Hopes/Fears for Shadows of Valentia

[Extrasolar]

5 hours ago, SSJ4 Xelon said:

Almost no one bothers touching FE12. As far as I have seen, every single problem it introduced is ignored in favor of using that problem to attack Awakening or Fates. But this is my experience.

I disagree. From the people I know that have played it (admittedly not many), they often criticize the prevalence of the avatar Kris, who tends to overshadow the actual plot of New Mystery. They do hail it as better than Shadow Dragon in a lot of cases, a lot of reasoning being the inclusion of the character conversations and more development.

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Took themselves more seriously, yes. You cannot argue with a straight face that anyone that knows anything about logistics and how medieval combat actually worked would actually believe that a bunch of random nobody teenagers are going to defeat entire armies who in any realistic sense would be better equipped, better trained and outnumber your little task force at least 10:1. Or that some random unproven kid who happened to be the son of the leader of a mercenary group would be handed control over that mercenary group over their second in command or the tactician, yet as far as I remember... Soren wasn't even remotely considered for leadership.

Also, I'd like to mention that if you're trying to seriously pull the, "Well they were good people until they were corrupted." twist for the 12th time, you threw believability out of the window in favor of predictability.

I'm not saying that Fire Emblem was always 100% realistic. FE as a whole depends on the suspension of disbelief as far as army size and characters go; we depend on teenagers to save the world and take down people with decades more combat experience than them, or monstrous dragons that should far, far outstrip them in power. Nor is it 100% accurate to the medieval world - I mean, we've got mages and dragons. But that didn't stop it from feeling far more realistic than, say, Fates and Awakening. As a whole, the older FE titles read like a serious fantasy story and world with a few comedic characters and moments, whereas Awakening and Fates (especially Awakening) took a more comedic route. A lot of the time in Awakening, if I didn't know any better, I could have sworn I was playing a parody of a fantasy rather than a straight fantasy.

I believe the anime influence on the games increased a lot, as well, which could alienate people. Of course, anime has always been an influence on FE, but now more than ever, the character tropes, jokes, and references are heavily, heavily anime, which can get tiresome. Nothing against anime, but it can be a bit distracting in what was once a more straight-played fantasy story.

11 hours ago, Thane said:

While I agree that a lot of the supports in the 3DS games could be too quirky or that they didn't have enough serious ones thrown into the mix, I also think the supposed seriousness of the Fire Emblem cast in the older games didn't do them many favors. In a lot of cases, the dialogue is rather stiff, making it sound like two people have two separate conversations rather than a dialogue (which is actually the case in the Dorcas/Vaida support), and the quirks are still definitely there. What does Fir want to do? Become a master of the sword. What's up with Gwendolyn? She's an armor knight. There's not a lot more to them; even Fir's support about her backstory is underwhelming. 

In many cases I think how something is written is just as important as what's being said in a support, and the dialogue in many older games tends not to flow smoothly. That's a very subjective point to make, however, and I must mention that I'm aware of that.
 

Indeed, the throwaway supports are more numerous and that's a glaring issue with the current support system that reflects poorly upon many characters. However, a lot of the depth and seriousness is still there, and that's something I feel like many people often ignore as well. Does Gaius talk too much about candy? Yes. Is that the only thing he talks about? Hell no. It doesn't actually get brought up in most of his supports, and in the one with Olivia it's relevant to reveal that he likes baking because it puts a smile on people's faces. 

Also, keep in mind that the supports of Awakening and Fates take place outside of battle for the most part which can explain why they're more relaxed, while the older supports took place in the middle of combat, which can be just as jarring. Does Forde knowing how to paint give him depth? Sure. Is it something anything a retainer would do in the middle of combat, or something a serious person such as Ephraim would accept? Probably not.

I always saw the dialogue in FE as being "dry" (for lack of a better term, I guess I should say "serious") because of a deliberate stylization choice; it's almost the same effect of Tolkien's language in his books. Like Tolkien, it can be awkward or strange to read, but I think it's meant to be a callback to an older time, to immerse you in the time period, where people spoke differently. If anything, the juxtaposition of the more serious language with some of the more comedic characters (Kieran, for example, and Boyd to a lesser extent) was even funnier. Awakening and Fates relaxed the dialogue which made it flow better for a modern person, but at the same time, often broke the suspension of disbelief.

I love Izana to death and find him one of Fates' funniest characters, but I can't deny reading his lines was jarring and immediately took me out of the world in what was supposed to be a past-era fantasy story. I know Izana is an extreme example, and his dialogue was exaggerated in the localization on purpose, but others characters in Fates and Awakening do the same, albeit to a lesser extent.

I'm not denying that other FE characters sometimes have their quirk, or one trait that their character disproportionately focuses on (Binding Blade falls victim to this a lot; I think the flatter characterization as a whole is a rollover from losing a lot of space from the transition from Super Famicom to Gameboy Advance), but those quirks, for the most part, made sense. A candy-obsessed thief is...out there, to the point that it sounds like a parody/comedic character (not saying that Gaius has no depth or other traits, he definitely does, whereas Asugi is little more than an obsessive exaggeration on that candy trait, but I digress). How about an armor knight that pretty much "disappears" because he's so nondescript and overlooked? When Genealogy did the same joke, Arden wasn't literally vanishing from people's view like Kellam does. A swordsman/woman obsessed with training and fighting opponents? They've done it with Fir, and later with Mia. Flat, but it at least makes sense and doesn't break immersion.

Frederick is a strict, uptight knight with a strong loyalty to the family he serves...and then he starts talking about putting up naked posters of Chrom. Um. What? (Not bashing Frederick, I like the character, but stuff like that is weird and immersion-breaking.)

Heat of battle supports are a bit strange, indeed. There's absolutely nothing wrong with relaxed supports, as I'm not of the opinion that supports have to delve into tragic pasts or whatnot all the time...but some relevance would be nice. I always point to Shinon and Janaff's supports; they're rather lighthearted, but at the same time, explores and give depths to both the seemingly childish Janaff (he's older and wiser than people give him credit for), and the racist Shinon (he's in awe over Janaff's age, and even stops himself from saying the racial slur when talking to him).

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Indeed. And I think there are newer players who won't try out the older games for silly reason as well. However, I rarely see the latter group straight up bash the older games unadulteratedly. Like I said, the newer games have a lot of flaws and the increased fan service is worrying (though if it's relegated to DLC I think it's fine) that are definitely worth discussing, but I do think some nostalgia plays part in trying to tear the games asunder to make the older games look better by comparison. I mean, I remember reading posts which said that Lyn winning was a "literal middle finger to the new fanbase, games and waifu culture", like, what does that even mean? That's putting a character on a pedestal and being really ignorant as to why some people like Lyn and how shipping wars have always been a thing.


I hope I didn't come across as rude or anything while writing this, I can get a bit prickly over this topic.

Criticizing the flaws of older games happen, sure, but people pick the newer games apart and get hung up on every little detail to the point where, again, it seems like they don't even want to like the game. This is just based on my overall impression over my two years in the fandom, mind you, and I'm not saying everyone who complains about the new games do so blindly, of course, that would be silly.

I'm also of the opinion that the older games weren't much better written at all. I like Radiant Dawn's story the most in the series and I think Lyon's the best villain but as we all know FE10 has some really questionable writing decisions and a lack of support conversations while Sacred Stones is, to put it bluntly, rather basic in terms of structure. Couple this with my previous issues with the flow of the dialogue and distaste for Blazing Blade and I must admit I don't quite see what others do in the older games' writing.

Another question worth asking is what are the "older" games? 1 and 2 didn't have much story or character to speak of, FE11 is widely considered the worst installment in the franchise in part due to how they handled the characters and FE12 is looked down at because of Kris, so are we only talking about 3-10 here? But if people consider Blazing Blade to be a well-written story, then I definitely don't want to go back to the olden days.

Naturally, I must again mention that I do wish the newer games had more serious supports in addition to the more comedic ones. I have also not played the Jugdral games, so I can't comment on those I'm afraid. 

That comment about Lyn...yeah, a lot of problems with that one. Lyn winning had little to do with the newer games, if anything at all. That's just...ignorant.

I definitely agree that the newer games definitely get the most flack in comparison (Shadow Dragon being a close second, and Binding Blade third, and yeah, I remember when bashing everything about the latter two was vogue), with people downplaying their good decisions or mechanics (Pair Up is a great one, and I'm glad Fates rebalanced it), and  but I think that's a given in any fandom. You'll always have that installment or installments that were less well received that people focus on disliking more. Fates and Awakening get it more because of their being steeped in current culture and tropes, as opposed to BB and SD, which got flack for being outdated and bare-bones in comparison.

Not speaking of FE1/3 and their remakes, as speaking from a purely western perspective, very few people have played Shadow Dragon and New Mystery; in this context, I mean from FE4 to FE10.

I agree with you in that FE has never had amazingly well-written or put-together stories, though again, I think it's a matter of tone. People feel alienated by Awakening and to a lesser extent Fates' sillier tones; now, the older FE games definitely had their comedic characters and moments, but they were relegated to isolated moments of comedic relief, whereas Awakening was more comedic than serious. Likewise, Awakening and Fates most definitely have their serious moments, but as a whole are sillier. I believe that's why the plots feel flatter or less believable; Fates and Awakening do have a problem with sudden mood whiplash, which made the games' stories less impactful or less believable.

I'd say that as far as pure plot development and writing goes, Path of Radiance and the Jugdral games shine the most (though a lot of Jugdral is in supplementary material). FE10 definitely had questionable choices...and yes, those supports were awful.

You're not coming off as rude or prickly; I'm really enjoying this debate, actually.

Edited March 3, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Spoiler Alert]

2 hours ago, Tolvir said:

I am a little worried about how close they are sticking to the original with Shadows.

