argue Chrom is the main protagonist of Awakening past the Gangrel arc is laughable with how seldom we learn about him and his backstory before we even go there.

Kris and Corrin can die in a fire.

[Finian]

On 1/18/2017 at 8:59 PM, AbsoluteZer0Nova said:

Seeing as how it's a remake I kinda doubt it especially since they didn't show anything like that when it's just 4 months away. But then again Heroes of Light and Shadow did so it's possible. I wouldn't really care either way, but I suppose I'll vote yes just because I'm not entirely against it.

I voted no, but I think that out of all the FE games, Gaiden is the one that could most naturally incorporate an Avatar. I like the idea of an Avatar that isn't a main character, but still has supports and is a decent unit.

In Garden, we have the group of villagers you recruit at the beginning (Grey, Cliff, etc.). I think it would actually work pretty well to have one of the villagers be an Avatar character. That way, you're Avatar is there from the beginning but not particularly vital to the story.

Said Avatar could have supports with the other villagers, but not with more important plot characters.

I think that if an avatar were to be added, that would be the best way to go about it.

[LoyalKing32]

They never belonged in the game and I'm sure glad they aren't returning in Echoes

[LoyalKing32]

On 4/3/2017 at 1:59 AM, GAIDENBRO said:

Kris and Corrin can die in a fire.

Calm down they're not that bad.....

[ZoeTrent]

22 hours ago, Finian said:

I voted no, but I think that out of all the FE games, Gaiden is the one that could most naturally incorporate an Avatar. I like the idea of an Avatar that isn't a main character, but still has supports and is a decent unit.

In Garden, we have the group of villagers you recruit at the beginning (Grey, Cliff, etc.). I think it would actually work pretty well to have one of the villagers be an Avatar character. That way, you're Avatar is there from the beginning but not particularly vital to the story.

Said Avatar could have supports with the other villagers, but not with more important plot characters.

I think that if an avatar were to be added, that would be the best way to go about it.

I agree. I think that if you did an avatar in the way that Robin was done before they started taking center stage it would work out perfectly fine. I also think this was the perfect game to do that with for the same reason you said.  I don't really mind that it didn't happen though and completely understand why it didn't being a remake. Plus I would rather never have an avatar again then have Corrin or anything like them.

I did also love how Robin's role as the tactician tied in with being the Avatar and how they even played into it with some lines. I think they were a nearly perfect re implementation of the idea of the Tactician from FE7 (which was lame and lackluster).

Edited April 16, 2017 by ZoeTrent

[Finian]

22 hours ago, ZoeTrent said:

I agree. I think that if you did an avatar in the way that Robin was done before they started taking center stage it would work out perfectly fine. I also think this was the perfect game to do that with for the same reason you said.  I don't really mind that it didn't happen though and completely understand why it didn't being a remake. Plus I would rather never have an avatar again then have Corrin or anything like them.

I did also love how Robin's role as the tactician tied in with being the Avatar and how they even played into it with some lines. I think they were a nearly perfect re implementation of the idea of the Tactician from FE7 (which was lame and lackluster).

I have to disagree with you about Robin being well executed. He was certainly better than Corrin, but that's a low bar to clear. Robin was still far too important to the main story, being G***a and all.

If they do an Avatar again, they really do need to be a side character.

[Finian]

22 hours ago, ZoeTrent said:

I agree. I think that if you did an avatar in the way that Robin was done before they started taking center stage it would work out perfectly fine. I also think this was the perfect game to do that with for the same reason you said.  I don't really mind that it didn't happen though and completely understand why it didn't being a remake. Plus I would rather never have an avatar again then have Corrin or anything like them.

I did also love how Robin's role as the tactician tied in with being the Avatar and how they even played into it with some lines. I think they were a nearly perfect re implementation of the idea of the Tactician from FE7 (which was lame and lackluster).

I have to disagree with you about Robin being well executed. He was certainly better than Corrin, but that's a low bar to clear. Robin was still far too important to the main story, being G***a and all.

If they do an Avatar again, they really do need to be a side character.

[ZoeTrent]

5 hours ago, Finian said:

I have to disagree with you about Robin being well executed. He was certainly better than Corrin, but that's a low bar to clear. Robin was still far too important to the main story, being G***a and all.

If they do an Avatar again, they really do need to be a side character.

That's what "before they started taking center stage" means.

[Finian]

2 minutes ago, ZoeTrent said:

That's what "before they started taking center stage" means.

Oh, okay. Got it.

[NekoKnight]

15 hours ago, Finian said:

I have to disagree with you about Robin being well executed. He was certainly better than Corrin, but that's a low bar to clear. Robin was still far too important to the main story, being G***a and all.

If they do an Avatar again, they really do need to be a side character.

I'm curious as to what you think "too important to the plot" means. Why was it bad that Robin is G***a? Had Chrom been G***a instead, would that be fine? 

[hauteclere]

I wasn't too interested in an Avatar at first but knowing more now I am legitimately sad that I can't ship Python with an Avatar named JavaScript

Imo the biggest problem with Avatars having huge story relevance is that it usually results in a lot of player worship and turns the Avatar into a Mary Sue/Gary Stu

[Sunwoo]

5 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm curious as to what you think "too important to the plot" means. Why was it bad that Robin is G***a? Had Chrom been G***a instead, would that be fine? 

Putting in my own two cents, I think the main issue with Robin is that they tried to combine too many FE character tropes into one supermassive character. Robin is a player avatar and the tactician. They are also a plot important character who cannot die and causes a game over. They are also the "Ninian" or the "Deirdre" of the plot. But they are also a hero.

