Do you like Corrin?

[RedRob]

Wasn't there already a thread on this topic before?

Though for the actual topic, what everybody else said. He's basically a Gary Stu, even in Conquest where he fails all the time. That's called a Sympathetic Sue.

[Slyfox]

I do not like Corrin at all, as I've mentioned in the worst character thread. To avoid redundancy, I'll not say the same thing here.

 

Anyway, I also am baffled that people think both genders of Corrin are different. There is even less difference between the two Corrins than there was in Awakening with the two Robins...

And finally, glad to see I'm not the only one who thinks Conquest Corrin was the most tolerable of the three. S/he is still trash in that route as well, though.

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

1 hour ago, RedRob said:

Wasn't there already a thread on this topic before?

Though for the actual topic, what everybody else said. He's basically a Gary Stu, even in Conquest where he fails all the time. That's called a Sympathetic Sue.

The thread you're talking about is probably dead, old, etc. If you feel like you are beating a dead horse you can not write anything, really. Just voting is completely fine.

[Loki Laufeyson]

I dont really care enough to hate or like Corrin, so im indifferent. I dont mind their design at all but their personality is a bit meh mostly due to the narrative's treatment of them. But honestly, i just cant care enough either way. 

[Sunwoo]

I feel like being the self-insert avatar for the players really hurt Corrin's potential as a character. They're not unique in being a lord who can choose the "wrong side" of a war. Heck, Micaiah in Radiant Dawn doesn't have a choice. She will always fight for Daein, unlike Corrin who has three choices. While I'm aware that not everyone likes Micaiah more than Corrin, or even likes her in general, I personally feel that Micaiah portrayed a lord's struggle between the "right" side and "their side" a lot better. And it's because the narrative doesn't need Micaiah to be "right".

Micaiah doesn't care if history sees her as a villain, as long as it keeps her people safe. She doesn't whine about how "the Crimeans and the followers of Sanaki don't understand why I'm doing this, they don't understand Daein will die if we don't fight". Micaiah can be downright brutal in her tactics to win the war, and when she talks about how she's taken so many lives but froze when it was Sothe's life at stake it shows some degree of self awareness. The game doesn't try to portray her as being right, and it lets her do things that are morally questionable without shoving onto us a feeling of, "oh but she's a hero and no one is allowed to criticize her".

Corrin angsts about how they're sacrificing their happiness for the "greater good". They angst about how the Hoshidans don't understand what they're doing. They lead an invasion army into Hoshido, kill Hoshidan soldiers, and passively stand back and watch surrendered Hoshidan soldiers be slaughtered, but they have the nerve to say that they're still on Hoshido's side and don't mean ill will towards them. Corrin manages to defeat entire armies without killing any enemies, except when the story needs certain enemies to die (like with the kitsune, or the brothers' retainers), simply because they're that "pure" and "good". They claim that they want to end the war with as little casualties as possible, but when actual alternatives to ending the war with less casualties pop up (Kotaro, Zola), they claim that it's dishonorable and have no issues killing their own allies. Seriously, why the heck do they need to fight the Nohrians in chapter 18? Xander is crown prince. Shouldn't they stand down, since he outranks Zola? Or do the Nohrian siblings think it's okay to cut them down so they don't tattle on them? The Nohrian royal family SURE love their people, don't they? The game seems to see this as being okay, and that Corrin is right all along, so Hinoka and Sakura don't even get to be mad at Nohr for killing their brothers and their countrymen, and their parents and for stealing one of their priceless treasures (Yato). If the game wasn't busy kissing up to Corrin's ass, it would see these actions as despicable and the actions of a self-centered brat who only cares about how things make them feel.

And even when they're not doing the dumb things they do in Conquest, they're still naive and uninteresting and don't really have meaningful interactions with the people around them.