I am also not personally big on the hp use for spells. I find it kind of a lazy excuse for not implementing a magic point system. Im not against some spells costing life, but dont like all of them doing that. Maybe implementing a magic point system instead, and then causing spells to cost life if you run out of mp would be better.

These are most of my concerns for the game in a nutshell.  I'm really excited with the idea of getting an official release of Gaiden, but if it's only the original game with a new coat of paint, then I don't know.  I was hoping that the remake would re-balance the mechanics, remove what didn't work while building on what did, and turn it into a modern, better working version of a very old game with some nostalgic flair. 

I hope that there's still information being held back and that the game is like that to some extent.  The HP cost for spells is a major put-off for me, but I'm still going to play the waiting game.

[Jedi]

3 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I disagree. From the people I know that have played it (admittedly not many), they often criticize the prevalence of the avatar Kris, who tends to overshadow the actual plot of New Mystery. They do hail it as better than Shadow Dragon in a lot of cases, a lot of reasoning being the inclusion of the character conversations and more development.

Most of the reason New Mystery gets praised is its gameplay and having one of the best hardest modes in the franchise, Kris isn't well liked sure, But the liking or hating of FE12 is usually based off the experiences of people who liked FE3 Book 2 more or less than it in its simpler terms, and thats most of its divide. 

You have the camp that finds FE3 Book 2 vastly superior, or the ones who say FE12 added a lot and having better map design etc etc etc. 

Also going back to the Shadow Dragon thing for a tiny bit, quite a number of people disregard how much good it did for the UI. 

[Rapier]

My fear is that they might make this game with the similar philosophy they had for Shadow Dragon, essentially remaking an old game by flavoring it with better graphics, OST and a few tweaks, then pretending it is enough to rescue a very old game (that didn't age well) from the scrap heap. It isn't.

I want to keep supports, reclassing and the elements that made modern FE good while retaining the good elements from the old Gaiden and keeping as much of its essence as possible. I don't want a Gaiden 2.0 flavored with reclassing, better graphics/ost and a base/deployment screen.

Knowing how FE12 was an improvement over FE11, I don't think this will happen, but still...

[Jotari]

8 hours ago, Spoiler Alert said:

These are most of my concerns for the game in a nutshell.  I'm really excited with the idea of getting an official release of Gaiden, but if it's only the original game with a new coat of paint, then I don't know.  I was hoping that the remake would re-balance the mechanics, remove what didn't work while building on what did, and turn it into a modern, better working version of a very old game with some nostalgic flair. 

I hope that there's still information being held back and that the game is like that to some extent.  The HP cost for spells is a major put-off for me, but I'm still going to play the waiting game.

Have you played Gaiden?

7 hours ago, Jedi said:

Most of the reason New Mystery gets praised is its gameplay and having one of the best hardest modes in the franchise, Kris isn't well liked sure, But the liking or hating of FE12 is usually based off the experiences of people who liked FE3 Book 2 more or less than it in its simpler terms, and thats most of its divide. 

You have the camp that finds FE3 Book 2 vastly superior, or the ones who say FE12 added a lot and having better map design etc etc etc. 

Also going back to the Shadow Dragon thing for a tiny bit, quite a number of people disregard how much good it did for the UI. 

I praise Shadow Dragons UI from here to the ends of the Earth. They did an absolutely fantastic job of utilising every pixel of space in an effective manner. A lot of people give crap for Shadow Dragon overall calling it basically a graphical update but it was more than that. It was a very tightly designed game that was scaled and  balanced well (for the most part). I'm the kind of person who wants to see stuff like Weapon Weight and the Biorhythm back as I think the rise of complexity is a good thing. Puts more meat into the battle system overall. But the lack of supports and skills in Shadow Dragon doesn't bother me at all because the gameplay is genuinely good. It's simple but it's a damn fine game. Which only makes it more mind boggling how they managed to fuck up the Gaiden chapters so much.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Jotari

[Thane]

15 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I'm not saying that Fire Emblem was always 100% realistic. FE as a whole depends on the suspension of disbelief as far as army size and characters go; we depend on teenagers to save the world and take down people with decades more combat experience than them, or monstrous dragons that should far, far outstrip them in power. Nor is it 100% accurate to the medieval world - I mean, we've got mages and dragons. But that didn't stop it from feeling far more realistic than, say, Fates and Awakening. As a whole, the older FE titles read like a serious fantasy story and world with a few comedic characters and moments, whereas Awakening and Fates (especially Awakening) took a more comedic route. A lot of the time in Awakening, if I didn't know any better, I could have sworn I was playing a parody of a fantasy rather than a straight fantasy.
 

See, this is funny; I felt like the dialogue in Awakening did have a certain medieval flair in addition to being very modern, which I found to be an interesting mix and incredibly charming. My little brother who finished the game two days ago and has now restarted said the same thing. Since the dialoge flows smoother in Awakening, it feels more natural and therefore more believable to me than in, say, Sacred Stones, where it comes across as more tryhard, for the lack of a better word. 

One could also ask if it's such a bad thing to have more lighthearted dialogue. I mean, the main quest is still plenty serious, which I think a lot of people forget. They're still fighting to avert the end of the world, and even in the supports you can read about all the horrible stuff that happened to the second generation in the future. 

15 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I believe the anime influence on the games increased a lot, as well, which could alienate people. Of course, anime has always been an influence on FE, but now more than ever, the character tropes, jokes, and references are heavily, heavily anime, which can get tiresome. Nothing against anime, but it can be a bit distracting in what was once a more straight-played fantasy story.

Tropes are everywhere, it's what you do with them that matters. I say that as someone who has plenty against anime and only enjoy three of them out of the ones I've seen. Naturally I want less reliance on tired clichés and in particular anime logic, but I find Fates is a much bigger offender of this than Awakening, and I bash Fates constantly.

Also, like you say, anime's always had an influence on the series; I mean Path of Radiance of all games introduced cat girls in mini skirts.

15 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I always saw the dialogue in FE as being "dry" (for lack of a better term, I guess I should say "serious") because of a deliberate stylization choice; it's almost the same effect of Tolkien's language in his books. Like Tolkien, it can be awkward or strange to read, but I think it's meant to be a callback to an older time, to immerse you in the time period, where people spoke differently. If anything, the juxtaposition of the more serious language with some of the more comedic characters (Kieran, for example, and Boyd to a lesser extent) was even funnier. Awakening and Fates relaxed the dialogue which made it flow better for a modern person, but at the same time, often broke the suspension of disbelief.

I don't know, I think the game just got better localizers and that the older games were more directly translated from Japanese, if anything, actually. I don't know enough about the subject so I can't say for certain, but I've noticed that when certain amateurs translate or scanlate something, they tend to be very literal, which makes the dialogue lifeless much in the same way as a lot of older Fire Emblem games had problem with. 

As for the suspension of disbelief, I'm afraid I don't quite see it; again, you can technically have Forde make a painting while fighting against Formotiis, I believe. 

More importantly, however, I fail to see the need for an overly stylized form of speech in a setting that may take place in the medieval age technologically, but not morally 

15 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Frederick is a strict, uptight knight with a strong loyalty to the family he serves...and then he starts talking about putting up naked posters of Chrom. Um. What? (Not bashing Frederick, I like the character, but stuff like that is weird and immersion-breaking.)

Oh I get what you mean, but if we're cherry picking examples for immersion breaking, I've already mentioned Forde. If I am to give an example of stale writing, look at Gwendolyn and Ogier's C support, for example.

Spoiler

Ogier: What are you doing, Gwendolyn?

Gwendolyn: I'm practicing my walking.

Ogier: Walking? Why?

Gwendolyn: For an Armor Knight, it's tough to get back up if you fall to the ground. You have to build strong legs to make sure that you will never fall.

Ogier: I see.

Gwendolyn: The basics are everything, Ogier.

Riveting stuff.

15 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Heat of battle supports are a bit strange, indeed. There's absolutely nothing wrong with relaxed supports, as I'm not of the opinion that supports have to delve into tragic pasts or whatnot all the time...but some relevance would be nice. I always point to Shinon and Janaff's supports; they're rather lighthearted, but at the same time, explores and give depths to both the seemingly childish Janaff (he's older and wiser than people give him credit for), and the racist Shinon (he's in awe over Janaff's age, and even stops himself from saying the racial slur when talking to him).

Oh definitely, not all supports need to deal with gray morality or reveal that one of the soldiers is a single father who recites poetry at cafés for a quick extra buck to send home to his kids; some can just be about two people bonding, which is why Shiro/Caeldori is one of Fates' best supports. 

I definitely understand your point though, and this is the biggest issue I have with Awakening and Fates' supports; a lot of them could exist in a vacuum. However, as flawed as that system is, I often find myself defending the good supports that are there, since I feel like they're often being overlooked. Cherche and Lon'qu delve deep into the latter's past, Gaius and Maribelle have an unexpected past connection and Noire and Brady discuss how physically weak they are while bonding in the infirmary, to name a few.

16 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

That comment about Lyn...yeah, a lot of problems with that one. Lyn winning had little to do with the newer games, if anything at all. That's just...ignorant.

I also believe it shows how certain fans hold the older games to a different standard than the new ones. It's like they're saying "well I like this character, so she can't be a 'waifu', which all of the newer games' female characters are!"

16 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I definitely agree that the newer games definitely get the most flack in comparison (Shadow Dragon being a close second, and Binding Blade third, and yeah, I remember when bashing everything about the latter two was vogue), with people downplaying their good decisions or mechanics (Pair Up is a great one, and I'm glad Fates rebalanced it), and  but I think that's a given in any fandom. You'll always have that installment or installments that were less well received that people focus on disliking more. Fates and Awakening get it more because of their being steeped in current culture and tropes, as opposed to BB and SD, which got flack for being outdated and bare-bones in comparison.

