Hopes/Fears for Shadows of Valentia

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, Wraith said:

I'm excited that Gaiden is getting a remake, because of all the other games it was the one that needed it the most. My biggest fear is that this remake is being made in the Post-Awakening era of FE. Don't get me wrong, I like Awakening and Fates despite their flaws, but I fear that IS will shove boatloads of fan service into the game in order to appease newer fans. I don't want Takumi or Xander randomly appearing as playable characters in Echoes for one simple reason: Gaiden is NOT their story! One of the biggest problems with Fates was the inclusion of Awakening characters who didn't contribute anything to the plot and were put in the game solely for fanservice. From what I've seen so far I'm still optimistic about Echoes. All IS has to do with the plot of Echoes is flesh out the original story, add some NEW characters, and have a support system to give depth to the cast. Just keep fanservice on a very short leash and this game will be golden.

I find this fear rathe amusing considering Gaiden was the first game to pull that trick by shoving Camus and the Pegasus sisters in there for no reason.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Jotari

[Sidereal Wraith]

31 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I find this fear rathe amusing considering Awakening was the first game to pull that trick by shoving Camus and the Pegasus sisters in there for no reason.

The reasons why I'm fine with Camus and the Whitewings being in Gaiden:

A) Archanea and Valentia exist in the same world and the events of both SD and Gaiden happen around the same time.

B) Camus' (a.k.a. Zeke's) appearance in Gaiden contributes to his overall story and character development, even if the amnesia is a forced plot point.

C) Having the Whitewings participate in Gaiden helps to explain Est's disappearance at the end of Mystery of the Emblem, for it can be inferred that she ran away to Valentia and Abel followed after her.

D) I can forgive Gaiden for reusing characters from SD because it was the second game in the series and as such FE, as a whole, was still searching for its identity as a series.

 

Why having Awakening characters in Fates didn't work:

A) The events of Awakening and Fates take place in different dimensions.

B) Hidden Truths 1 and 2 did a piss pour job explaining why Inigo, Severa, and Owain are in Fates to begin with, on top of retconning their character endings from Awakening.

C) As far as I know, Fates provides NO reasons for why Gaius, Cordelia, and Tharja appear as second-generation characters in Fates. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

D) Fates didn't use this opportunity to flesh out any of these characters anymore so then Awakening did.  

E) The fanservice of Fates comes off as pure pandering to fans of Awakening when compared to the reused characters in Gaiden. This is the case because all the Awakening characters who appear in Fates are incredibly popular amongst the FE community.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Wraith

[Jotari]

5 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The reasons why I'm fine with Camus and the Whitewings being in Gaiden:

A) Archanea and Valentia exist in the same world and the events of both SD and Gaiden happen around the same time.

B) Camus' (a.k.a. Zeke's) appearance in Gaiden contributes to his overall story and character development, even if the amnesia is a forced plot point.

C) Having the Whitewings participate in Gaiden helps to explain Est's disappearance at the end of Mystery of the Emblem, for it can be inferred that she ran away to Valentia and Abel followed after her.

D) I can forgive Gaiden for reusing characters from SD because it was the second game in the series and as such FE as a whole was still searching for its identity as a series.

 

Why the Awakening characters being in Fates didn't work:

A) The events of Awakening and Fates take place in different dimensions.

B) Hidden Truths 1 and 2 does a piss pour job explaining why Inigo, Severa, and Owain are in Fates to begin with on top of retconning their character endings from Awakening.

C) As far as I know, Fates provides NO reasoning as to why Gaius, Cordelia, and Tharja appear as second-generation characters. (Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong)

D) Fates didn't use this opportunity to flesh out any of these characters anymore so then Awakening did.  

E) The fanservice of Fates came off as pure pandering to fans of Awakening when compared to the reused characters in Gaiden.

 

Mostly playing devil's advocate here (as I really don't care either way) but to address your points against Fates.

A) That's a design choice they went with. There's absolutely nothing to prevent Fates from being physically in the same world. Valm and Ylisse are hardly the only continents on that planet. We know of at least one (possibly two) others. You might find it to be the wrong choice for your own reasons but it wasn't a limitation of the setting that makes the cameos forced. They could have decided anything they want when conceiving the plot, Fates' (strangely unnamed) continent wasn't a preestablished setting. I suspect they go with different dimensions because it allows to keep the different canons neater and stop them interfering with each other (so questions like why the Dragon Laguz work like Manaketes can be easily side stepped).