The concept of playing the "evil path" has already been done with Micaiah. The biggest problem with Conquest was the writing's need to reassure the player that they are always right, which it didn't need to do with Micaiah. But even if Conquest didn't exist, they'd still be an uninteresting character to me. I mean ... I enjoyed Robin in Awakening, but I didn't even really like Robin. I liked the character that I created out of Robin using some of the preexisting background on Robin, but I didn't actually like them as the base character. Corrin had the unfortunate reality of existing as a character in a premise that was actually interesting, and sucking all the interesting out of it, which drew more of my ire.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Sunwoo

[Nanima]

I can see why some people may enjoy Conquest!Corrin more with the way they actually messes up big there. But to me, the way the game then refuses to aknowledge this (or actually praises him for it since they are such a selfless martyr for "sacrificing their happiness"), and ultimately gives Corrin the exact same rewards as in Birthright, (and Birthright at least allows Leo to hold some minor misgivings when all is said and done) feels 100 times more obnoxious than the cardboard saint of Birthright and Rev.

All three routes are filled with Corrin's shitty writing, but Conquest really pushes your face into it, where nothing can make you forget about it. (except maybe the gameplay)

[BlueBloodEmblazer]

 I think that a lot of male Corrin's designs look silly, but I found one that I really like. Corrin is a very fun unit in gameplay, and every avatar after them should be at least similar to them.

Corrin actually acts differently depending on supports and story. In support conversations he's actually decent, but he's really bad in the story. He's actually not too bad in BR, but he's so bad in Rev's story. In CQ he's kind of a hypocrite, and I hate shameless hypocrites.

Edited January 25, 2017 by BlueBloodEmblazer

[Dinar87]

Not to be contrarian but I actually liked corrin, and the story of conquest itself, a lot. I was expecting the worst from what I'd heard online and ended up with something much better than expected. I don't know why people weren't able to enjoy the story but I guess people just have different opinions to me.

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

19 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

Not to be contrarian but I actually liked corrin, and the story of conquest itself, a lot. I was expecting the worst from what I'd heard online and ended up with something much better than expected. I don't know why people weren't able to enjoy the story but I guess people just have different opinions to me.

Because some people think that "well written <==> enjoyable" (mathematically speaking). They're free to think that they want, but they want to impose it to others. There was also a lot of controversy about character design, fan-service and localization, so it didn't help people to get into it either. The game is also different from what has been made until now, and like every newest game, it gets a lot of hate from people who think it's killing the series, so they start a witch hunt for every flaw they could find to justify the fact that it's absolutely bad.

I'm not too difficult with stories, as long as there's emotions and intensity (basically the OST makes a big difference, and it was amazing in Fates), I don't really care as long as it's not too cliché. I'm not blind to its flaws, but it's still rather good compared to nowadays industry standards.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Brand_Of_The_Exalt

[Dinar87]

3 minutes ago, Brand_Of_The_Exalt said:

Because some people think that "well written <==> enjoyable" (mathematically speaking). They're free to think that they want, but they want to impose it to others. There was also a lot of controversy about character design and localization, so it didn't help people to get into it either. The game is also different from what has been made until now, and like every newest game, it gets a lot of hate from people who think it's killing the series, so they start a witch hunt for every flaw they could find to justify the fact that it's absolutely bad.

I'm not too difficult with stories, as long as there's emotions and intensity (basically the OST makes a big difference, and it was amazing in Fates), I don't really care as long as it's not too cliché. I'm not blind to its flaws, but it's still rather good compared to nowadays industry standards.

Yeah I was expecting the worst thing ever when I was playing conquest because of all the terrible things I'd heard about conquest's story but actually it ended up pretty good! And I'll try not to impose me liking conquest's story on others too. I wonder how people will look back on fates. Will they cherish the amazing ost or the over the top battle animations? Will they get hung up on the sexual fan service like I did before I played it?

Edited January 25, 2017 by Dinar87

[Thane]

55 minutes ago, Dinar87 said:

 I don't know why people weren't able to enjoy the story but I guess people just have different opinions to me.

Try reading any of the many, many threads and posts going into exact details. Saying things like "I don't understand how people can think differently" makes you sound willfully ignorant.

If you want, I can send you an extensive PM detailing a few of the more common complaints.