I agree that it's a large part of the complaints and I understand where they're coming from, I really do, especially with characters like Camilla. However, it still feels like the Frozen syndrome which I mentioned earlier. Naturally any fandom will have issues with some games more than others, I'm not arguing against that at all, merely that it seems like the new games are subject to a scrutiny which doesn't apply to the older titles. This is just my general feeling on the subject, however, and not facts.

16 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I'd say that as far as pure plot development and writing goes, Path of Radiance and the Jugdral games shine the most (though a lot of Jugdral is in supplementary material). FE10 definitely had questionable choices...and yes, those supports were awful.

I love the worldbuilding and cast of Tellius, but I'm not a big fan of Path of Radiance's plot. Aside from Ike being lowborn and its great subplots, it's a very standard story. Like in Blazing Blade, the villains make me roll my eyes more than anything, and Ike and Ashnard have a grand total of zero interactions before the final battle, which is such a downgrade from Lyon. I feel like Radiant Dawn benefited from having Path of Radiance's worldbuilding and previously established character connections to fall back on, even if it was fragmented and had a few poor writing decisions.

16 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

You're not coming off as rude or prickly; I'm really enjoying this debate, actually.

I'm glad. I enjoy it too! It took a while to reply though because of Breath of the Wild.

[Extrasolar]

1 hour ago, Thane said:

See, this is funny; I felt like the dialogue in Awakening did have a certain medieval flair in addition to being very modern, which I found to be an interesting mix and incredibly charming. My little brother who finished the game two days ago and has now restarted said the same thing. Since the dialoge flows smoother in Awakening, it feels more natural and therefore more believable to me than in, say, Sacred Stones, where it comes across as more tryhard, for the lack of a better word.

I'm not going to deny that Awakening's and Fates' writing was fun, and it definitely had a lot more funny moments than the previous games had overall. But I think the main conversation is serious/believable versus comedic/lighthearted.

For people who like the former, Awakening's and Fates' tones are jarring and immersion-breaking, while for people who like the latter, the earlier games are dry and even boring at points.

Speaking of boring, I feel like this disconnect between serious and comedic also applies to the characters, which is why a lot of Awakening and Fates' characters are criticized as being flat and gimmicky, even when there were plenty of flatly-written characters in the earlier series. I think fewer people realize this because characters in the past games were, as a whole, much more understated and realistic, while characters in the newer titles are exaggerated and much more colorful. For fans of the former idea, the colorful personalities come off as ridiculous, gimmicky, or dumb; for fans of the latter idea, the understated personalities come off as boring, flat, or forgettable.

I always bring up Oscar in this case. He's a mild-mannered, reliable and responsible knight who looks after his brothers. He's basically a regular old boring guy in every sense of the word (using "boring" here as a figurative). To a fan of more realistic, down-to-earth FE, he's a well-written, believable character. To fans of more exaggerated and colorful FE, he's generic and forgettable. Personally, I love Oscar...but mostly because of his dynamic with Boyd and Kieran more than the man himself.

I'm more of a fan of the former idea, realistic and understated, and I think it's healthier for FE's writing and characterization as a whole. Now, I love my comedic moments (Kieran and Boyd are some of the higher points in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn for me), but I feel like Awakening and Fates spammed them too much, to the point that they stopped being funny. Comedic relief, imo, needs to be handled carefully and used sparingly, or the audience will start groaning. Speaking of the mood whiplash I brought up earlier, it's combined with the fact that Awakening and Fates' plots are actually quite dark and introspective when you get down to it (the apocalypse is on the horizon and you may very well have to kill one of your friends to avoid it; and you're forced to choose between two warring sides that you have a personal connection to, with one irrevocably being destroyed by that choice) that the comedy feels so out of place. It's like, if the game isn't taking its own plot seriously, why should I?

It's almost enough to make you forget what's really at stake, or what the characters are really fighting for. Now, I'm not advertising the opposite, either, with grimdark characters brooding all the time, since that can get just as tiresome, but a little less silly shenanigans and a little more seriousness in the later games would have been nice. Just for consistency's sake, if nothing else.
 

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I don't know, I think the game just got better localizers and that the older games were more directly translated from Japanese, if anything, actually. I don't know enough about the subject so I can't say for certain, but I've noticed that when certain amateurs translate or scanlate something, they tend to be very literal, which makes the dialogue lifeless much in the same way as a lot of older Fire Emblem games had problem with. 

As for the suspension of disbelief, I'm afraid I don't quite see it; again, you can technically have Forde make a painting while fighting against Formotiis, I believe. 

More importantly, however, I fail to see the need for an overly stylized form of speech in a setting that may take place in the medieval age technologically, but not morally

I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think the older games as a whole were played as more down-to-earth and serious, with a tone change for Awakening. I know they were different localization teams responsible for localizing the older games in comparison to the latter games. They definitely weren't a direct translation, either, as localization almost never is.

While yeah, heat of battle supports can be very immersion breaking, I think Awakening and Fates are as a whole more distracting with their tendency to immersion break. Naked posters. I just...what? Frederick, what is wrong with you?  I'll admit that Kieran's "Fighting giant scorpions" and cutting his own head with his axe (holy shit, Kieran, how have you not killed yourself yet) is something of an immersion break as well, but Kieran is meant to be out of touch with reality and just plain weird. Frederick is meant to be a responsible and calm, if overly uptight and very strict... He'd know better than something like that!

The speech just fits with the rest of the setting, in my opinion. Having anything different is jarring, just like that Romeo and Juliet movie set in the '90s, with everyone talking in Elizabethan English. It's a novelty at first and can even be interesting, and then it just kind of becomes ridiculous and weird.

Now, FE has never been completely realistic in its medieval speech (thankfully, because that would be a bit too far imo; I don't want them to start talking like comic Marvel Thor and the Asgardians), but it's been as a whole more rigid and formal than average speech in the present. Awakening and Fates' use of slang and memes is just...a bit too unbelievable, in my opinion.
 

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Oh I get what you mean, but if we're cherry picking examples for immersion breaking, I've already mentioned Forde. If I am to give an example of stale writing, look at Gwendolyn and Ogier's C support, for example.

  Hide contents

Ogier: What are you doing, Gwendolyn?

Gwendolyn: I'm practicing my walking.

Ogier: Walking? Why?

Gwendolyn: For an Armor Knight, it's tough to get back up if you fall to the ground. You have to build strong legs to make sure that you will never fall.

Ogier: I see.

Gwendolyn: The basics are everything, Ogier.

Riveting stuff.

That's an example from Binding Blade, which has among the flattest characterization in the series...though I can kind of see some interest somewhere in there, with them bringing up a never-before stated weakness of armor knights... Plus, the visual of an armor knight like Gatrie flopping over and flailing around like a turtle stuck on its back is pretty amusing.

When it comes to "who cares?" supports in Awakening/Fates, I like to point to Chrom x Sumia support...in which Sumia bakes Chrom a pie. Oookay...Who cares? For a couple that's meant to be essentially the "canon" couple (implied heavily, other than Chrom x F!Robin), there's no chemistry or interest there. There is nothing fascinating or amusing about baking.
 

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Oh definitely, not all supports need to deal with gray morality or reveal that one of the soldiers is a single father who recites poetry at cafés for a quick extra buck to send home to his kids; some can just be about two people bonding, which is why Shiro/Caeldori is one of Fates' best supports. 

I definitely understand your point though, and this is the biggest issue I have with Awakening and Fates' supports; a lot of them could exist in a vacuum. However, as flawed as that system is, I often find myself defending the good supports that are there, since I feel like they're often being overlooked. Cherche and Lon'qu delve deep into the latter's past, Gaius and Maribelle have an unexpected past connection and Noire and Brady discuss how physically weak they are while bonding in the infirmary, to name a few.

That example you gave there made me chuckle. Lol... That feels like something FE would do, and it's pretty amusing to think of that.

Oh definitely, there are still some great supports in the later games. My favorites are Xander/Corrin supports, because Xander's wisdom and compassion is great and he is a great character in general, as well as Takumi/Kiragi, when Kiragi tells Takumi to stop being such an edgelord and cheer up for once. The problem is, those tend to get lost in the shuffle and are comparatively few and far between, as opposed to the supports in the older games, which were more limited, but more important and intriguing overall.

Except for Ilyana's supports in POR. Worthless, just like the flat character that Ilyana is.
 

Quote

I also believe it shows how certain fans hold the older games to a different standard than the new ones. It's like they're saying "well I like this character, so she can't be a 'waifu', which all of the newer games' female characters are!"

The funny thing about this is FE fans were calling characters in the series their 'waifus' (including and especially Lyn) with no one batting an eye before Awakening and Fates came out. And when they did, suddenly only losers and the bottom of the barrel FE fans used the term. The whiplash was pretty amusing.
 

Quote

I agree that it's a large part of the complaints and I understand where they're coming from, I really do, especially with characters like Camilla. However, it still feels like the Frozen syndrome which I mentioned earlier. Naturally any fandom will have issues with some games more than others, I'm not arguing against that at all, merely that it seems like the new games are subject to a scrutiny which doesn't apply to the older titles. This is just my general feeling on the subject, however, and not facts.

Very much agreed on this point. I mean, one could easily criticize RD to hell and back for the janky supports, questionable unit availability and balance (Haar and Shinon world order), and general inconsistency in writing between POR and RD, as well as the fact that unlocking the full story is a struggle (transferring data, beating the game twice, having a full Soren/Ike support, all that stuff). The game is still great, but yeah, it will never be as criticized as Awakening and Fates are.

