What does echoes NEED to do to not end up as a shadow dragon 2.0?

[Azz]

5 hours ago, Motendra said:

Wait what now? Even if its the same weapon?

No what I mean is that in the likes of FE5, when dismounted every unit would use swords. So when say a Lance Knight would dismount he/she would not have their lance rank but a sword rank and while mounted, they couldn't use swords. And since in this game all weapon ranks were separate, you would have to try and keep both ranks in check so you aren't using bad weapons in later indoor maps.

This wasn't the case in FE3 since Weapon Level included all weapons but in FE5 it got a bit annoying

[Dinar87]

Looking back on this topic I feel ashamed of myself for being so rude about shadow dragon and its fans...however, I still don't want echoes to be 100% faithful as I want still want playable axe users, the weapon triangle, supports, third tiers, etc... I can respect that some people literally just want gaiden unchanged besides graphics and presentation but this is just my opinion that it needs to change and not necessarily factual. My wish is that IS makes another great fire emblem game again that has the right balance between modernizing itself and staying true to the original game.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Dinar87

[Flee Fleet!]

13 hours ago, unique said:

what's wrong with not having axe units? the game wasn't designed with them in mind so I don't see any reason to add them

New Mystery Emblem added axe users, so tbh, it won't be surprising if they did add axe users. Besides, seeing as how almost every other game (except book 2 of FE3) had axe users and how there have been many good ones (such as the Pugi axe guy from FE5 and Lex from FE4), it's pretty much a staple now in the series....I guess. Yeah I got no other reason.

[Sidereal Wraith]

17 hours ago, VincentASM said:

From the trailer, it's looking like Echoes is off to a fantastic start (great graphics, animated movies, voice acting, top tier character artist, etc.). I think they just need support or base conversations to reel in the long-time or even Awakening/Fates fans.

New Mystery showed us that IS can make a real good remake if they wanted to.

Agreed.

[dap005]

3 hours ago, Ertrick36 said:

What I'm getting at is that you get these characters, you have them fight alongside one another, and they form bonds.  In some cases, they literally save each other's lives.  You directly affect that, and thus you have an actual impact on how they bond.  In many cases, they aren't forming bonds on their own in the story; you are choosing who becomes friends with who.  In other circumstances, you're strengthening their bonds with pre-existing friends or gaining the trust of former enemies.  And in any case as a result, they're more willing and able to help their friends fight, or at least inspire their friends to fight harder.  It is the direct results of your indirect bonds to these characters.

This all being said, I'd like to iterate that I wouldn't be upset if they took out supports in Shadows of Valentia.  I know Gaiden didn't originally have supports, so it's not necessarily like anything is lost if this game in particular doesn't have supports.  Though for reasons stated, I personally think it can only help.  But I won't go in expecting it, either.

2

I think one of the biggest things that struck when playing fire emblem for the first time (Sacred Stones for me) that it had that   "camaraderie, even with unwitting enemies" narrative which directly tied to the gameplay. The interactive part of games and their narrative tend to be separated like oil and water so it was really novel for me at the time. Which is probably the main reason I'd love to see supports in Shadows of Valentia but as someone interested in unusual mechanics and shake-ups I will get the game regardless.

Plus it means we may get future echoes games so fingers-crossed for its success. 

[Sidereal Wraith]

New characters, support conversations, and a fleshed out story.

[Tuvy]

Supports. No child characters, but supports.

[Radetzky120]

Playable axe users

On a serious note, while I'm not exactly clamoring for a support system, some form of characterization for non-main characters would be nice. The Jugdral games do a decent job of characterizing units even without the dating sim-esque support conversation and rank system present in GBA/PoR/modern FE.

[Tolvir]

It needs to take Gaiden, not just recreated it, but add on to it.

Shadow Dragon was in many ways a step back for the series. You went from Tellius which had a lot of different mechanics like ledges, was long, and over all had a lot of things going for it. Then comes Shadow Dragon. Shadow Dragon lacked a lot of different mechanics. IT was essentially just a graphical upgrade (barely) to the game it remade without adding much to it. It was a very empty game.