[Refa]

Nope.  I've noticed that a lot of people are indifferent to Corrin, and that's because their personality is so bland (presumably in order to appeal to everyone, although by doing so it ends up appealing to noone HEH) that it doesn't force the player to engage with or think about it on any meaningful level.  A good character would force people to do just that (of course, there's more to a good character than just that but that's not the point I'm trying to make here) and form an opinion on Corrin.  The fact that so many people haven't done that despite Corrin having a ridiculous amount of dialogue and screen time goes to show just how poorly written they are.  People mention about how Corrin is actually a horrible person, but that is honestly giving the writing a lot more credit than it deserves; they're just an incredibly poorly written one.

PS Corrin is dumb gameplay wise as well.  Every avatar so far has been broken because you can min max them and it's fucking stupid.  I hate it.

PPS Corrin is also a dumb unfitting name.  Why would a fantasy Japanese child have an Italian name?  Kamui was way cooler.

[Sunwoo]

2 hours ago, Dinar87 said:

Not to be contrarian but I actually liked corrin, and the story of conquest itself, a lot. I was expecting the worst from what I'd heard online and ended up with something much better than expected. I don't know why people weren't able to enjoy the story but I guess people just have different opinions to me.

Nobody cares if you don't understand, because nobody cares about your approval. If you like Conquest, that's fine. But people have already stated here and in many other threads why they didn't like it. If you still disagree with their reasons, good for you. But unless you just ignored everything people have said here and elsewhere, I highly doubt you have no idea why people dislike Corrin.

2 hours ago, Brand_Of_The_Exalt said:

Because some people think that "well written <==> enjoyable" (mathematically speaking). They're free to think that they want, but they want to impose it to others. 

More like "a character who comes off as a whiny, selfish Karma Houdini who gets no comeuppance at the end to me is not a protagonist whose story I am not willing to stick around to listen". I enjoy things that aren't well written. But I don't like selfish brat characters, which is what Corrin comes off to me as. Also, you do realize that there are just as many people who "impose" on others that Conquest is the best and Hoshido are the real villains and that the Hoshidans deserved to get wiped out, or that the Nohrian siblings' lives are somehow worth more than the Hoshidans's? Neither sides are innocent. Also, I don't see anyone in this thread who was "imposing" their opinions on other people. Disagreeing with other people's opinions and letting them know why they disagree with that opinion isn't imposing.

Edited January 25, 2017 by Sunwoo

[NekoKnight]

14 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

I feel like being the self-insert avatar for the players really hurt Corrin's potential as a character. They're not unique in being a lord who can choose the "wrong side" of a war. Heck, Micaiah in Radiant Dawn doesn't have a choice. She will always fight for Daein, unlike Corrin who has three choices. While I'm aware that not everyone likes Micaiah more than Corrin, or even likes her in general, I personally feel that Micaiah portrayed a lord's struggle between the "right" side and "their side" a lot better. And it's because the narrative doesn't need Micaiah to be "right".

The best thing about the writing for Micaiah is that the game doesn't feel the need to TELL you she is right or wrong. We know she has good intentions but it's up to the player to decide if her actions were appropriate (and we have multiple perspectives to comment on this). Fates writing constantly beats you over the head with how righteous our hero is, to the point that people forgive him for his villainy, contrary to all common sense. I'd be more okay with the protagonist being a villain if the plot acknowledged this. To quote Blackadder "It's the lying I find so hurtful."

Personally, I don't think player worship is a direct consequence of characters being a self-insert, that's just how IS has chosen to write them.

4 hours ago, Thane said:

Try reading any of the many, many threads and posts going into exact details. Saying things like "I don't understand how people can think differently" makes you sound willfully ignorant.

How could people not know why Fates writing is shit? We only talk about it every thread.

[makuroh]

I hated Corrin more than I disliked The Wonder Twins in SS, I didn't thought that was possible.

Edited January 26, 2017 by UdoGudo

[RedRob]

3 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

How could people not know why Fates writing is shit? We only talk about it every thread.

Wasn't that Serene's Law or something? I remember it being in Thane's signature.

[Troykv]

18 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

I feel like being the self-insert avatar for the players really hurt Corrin's potential as a character. They're not unique in being a lord who can choose the "wrong side" of a war. Heck, Micaiah in Radiant Dawn doesn't have a choice. She will always fight for Daein, unlike Corrin who has three choices. While I'm aware that not everyone likes Micaiah more than Corrin, or even likes her in general, I personally feel that Micaiah portrayed a lord's struggle between the "right" side and "their side" a lot better. And it's because the narrative doesn't need Micaiah to be "right".