Quote

I love the worldbuilding and cast of Tellius, but I'm not a big fan of Path of Radiance's plot. Aside from Ike being lowborn and its great subplots, it's a very standard story. Like in Blazing Blade, the villains make me roll my eyes more than anything, and Ike and Ashnard have a grand total of zero interactions before the final battle, which is such a downgrade from Lyon. I feel like Radiant Dawn benefited from having Path of Radiance's worldbuilding and previously established character connections to fall back on, even if it was fragmented and had a few poor writing decisions.

I think Path of Radiance's narrative is simple, but effective. It's very much the journey of a nobody who becomes great on his own strengths, rather than the name of his ancetors or what have you, while being embroiled in a conflict much larger than himself. Is it groundbreakingly amazing? Nah. But I think it's one of FE's better plots.

And yes, Tellius worldbuilding is astounding. Best worldbuilding in the series.

Ashnard and Ike, yeah, they really have nothing to do with each other whatsoever. It's almost at the point that I wish the Black Knight had been the final battle and the main villain....

Agreed on that note about benefiting from Path of Radiance. RD's main strengths is that it expanded and fleshed out Tellius more than Path of Radiance got a chance to, and we got major players from each side with their own subplots coming together to defeat Ashera. Though characterization in RD was still strong with the base conversations...except for the Dawn Brigade.

RIP. They were flatter characters than almost everyone else in the game and then their spotlight was stolen by Ike and the Greil Mercenaries.

Quote

I'm glad. I enjoy it too! It took a while to reply though because of Breath of the Wild.

Oh, nice! I hope to be getting it soon. Hope it lives up to the hype.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar

[The Malign Knight]

13 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think the older games as a whole were played as more down-to-earth and serious, with a tone change for Awakening. I know they were different localization teams responsible for localizing the older games in comparison to the latter games. They definitely weren't a direct translation, either, as localization almost never is.

IIRC the localization team that did Awakening was the same of SD and the localization team that did fates was the same of FE7, 8, 9 and 10.

That's an example from Binding Blade, which has among the flattest characterization in the series...though I can kind of see some interest somewhere in there, with them bringing up a never-before stated weakness of armor knights... Plus, the visual of an armor knight like Gatrie flopping over and flailing around like a turtle stuck on its back is pretty amusing.

To be fair, BB also doesn't have an actual localization and the translation tend to be more direct, making it sounds more...how can i say..."boring"? In a certain way. Also, I would recommend to delve more deeper in FE6 supports because there many hidden gems in the game actually

Oh definitely, there are still some great supports in the later games. My favorites are Xander/Corrin supports, because Xander's wisdom and compassion is great and he is a great character in general, as well as Takumi/Kiragi, when Kiragi tells Takumi to stop being such an edgelord and cheer up for once. The problem is, those tend to get lost in the shuffle and are comparatively few and far between, as opposed to the supports in the older games, which were more limited, but more important and intriguing overall.

Support!Xander is a fantastic character, I agree. But story!Xander? Not so much.
 

The funny thing about this is FE fans were calling characters in the series their 'waifus' (including and especially Lyn) with no one batting an eye before Awakening and Fates came out. And when they did, suddenly only losers and the bottom of the barrel FE fans used the term. The whiplash was pretty amusing.

Oh yeah, the good ol' FE fanbase pre-Awakening. I've heard not many good things about it, tbh. Especialy regarding shipping. In particualr regarding shipping

Agreed on that note about benefiting from Path of Radiance. RD's main strengths is that it expanded and fleshed out Tellius more than Path of Radiance got a chance to, and we got major players from each side with their own subplots coming together to defeat Ashera. Though characterization in RD was still strong with the base conversations...except for the Dawn Brigade.

RIP. They were flatter characters than almost everyone else in the game and then their spotlight was stolen by Ike and the Greil Mercenaries.

Hey now, Aran and Nolan are still much more interesting characters thand Danved, Mia and most of the Crimean knights.

I apologize for interfering in this debate of yours, but I really couldn't resist.

[Extrasolar]

 

2 hours ago, The Malign Knight said:

Support!Xander is a fantastic character, I agree. But story!Xander? Not so much.

Agreed 100%. Terrible Conquest writing screwed him over a lot...as did his awful supports with Peri. I like his character concept and most of his supports, but...yeesh, the poor guy deserved better.

2 hours ago, The Malign Knight said:

Oh yeah, the good ol' FE fanbase pre-Awakening. I've heard not many good things about it, tbh. Especialy regarding shipping. In particualr regarding shipping

Well, shipping wars have been a thing in every single fandom since the beginning of time. It's not like the FE fandom was this awful cesspool of hell or anything; in fact, as far as fandoms go, it was (and still is) one of the saner, more down-to-earth and calm ones. As long as you didn't criticize the Ike/Soren pairing you were good The FE fandom was much, much smaller pre-Awakening and Fates, for one particular thing.

More or less it was the same, though. As said early, SD and BB got the worst flack, with characters like Roy and Eliwood being criticized the most. Post Awakening and Fates, it swapped to those games.

2 hours ago, The Malign Knight said:

Hey now, Aran and Nolan are still much more interesting characters thand Danved, Mia and most of the Crimean knights.

Disagree. Aran gets a single conversation with Laura, where he shows little to no personality. We don't get any interactions with Laura outside of said conversation. Can't deny the guy was useful as hell as a tank for the squishy Dawn Brigade, but he got such little development that it was sad. Nolan comes off as better than the other Dawn Brigade units, but still, falls woefully short.

Mia, I believe, is more interesting than both simply because she had more development in POR; her conversations with Rhys, for example, and learning the backstory of why she's so desperate to prove herself as a warrior. Kieran is just plain hilarious, and despite his somewhat odd nature, shows depth in his attachment to his good friend Oscar. Geoffrey is...a loyal knight who likes Elincia, and not much else. Can't really argue with you there. Danved/Devdan... I never knew what the hell was supposed to be going on there.

Edited March 5, 2017 by Extrasolar

[mikethepokemaster]

1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

 

Agreed 100%. Terrible Conquest writing screwed him over a lot...as did his awful supports with Peri. I like his character concept and most of his supports, but...yeesh, the poor guy deserved better/

Well, shipping wars have been a thing in every single fandom since the beginning of time. It's not like the FE fandom was this awful cesspool of hell or anything; in fact, as far as fandoms go, it was (and still is) one of the saner, more down-to-earth and calm ones. As long as you didn't criticize the Ike/Soren pairing you were good The FE fandom was much, much smaller pre-Awakening and Fates, for one particular thing.

More or less it was the same, though. As said early, SD and BB got the worst flack, with characters like Roy and Eliwood being criticized the most. Post Awakening and Fates, it swapped to those games.

Disagree. Aran gets a single conversation with Laura, where he shows little to no personality. We don't get any interactions with Laura outside of said conversation. Can't deny the guy was useful as hell as a tank for the squishy Dawn Brigade, but he got such little development that it was sad. Nolan comes off as better than the other Dawn Brigade units, but still, falls woefully short.

Mia, I believe, is more interesting than both simply because she had more development in POR; her conversations with Rhys, for example, and learning the backstory of why she's so desperate to prove herself as a warrior. Kieran is just plain hilarious, and despite his somewhat odd nature, shows depth in his attachment to his good friend Oscar. Geoffrey is...a loyal knight who likes Elincia, and not much else. Can't really argue with you there. Danved/Devdan... I never knew what the hell was supposed to be going on there.

Tell that to the YouTuber who said the Fire Emblem is intimating or scary. He was chased off his playthrough. 

[Extrasolar]

11 minutes ago, mikethepokemaster said:

Tell that to the YouTuber who said the Fire Emblem is intimating or scary. He was chased off his playthrough. 

Wait, who are we talking about here? What game? I'll admit I don't know a lot about the FE fandom on YouTube (and I stay away from the comments sections on principle), so as far I know, they could be a vocal minority. The majority of FE fans I've come into contact with are reasonable, relaxed people.

Every fandom has its crazies, after all.

[mikethepokemaster]

1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

Wait, who are we talking about here? What game? I'll admit I don't know a lot about the FE fandom on YouTube (and I stay away from the comments sections on principle), so as far I know, they could be a vocal minority. The majority of FE fans I've come into contact with are reasonable, relaxed people.

Every fandom has its crazies, after all.

The fan base on YouTube harass him about one of 3ds games and pretty much telling him to play. I could be wrong on the last part. It has a discussion on the general fire emblem page.

[Tsak]

Just hopefully this game doesn't feel like SD. that's the only FE i never was able to finish. Honestly i couldn't even tell you what chapter i stopped playing at, nothing seemed to be generally interesting in the slightest. Really sad too because i felt like the combat was fine and i enjoyed the arena system. Idk it just bored me to death, but that's just my opinion. If i ever find it or get my hands on it again i'd finish it just for completion sake... But this game seems to have more going for it than SD. I wouldn't say more care, but more attention? Art style is drastically superior, that helps with immersion greatly

[Thane]

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

Oh, nice! I hope to be getting it soon. Hope it lives up to the hype.

It's fantastic. I just beat it so I'm a bit groggy because I've practically done nothing besides playing the game for three days now, so I hope my replies will be coherent.

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

I'm not going to deny that Awakening's and Fates' writing was fun, and it definitely had a lot more funny moments than the previous games had overall. But I think the main conversation is serious/believable versus comedic/lighthearted.

For people who like the former, Awakening's and Fates' tones are jarring and immersion-breaking, while for people who like the latter, the earlier games are dry and even boring at points.

I would disagree with your assessment because I think it strikes a nice balance, and while the comedic tone can be too frequent, I wouldn't say that what is actually being said in those supports is worse than the older games. This might just be a difference in opinion.

