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2 minutes ago, Hardin said:

Gaiden would roughly take place around the same time that Phina met Michalis in Khadein, so I don't think she would work. 

I was talking about that chapters placement with someone a while back (possibly on this thread) and they made some good points to suggest that happens a lot closer to Mystery of the Emblem then it might seem. Mainly the fact that Maria is missing and it seems like they only started kidnapping the maidens at the start of the game.

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2 hours ago, Lyon's Dirge said:

Don't you mean Intelligent Systems? Or are you fearing for the localization of this game?

 

 

Both Nintendo and IS. It's not just the localization of the game I'm worried is going to get butchered, but also I'm afraid they won't advertise at all for this game.

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53 minutes ago, Jotari said:

I was talking about that chapters placement with someone a while back (possibly on this thread) and they made some good points to suggest that happens a lot closer to Mystery of the Emblem then it might seem. Mainly the fact that Maria is missing and it seems like they only started kidnapping the maidens at the start of the game.

I just think the timeline is too brief. Having Merric, Athena, and Caeda be off in their own adventures, then be back in time to help Kris's training just seems to soon. 

 

5 minutes ago, AmericanBuizel said:

Both Nintendo and IS. It's not just the localization of the game I'm worried is going to get butchered, but also I'm afraid they won't advertise at all for this game.

Why do you care how the game is advertised as a consumer? Unless you have shares in NCL, I don't see why you should honestly even give it any thought. Fire Emblem isn't going anywhere, regardless of how this game does. 

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6 minutes ago, Hardin said:

Why do you care how the game is advertised as a consumer? Unless you have shares in NCL, I don't see why you should honestly even give it any thought. Fire Emblem isn't going anywhere, regardless of how this game does. 

True, but not advertising properly is what almost killed the series to begin with. I'm just a fan that's tired of all this waifu bullshit and just want FE to return to what it was before.

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3 hours ago, Hardin said:

I just think the timeline is too brief. Having Merric, Athena, and Caeda be off in their own adventures, then be back in time to help Kris's training just seems to soon. 

Yeah, that's the stance I was taking. I still reckon they could though Phena into Echoes if they wanted though. The timeline is already pretty murky with Camus who seemingly managed to cross the ocean while unconscious (and judging from where he's recruit, wind up on the west cost of the continent) and raise to the rank of one of the highest  generals in Rigel and still get back in time for Mystery of the Emblem. Honestly I'd rather they retconned it so Valencia was accessed via the out realms from Archanea but given its appearance in Awakening that's pretty much impossible now.

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My one fear is:

How the hell are they gonna handle that "plot twist" that occurs near the end of the game

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19 minutes ago, Pixelman said:

My one fear is:

How the hell are they gonna handle that "plot twist" that occurs near the end of the game

Play it straight? I mean, it wasn't wholly original way back when they first did it. I don't think they'll be messing with it.

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I hope they give Rudolf some more screen time. For as important a character as he is, he's kind of shoved into the end of the game. He didn't even get to cameo in Awakening! Guy needs more love.

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10 hours ago, Jotari said:

I hope they give Rudolf some more screen time. For as important a character as he is, he's kind of shoved into the end of the game. He didn't even get to cameo in Awakening! Guy needs more love.

The Gaiden cameos were decided solely on who had actual art to use. There's little doubt that he'll get more screentime, since the story is being greatly expanded.

On 3/1/2017 at 0:26 AM, AmericanBuizel said:

True, but not advertising properly is what almost killed the series to begin with. I'm just a fan that's tired of all this waifu bullshit and just want FE to return to what it was before.

Moving it back to console was just as big of a reason (the favor for handhelds was alive and well in Japan at that point), coupled with people being turned off by permadeath and launching at the end of the Gamecube's lifespan/during the Wii's casual high. And if you think there's any chance FE will ever fully "go back", I'm not sure what to say to you. It will only go forward and evolve the concepts that it has. SoV's success or failure is out of our hands (besides buying it ourselves), so worrying about it at this point is relatively meaningless.

Edited by The DanMan
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On 2017-03-01 at 6:26 AM, AmericanBuizel said:

just want FE to return to what it was before.