Micaiah doesn't care if history sees her as a villain, as long as it keeps her people safe. She doesn't whine about how "the Crimeans and the followers of Sanaki don't understand why I'm doing this, they don't understand Daein will die if we don't fight". Micaiah can be downright brutal in her tactics to win the war, and when she talks about how she's taken so many lives but froze when it was Sothe's life at stake it shows some degree of self awareness. The game doesn't try to portray her as being right, and it lets her do things that are morally questionable without shoving onto us a feeling of, "oh but she's a hero and no one is allowed to criticize her".

Corrin angsts about how they're sacrificing their happiness for the "greater good". They angst about how the Hoshidans don't understand what they're doing. They lead an invasion army into Hoshido, kill Hoshidan soldiers, and passively stand back and watch surrendered Hoshidan soldiers be slaughtered, but they have the nerve to say that they're still on Hoshido's side and don't mean ill will towards them. Corrin manages to defeat entire armies without killing any enemies, except when the story needs certain enemies to die (like with the kitsune, or the brothers' retainers), simply because they're that "pure" and "good". They claim that they want to end the war with as little casualties as possible, but when actual alternatives to ending the war with less casualties pop up (Kotaro, Zola), they claim that it's dishonorable and have no issues killing their own allies. Seriously, why the heck do they need to fight the Nohrians in chapter 18? Xander is crown prince. Shouldn't they stand down, since he outranks Zola? Or do the Nohrian siblings think it's okay to cut them down so they don't tattle on them? The Nohrian royal family SURE love their people, don't they? The game seems to see this as being okay, and that Corrin is right all along, so Hinoka and Sakura don't even get to be mad at Nohr for killing their brothers and their countrymen, and their parents and for stealing one of their priceless treasures (Yato). If the game wasn't busy kissing up to Corrin's ass, it would see these actions as despicable and the actions of a self-centered brat who only cares about how things make them feel.

And even when they're not doing the dumb things they do in Conquest, they're still naive and uninteresting and don't really have meaningful interactions with the people around them.

The concept of playing the "evil path" has already been done with Micaiah. The biggest problem with Conquest was the writing's need to reassure the player that they are always right, which it didn't need to do with Micaiah. But even if Conquest didn't exist, they'd still be an uninteresting character to me. I mean ... I enjoyed Robin in Awakening, but I didn't even really like Robin. I liked the character that I created out of Robin using some of the preexisting background on Robin, but I didn't actually like them as the base character. Corrin had the unfortunate reality of existing as a character in a premise that was actually interesting, and sucking all the interesting out of it, which drew more of my ire.

Micaiah did everything that Corrin does better...

And there are still people that call her "Mary Sue"

About the question itself....

Nah, I only Fem!Corrin's design :P

[NekoKnight]

1 hour ago, RedRob said:

Wasn't that Serene's Law or something? I remember it being in Thane's signature.

Our most hallowed of laws. Hopefully we'll be able to abandon it after FE15 come out.

Edited January 26, 2017 by NekoKnight

[MeddlingMage]

Corrin is okay.  I rather use the female Corrin a lot more.  I only really use the Male one when I marry either Rhajat or Selena.   I may try a run soon when I marry Ophelia.   Male Corrin is extremely boring.

[Nanima]

1 hour ago, MeddlingMage said:

Corrin is okay.  I rather use the female Corrin a lot more.  I only really use the Male one when I marry either Rhajat or Selena.   I may try a run soon when I marry Ophelia.   Male Corrin is extremely boring.

The Corrins are the exact same character, with variations being few and far between and so small I wouldn't even count them. It's interesting to see different gender standards at work though.

[twistedxgrace]

2 hours ago, MeddlingMage said:

Corrin is okay.  I rather use the female Corrin a lot more.  I only really use the Male one when I marry either Rhajat or Selena.   I may try a run soon when I marry Ophelia.   Male Corrin is extremely boring.