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

It's almost enough to make you forget what's really at stake, or what the characters are really fighting for. Now, I'm not advertising the opposite, either, with grimdark characters brooding all the time, since that can get just as tiresome, but a little less silly shenanigans and a little more seriousness in the later games would have been nice. Just for consistency's sake, if nothing else.

Indeed, like I said, this is my major gripe with the current system since it's like they exist in a vacuum. 

That being said, while I'm strongly against characters who are quirky and offer nothing else - which is why I argue that from that point of view alone, Setsuna is the worst written character in the series - something needs to be done to give all of these characters some personality. Oscar's a good example of that done well since he sticks out in a good way, but his brother fares much poorer and is ecplised by the much better written characters of the Tellius series. With dozens upon dozens of characters in each installment, however, you can't just have it be populated by Oscars. 

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

I don't think that's necessarily the case. I think the older games as a whole were played as more down-to-earth and serious, with a tone change for Awakening. I know they were different localization teams responsible for localizing the older games in comparison to the latter games. They definitely weren't a direct translation, either, as localization almost never is.

While yeah, heat of battle supports can be very immersion breaking, I think Awakening and Fates are as a whole more distracting with their tendency to immersion break. Naked posters. I just...what? Frederick, what is wrong with you?  I'll admit that Kieran's "Fighting giant scorpions" and cutting his own head with his axe (holy shit, Kieran, how have you not killed yourself yet) is something of an immersion break as well, but Kieran is meant to be out of touch with reality and just plain weird. Frederick is meant to be a responsible and calm, if overly uptight and very strict... He'd know better than something like that!

I'd like to point out that while that's true what you say about Frederick, his point is also that he's consumed by his duty and loyalty; he's a horrible people person outside of being a lieutenant, as shown in many supports. It's still very out there, don't get me wrong, but there could be worse characters saying that.

I think this ties in to what has already been said. I believe the comedic tone is too common in the newer titles, but it's lacking in the earlier ones. I often struggle to remember the names of the characters in Blazing Blade and sometimes even a few in Tellius (like Boyd) because they're either completely overshadowed by a handful or they're just plain boring.

Some of Awakening's best dialogue also comes from the DLC. Even the fan service DLC's offer great exchanges between certain characters that are very serious or develop their characters well, like Inigo and Owain on the Harvest Scramble map. I know you're not saying Awakening doesn't have its serious moments, and once again I think the comedic tone is too common, I do like pointing out how there are many conversations that deal with what you're bringing up as good examples. Maybe all we need is a combination of the old and the new.

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

The speech just fits with the rest of the setting, in my opinion. Having anything different is jarring, just like that Romeo and Juliet movie set in the '90s, with everyone talking in Elizabethan English. It's a novelty at first and can even be interesting, and then it just kind of becomes ridiculous and weird.

Now, FE has never been completely realistic in its medieval speech (thankfully, because that would be a bit too far imo; I don't want them to start talking like comic Marvel Thor and the Asgardians), but it's been as a whole more rigid and formal than average speech in the present. Awakening and Fates' use of slang and memes is just...a bit too unbelievable, in my opinion.

As a linguist I'll always be mildly irritated at the decision to make "human" the incorrect term and "beorc" the proper one. It's just so backwards...

Fair enough with the memes, that I can definitely understand and agree with, provided it doesn't actually fit and is inserted in a subtle manner (Nina has a perfect example of this in the English version). It seems to be an American localization thing in general, as I've seen comparisons in I believe Zelda games where the dialogue was less serious in the American version compared to the European one.

Slang, however, has always existed and will always exist; that does not bother me at all, unless you can think of a glaring example to show me what you mean?

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

That's an example from Binding Blade, which has among the flattest characterization in the series...though I can kind of see some interest somewhere in there, with them bringing up a never-before stated weakness of armor knights

I think that's giving this exchange more credit than it's due, personally. Now we come back to my general question of what people mean when they want to go back to how earlier titles were, because if Binding Blade has flat characterization, as well as Shadow Dragon, then when was this glorious golden age of Fire Emblem characterization? Blazing Blade, Sacred Stones and Tellius? Are they the only ones? 

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

When it comes to "who cares?" supports in Awakening/Fates, I like to point to Chrom x Sumia support...in which Sumia bakes Chrom a pie. Oookay...Who cares? For a couple that's meant to be essentially the "canon" couple (implied heavily, other than Chrom x F!Robin), there's no chemistry or interest there. There is nothing fascinating or amusing about baking.

We can sit here and discuss those kinds of supports all day but we wouldn't actually get anywhere; we'd probably just agree with each other on which supports are boring. It is strange that they didn't focus more on Chrom and Sumia's support for sure, but part of me wonders if this isn't just a Japanese thing where it's a sign of affection to cook someone lunch (I believe it's bento boxes in the Japanese version). 

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

Oh definitely, there are still some great supports in the later games. My favorites are Xander/Corrin supports, because Xander's wisdom and compassion is great and he is a great character in general, as well as Takumi/Kiragi, when Kiragi tells Takumi to stop being such an edgelord and cheer up for once. The problem is, those tend to get lost in the shuffle and are comparatively few and far between, as opposed to the supports in the older games, which were more limited, but more important and intriguing overall.

Are they really though? For sure you've got gems such as Duessel/Knoll, but you've still got your Mias and your Nephenees who are practically limited to talking about just one single thing. They might be easier to find given the better support system of for example Path of Radiance, but there's still a lot of dialogue that's straight up unnecessary or repeating. 

Xander and Corrin have a bloody great support though. Weird considering their main story selves.

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

The funny thing about this is FE fans were calling characters in the series their 'waifus' (including and especially Lyn) with no one batting an eye before Awakening and Fates came out. And when they did, suddenly only losers and the bottom of the barrel FE fans used the term. The whiplash was pretty amusing.

I believe this picture can sum it up nicely: 

Spoiler

http://skullheart.com/index.php?attachments/img_1157-jpg.14267/

I will always be confused by the special rules set for someone like Lyn. Look, I only use the term "waifu" as a joke, but how is she not a candidate for being considered one? She's a busty 15-year-old (conveniently aged up in the West) who shows off a lot of leg and is the Fire Emblem character many people were introduced to, and the first thing she does is taking care of "you". I don't know, and I know you're not one of the people claiming she's got some kind of special status, it's just a bit strange to me. Well, maybe not, maybe it's just nostalgia (and I'm not saying people like Lyn because of nostalgia, but those who hold her to a completely different standard are blinded by it).

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

Very much agreed on this point. I mean, one could easily criticize RD to hell and back for the janky supports, questionable unit availability and balance (Haar and Shinon world order), and general inconsistency in writing between POR and RD, as well as the fact that unlocking the full story is a struggle (transferring data, beating the game twice, having a full Soren/Ike support, all that stuff). The game is still great, but yeah, it will never be as criticized as Awakening and Fates are.

Agreed, and I've got no problems admitting my favorite game had a fragmented plot, too many nonsensical supports and a strange gameplay balance. Plus, characters missed bloody feet.

Also don't forget about Ike ditching his friends, family and crew out of the blue after Radiant Dawn.

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

I think Path of Radiance's narrative is simple, but effective. It's very much the journey of a nobody who becomes great on his own strengths, rather than the name of his ancetors or what have you, while being embroiled in a conflict much larger than himself. Is it groundbreakingly amazing? Nah. But I think it's one of FE's better plots.

I'm going to be that guy and say the competition isn't that tough either. It's got some great themes and subplots, but the overarching story is very simple, and Ike does suffer from moments were people swoon over him, though less so than in Radiant Dawn. I'm not saying he doesn't have his fair share of problems, I mean hell two people leave him as soon as his father dies, but many conversations boil down to "you're blunt and honest, I like that!". 

Bah, sorry, I shouldn't nipick my issues with the plot in too great detail; we'd get nowhere that way. While Path of Radiance is solid, it still suffers because of its villains, which is another common element in the series, though the biggest offenders are by far Blazing Blade and Fates. 

On 2017-03-04 at 10:20 AM, Extrasolar said:

Agreed on that note about benefiting from Path of Radiance. RD's main strengths is that it expanded and fleshed out Tellius more than Path of Radiance got a chance to, and we got major players from each side with their own subplots coming together to defeat Ashera. Though characterization in RD was still strong with the base conversations...except for the Dawn Brigade.

I don't care if Skrimir was practically holding a neon sign that said "I will receive character development!" in the beginning of the game, I love that guy. He's got one of the most badass exchanges in the entire series with Ranulf where they're retreating and he's carrying wounded people and offers to carry even more in spite of his own injuries, ignoring them so that he can look strong for his men. The guy is a beast - literally and figuratively!

[DragonFlames]

I planned on not participating in conversations about Fire Emblem Echoes until I got the game myself, but I feel somewhat compelled to now.

First things first: I'm looking forward to it, but my expectations are low, as it is a remake of a game that came out two years before I was born. I'm sure gameplay will be incredibly fun like every Fire Emblem game I played INCLUDING Shadow Dragon.

Another thing to note is that I have not once in my life played Gaiden and probably never will. My introduction to Fire Emblem was Path of Radiance and the oldest Fire Emblem game I played was Sword of Seals (which I found to be incredibly unfair in parts, but still quite fun in its own right).

With that out of the way, I think I should get to my own hopes and fears now:

Hopes

1.) A fleshed out cast of characters. As far as I've heard, Gaiden's cast was small. This is a perfect opportunity for them to flesh out every single cast member more and have them participate in crucial story events. This is a point that has always bugged me in Fire Emblem. Some characters are 'important' for one chapter and forgotten in the very next if you didn't bother to go for supports. I hope they pull a Stella Glow and make all characters relevant in the main story somehow.