 

Echoes needs to not do that. IT needs to have a substantial amount of content to it to compete with Fates/Awakening. I have hopes for it based on DLC being all but confirmed, and the things they have shown already.

Dungeons need to be made larger. Not just short little areas to grind. Make them on the level of Final Fantasy/Pokémon dungeons with multiple floors, loot, and maybe even some mini bosses in a few of them.

Town need to be made larger and have more to them. Add a few places to go in each. Don't have to be shops, but at least add things to do in them rather than visit the shrine and the occasional place to trade that came maybe 2-3 times.

Maps need to have variety. I like the idea of castles, towers, and other structures being present on the map. Keep those, but add more variety. Don't let this be a repeat of Gaiden or Awakening with very bland map design.

Add a few more classes. The base 5 work just fine, but it could use some extras. Make third tier options for all classes, including mages. Make branching options for each class. Instead of Bow Knight being the final option for Archer, structure it more like Fates/Awakening. Have Bow Knight be a multi class tier between Mercenary and Archer, and give Archers Marksman as a specific. Essentially give variations and options in the class system. That alone would substantially increase the content of the game, and especially replay value.

Throw in some varying map conditions. Fates was a step in the right  direction with a reintroduction of Defend. Now lets add in a nice large castle like defense map on the level of what Tellius had. Lets add some seize maps, or escape maps. Put some variation on the map types so that it isn't a repeat of what Awakening was. Route, Route, Kill Boss, Route, Route, Route.

Lets really experimenting with the item system here. Gaiden had Rings, Equipment, Weapons, and only one slot. Lets expand this. Increase it to two slots (people have two hands) and lets start really expanding what Equipment, Weapons, and Rings there are. Rename Rings to jewelery first off. Lets throw in Necklaces, Rings, Earrings., and other typical Fantasy RPG jewelery with different effects. Lets throw in equipment. Make that all types of things from your typical healing items like Vulnerary, to shields, armor, and even consumable weapons like some type of bomb. Weapons don't need too many touch ups aside from taking Gaiden and Fates, mixing it together, and balancing it out.

Supports. Or at least character depth. Lets flesh these characters out. Even if there are no supports, lets give a way to interact. This could be achieved by expanding on Towns. For example, lets throw in a Tavern that can be visited, where you can initiate a conversation with your party sitting down and enjoying a drink together. Lets throw in some specific character events. For example, we could implement something like what happens in Mass Effect 3 where certain characters might invite you to do something together. So lets have Cliff invite Alm to go fishing at some spot, or have a drink at the tavern that would allow for the characters to interact, grow, and be expanded upon.

Other than that I cant think of much else.

Edited January 23, 2017 by Tolvir

[Night Zap]

16 hours ago, geozeldadude said:

one question i had for people who have played the original is if the length of the original seems like it should stay the same or if it should be expanded with gaiden chapters (or even better, a brand new second part like mystery of the emblem!). i haven't finished the game yet and the game isn't divided into single map chapters, so it's hard for me to get a feel for if the game is as long as the other games which usually have something like 24+ chapters.

There were quite a lot of battles in each chapter, but many of the filler battles were very short because of the lack of dialogue and the maps often constisting of big plains with some trees or healing spots sprinkled in, where a small formation of enemies is fought. If they flesh out the story a bit, so there's a purpose to every map beyond beating the next group of enemies standing in your way, make the filler maps a bit more compact and challenging despite the low number of enemies, and increase the size of towns and dungeons so there's more exploring to do, the game should be decently long.

Gaidens would mesh well with the overworld gameplay, I think. If they popped up in areas you already passed, it could make for a important strategic descision: "Do I go back and waste time to do this extra stuff, or do I press on?" Since some lines in the trailer indicated that time passes as you travel, there might be a penalty to wasting time by walking back and forth around the map.

[geozeldadude]

i forgot about the time mechanic. that does give a good way of balancing of unlimited grinding vs. maybe getting a ranking for how many days it took you.
 

[Alertcircuit]

To prevent it from being a "sales disaster", all Nintendo has to do is market it well. A timeless strategy RPG. A sidequest in the age when Marth ruled. The world before Awakening.