B) The characters appearance in Fates does nothing to interfere with the canon of their own endings in Awakening. All of them were said to go off on a quest of their own and in Fates all of them left Nohr and presumably returned to the Ylisse. That was simply one of their quests mentioned. Hidden Truths also explains their presence their completely. Ananakos needed some people to help defeat his evil half so he found some fan favourite random warriors to help him. Being that Valla is apperantly in a different dimension itself it's perfectly consistent that Anankos should have the powers to do everything he did in the DLC. The real question is why the three of them did feck all and never mentioned their connection to Ananakos at all throughout the main game. That's what happens when you go with half measures and try to make cameos feel relevant but not over shadowing.

B) Subsection B) Ests ending in the original FE1 mentioned nothing about her disappearing. The ending in Book 1 of Mystery of the Emblem was a retroactive one to explain her presence in Gaiden (an already released game). The original ending simply said she fell in love with a knight meaning there was less of a basis for her to appear as a cameo then any of the child characters from Awakening. And as (relatively) good as Camus' arc eventually ended up being they literally had to revive him from the dead to get away with it.

C) Gaius, Cordelia and Tharja don't appear as second gen characters. Expies of them do. It's not something unfamiliar within the Fire Emblem series. With such phenomenally large cast they're bound to reuse character concepts. The only difference here is that it was extremely blatant and done for the sake of fanservice. Nevertheless I do consider it something completely separate to established characters physically appearing in different games.

D) True, for the most part. I think we did get to see a bit more of Owain's insecurities bleed through into his Odin persona.

E) I wasn't alive in 1991 when Gaiden was released but I can't imagine the cameos back then were viewed of as anything other than pure pandering (for better or for worse).

All in all if you can confess that the cameos in Gaiden worked then you shouldn't fear the idea of cameos themselves but how they're handled in future installments.

[Dinar87]

I agree with others that I don't want too much fan service in echoes as the awakening pandering in fates felt pretty forced and I would've preferred to have entirely new characters as opposed to the awakening kiddies again. However, it'd be pretty cool if you could use the FE amiibo to play as characters like Marth, Robin and Ike in Gaiden but that's the only exception I'd make for fan service characters.  

As for hopes and fears? Well I already made a topic expressing my worries that this game could be too faithful to the original but I essentially pissed of a lot of people because it turns out a shit load of people love shadow dragon. How could a game like this be too faithful you ask? Well..

1. Have a bare bones story and no supports.
2. Have third/fourth tiers for some classes but not others for no special reason.
3. Have the dungeon and town elements be super tiny and offer very little to do compared to most rpgs.
4. Don't fix peoples' complaints about the maps
5. Have basically no new characters and classes, let alone things like the weapon triangle.

Look, I can respect that some people literally just want gaiden remade and that's fine. But I'm just concerned that if they don't appeal to non-gaiden fans at all then the game will tank and we'll never get remakes of the other older fire emblem games. THAT'S why I'm worried.

[Sidereal Wraith]

2 hours ago, Jotari said:

Mostly playing devil's advocate here (as I really don't care either way) but to address your points against Fates.

A) That's a design choice they went with. There's absolutely nothing to prevent Fates from being physically in the same world. Valm and Ylisse are hardly the only continents on that planet. We know of at least one (possibly two) others. You might find it to be the wrong choice for your own reasons but it wasn't a limitation of the setting that makes the cameos forced. They could have decided anything they want when conceiving the plot, Fates' (strangely unnamed) continent wasn't a preestablished setting. I suspect they go with different dimensions because it allows to keep the different canons neater and stop them interfering with each other (so questions like why the Dragon Laguz work like Manaketes can be easily side stepped).

B) The characters appearance in Fates does nothing to interfere with the canon of their own endings in Awakening. All of them were said to go off on a quest of their own and in Fates all of them left Nohr and presumably returned to the Ylisse. That was simply one of their quests mentioned. Hidden Truths also explains their presence their completely. Ananakos needed some people to help defeat his evil half so he found some fan favourite random warriors to help him. Being that Valla is apperantly in a different dimension itself it's perfectly consistent that Anankos should have the powers to do everything he did in the DLC. The real question is why the three of them did feck all and never mentioned their connection to Ananakos at all throughout the main game. That's what happens when you go with half measures and try to make cameos feel relevant but not over shadowing.