As a female myself, one of the things I really like about female Corrin is that she is the one can have two kids marrying almost anyone instead of simply Chrom like in Awakening. However, I quite enjoy using a male avatar as well because I like marrying my favorite girls and having one precious daughter with them (I admittedly prefer female Kana over male) =w= That being said, though, if we're talking design here, all of female Corrin's customization options are so much more good-looking than the male's; not even default male Corrin is that attractive to me unlike male Robin. It's for both of these reasons that I think that female Corrin is miles more popular, despite both versions having literally the same personality.

I don't have much else to say on Corrin that others haven't said. I love having a dragon lord that can get married, but Corrin as a character (if you can even call them that) just doesn't work for me. They have such little personality on their own the fact that most of the cast worships them is mind-boggling, and the hints of character they do show I tend to dislike, which makes them fail hard as a self-insert for me. 

 

[Augestein]

Quote

I know the Robins, especially the female Robin, had the same problem as well. But for some reason, it feels like it was taken to an even greater extreme with the Corrins and it's actually got to a point where I'm complaining on public forums to it. Usually, I just keep my complaints about fan work to myself, or to friends who don't mind to hear it.

I only like Female Robin more because she's a bit of a grouch, and it's a bit more easily related for me as a person, and since it's supposed to be me, it's a little satisfying. Plus, it's nice to see a character that can literally just get irritated like that. But I wouldn't put Male Robin as much worse than her. 

 

Corrins are the same for me because I literally don't see any difference in them between most of the supports. Some like Reina change, but not enough to really matter. I will say that I find a lot of Corrin's hairstyles kinda weird and stupid looks as male though. Robin didn't have that problem. 

 

Quote

I can see why some people may enjoy Conquest!Corrin more with the way they actually messes up big there. But to me, the way the game then refuses to aknowledge this (or actually praises him for it since they are such a selfless martyr for "sacrificing their happiness"), and ultimately gives Corrin the exact same rewards as in Birthright, (and Birthright at least allows Leo to hold some minor misgivings when all is said and done) feels 100 times more obnoxious than the cardboard saint of Birthright and Rev.

All three routes are filled with Corrin's shitty writing, but Conquest really pushes your face into it, where nothing can make you forget about it. (except maybe the gameplay)

 

This is some of the reason I prefer Conquest!Corrin over the others. Things actually don't go very well for him/her. And I wouldn't even say the game refuses to acknowledge it. The only people that really praise him are people that are from Nohr, and there are enough characters like Iago to say how much Corrin stinks. Or random generics , or Garon (possessed or not, he's still not satisfied with Corrin until Corrin starts acting like he's evil too). Hinoka and Sakura alive at the end feels much more sour than Camilla and Leo being alive, because at least Camilla and Leo seem more like they want to talk to you than Hinoka and Sakura. Or at least that's the impression I got with the "it is what is is." She's just done talking with Corrin and doesn't really want to relinquish her feelings on the matter to him/her. 

I felt that Rev and Birthright are far worse. Rev has pacing issues because Corrin doesn't have enough party members in the beginning so the vast majority of the game is "get party members" with seemingly random events happening along the way until they get to Valla, in which there are no real people to convey any real sense of what Valla IS exactly, and the only person that's alive is questionably used. Birthright would be good if it actually had anything happen. As it stands, it spends a lot of time with nothing happening but is needlessly wordy about it. It's like if Shadow Dragon went from having about 20 or so lines before each chapter to like.. 90. It's tiresome to read and with each chapter you don't actually really learn anything or do much of note. Birthright doesn't just suffer from pacing issues, it suffers from essentially making "Corrin walks to the Nohrian capital and defeats Garon" into 21 chapters with every villain essentially being one note, and no one really does anything along the way that develops them as a character. Except maybe Leo. 