2.) A tightly knit and well-written story with a well-built world. This one is self-explanatory. The same goes for support conversations. I'm someone who gets invested in the world and story of the games I play and I want to know more about it and its characters than 'this is the world, these are the characters, now go save everything and kill the bad guy'

3,) The game not feeling too archaic. Basically, I don't want this to be a full-on remake, but a modified one. Like a 'what if Gaiden had modern FE gameplay mechanics?' kind of thing. Minus the S-supports. Those need to leave. I'm fine with supports ending in marriage, if that marriage is relegated to an Epilogue or special scene after the regular ending like in Blazing Sword.

Fears

1.) The game feeling too archaic. If it is a full-on remake, this game will crash hard. The two ways to remake Gaiden that will cause it to bomb are: stick to the original instead of improving upon it (like Shadow Dragon) or just throw random new stuff in there that doesn't fit in with little to no logical explanation on why it even exists and then calling it a day, instead of something sensible that other games after the original did (like Pokémon Omega Ruby and Alpha Sapphire).

2.) The return of popular Fates' characters because of pandering. I don't want to suffer through another game with Takumi or Xander or worse, both. I don't! I don't! I don't!

Here's a fun little game: Figure out what I just referenced. You'll get an imaginary cookie if you guess right!

Now to address some of the points others have made, because those questions have been eating away at me:

About 'waifus': I'm pretty sure those have been around since the inception of the term in Azumanga Daioh! and they certainly were not an invention by Awakening or Fates. What exactly makes Nah and Hana worse than, say, Myrrh and Mia, other than the fact that 'you' are able to romance the former two?

About 'fanservice' in the context of 'sexy' outfits for females and males alike: Berserkers have always been shirtless, females always wore more form-fitting and revealing clothing than males (in post-FE6 games including FE6, anyways). What makes Awakening and Fates any different from older games other than the fact that it is more noticeable due to improved graphics?

Granted, you do have Dark Mages who dress up a bit more skimpy than their Druid and Shaman counterparts used to (compare Ophelia to Sophia, for example) and there's the butt window on most mounted classes (although that only concerns some characters) and of course Camilla, but other than that, I'd say the outfits have gotten at least a little tamer compared to before (compare, for example, Nephenee to Oboro in their final promoted classes, Rebecca to Setsuna in their artworks. Ilyana to Miriel or Mist to Elise, Sakura and Lissa), while others have stayed pretty much at the same level of 'fanservice' (the Myrmidon/Swordmaster related designs, for example).

[Extrasolar]

2 hours ago, Thane said:

I would disagree with your assessment because I think it strikes a nice balance, and while the comedic tone can be too frequent, I wouldn't say that what is actually being said in those supports is worse than the older games. This might just be a difference in opinion.

I don't think what was said was "worse" (i.e., sillier or stranger, because some of the older ones really are just as out there), but I think the general mood-whiplash and indecision to decide on a strong overall tone hurts FE overall. (Though earlier FEs weren't perfect in this regard, either, as I'll expand on later on).

2 hours ago, Thane said:

That being said, while I'm strongly against characters who are quirky and offer nothing else - which is why I argue that from that point of view alone, Setsuna is the worst written character in the series - something needs to be done to give all of these characters some personality. Oscar's a good example of that done well since he sticks out in a good way, but his brother fares much poorer and is ecplised by the much better written characters of the Tellius series. With dozens upon dozens of characters in each installment, however, you can't just have it be populated by Oscars. 

I see Setsuna partially as a failed attempt to recapture Haar's magic. One of Haar's main traits is his laziness and general apathy to everything, but even he has his relationship as Jill's pseudo big brother and mentor to give him depth, as well as his loyalty to Shiharam to fall back on.

I agree wholeheartedly on the laziness of just giving a character a quirk and calling it a day in an attempt to make them stand out or hook an audience; I think characters should be made interesting through time and depth, the way Shinon and Soren (who initially tend to come off as one-note assholes, if being good at tactics and an amazing archer count as other character traits) gained much more depth and became two of the more memorable characters in the Tellius series because of it.

While Awakening/Fates' more exaggerated character writing definitely made characters more immediately memorable (I mean, I'll always remember my favorite character from Awakening, Lon'qu, as that "hyber-badass and stoic swordsman that loses his shit around women."), I feel like the later games rely too heavily on trying to make every character a comedic character, when that simply doesn't work when your plot involves apocalypse dragons, and even in more serious moments it can be difficult to take comedic characters, well, seriously. (Kieran is the best way they've done this, in my opinion, and it's what's felt the most natural.)

On the flipside, If there is one thing I can say about Awakening and Fates, it's at least that the comedy fit much better into the tone of the game in question. I mean, in Tellius alone, you have moments like Soren flirting with and flattering Aimee in order to try and get a discount of her wares. While funny, it's a little...cringe, just because of the game's tone, and Soren's general realistic moodiness. Something like that would definitely fit into Awakening and Fates without breaking immersion.

Though on the same merit, when everyone is quirky and exaggerated, you can't really make "quirky and exaggerated" a character type like it was in the older games anymore. When everyone is weird, no one is, all of that. When you don't have a straight man or "normal" character, a lot of the comedy tends to fall flat, as wacky vs. wacky is only funny temporarily before it just becomes strange (which is why the Oscar/Kieran supports work so well, with Oscar as the straight man).

2 hours ago, Thane said:

I'd like to point out that while that's true what you say about Frederick, his point is also that he's consumed by his duty and loyalty; he's a horrible people person outside of being a lieutenant, as shown in many supports. It's still very out there, don't get me wrong, but there could be worse characters saying that.

I think this ties in to what has already been said. I believe the comedic tone is too common in the newer titles, but it's lacking in the earlier ones. I often struggle to remember the names of the characters in Blazing Blade and sometimes even a few in Tellius (like Boyd) because they're either completely overshadowed by a handful or they're just plain boring.

Some of Awakening's best dialogue also comes from the DLC. Even the fan service DLC's offer great exchanges between certain characters that are very serious or develop their characters well, like Inigo and Owain on the Harvest Scramble map. I know you're not saying Awakening doesn't have its serious moments, and once again I think the comedic tone is too common, I do like pointing out how there are many conversations that deal with what you're bringing up as good examples. Maybe all we need is a combination of the old and the new.

I can get behind the fact that Frederick is meant to be far more eccentric and strange than he is at first glance (one of my favorite lines of his in Heroes is "Today, like every other day, I woke up early to clear away pebbles." Just...what? That's pretty amusing, in all honesty), but I do feel like naked posters is a bit too far and simply too quirky for him... But then again, Chrom doesn't care if people see him naked, as shown in his support with F!Robin. Maybe Frederick is just tapping into that.

The comedic tone isn't as exaggerated as in the newer games, but it's not that it wasn't there (not speaking on the games that haven't been officially localized, just for fairness' sake).  Just a few to illustrate my point: Shadow Dragon, there's the "Gaggles" scene, Marth's confused reaction to "Mar-Mar."  Blazing Blade had Serra's dialogue/moments with Erk, Eliwood/Hector's first support conversation ("whose snoring shook the rafters in numbers' class?"), Sacred Stones had L'Arachel flipping out over getting to see Ephraim's bare shoulder (talking about it as though it was equivalent to seeing him naked), Lute randomly attacking Knoll because he's a "threat" to her "natural superiority," etc. All off the top of my head.

Tellius did better in the comedic regard, I feel, which was funny, as it had a darker story than any game before barring Genealogy. It had Kieran's antics, Gatrie's ridiculous gullibility (and "I could put a skirt on a tree" line will always be the highlight of funny moments in FE for me), Boyd's meatheaded nature, Haar's apathy, as well as bratty Tormod's supports with Calill and Danved, and of course, Sothe being "the father of Ike's children."

I'd argue that they work even better, since you're not expecting to read something silly in the middle of the serious tone. And they are as a whole more balanced, as for the most part, the funny moments were in the supports. While you could argue that this made them too obscure, I think it's a good thing to keep them out of the main story for the most part, to keep up the tension and uncertainty of the main plot. The comic relief was just that, momentary relief from the heavy tones. I believe in general FE should go back to that.

As for Boyd, I don't think he comes off as boring or generic at all, personally, due to his hotheaded and dense nature; I mean, he's the same guy that somehow managed to break his axe on his first-ever excursion as a mercenary. Have you read Boyd's conversations with Titania? 100% hilarious.
 

Spoiler

Boyd: Titania! I couldn’t find you anywhere! With all the war councils and everything, I never get to see you anymore.
Titania: Hello, Boyd. You know, your recent performance has been superb. I can’t even chew you out for old time’s sake.
Boyd: I don’t want you to yell at me again. That’s not why I’m here. I just… Is there anything you want, Titania?
Titania: I can’t think of anything in particular. Why do you ask?
Boyd: We got a big reward the other day, you know? So I wanted to buy you something. As thanks for helping me.
Titania: Aha! Now that you’re a true warrior, you’ve learned some chivalry as well!
Boyd: Heh. So, name it. Anything. New chain mail? Gauntlets? How about a killer axe?
Titania: Thanks for the offer, Boyd. But you earned that money. You should spend it on yourself.
Boyd: Don’t you get it!? I want to give you a gift!
Titania: Boyd? What are you–
Boyd: Every time I look at you, Titania… I think that you’re the prettiest person I’ve ever seen!
Titania: Uh… Um, thank you, Boyd… But I… Look, you and me, we’re–
Boyd: You’re like a really nice mom or something! Um… I mean…
Titania: …
Boyd: Wait, that’s not… Oh, man… Look, that’s not what I meant. I mean, it is, but–
Titania: Boyd?
Boyd: Yeah?
Titania: How old do you think I am?
Boyd: Well, let me see… Are you… younger than my mother?
Titania: …Um…
Boyd: …Yeah… Um… I gotta go!
Titania: Boyd! Wait up!