And when was that? I seem to remember Fire Emblem having a long history and every installment having quite a few of its own flaws. 

I often feel like the newer games are judged by their worst qualities and compared to the older titles' best. 

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At this point i think it's more important to look forward to better new and good developments with the franchise than just clinging for the glory of the past days we need both factors the old and the new in a good balance for a proper evolution of the franchise.

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1 hour ago, pinguyFrank said:

At this point i think it's more important to look forward to better new and good developments with the franchise than just clinging for the glory of the past days we need both factors the old and the new in a good balance for a proper evolution of the franchise.

Pokémon Sun & Moon and Zelda: Breath of the Wild come to mind.

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2 hours ago, Thane said:

And when was that? I seem to remember Fire Emblem having a long history and every installment having quite a few of its own flaws. 

I often feel like the newer games are judged by their worst qualities and compared to the older titles' best. 

Can you elaborate on the latter point? How is that so?

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1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

Can you elaborate on the latter point? How is that so?

What I mean is that people, for example, often complain about Awakening and Fates' worst written characters and compare them to the best ones in the older games. If you compare Kellam or Setsuna to Soren, Sanaki or Reyson, then the later games will seem silly in comparison. However, I could just as easily turn it around and compare Ilyana and Heather to Virion or Takumi, who are excellently written.

A lot of the complaints seem to come in an either overgeneralized format, like "all characters are X" or "X is bland" and offering no further explanation, or they seem to nitpick and search for flaws in a way that they don't in regards to the older titles.

In a lot of ways it's sort of like Frozen. It's a movie that got insanely popular, but that popularity spawned such a backlash that people were competing in trying to find flaws or comparing it to older Disney movies to the extent where it seemed like they didn't want Frozen to be successful because it might eclipse the popularity of their own personal favorite. I believe this plays some part in the Fire Emblem mentality; to a lot of people, Fire Emblem lost a bit of its identity when it was no longer niche, and it sort of created a united front to bash even the good things the new games did in an attempt to dismiss them - I've seen people complain about everything in terms of Awakening and Fates, from the music to Conquest's gameplay.

It's also particularly funny because I've been reading some older posts and testimony from older fans - one from before Melee was even released and they were in a forum with 60 people in the West who liked Fire Emblem - and the arguments were the same then as they are now. I know I don't get the whole picture from just a few old threads, but I saw people bashing Radiant Dawn and its "convoluted story" and how people just wanted a return to the 1-5 games. Oh, and shipping wars were a thing back in the late 90's as well, apparently. 

Anyway, I just find it funny when people want to "go back to the way things were", because as far as I can tell, the Fire Emblem community has always been very divided, and I think people tend to forget - and more importantly forgive or ignore - the flaws of the older titles. I realize this is a very general post, and I just complained about people critiquing things in a too generalized manner, but I'm afraid it's very late where I live.

Edit: am I saying the new games are better or even perfect? Hell no. They have a shit ton of flaws and I'm the most vicious critic of Fates' writing that I know. However, that doesn't mean the older games are suddenly masterpieces or that the new games didn't do a lot of things right.

Edited by Thane
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39 minutes ago, Thane said:

What I mean is that people, for example, often complain about Awakening and Fates' worst written characters and compare them to the best ones in the older games. If you compare Kellam or Setsuna to Soren, Sanaki or Reyson, then the later games will seem silly in comparison. However, I could just as easily turn it around and compare Ilyana and Heather to Virion or Takumi, who are excellently written.

A lot of the complaints seem to come in an either overgeneralized format, like "all characters are X" or "X is bland" and offering no further explanation, or they seem to nitpick and search for flaws in a way that they don't in regards to the older titles.

In a lot of ways it's sort of like Frozen. It's a movie that got insanely popular, but that popularity spawned such a backlash that people were competing in trying to find flaws or comparing it to older Disney movies to the extent where it seemed like they didn't want Frozen to be successful because it might eclipse the popularity of their own personal favorite. I believe this plays some part in the Fire Emblem mentality; to a lot of people, Fire Emblem lost a bit of its identity when it was no longer niche, and it sort of created a united front to bash even the good things the new games did in an attempt to dismiss them - I've seen people complain about everything in terms of Awakening and Fates, from the music to Conquest's gameplay.