B) Subsection B) Ests ending in the original FE1 mentioned nothing about her disappearing. The ending in Book 1 of Mystery of the Emblem was a retroactive one to explain her presence in Gaiden (an already released game). The original ending simply said she fell in love with a knight meaning there was less of a basis for her to appear as a cameo then any of the child characters from Awakening. And as (relatively) good as Camus' arc eventually ended up being they literally had to revive him from the dead to get away with it.

C) Gaius, Cordelia and Tharja don't appear as second gen characters. Expies of them do. It's not something unfamiliar within the Fire Emblem series. With such phenomenally large cast they're bound to reuse character concepts. The only difference here is that it was extremely blatant and done for the sake of fanservice. Nevertheless I do consider it something completely separate to established characters physically appearing in different games.

D) True, for the most part. I think we did get to see a bit more of Owain's insecurities bleed through into his Odin persona.

E) I wasn't alive in 1991 when Gaiden was released but I can't imagine the cameos back then were viewed of as anything other than pure pandering (for better or for worse).

All in all if you can confess that the cameos in Gaiden worked then you shouldn't fear the idea of cameos themselves but how they're handled in future installments.

A) Its an example of incredibly poor writing and design. The inclusion of the Awakening characters comes off as forced rather than organic. I can buy the prospect of characters from SD appearing in Gaiden because both games exist in the same world and around the same time. This is why I'm okay with characters from Binding Blade appearing in Blazing Sword and vice-verse. Anakanos travelling to another dimension to find dragon slayers to help him kill himself and help his son/daughter, only to have this plot point destroyed by the curse of Valla reeks of poorly thought-out story telling. I.E. the explanation is longwinded and nonsensical. 

B) The whole idea of the character endings in Awakening is to give closure to the characters and even get the characters married depending on the player's choice. By having the option to marry off Inigo, Severa, and Owian in both games runs the risk of getting their marriage endings in Awakening retconned in the process and invalidating the player's agency in Awakening. It also doesn't help that the original Japanese version of Hidden Truths heavily implies that Inigo, Owain, and Severa in Fates are actually the same characters from The Future Past and not from Awakening. Also Inigo is killed in the Birthright path, making it impossible for him to return home.

B Subsection) I was referring to Est's ending in Mystery of the Emblem, not SD. Even thought IS revived Camus I feel that this addition added something to the already paper thin plot of Gaiden and helped to apply some more character conflict for Nyna in Mystery of the Emblem. The Awakening characters in Fates are superfluous, adding nothing to the plot and instead raise several questions about why they are here in the first place. These questions are not answered main game and were only given in two DLC maps later on as an afterthought.

C) Even thought archetypes do appear regularly in FE, these expies are still nothing more then blatant fan service. The expies might as well be Gaius, Cordelia, and Tharja, because these second-generation characters are literally nothing more then carbon copies of already existing characters from Awakening. At least in the other games the archetype characters were given different names, appearances, and backstories as opposed to the characters they were similar too.

D) Agreed

E) I still think that more leeway can be given to the FE series in 1992 because it was still young and fledging, as opposed to the FE series of 2015. The appearances of SD characters in Gaiden added something to the game, whereas the inclusion of Awakening characters to Fates did nothing except give use two more second-generation characters and raised several questions about the continuity of the series which then only got explained  in two paid DLC maps. 

  

Edited January 24, 2017 by Wraith

[Pete-of-the-Forge]

Since I'm kind of a pessimist, let's get the negatives out of the way:

The art - It's very beautiful, but I worry that all the guys will be pretty and the girls would be cute or moe or whatever. This seems to be the artist's m.o. going off what I've seen of their other work. I would prefer some diversity in the cast. I also have the fear in the back of my mind that the models will all look the same minus hair color like Shadow Dragon did, though the fact that we have a green cavalier might disprove that.

Fates stuff - While we only have an inkling that they're might be a customizable villager, I fear they might fall back on what made Fates (and Awakening) successful (avatar, marriage, children, etc.) without trying to see if they can make a profit without them.

The translation - One of my complaints from Fates was that the localization was too joke-y. Early games might've been a bit dry, but I'd prefer that over the self-references, memes, and stuff like "that's dragon for I love you" and "*wag* *wag*".

Meanwhile my hopes:

Towns - They could always opt for something similar to Fates' My Castle for exploring towns (like the original), but I hope that exploring towns uses the same perspective that's used for dungeons. Seriously, ever since FE7, I've wanted that kind of roaming in Fire Emblem, and the fact that I might get that is really exciting.

Unique weapon icons - no need for explanation. I really missed it in Fates.