And then there's the Haar/Makalov support.

Spoiler

Haar: Hmm…? Hey! You’re that…
Makalov: Nooooo!!!
Haar: Yes, you are. You’re that weird guy I saw the other day.
Haar: Hey, stop right there!
Makalov: Please…have mercy on me! I’ll pay you back…I swear!
Haar: What are you yammering on about?
Makalov: Honestly, I only ran off the other day because I didn’t have the money on me. I was just…running home to fetch it. Sweet mercy…I’m begging you! I’m too talented and beautiful to die! Give me more time to pay you back!
Haar: Pay me back? What are you talking about?
Makalov: Huh? Wait… So you’re not… a debt collector?
Haar: A debt collector? Did you fall on your head?
Makalov: Are you SURE you’re not a debt collector?
Haar: I don’t remember being one. And I think I’d remember something like that.
Makalov: What!? You’re not!? Phew! Hah…you had me there. I mean…just one nasty look from that face of yours could scare a man to death!
Haar: So you’re saying I’m ugly, is that it? I look like some kind of thug to you?
Makalov: No, no, no! Not at all. You’re very…handsome. Ruggedly handsome…yeah…
Haar: Hmmm. That was weird. Oh well…back to sleep.

 

2 hours ago, Thane said:

I'm going to be that guy and say the competition isn't that tough either. It's got some great themes and subplots, but the overarching story is very simple, and Ike does suffer from moments were people swoon over him, though less so than in Radiant Dawn. I'm not saying he doesn't have his fair share of problems, I mean hell two people leave him as soon as his father dies, but many conversations boil down to "you're blunt and honest, I like that!". 

Bah, sorry, I shouldn't nipick my issues with the plot in too great detail; we'd get nowhere that way. While Path of Radiance is solid, it still suffers because of its villains, which is another common element in the series, though the biggest offenders are by far Blazing Blade and Fates. 

Agreed on that front. People do occasionally treat Ike like he's the second coming of their god when he doesn't do much but stand there and make a straightforward comment on something. Granted, you could argue that as they're used to nobility's passive-aggressive combat and false politeness, they find it remarkably refreshing, and much more unusual than we do.

That's why I loved how completely and totally done Shinon is with Ike. The guy is still a douche, but at the very least, we get an older allied character who wasn't worshipping the ground Ike was walking on.

And then RD robbed Ike of most of what made him interesting in the first place, but that's a story for another day.
 

2 hours ago, Thane said:

Also don't forget about Ike ditching his friends, family and crew out of the blue after Radiant Dawn.

I will never forget, just because of the sheer WTF value of it. So, yeah, Ike, you're going to completely abandon your father's legacy and memory as well as the surrogate family you've been through hell and back with just so you can travel to parts unknown for some inexplicable reason. GG, man, GG. WORST, MOST OOC CHARACTER ENDING EVER
 

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

2.) The return of popular Fates' characters because of pandering. I don't want to suffer through another game with Takumi or Xander or worse, both. I don't! I don't! I don't!

Here's a fun little game: Figure out what I just referenced. You'll get an imaginary cookie if you guess right!

Fire Emblem Heroes. Right? Do I get the cookie?

 

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

1.) A fleshed out cast of characters. As far as I've heard, Gaiden's cast was small. This is a perfect opportunity for them to flesh out every single cast member more and have them participate in crucial story events. This is a point that has always bugged me in Fire Emblem. Some characters are 'important' for one chapter and forgotten in the very next if you didn't bother to go for supports. I hope they pull a Stella Glow and make all characters relevant in the main story somehow.

2.) A tightly knit and well-written story with a well-built world. This one is self-explanatory. The same goes for support conversations. I'm someone who gets invested in the world and story of the games I play and I want to know more about it and its characters than 'this is the world, these are the characters, now go save everything and kill the bad guy'

3,) The game not feeling too archaic. Basically, I don't want this to be a full-on remake, but a modified one. Like a 'what if Gaiden had modern FE gameplay mechanics?' kind of thing. Minus the S-supports. Those need to leave. I'm fine with supports ending in marriage, if that marriage is relegated to an Epilogue or special scene after the regular ending like in Blazing Sword.

Agreed on pretty much all of this.

1 hour ago, DragonFlames said:

About 'fanservice' in the context of 'sexy' outfits for females and males alike: Berserkers have always been shirtless, females always wore more form-fitting and revealing clothing than males (in post-FE6 games including FE6, anyways). What makes Awakening and Fates any different from older games other than the fact that it is more noticeable due to improved graphics?

It's an issue of exaggeration and scope, and how blatant things became. While elements of fanservice have always existed in FE, the older games downplayed them much, much, much more. Male berserkers lacking shirts wasn't meant to be fanservice, but as a way for them to show off all of their impressive muscles; Largo's design in POR is much and the same. He's shirtless, but in full, thick pants and with crossing straps and ornamentation on his shoulders. He's not a fanservice design, but a power fantasy design.

Charlotte, on the other hand, the same class as Largo, is literally wearing nothing but a bikini and inexplicable pieces of armor stuck on. And Camilla's..."armor" is practically designed to show off the sexy bits, and Camilla's introduction cutscene in Birthright goes out of its way to objectify her by focusing on her bust and backside. On the contrary, women in the older titles (even the ones with more revealing outfits like Ilyana's miniskirt) were never drawn or depicted in objectifying poses.

The fanservice elements in FE could easily be overlooked in the older games, since they weren't as in-your-face as they were played in Awakening (Tharja and Olivia), and Fates (Charlotte, and most of all Camilla as mentioned above).

I do know that there are also more conservatively-dressed women alongside them (you brought up Miriel and Oboro, who are good examples of that), but it's the sheer amount of transparency in their goals (Camilla and Charlotte are pretty much exclusively designed to appeal sexually to people attracted to women).

It's very possible to do a more "revealing" design tastefully - I point to Nailah of RD's design, as it's more revealing than other Tellius designs, but she doesn't have everything but the essential bits hanging out the way Charlotte does. Even Nephenee's design, which is inexplicably lacking leg armor, is fully covered as far as her torso goes. The worst Calill has is a long dress with slits up the side, which is similar to Lyn, and actually less revealing overall.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Extrasolar

[FoxyGrandpa]

Honestly even if this game is a barebones remake, its still likely to be well received by most people and critics. Shadow Dragon, despite many fans claiming that it almost "killed" the series, still did better than radiant dawn in both sales and reviews from the general public, showing that reverting back to more archaic mechanics and map design really did not drastically effect the public's opinion on the game. (Although tbf Shadow Dragon is nowhere as barebones of a remake as people make it out to be imo, tons of great changes to the UI, class system, mid-battle saves, and difficulty make it a solid game in its own right).

If people want this game to do well, then all IS and Nintendo need to do is give it proper advertisements that entice people to buy it. Not being advertised is the largest reasons older fire emblem games sold so poorly.

Personally, given the way things are shaping out to be, I don't think IS is updating this game's battle system in any notable way, aside from making everything more clear (which admittingly was a key issue in the original game). If anything, their focus seems to be more on updating the aspects that made Gaiden a pretty unique game compared to others in the series, namely the dungeon crawling aspect. This game likely won't receive the same fan criticism Shadow Dragon did only because this game is so different in comparison, whereas Shadow Dragon was a more basic story.

[Jave]

On the topic of fanservice between the older and newer games:

I agree that there's a bigger focus on fanservice in the newer games, but I attribute this to the fact that anime in general has gotten much more "fanservicey" that it used to be, and FE has always been a very "anime" series. Note how the two NES games use designs very much like 80s anime, while the SNES ones are closer to stuff like Saint Seiya. FE hasn't really changed as much as it had to "adapt" to the anime crowd it has always been aimed at.

The older games don't have as much fanservice as the newer ones, true. But it needs to be noted that a lot of the fanservice in the older games was, in fact, considered too much back in the day. People complained about the Catgirls ("What is this furry animu shit") in the Tellius games, as well as a lot of those characters showing a lot more than usual for the sake of fanservice ("Micaiah's sexy legs" was actually a common topic of discussion back in the day). Even in the older games (Kaga era), the official artwork of the characters tend to favor the female ones a lot more in terms of fanservice. Compare Merric and Linde, for example. It's night and day.

The point I'm trying to make is, FE games are a product of their time. Whatever tendencies we see in anime in the future, is what we'll likely see happen in FE as well. Things change. Trends change. People change. Games have to change too.

[The Malign Knight]

On ‎05‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 1:12 AM, Extrasolar said:

Disagree. Aran gets a single conversation with Laura, where he shows little to no personality. We don't get any interactions with Laura outside of said conversation. Can't deny the guy was useful as hell as a tank for the squishy Dawn Brigade, but he got such little development that it was sad. Nolan comes off as better than the other Dawn Brigade units, but still, falls woefully short.

Mia, I believe, is more interesting than both simply because she had more development in POR; her conversations with Rhys, for example, and learning the backstory of why she's so desperate to prove herself as a warrior. Kieran is just plain hilarious, and despite his somewhat odd nature, shows depth in his attachment to his good friend Oscar. Geoffrey is...a loyal knight who likes Elincia, and not much else. Can't really argue with you there. Danved/Devdan... I never knew what the hell was supposed to be going on there.

First, I would like to apologize for replying only now.

But anyway, I disagree: Mia doesn't really develop and is always stuck on her boring "hurr durr training". There is also the fact that her Whole "rival in a White dress" ""subplot"" is never truly ended in the game. Aran, instead, while he is not a character to write home about, shows to be a person who thinks of himself of who he is: a soldier and doesn't inspire to be a hero or something like that. No more and no less.