It's also particularly funny because I've been reading some older posts and testimony from older fans - some from before Melee was even released and they were in a forum with 60 people in the West who liked Fire Emblem - and the arguments were the same then as they are now. I know I don't get the whole picture from just a few old threads, but I saw people bashing Radiant Dawn and its "convoluted story" and how people just wanted a return to the 1-5 games. Oh, and shipping wars were a thing back in the late 90's as well, apparently. 

Anyway, I just find it funny when people want to "go back to the way things were", because as far as I can tell, the Fire Emblem community has always been very divided, and I think people tend to forget the flaws of the older titles. I realize this is a very general post, and I just complained about people critiquing things in a too generalized manner, but I'm afraid it's very late where I live.

Oh, I see what you mean.

I agree with your points for the most part, that other FE titles definitely do have flatly-written gimmick characters like Ilyana, but I think it's the fact that the tone of FE in the earlier games was a whole lot more serious/less referential than in Awakening or Fates, so that's where a lot of the disconnect comes in. Characters in the older games are as a whole more understated; the exceptions you got stood out simply because they were the exception to the rule, like Kieran talking about fighting giant scorpions and getting an axe blade stuck in his head. He was funny because the rest of the world was so down-to-earth and serious.

But characters in the newer games are more exaggerated, or built around their quirk, more than characters from the other games, and the world itself is a lot less serious. Does this make them funnier? In a lot of cases, yes. But it also can break immersion in what is meant to be a relatively serious fantasy story, or be a little too silly for someone else's tastes, to the point that the characters begin reading like a parody character instead of a serious one. (Awakening was more guilty of this than Fates, in my honest opinion.)

While the majority of what makes Fire Emblem Fire Emblem still remains, imo (strategy RPG, fantasy world, diverse cast of characters, rock-paper-scissors gameplay, support conversations with character development and bonuses, etc.), I do think, in some respects, people have a point when it comes to Fire Emblem losing something of its character. While I personally am not against the mechanics, casual mode (and especially Phoenix mode) did remove the signature permadeath mechanic, as well as the infinite durability weapons (I know this originated in Gaiden, but as it was dropped from most of the rest of the series, I believe it became ingrained in FE's character), which got rid of a lot of the realism and challenge within the series. Now, I'm definitely not on the "FIRE EMBLEM IS RUINED FOREVER!" bandwagon, but there are some directions the series is taking that I'm not too keen on. (The increased fanservice being one of them.)

But yeah, shipping wars were always a thing. The Ninian/Eliwood shippers versus pretty much every other pairing for Eliwood is that one I remember the clearest from way back when.

Also, yeah, division within the FE fandom is definitely nothing new. And the older titles definitely had their flaws, which people do tend to overlook when criticizing the newer games. Partially out of nostalgia, I believe.

Edited by Extrasolar
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7 hours ago, Thane said:

I often feel like the newer games are judged by their worst qualities and compared to the older titles' best. 

But that's how it goes with the older titles, too. People judging FE4 by having tedious, overlarge maps, FE6 for same-turn reinforcements and no Roy promotion, FE8 for being easy, FE10 for the Daein chapters, FE11 for not having supports and locking gaidens behind death tolls, etc. FE13 and 14 actually do manage to stand up well as a game in comparison, since nobody can point to any part of the gameplay and say "This is why it's inferior to FE7/FE9!" without sounding ridiculously petty. But thanks to its handling of story and characters, it still ended up feeling like worse experiences in the eyes of some people, me being one of those insane people who care about story and characters more than gameplay.

Edited by Gruntagen
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1 hour ago, Gruntagen said:

no Roy promotion

Roy promotes after chapter 21 or if you got the gaiden chapter, chapter 21x.