Edited January 26, 2017 by Augestein

[Nanima]

3 hours ago, Augestein said:

This is some of the reason I prefer Conquest!Corrin over the others. Things actually don't go very well for him/her. And I wouldn't even say the game refuses to acknowledge it. The only people that really praise him are people that are from Nohr, and there are enough characters like Iago to say how much Corrin stinks. Or random generics , or Garon (possessed or not, he's still not satisfied with Corrin until Corrin starts acting like he's evil too). Hinoka and Sakura alive at the end feels much more sour than Camilla and Leo being alive, because at least Camilla and Leo seem more like they want to talk to you than Hinoka and Sakura. Or at least that's the impression I got with the "it is what is is." She's just done talking with Corrin and doesn't really want to relinquish her feelings on the matter to him/her. 

How does card carrying villains like Iago and possessed!Garon talking shit about Corrin count as actual narrative criticism? They are awful, evil people whose opinion isn't meant to be taken seriously by the player. The very fact that the only people who ever criticise Corrin's actions are either laughably evil, random generics whose existence is barely aknowledged, or change their mind and apologize by the end (Takumi) is a sign of just how badly this game coddles Corrin. Clearly these people were either unreasonable or misinformed, and Corrin is the "true messiah" to end them all. 

I also don't see how Hinoka or Sakura are any more sour than Leo or Camilla. Both sides express that while they are still not entirely fine after what happened, they do not blame Corrin for it and really love them still. I did not see how Hinoka seemed sour towards Corrin at all and would really like it if you explained what exactly gave you the idea? She only seemed to have some misgivings towards Nohr, but was quite adamant on not faulting Corrin for any of it. Which is, you know, kind of absurd when they and their stupid plan were the cause of Hoshido getting razed. "Seeming kind of sour" would be a very benign reaction to that even if it was the case.

But don't take my word for it, here are the exact lines she says to Corrin:

Hinoka: No thanks required, Avatar. Our kingdoms signed a permanent peace treaty, so we can visit whenever we want. Of course I’d be here for such a big event. I’ll come running whenever you need me.

Hinoka: Avatar… No, it’s fine. It is what it is. To be honest, I still battle with feelings of hatred toward the Nohrian army. The way they violated our kingdom for so many years… I won’t soon forget it. But in time, I know even those wounds will heal. I trust you and Xander to prevent such things from ever happening again. In my heart, I know Ryoma and Takumi don’t hold any grudges either.

Hinoka: Avatar… When tensions finally subside in Hoshido… Well, I want you to feel free to return to the castle anytime you like. Ryoma and Takumi may not be there anymore…but we are. I want you to feel at home there so we can all spend time together as siblings.

How does this sound sour and embittered towards Corrin in any way? How does this sound like she wants to end the conversation as quickly as possible? If you think her last line about getting the pegasi counts as that, then the same could be said for Camilla and Leon in Birthright. I just fail to see any indiciation of her thinking ill of Corrin for the shit they pulled. Even if her last line was meant to count in that way (which I really really doubt it was, considering.. well everything else she said) it would be way too little to make up for all the kiss assing that happened before.

 

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

9 hours ago, Nanima² said:

The Corrins are the exact same character, with variations being few and far between and so small I wouldn't even count them. It's interesting to see different gender standards at work though.

Maybe they meant that male Corrin's design is extremely boring. Female Corrin's design won, in general. Aside from Niles yaoi fangirls and waifufriends I don't see much love for him, while Female Corrin gets loads and loads of fanart, and from a lot of sides of the fandom: from self insert people, otome fans, hentai artists, etc.

It shows how, in the end, design can be crucial in liking a character. A lot of times people will like one just for the design alone. Do you think Etika and the fans from Smash love Corrin's compelling personality?

 

Also in general the milquetoast kind gentle pacifist personality clicks more on a female character than on a male one, as much as this stinks. No wonder yaoi fangirls are the main fans of male Corrin, since emotional boys are so loved in the genre, and I wouldn't be surprised if some guys generally found him too much of a wuss for them to like him. Characters like Hector and Ike, ruthless and with few forgiveness, are much more enjoyed by them.

I'm not talking about everyone now though, just making assumptions from having observed the fandom.

[Loki Laufeyson]

15 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Our most hallowed of laws. Hopefully we'll be able to abandon it after FE15 come out.

With any luck, it will be abandoned long before that. Theres a reason many people grew really indifferent or just plain uncaring about Fates' story and Corrin. Its too exhausting to do the song and dance in discussion when we've talked about it so much.