Regarding kieran, i hope I'm not sounding arrogant, but...where is the "depth" in his attachment to Oscar? I mean, sure, their friendship/rivalry is nice - altough not the best when talking about the Cain and Abel archetype - but It's not really something I would say It's something that gives much depth to Kieran.

Ironically enough, Geoffrey is one of the few Crimean Knights I like, altough It's more because I just love the "White knight" characters like him.

 

[Extrasolar]

1 hour ago, The Malign Knight said:

But anyway, I disagree: Mia doesn't really develop and is always stuck on her boring "hurr durr training". There is also the fact that her Whole "rival in a White dress" ""subplot"" is never truly ended in the game.

I disagree. While I do think that her character focuses disproportionately on her training, her backstory gives her depth - she's not a training nut just to be a training nut, but to prove that she's not inherently inferior as a woman. That alone I think is admirable, but even in the context of her training obsession, she's shown to be not so into herself and her training that she harms or forgets about the needs of others; despite how excited she is over Rhys being her potential rival, she eases up on him and apologizes when it's clear that he can't handle her training regiment. Had she been truly "training is literally the only thing," she wouldn't have done that.

I think that subplot wasn't ended simply because she went to a crooked fortune-teller who made up some nonsense, and that Mia is a little too dense to realize that it's false (considering how generally vague and unhelpful fortune-tellers tend to be in FE as a whole). But all of that is just speculation, of course.
 

1 hour ago, The Malign Knight said:

Regarding kieran, i hope I'm not sounding arrogant, but...where is the "depth" in his attachment to Oscar? I mean, sure, their friendship/rivalry is nice - altough not the best when talking about the Cain and Abel archetype - but It's not really something I would say It's something that gives much depth to Kieran.

Kieran, at first glance, is nothing but a thickheaded weirdo out-of-touch with the world and reality. He's constantly boasting about outlandish feats, and seems to be blind to reality.

Its extremely easy to write him off as a weird, off-kilter guy, especially when he starts yelling about how Oscar is a "fiend" and a "knave" and a "coward"...and then he begs Oscar to rejoin the Crimean Knights. While at first he tries to go "well it's the honorable thing to do to rejoin and help out Crimea," it isn't until the last conversation that he suddenly drops it, and confesses that he just wants his best friend Oscar to rejoin the knights (in a Kieran way, he talks about how Oscar was given the "honor" of being his archrival). Hey, what do you know, he's capable of being serious and genuine in his feelings, even if his way of saying it somewhat roundabout.
 

1 hour ago, The Malign Knight said:

Ironically enough, Geoffrey is one of the few Crimean Knights I like, altough It's more because I just love the "White knight" characters like him.

I like Geoffrey, too, but he's definitely not the most amazingly deep character in the world. And a lot of his characterization is hinged on Elincia, which does kind of hurt him overall.
 

17 hours ago, Jave said:

The older games don't have as much fanservice as the newer ones, true. But it needs to be noted that a lot of the fanservice in the older games was, in fact, considered too much back in the day. People complained about the Catgirls ("What is this furry animu shit") in the Tellius games, as well as a lot of those characters showing a lot more than usual for the sake of fanservice ("Micaiah's sexy legs" was actually a common topic of discussion back in the day). Even in the older games (Kaga era), the official artwork of the characters tend to favor the female ones a lot more in terms of fanservice. Compare Merric and Linde, for example. It's night and day.

Oh yeah, FE has always had fanservice-y elements, but they were done much more tastefully than they are in Awakening and Fates. Lethe is a catgirl in short shorts, but the game itself never goes out of its way to ogle her the way it does with Camilla (and Lethe's artworks are just as non-sexualized as the male characters' artwork). Fates' Camilla and Charlotte were downright nauseating (for me, at least) in just how much they were objectified. Character designs shamelessly subscribing to "sex sells" is disappointing imo for a lot of reasons.

And arguing that "at the time this was considered bad" definitely doesn't excuse the later games, since...well, it got worse. A lot worse. If anything, it made people realize just how good they had it until Awakening and Fates super-exaggerated it all.

Characters have had revealing outfits since day one, which is definitely something that should be noted and criticized, but they at least had the decency to play it classy for the most part.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Troykv]

16 hours ago, Jave said:

The older games don't have as much fanservice as the newer ones, true. But it needs to be noted that a lot of the fanservice in the older games was, in fact, considered too much back in the day. People complained about the Catgirls ("What is this furry animu shit") in the Tellius games, as well as a lot of those characters showing a lot more than usual for the sake of fanservice ("Micaiah's sexy legs" was actually a common topic of discussion back in the day). Even in the older games (Kaga era), the official artwork of the characters tend to favor the female ones a lot more in terms of fanservice. Compare Merric and Linde, for example. It's night and day.

OMG XDDD Why I didn't arrived sooner to the Fire Emblem discussions? This is funny in the hindsight (the future FE Games got even more fanservicey and in more ridiculous ways) and a bit ironic because the side-slits with pantyhose/leggins/tight pants/whatevertheyare and thighhighs exists even since the Kaga's Era and also Silvia/Lene/Laylea, but in her in makes more sense to be fanservice designs.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Troykv

[The Malign Knight]

47 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

I disagree. While I do think that her character focuses disproportionately on her training, her backstory gives her depth - she's not a training nut just to be a training nut, but to prove that she's not inherently inferior as a woman. That alone I think is admirable, but even in the context of her training obsession, she's shown to be not so into herself and her training that she harms or forgets about the needs of others; despite how excited she is over Rhys being her potential rival, she eases up on him and apologizes when it's clear that he can't handle her training regiment. Had she been truly "training is literally the only thing," she wouldn't have done that.

I think that subplot wasn't ended simply because she went to a crooked fortune-teller who made up some nonsense, and that Mia is a little too dense to realize that it's false (considering how generally vague and unhelpful fortune-tellers tend to be in FE as a whole). But all of that is just speculation, of course.

Eh. Fair enough. I stil don't find her to that interesting imho

What annoys me about that subplot is that Lucia prety much filed all the requirements of Mia's possible "rival". But they didn't do anything with it and, as I said, It really annoys me to no end.

[Extrasolar]

22 minutes ago, The Malign Knight said:

Eh. Fair enough. I stil don't find her to that interesting imho

What annoys me about that subplot is that Lucia prety much filed all the requirements of Mia's possible "rival". But they didn't do anything with it and, as I said, It really annoys me to no end.

All good. You're entitled to not liking her.

I...never thought of that. I've been playing the Tellius games for a few years now, and I forgot about Lucia wearing primarily white...though she doesn't ride a horse, which I think disqualifies her from being the rival.

[vanguard333]

I hope this will be a great remake that enhances the plot and balances old and new so that the gameplay mechanics unique to Gaiden are brought to their best potential. I fear that, given how quickly this game is coming, it may be that not a lot of effort has been put into updating the game beyond visuals.

I liked Shadow Dragon; I especially liked how it really felt like a remake of a game from the NES era. The problem for me was that the plot could have been improved. The plot was paper-thin, which is actually quite sad, because a lot of the moments of character development could have been fantastic if they had just been given a little more... well more, and quite a few character backstories that I later discovered by research online were really interesting. For example, Medeus seems like a generic dragon bad guy in Shadow Dragon trying to conquer/destroy the continent, but he isn't. He lost his entire people to madness and pride; he was a prince of the Earth Dragons, and the only one who chose to become a manakete. After Naga sealed the mad Earth Dragons away, he was assigned to watch the seal keeping his maddened kin from destroying Archenea. But then he saw humanity; the very people Naga was trying to protect from the bestial Earth Dragons, mistreat his fellow manaketes, he succumbed to bitterness and anger, creating a manakete sanctuary that he quickly turned into an empire. ...That's interesting. But, unfortunately, we saw almost none of his personality, true motivations, backstory, etc., in Shadow Dragon. I hope they don't make this same mistake with the Gaiden plot and characters.

Edited March 7, 2017 by vanguard333

[Jave]

5 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Oh yeah, FE has always had fanservice-y elements, but they were done much more tastefully than they are in Awakening and Fates. Lethe is a catgirl in short shorts, but the game itself never goes out of its way to ogle her the way it does with Camilla (and Lethe's artworks are just as non-sexualized as the male characters' artwork). Fates' Camilla and Charlotte were downright nauseating (for me, at least) in just how much they were objectified. Character designs shamelessly subscribing to "sex sells" is disappointing imo for a lot of reasons.

And arguing that "at the time this was considered bad" definitely doesn't excuse the later games, since...well, it got worse. A lot worse. If anything, it made people realize just how good they had it until Awakening and Fates super-exaggerated it all.

Characters have had revealing outfits since day one, which is definitely something that should be noted and criticized, but they at least had the decency to play it classy for the most part.

I never said that the later games should be excused. My point is that the previous games could be just as guilty of the things the later games did, it's just standards were different back then.

I think Lethe is more akin to Felicia. When the first Fates trailer was revealed and Felicia was shown, I remember several people commenting on how the character was otaku pandering and pure fanservice. Now Felicia is pretty modestly dressed, she just wears a traditional maid outfit, but she's considered fanservice by association. You know, like catgirls.

4 hours ago, Troykv said:

OMG XDDD Why I didn't arrived sooner to the Fire Emblem discussions? This is funny in the hindsight (the future FE Games got even more fanservicey and in more ridiculous ways) and a bit ironic because the side-slits with pantyhose/leggins/tight pants/whatevertheyare and thighhighs exists even since the Kaga's Era and also Silvia/Lene/Laylea, but in her in makes more sense to be fanservice designs.

Some of the 3D models in the Tellius games were pretty ridiculous in that regard. Sometimes I wonder if one of the designers had a leg fetish or something, because the amount of thigh the female sages showed could get quite distracting.

Edited March 7, 2017 by Jave