More character development - 'New Mystery' apparently did this more than Shadow Dragon, so feasibly Shadows of Valentia would follow suit.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Pete-of-the-Forge

[Tryhard]

A little analysis of the trailer including some things I (and perhaps others) missed:

https://imgur.com/gallery/apuko

Looks like they changed that map at least a little, I didn't notice that.

[Dinar87]

15 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

A little analysis of the trailer including some things I (and perhaps others) missed:

https://imgur.com/gallery/apuko

Looks like they changed that map at least a little, I didn't notice that.

It looks like they're taking some things from gaiden (like the lack of tomes for magic, third tiers, etc...) and updating them (using magic possibly doesn't drain hp like in the original) somewhat. Screw what I said earlier about sales and it being outdated and stuff because this looks too interesting of a game to pass on. If done right, this could potentially be my favorite fire emblem of all time!! Also contrary to what I said earlier, if it's 1:1 of gaiden just with updated graphics it'd be a good way to see how well a "hard core" or "veteran pleasing" fire emblem game sells these days since I know a number of people (not me though) were disappointed with fates.

[デッド]

The only thing I hope for the gaiden remake that the bow range is nerfed, PvP returns from Fates for replayablity after finishing the main story, and DLC.

[Dinar87]

1 minute ago, 0w0 said:

The only thing I hope for the gaiden remake that the bow range is nerfed, PvP returns from Fates for replayablity after finishing the main story, and DLC.

I disagree. Having bows be insanely overpowered sounds extremely fun and that sort of brokenness is what made third tiers so much fun in radiant dawn so it'd be a shame imo to nerf the fun aspects of gaiden. Then again, if that's what gaiden fans want then I'll go along with it since this game is for them. 

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Tryhard said:

A little analysis of the trailer including some things I (and perhaps others) missed:

https://imgur.com/gallery/apuko

Looks like they changed that map at least a little, I didn't notice that.

I think that new wall might just be the edge of the map. A more exciting edge than empty plains.

[pinguyFrank]

My hopes for the game are that the gameplay features are well updated (like the weapon triangle, more weapons, adjustments to mechanics like spells or bows range  and i couldn't care less for the game to have supports). In my opinion a graphic update would not be enough for the game success.

[ClassyWolf]

On 25.1.2017 at 10:08 PM, Dinar87 said:

I disagree. Having bows be insanely overpowered sounds extremely fun and that sort of brokenness is what made third tiers so much fun in radiant dawn so it'd be a shame imo to nerf the fun aspects of gaiden. Then again, if that's what gaiden fans want then I'll go along with it since this game is for them. 

And with it we also need the snipers pulling their bow out of their chest

 

 

Joking aside, I pretty much agree what most have said here, that they keep fairly faithful, but know when to insert a bit of their own flavor, because the NES fire emblems really haven't aged that well and some things really need an update, like the story could be expanded, supports, maybe tweek the leveling to not take forever.

Edited January 27, 2017 by ClassyWolf
Had the text after the image in the spoiler tags by mistake

[Slyfox]

On 1/24/2017 at 1:20 PM, Wraith said:

B) The whole idea of the character endings in Awakening is to give closure to the characters and even get the characters married depending on the player's choice. By having the option to marry off Inigo, Severa, and Owian in both games runs the risk of getting their marriage endings in Awakening retconned in the process and invalidating the player's agency in Awakening. It also doesn't help that the original Japanese version of Hidden Truths heavily implies that Inigo, Owain, and Severa in Fates are actually the same characters from The Future Past and not from Awakening. Also Inigo is killed in the Birthright path, making it impossible for him to return home.

 

I'd argue against this point. Awakening and Fates pretty much confirm that there are an infinite amount of timelines. Events are not always the same.  Inigo, Owain and Severa could simply be from timelines in Awakening where they didn't get married (just as they could have died in some playthroughs, or never existed due to their parents never getting together, etc). The trio that appears in Fates are just from a select amount of possible timelines. It really is your choice when it comes to your canon.

The way it works is basically how it is for Future Trunks from Dragon Ball. You can go into the past or future, change events if you want to, but it doesn't effect your timeline. That's what Lucina and the other kids did. Their timeline still exists in it's own dimension, despite them traveling to the past.

So, the Hidden Truths reveals that Anankos recruited Severa, Inigo and Owain some time after Grima's defeat and brought them to the world of Fates... But Corrin can visit Ylisse in Before Awakening, where the events in Awakening have just started, a blank slate, probably a different timeline than the one that Laslow, Selena and Odin came from... And we also have Heirs of Fate, which is who knows how many timelines at play. Multiple Anankoses, every child unit is from a different world, etc.