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9 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I agree with your points for the most part, that other FE titles definitely do have flatly-written gimmick characters like Ilyana, but I think it's the fact that the tone of FE in the earlier games was a whole lot more serious/less referential than in Awakening or Fates, so that's where a lot of the disconnect comes in. Characters in the older games are as a whole more understated; the exceptions you got stood out simply because they were the exception to the rule, like Kieran talking about fighting giant scorpions and getting an axe blade stuck in his head. He was funny because the rest of the world was so down-to-earth and serious.

While I agree that a lot of the supports in the 3DS games could be too quirky or that they didn't have enough serious ones thrown into the mix, I also think the supposed seriousness of the Fire Emblem cast in the older games didn't do them many favors. In a lot of cases, the dialogue is rather stiff, making it sound like two people have two separate conversations rather than a dialogue (which is actually the case in the Dorcas/Vaida support), and the quirks are still definitely there. What does Fir want to do? Become a master of the sword. What's up with Gwendolyn? She's an armor knight. There's not a lot more to them; even Fir's support about her backstory is underwhelming. 

In many cases I think how something is written is just as important as what's being said in a support, and the dialogue in many older games tends not to flow smoothly. That's a very subjective point to make, however, and I must mention that I'm aware of that.
 

9 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

But characters in the newer games are more exaggerated, or built around their quirk, more than characters from the other games, and the world itself is a lot less serious. Does this make them funnier? In a lot of cases, yes. But it also can break immersion in what is meant to be a relatively serious fantasy story, or be a little too silly for someone else's tastes, to the point that the characters begin reading like a parody character instead of a serious one. (Awakening was more guilty of this than Fates, in my honest opinion.)

Indeed, the throwaway supports are more numerous and that's a glaring issue with the current support system that reflects poorly upon many characters. However, a lot of the depth and seriousness is still there, and that's something I feel like many people often ignore as well. Does Gaius talk too much about candy? Yes. Is that the only thing he talks about? Hell no. It doesn't actually get brought up in most of his supports, and in the one with Olivia it's relevant to reveal that he likes baking because it puts a smile on people's faces. 

Also, keep in mind that the supports of Awakening and Fates take place outside of battle for the most part which can explain why they're more relaxed, while the older supports took place in the middle of combat, which can be just as jarring. Does Forde knowing how to paint give him depth? Sure. Is it something anything a retainer would do in the middle of combat, or something a serious person such as Ephraim would accept? Probably not. 

Then we could argue about how seriously we should take the stories; I never once felt a sense of danger or urgency in Blazing Blade, and it remains my second least favorite story of series behind only Fates in large part due to how bad the villains are.

9 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

While the majority of what makes Fire Emblem Fire Emblem still remains, imo (strategy RPG, fantasy world, diverse cast of characters, rock-paper-scissors gameplay, support conversations with character development and bonuses, etc.), I do think, in some respects, people have a point when it comes to Fire Emblem losing something of its character. While I personally am not against the mechanics, casual mode (and especially Phoenix mode) did remove the signature permadeath mechanic, as well as the infinite durability weapons (I know this originated in Gaiden, but as it was dropped from most of the rest of the series, I believe it became ingrained in FE's character), which got rid of a lot of the realism and challenge within the series. 

First of all, I simply must point out that Fire Emblem was never realistic in the slightest. This is a game where a band of hot, teenage anime studs jump around in impractical clothing and armor and defeat much better equipped, experienced and numerous foes. Everyone's clean, lords fraternize with their soldiers, all the important people fight on the front lines, etc. If you bring up permadeath as a removal of something realistic, then I would be inclined to call it cherry picking. 

As for it being iconic, then you could bring up how you can bring people back to life in the first and second game. Naturally, that's not the same, but it's still there. 

However, at the end of the day, it's just an option and a sign of changing times. I mean, is it really better for players to restart when they lose a character than to get them back at the end of the map? I know some fans soldier on no matter what happens, but let's not kid ourselves; restarting is very common when playing the games. Hell, some people use save states on emulators because maps are too large and they don't want to redo everything. So long as it's optional and doesn't affect us who want to play with permadeath on, I don't see the issue.

9 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Now, I'm definitely not on the "FIRE EMBLEM IS RUINED FOREVER!" bandwagon, but there are some directions the series is taking that I'm not too keen on. (The increased fanservice being one of them.)