I think the last two character traits combined with the first is what causes the conflict. The "Ninian/Deirdre" characters aren't heroes. They are victims of circumstance who must be helped by the hero and may have a tragic ending, but don't get to be the heroes themselves. Robin is a character who is important to the villain's plot, but they get to take control of their own destiny and be the hero that overshadows who the real hero should've been (Chrom). They're also the player avatar who gets some special treatment in gameplay and plot, exacerbating factors.

Robin (and Corrin's) problem is that they tried to combine too many aspects of different FE characters to make them all-special, which basically meant they take away attention from other characters while being praised because they were also avatars.

[Finian]

9 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm curious as to what you think "too important to the plot" means. Why was it bad that Robin is G***a? Had Chrom been G***a instead, would that be fine? 

I think Robin being you know who works in the context of Awakening's story, but as a personal preference I wouldn't want another avatar being as important to the plot, especially after Corrin.

[JJ48]

9 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I'm curious as to what you think "too important to the plot" means. Why was it bad that Robin is G***a? Had Chrom been G***a instead, would that be fine? 

What's with the censorship?  What's wrong with Robin being a Geisha?

[NekoKnight]

4 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Robin (and Corrin's) problem is that they tried to combine too many aspects of different FE characters to make them all-special, which basically meant they take away attention from other characters while being praised because they were also avatars.

Fair enough. I think most of those roles can reasonably fit into a single character, but it wasn't a perfectly executed concept.

50 minutes ago, Finian said:

I think Robin being you know who works in the context of Awakening's story, but as a personal preference I wouldn't want another avatar being as important to the plot, especially after Corrin.

I think a lot of people are hoping for a non-main character Avatar just because they don't have faith in IS's ability to write one. The avatars are pre-established characters that you can customize so there shouldn't be a problem of writing a good one if you can do that for a main character that you can't customize. Player worship isn't integral to the avatar.

4 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

What's with the censorship?  What's wrong with Robin being a Geisha?

You fool, now everyone will know Fire Emblem is a shameless dating simulator for weaboos!

Edited April 18, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Morrav]

I'm more interested in the child units, as I hope they return. Although I do want avatars back, I fell like the story would not be involving without them.

[Sentinel07]

To be fully honest, if Intelligent Systems wants to continue with Avatars, I think they seriously need to take a look at how Atlus has handled their characters and make them silent.

Let's be real, calling Robin and Corrin avatars is misleading in a way. The player has little to no input over the characters other than their appearance. If there's one thing I've come to appreciate since playing Atlus' games, it's that there's value in a silent character, as it allows the player to pretty much take control of the character's growth without it overshadowing other characters.

[Sentinel07]

9 minutes ago, Morrav said:

I'm more interested in the child units, as I hope they return. Although I do want avatars back, I fell like the story would not be involving without them.

So you're trying to say a story is meaningless without a self-insert? I'd say that's a pretty limiting viewpoint.

[Hero of the Fire Emblems]

3 hours ago, Sentinel07 said:

To be fully honest, if Intelligent Systems wants to continue with Avatars, I think they seriously need to take a look at how Atlus has handled their characters and make them silent.

Let's be real, calling Robin and Corrin avatars is misleading in a way. The player has little to no input over the characters other than their appearance. If there's one thing I've come to appreciate since playing Atlus' games, it's that there's value in a silent character, as it allows the player to pretty much take control of the character's growth without it overshadowing other characters.

Actually....

 

Awakening DID have a silent protagonist option as one of the voice options in the Japanese version. the dialogue changed so that Chrom acted like Proxi does in Hyrule Warriors- this gave Chrom a lot more characterization and made the avatar more a true avatar

 

i have no fucking idea how support convos worked out but the option sounds enticing enough that it should have at least been a paid DLC option (as far as I know 8-4 was too fucking lazy to actually localize the silent option dialogue, just like they're too lazy to do lore check on games like Tellius and we get things like Naesala the Evil Swan king). Japanese Fates had no such option but Awakening did.

so Intsys actually did exactly what you're suggesting and complaints about avatar fuckups might be better directed to 8-4, the localization team....

Edited May 17, 2017 by Hero of the Fire Emblems

[Wayward Alchemist]

I'm glad that we didn't get an avatar in this game, it's really refreshing and adds a lot to the cast as a whole since they aren't spending all of their time circle jerking the avatar like they did for Corrin. That said, I think that replacing Faye with an Avatar villager wouldn't have been too terrible. You could choose whether they stayed in Ram Village with Alm and Mycen or go with Celica to Nomah's monastery. They could just join in with Tobin and Gray/Mae and Bowey in their commentary on the story so they could at least appear in the story somewhat without taking attention away from Alm and Celica.

[Finian]

On 4/18/2017 at 7:59 AM, NekoKnight said:

Fair enough. I think most of those roles can reasonably fit into a single character, but it wasn't a perfectly executed concept.

I think a lot of people are hoping for a non-main character Avatar just because they don't have faith in IS's ability to write one. The avatars are pre-established characters that you can customize so there shouldn't be a problem of writing a good one if you can do that for a main character that you can't customize. Player worship isn't integral to the avatar.

You fool, now everyone will know Fire Emblem is a shameless dating simulator for weaboos!

Part of the reason I'm not a fan of the Avatar as a main character is that I don't like customizing and naming my own character and then having their personality completely out of my hands. I like the idea of an Avatar as a villager whose base stats and growths can be influenced by the player, but who is otherwise a silent side character. The avatar doesn't need to be special.