Then of course, the actual game has to be good. Right now, it seems to be shaping up. As long as they don't do any stupid stuff like they did with Gaiden chapters in SD, it's fine.

[Dinar87]

22 hours ago, Alertcircuit said:

To prevent it from being a "sales disaster", all Nintendo has to do is market it well. A timeless strategy RPG. A sidequest in the age when Marth ruled. The world before Awakening.

Then of course, the actual game has to be good. Right now, it seems to be shaping up. As long as they don't do any stupid stuff like they did with Gaiden chapters in SD, it's fine.

Maybe they won't repeat the exact mistakes (at least what I thought were mistakes) of shadow dragon but if there's no new classes, no expanded story, no supports, etc... then I'm sorry, but the game's probably going to feel extremely outdated for most fans like me. Hopefully IS doesn't be 100% faithful to the original game as that'd be just as bad as shoving fan service and waifus in the game. There needs to be some balance. 

Edited January 24, 2017 by Dinar87

[ChibiToastExplosion]

9 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

Maybe they won't repeat the exact mistakes of shadow dragon but if there's no new classes, no expanded story, no supports, etc... then I'm sorry, but the game's probably going to feel extremely outdated for most fans like me.

Then save your money? I'm sorry if that sounds really rude, but expecting them to cater to any one group is ridiculous. They'll do what they'll do, and it would be okay to not be satisfied by that.

This really isn't directed towards you, but what this game needs to not be the "next SD" is a fan base that isn't completely ungrateful.

This thread irritates me in general, because it's basically "I want to play Gaiden but I don't really because this and this and this needs to change".

Even if there are supports, they have to be limited by nature because the armies are split, and don't meet up until the end. I see base conversations, but that's it.

If there is no WT, then other weapons and classes are for show, especially if Stat caps are kept at 40 for each stat. People really exaggerate these little things and its frustrating. "Well the rest of the series has it!" Unfortunately for a lot of people, Gaiden's calling card is "NOT like the rest of the series".

Sorry for the rant. It's okay if newer players don't like the classic style, but please don't be selfish and ask that style to change, because you are taking something from the people who do like it.

[Dinar87]

35 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Then save your money? I'm sorry if that sounds really rude, but expecting them to cater to any one group is ridiculous. They'll do what they'll do, and it would be okay to not be satisfied by that.

This really isn't directed towards you, but what this game needs to not be the "next SD" is a fan base that isn't completely ungrateful.

This thread irritates me in general, because it's basically "I want to play Gaiden but I don't really because this and this and this needs to change".

Even if there are supports, they have to be limited by nature because the armies are split, and don't meet up until the end. I see base conversations, but that's it.

If there is no WT, then other weapons and classes are for show, especially if Stat caps are kept at 40 for each stat. People really exaggerate these little things and its frustrating. "Well the rest of the series has it!" Unfortunately for a lot of people, Gaiden's calling card is "NOT like the rest of the series".

Sorry for the rant. It's okay if newer players don't like the classic style, but please don't be selfish and ask that style to change, because you are taking something from the people who do like it.

But I never explicitly said anything like "I want to play Gaiden" because I DON'T! I don't want to play an outdated game like that but rather a product where they take the actual good parts of gaiden and make a game about them. Just because Gaiden's schitck is that it's not like the rest of the series is no excuse imo to not have basic fire emblem mechanics like supports that fans know and love. The whole "selfish" argument could be applied to you as well since by wanting and potentially influencing IS to stick closely to what gaiden was, you're potentially denying newer fans like me the opportunity to play a re imagining of gaiden rather than a straight up remake. Is that not selfish as well? Aren't you denying people like me the version of gaiden that we want to play?

Edited January 24, 2017 by Dinar87

[ChibiToastExplosion]

1 minute ago, Dinar87 said:

But I never explicitly said anything like "I want to play Gaiden" because I DON'T! I don't want to play an outdated game like that but rather a product where they take the actual good parts of gaiden and make a game about them. Just because Gaiden's schitck is that it's not like the rest of the series is no excuse imo to not have basic fire emblem mechanics lik supports that fans know and love. The whole "selfish" argument could be applied to you as well since by wanting and potentially influencing IS to stick closely to what gaiden was, you're denying newer fans like me the opportunity to play a re imagining of gaiden rather than a straight up remake. Is that not selfish as well? Aren't you denying people like me the version of gaiden that we want to play?