I agree wholeheartedly.

9 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Also, yeah, division within the FE fandom is definitely nothing new. And the older titles definitely had their flaws, which people do tend to overlook when criticizing the newer games. Partially out of nostalgia, I believe.

Indeed. And I think there are newer players who won't try out the older games for silly reason as well. However, I rarely see the latter group straight up bash the older games unadulteratedly. Like I said, the newer games have a lot of flaws and the increased fan service is worrying (though if it's relegated to DLC I think it's fine) that are definitely worth discussing, but I do think some nostalgia plays part in trying to tear the games asunder to make the older games look better by comparison. I mean, I remember reading posts which said that Lyn winning was a "literal middle finger to the new fanbase, games and waifu culture", like, what does that even mean? That's putting a character on a pedestal and being really ignorant as to why some people like Lyn and how shipping wars have always been a thing.

I hope I didn't come across as rude or anything while writing this, I can get a bit prickly over this topic.

5 hours ago, Gruntagen said:

But that's how it goes with the older titles, too. People judging FE4 by having tedious, overlarge maps, FE6 for same-turn reinforcements and no Roy promotion, FE8 for being easy, FE10 for the Daein chapters, FE11 for not having supports and locking gaidens behind death tolls, etc. FE13 and 14 actually do manage to stand up well as a game in comparison, since nobody can point to any part of the gameplay and say "This is why it's inferior to FE7/FE9!" without sounding ridiculously petty. But thanks to its handling of story and characters, it still ended up feeling like worse experiences in the eyes of some people, me being one of those insane people who care about story and characters more than gameplay.

Criticizing the flaws of older games happen, sure, but people pick the newer games apart and get hung up on every little detail to the point where, again, it seems like they don't even want to like the game. This is just based on my overall impression over my two years in the fandom, mind you, and I'm not saying everyone who complains about the new games do so blindly, of course, that would be silly.

I'm also of the opinion that the older games weren't much better written at all. I like Radiant Dawn's story the most in the series and I think Lyon's the best villain but as we all know FE10 has some really questionable writing decisions and a lack of support conversations while Sacred Stones is, to put it bluntly, rather basic in terms of structure. Couple this with my previous issues with the flow of the dialogue and distaste for Blazing Blade and I must admit I don't quite see what others do in the older games' writing.

Another question worth asking is what are the "older" games? 1 and 2 didn't have much story or character to speak of, FE11 is widely considered the worst installment in the franchise in part due to how they handled the characters and FE12 is looked down at because of Kris, so are we only talking about 3-10 here? But if people consider Blazing Blade to be a well-written story, then I definitely don't want to go back to the olden days.

Naturally, I must again mention that I do wish the newer games had more serious supports in addition to the more comedic ones. I have also not played the Jugdral games, so I can't comment on those I'm afraid. 

Edited by Thane
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19 minutes ago, Thane said:

Another question worth asking is what are the "older" games? 1 and 2 didn't have much story or character to speak of, FE11 is widely considered the worst installment in the franchise in part due to how they handled the characters and FE12 is looked down at because of Kris, so are we only talking about 3-10 here? But if people consider Blazing Blade to be a well-written story, then I definitely don't want to go back to the olden days.

Naturally, I must again mention that I do wish the newer games had more serious supports in addition to the more comedic ones. I have also not played the Jugdral games, so I can't comment on those I'm afraid. 

You'd be surprised both in how quite a number of people praise 11's writing quality (there just wasn't enough of it), and how many divides there are for what the "worst FE is" there is generally no widely agreed worst FE. Back when I joined Serenes in 2012, most people on this forum absolutely hated FE6, nowadays I see the hate paraded around on every game depending on the player. I commonly see 10, 2, and 13 cited opposed to 11 right now for instance.

And the other thing is, back in the older days of the FE fandom, character interactions were praised more than the stories themselves along with the gameplay, its only more recently that people have been taking a more critical eye to the plots of the games, because it doesn't matter to quite a number of the players in the fanbase, but as the numbers grew due to Awakenings surprise popularity, we've gotten a bit more of a varied group, good and bad. 