I'm usually not a fan of headcanon stuff, as I tend to view them as disrespectful to the creators' visions (a whole other topic), but Intelligent Systems really went out of their way to make it part of the Fire Emblem series, so I won't complain in this case.

Also, I believe you can simply not kill Laslow in Birthright, by defeating Xander before Laslow bites the dust.

Edited January 28, 2017 by Slyfox

[Selena4Lyfe]

YI'll leave y'all who know what came before in SD to discuss your hopes; I'll just say "Ditto."

 

My only main fear about this game is that the people who work on the localization will be Nintendo Treehouse.  I don't want them touching another FE game if their work will continue to resemble that of Fates.

[L9999]

My fears is that it will be the same grindfest with boring maps and that it will be panned because it doesn't have waifu trash. 

[nordopolica]

2 minutes ago, L9999 said:

My fears is that it will be the same grindfest with boring maps and that it will be panned because it doesn't have waifu trash. 

I fear poor critical reception because of absent "modern FE" aspects, too. If this game lacks supports, I can't see people new to the series sticking by it like they do Awakening and Fates, nor do I think it will be so popular. I fear that Kimishima's IS is maybe a little more complacent with FE's position and will be taking risks like this, and the series will suffer in sales and reception as a result. But if they are taking risks, I at least am 100% supportive. Gaiden was always an experiment, and FE needs its hit of fresh air.

[Ivy Wife Supremacy]

Hopes:

Brings Fire Emblem to the way it was (Before Awakening/Fates) 

Better outfit attire as it was before (Anna, Sharena, Alfonse, Veronica and Bruno are a step up though)

Actual good story more fleshed out

Great characters and personalities

Alm x Celica expanded greatly

Great DLC like Awakening

A bunch of newly added units like the Villager girl

Fears:

Bad reception from Awakening/Fates players especially if they're more casual to those games.

Forcing an Avatar and child system for other non official pairs.

Maps and Dungeons won't be expanded on 

That's a bunch for me

Edited February 9, 2017 by Blade Lord Lyn

[Tolvir]

On 1/27/2017 at 3:45 PM, ClassyWolf said:

And with it we also need the snipers pulling their bow out of their chest

  Hide contents

 

Joking aside, I pretty much agree what most have said here, that they keep fairly faithful, but know when to insert a bit of their own flavor, because the NES fire emblems really haven't aged that well and some things really need an update, like the story could be expanded, supports, maybe tweek the leveling to not take forever.

I really hope they stick with that design for archers, because that looks badass.

Edit: Is that the original design for snipers?

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by Tolvir

[ClassyWolf]

30 minutes ago, Tolvir said:

I really hope they stick with that design for archers, because that looks badass.

Edit: Is that the original design for snipers?

 

Jepp, that is the original sniper animation from Gaiden

And yes, it looked awesome

Edit: can be seen here on about 7:02

 

Edited February 9, 2017 by ClassyWolf
Added video for reference

[Pete-of-the-Forge]

On 2/4/2017 at 6:43 PM, Selena4Lyfe said:

YI'll leave y'all who know what came before in SD to discuss your hopes; I'll just say "Ditto."

 

My only main fear about this game is that the people who work on the localization will be Nintendo Treehouse.  I don't want them touching another FE game if their work will continue to resemble that of Fates.

Unfortunately Treehouse localized all the games apart from Shadow Dragon and Awakening, so I can only assume they'll be doing this one as well. That being said, their work used to be great and it was only Fates that decided to make it all joke-y.

Edited February 11, 2017 by Pete-of-the-Forge

[AlexArtsHere]

It's just been something of a trend with Treehouse of late to make localisations jokey and memey, with it affecting games like Tri Force Heroes as well as Fates.

[Jotari]

1 hour ago, InfinityAlex said:

It's just been something of a trend with Treehouse of late to make localisations jokey and memey, with it affecting games like Tri Force Heroes as well as Fates.

Tri Force Heroes wasn't humourless in the original version...? But the very basic idea is completely ridiculous. You can dress Link up in a one piece Cheetah suit.

[Yula]

Hopes:

None. They've already fulfilled what I hoped for.

 

Fears:

This game failing in sales as that will give Nintendo a lot of push in canning the franchise as a whole.

[Emeraldfox]

My only fear is if they leave the magic system from the original untouched.

Why should my Mages hurt themselves to cast magic.