Sure, if you want to look at it that way.

Expect, you know, you could nut up and expand your tastes. I'm the one who is going to love the game either way unless they Kris it.

[Dinar87]

3 minutes ago, ChibiToastExplosion said:

Sure, if you want to look at it that way.

Expect, you know, you could nut up and expand your tastes. I'm the one who is going to love the game either way unless they Kris it.

You know what? You're right. Gaiden should be for the fans and not the newcomers. I'm going to skip this game since it doesn't seem to be catered towards me and fans like me and that's fine. I was just worried that having a literal nes game will updated graphics and stuff would kill the chances of more remakes compared to others in the series.

In fact, I'm probably not going to come back to this thread for a while now. You guys enjoy gaiden but I'll just sit this one out.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Dinar87

[ChibiToastExplosion]

9 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

You know what? You're right. Gaiden should be for the fans and not the newcomers. I'm going to skip this game since it doesn't seem to be catered towards me and fans like me and that's fine. I was just worried that having a literal nes game will updated graphics and stuff would kill the chances of more remakes compared to others in the series.

In fact, I'm probably not going to come back to this thread for a while now. You guys enjoy gaiden but I'll just sit this one out.

Chill. I said the majority of that wasn't directed at you.

You act like I wouldn't welcome a lot of the updates, I just don't see them as "Necessary". Despite it being a "literal nes game", I like Gaiden a TON more than your tellius babies. Should I suggest those games be different?

Using SD as an insult is what really gets to me, because people hate a great game for stupid reasons.

This attitude is the kind of attitude that scares vets, because if people like you won't give the older games a chance, it means we dont get them anymore while you new guys are still guaranteed FE for the switch and beyond.

Edited January 24, 2017 by ChibiToastExplosion

[Tryhard]

Perhaps you're right in regards to some things, but assuming it isn't going to sell if it doesn't completely modernise itself is a self-fulfilling prophecy. Gaiden isn't going to be alike other Fire Emblem games, even if it does update aspects of it. It's considered the black sheep of the series for a reason, even moreso than FE4. It is evident that FE8, FE13 and FE14 take inspiration from Gaiden (and considering the nods to the game, probably meant they've wanted to do a remake of FE2 for some time... I was just sure they wouldn't.) but even still Gaiden is still far away in terms of mechanics and as a experimental game from those. Don't expect it to be what's it not, and that's my fear is that a lot of people are going to go in not knowing what to expect and being disappointed, because I do expect quite a few Gaiden mechanics to return.

Still, I don't think supports are particularly unlikely. Unfortunately it's a game divided by routes with a relatively small cast of characters (there will be new ones, as we've seen, but how many I'm not sure) so it makes them more awkward. I might honestly prefer base conversations since at least they are always obtainable, but I won't be bothered if there are indeed support conversations.

As for expanded story, temper your expectation to a very simplistic plot from Gaiden, but yes, they've already expanded on it at least a little bit in the trailer, considering how they portray Zofia and Rigel as being far more morally ambiguous then they seemed in the original to my recollection, and arguably even attempted to do it compared to Hoshido and Nohr, which people did have complaints about.

New classes I kind of expect. If only to balance out "third tiers" if we're going that route. Perhaps I'll be wrong in that regard but the fact that Celica didn't get a unique class in Gaiden as a main character of that game... I expect that to change, maybe even with a preferred weapon of her own.

Playable axe users and the weapon triangle is the one I still am unsure about. And if there's no playables axe users, there's probably no weapon triangle. People might gawk at that staple of the Fire Emblem series being dropped for a game, but a game without pair up and a weapon triangle (which is often quite inconsequential to how we play the games really, anyway) sounds rather refreshing, the former because of the last two games kinda pushing pair up hard as a mechanic. People act like it is a given, but given that we've seen very little so far and nothing (yet) to suggest axes are really in the game aside from thieves and bandits in the original, I will believe it when I see it. "Improved" map designs too.