Edited by Jedi
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4 hours ago, Thane said:

FE11 is widely considered the worst installment in the franchise

SD's come around a la Zelda cycle-- you have more people who, while recognizing its flaws, still greatly enjoy it. And almost nobody bothers criticizing it anymore with FE12-14 existing. Heck, I've seen several threads pop up on the subreddit basically going "Just replayed SD for the first time in years-- why did we hate it so much again?".

There's no clear-cut worst or best game in the series-- I think I've seen it said that "Your first game is your favorite and everything else is your least favorite".

Anyways, to actually stay on-topic: that they don't both tweaking the more troublesome maps in the game. That's Gaiden's biggest problem right there.

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I don't know how anyone can't see the gap in realism between Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and Fire Emblem: Awakening. Awakening feels like a sitcom. The older games definitely took themselves more seriously and were more believable. 

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1 hour ago, The DanMan said:

And almost nobody bothers criticizing it anymore with FE12-14 existing.

Almost no one bothers touching FE12. As far as I have seen, every single problem it introduced is ignored in favor of using that problem to attack Awakening or Fates. But this is my experience.

 

29 minutes ago, Lyon's Dirge said:

I don't know how anyone can't see the gap in realism between Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance and Fire Emblem: Awakening. Awakening feels like a sitcom. The older games definitely took themselves more seriously and were more believable. 

Took themselves more seriously, yes. You cannot argue with a straight face that anyone that knows anything about logistics and how medieval combat actually worked would actually believe that a bunch of random nobody teenagers are going to defeat entire armies who in any realistic sense would be better equipped, better trained and outnumber your little task force at least 10:1. Or that some random unproven kid who happened to be the son of the leader of a mercenary group would be handed control over that mercenary group over their second in command or the tactician, yet as far as I remember... Soren wasn't even remotely considered for leadership.

Also, I'd like to mention that if you're trying to seriously pull the, "Well they were good people until they were corrupted." twist for the 12th time, you threw believability out of the window in favor of predictability.

 

Anyhoo on topic, that link I posted that no one has probably seen. Casual mode is back and there's no weapon triangle. Aside from Casual mode and autoending turns, this seems like a 1:1 remake.

Edited by SSJ4 Xelon
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I am a little worried about how close they are sticking to the original with Shadows. I dont mind the maps, as I dont think they were that bad. Then again I have never been one to worry so much about the maps, the only time I hated it was the amount of times Awakening had wide open maps with nothing but trees. At least Gaiden had small structures.

I am more worried about some of the other things that are apparently being kept it. First being classes. While I didnt want them to go overboard and add in as many classes as Fates, I am hoping they have at least fixed promotions and maybe added some branches in there. Mages lacked a third promote, and I would like to see some classes be added in as branches. Halberdier, an on foot third promote for archers, and something new for the sword user/mercenary line other than demon fighter/dread fighter/whateverthefuckitsebeingcallednow.

I am also not personally big on the hp use for spells. I find it kind of a lazy excuse for not implementing a magic point system. Im not against some spells costing life, but dont like all of them doing that. Maybe implementing a magic point system instead, and then causing spells to cost life if you run out of mp would be better.

I dont mind the lack of a weapon triangle, it makes sense if Axes still are lacking from the player, and even if axes were usable now I dont think the weapon triangle being absent for a game is that big of a deal.

I really hope they make the game longer. Gaiden was pretty short, I dont want to pay $40 for less than what I got with Fates/Awakening. I am hoping by the fact that this is getting a physical release at full price that this isnt going to be as short.

I really hope it gets Amiibo support outside of just the Alm/Celica amiibo. Fates did it pretty well, and with Shadows having extra dungeons coming from Alm/Celica, I would love to see some themed dungeons from the other amiibos. Give me a reason for owning my Ike Amiibo please.

Make the dungeons something interesting. Dungeons in Gaiden were an intriguing idea but due to technical limitations they were very short. I would love to see some nice, long dungeons. They dont have to be as large as Final Fantasy or Diablo dungeons, but I wont complain either if I get a nice 99 level dungeon with a shit ton of mini bosses.

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