There will be improvements, that I'm sure of. Depends if that ends up being minimalist like Shadow Dragon or not which is yet to be seen. But I'm confident that the game will do at least relatively well if they take a look at the maps design especially. That I would consider its biggest objective problem.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Tryhard

[ChibiToastExplosion]

8 minutes ago, Tryhard said:

Chibi wishes he was this eloquent 

Thank you for putting everything I wanted to say a lot better and a lot nicer than I did.

[goodperson707]

^^Storywise that part of the direct seems to fit pretty well with the serenes translation of the prologue.  And yeah I think i pretty much agree with this. 

Edited January 24, 2017 by goodperson707

[Tryhard]

27 minutes ago, goodperson707 said:

^^Storywise that part of the direct seems to fit pretty well with the serenes translation of the prologue.  And yeah I think i pretty much agree with this. 

Sort of. It does mention how Zofia was corrupt, but it never exactly portrays Rigel as more than cold-hearted, while in the trailer it does say about both the harshness of the Rigel lands and what they believe may have lead them to become a regimented orderly force. It would be nice to see the necessity of their warlike nature be further explored, though I do admit this does have parallels to Nohr, at least it does make an attempt to paint the other side as not as good to be comfortable with. The way it phrases Duma's philosophy and motives (power is everything) is also a little misleading, though this may be a translation issue.

1 hour ago, Dinar87 said:

You know what? You're right. Gaiden should be for the fans and not the newcomers. I'm going to skip this game since it doesn't seem to be catered towards me and fans like me and that's fine. I was just worried that having a literal nes game will updated graphics and stuff would kill the chances of more remakes compared to others in the series.

In fact, I'm probably not going to come back to this thread for a while now. You guys enjoy gaiden but I'll just sit this one out.

I'm sorry to hear this because I really do believe we've seen too little to make judgements for now. Who knows, they may show things that I will absolutely turn me off the game, myself, but I can't say for now. It's worth remembering that Fire Emblem has not been a static series through the games. Consider how different FE4 is to FE5, or any of the other games a few games apart. It is usually not common for the games to stay close to each other for more than a few. I would say that at least consider the game after watching gameplay or such after it comes out, and expect something different. I do want this game to do well, and it does have a lot of importance associated with it, because we may not see further remakes of titles I know more people would want to see over Gaiden if it does not garner interest.

Edited January 24, 2017 by Tryhard

[goodperson707]

^ True, I see your point. But of course interpretations will differ and to me the corruption angle already being there is very important. I also think the gods are pretty central to gaiden and the prologue focuses more on the gods themselves on that front. (And the rest of the game is somewhat difficult to interpret perfectly due to miminal dialogue. And strength of might as a virtue is hard to make work imo  ) Changes to Doma himself seems to be a difference however. 

[AsherCrane]

In all honesty, the trailer we've seen seemed like it was specifically geared toward showing thing that are specifically like Gaiden, down to specifically using all the same classes and such that the original gaiden did. Since it looked like that, I don't think it'd be fair to judge solely on a trailer designed to show similarities. 

 

It's like watching a reboot and thinking it's instantly going to have all the subjective flaws of the original. 

[goodperson707]

Quote

In all honesty, the trailer we've seen seemed like it was specifically geared toward showing thing that are specifically like Gaiden, down to specifically using all the same classes and such that the original gaiden did. Since it looked like that, I don't think it'd be fair to judge solely on a trailer designed to show similarities. 

 

It's like watching a reboot and thinking it's instantly going to have all the subjective flaws of the original. 

I see what your saying but the specific things shown are still likely to be in the final product or be seriously considered to be in it. So we still have stuff to judge, but I do think it'd be good  to stick to the specifics and keep it open to those specifics not showing everything. (I'm open that villagers might have more options or different villagers will get different options,  but I still think it means quite a bit that there are no added clasess shown) 

Edited January 24, 2017 by goodperson707