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Do you like Corrin?


CrimeanRoyalKnight
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Do you like Corrin?  

221 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like Corrin?

    • Yes.
      45
    • No.
      117
    • I'm indifferent.
      59


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I really like female Corrin design (great fe cipher artwork) and in the gameplay it's no so bad, but the game its so avatar-centric that some characters exists to support him (all his retainers personal skills, Azura to guide them through the plot and the siblings to be their family)  and thanks to that we are not able to know the name of the continent we try to bring peace.

 So... let's hope that Echoes is a game amazing enough to help us leave this debate behind or at least bring us a new one. 

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I personally really like wimpy/emotional characters, full of self-doubt. Unfortunately, it really shows you how much Intelligent Systems dropped the ball, since Corrin is my most disliked character in Fates.

At the same time, it's probably why I prefer Conquest Corrin over the other two Corrins, probably because the others barely care about collateral damage. Conquest is the route where almost all major and minor characters, including enemies, make really, really dumb decisions, but at least it's the only route where Corrin approaches anything resembling a three-dimensional character, no matter how controversial. I'll take a failure over one that's boring. At least I get to feel emotion, whether it's love or hatred. What's the point of having a story if it's not there to make you feel anything?

Maybe slightly off topic, but it doesn't help matters that the Nohrian siblings manage to be far more interesting than the Hoshidan siblings in Conquest and Birthright. The only time the Hoshidan siblings are more interesting is in Revelation, and only just.

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16 hours ago, Nanima² said:

I also don't see how Hinoka or Sakura are any more sour than Leo or Camilla. Both sides express that while they are still not entirely fine after what happened, they do not blame Corrin for it and really love them still. I did not see how Hinoka seemed sour towards Corrin at all and would really like it if you explained what exactly gave you the idea? She only seemed to have some misgivings towards Nohr, but was quite adamant on not faulting Corrin for any of it. Which is, you know, kind of absurd when they and their stupid plan were the cause of Hoshido getting razed. "Seeming kind of sour" would be a very benign reaction to that even if it was the case.

Besides "Hoshido is the obvious moral side" I feel like Leo and Camilla have a lot greater cause to be forgiving than Hinoka or Sakura. In Conquest, Kamui enables the invasion and is directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of Mikoto, Takumi and Ryoma. Kamui's return to Hoshido brought them nothing but woe and the only consolation the Hoshidans get is that Garon is dead. In Birthright, you basically make a bee-line for the capital and kill the evil Nohrian leadership. Elise is killed by Xander and Xander is... also killed by Xander (his stubborn loyalty). That sure makes a lot more sense for "We're hurt but we know you had good intentions" than "I'm sure Takumi and Ryoma don't mind that you killed them."

11 hours ago, Loki Laufeyson said:

With any luck, it will be abandoned long before that. Theres a reason many people grew really indifferent or just plain uncaring about Fates' story and Corrin. Its too exhausting to do the song and dance in discussion when we've talked about it so much.

Not much time before Echoes, you needn't worry.

I joke about Serenes' Law but I haven't actually seen it happen that much of late (that is to say, thread derails caused by Fates story discussion). I don't think it's anyone's business to say people can't talk about what they want to in relevant threads.

Edited by NekoKnight
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How does card carrying villains like Iago and possessed!Garon talking shit about Corrin count as actual narrative criticism? They are awful, evil people whose opinion isn't meant to be taken seriously by the player. The very fact that the only people who ever criticise Corrin's actions are either laughably evil, random generics whose existence is barely aknowledged, or change their mind and apologize by the end (Takumi) is a sign of just how badly this game coddles Corrin.Clearly these people were either unreasonable or misinformed, and Corrin is the "true messiah" to end them all. 

Because like them or not, they are still characters in the narrative. It still counts. Takumi doesn't necessarily change his mind, he's just lamenting over what  could have been, and in death is wishing that he and Corrin wouldn't have been enemies. That's not apologizing to Corrin because he is unreasonable and Corrin wasn't. He's apologizing for being so cold when they first met. Which is fair. Corrin even apologizes as well. Takumi says "it's alright" in the end, because he's dead. Clearly what Takumi should do is tell Corrin he's a scumbag, NOT hand over the Fujin Yumi so he can have the best chance of having his body freed, and simply stormed off from Corrin. Like I get that the story has problems, but ignoring what was attempted but botched is not the same thing as "it didn't happen." 

 

Quote

I also don't see how Hinoka or Sakura are any more sour than Leo or Camilla. Both sides express that while they are still not entirely fine after what happened, they do not blame Corrin for it and really love them still. I did not see how Hinoka seemed sour towards Corrin at all and would really like it if you explained what exactly gave you the idea? She only seemed to have some misgivings towards Nohr, but was quite adamant on not faulting Corrin for any of it. Which is, you know, kind of absurd when they and their stupid plan were the cause of Hoshido getting razed. "Seeming kind of sour" would be a very benign reaction to that even if it was the case.

 

You don't see it, because that's not what I said. I said "them being alive feels more sour than Camilla and Leo." Which it does. Xander was the one that killed Elise, and Xander got himself killed because he kept attacking. Corrin has to face Hinoka again after promising to save Ryoma and failing, and Takumi is Takumi for this, and the last conversation you have with him, Corrin basically apologizes for sucking. I'm not going to even respond to the rest because you went off on a tangent that really had nothing to do with what I initially said. 

I'm starting to agree with Dinar and Brand on this one. The story isn't very good, but it's not the super monstrosity that tons of people hyped it up to be. I was expecting like Sands of Destruction levels of bad. 

Edited by Augestein
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9 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

Besides "Hoshido is the obvious moral side" I feel like Leo and Camilla have a lot greater cause to be forgiving than Hinoka or Sakura. In birthright, Kamui enables the invasion and is directly or indirectly responsible for the deaths of Mikoto, Takumi and Ryoma. Kamui's return to Hoshido brought them nothing but woe and the only consolation the Hoshidans get is that Garon is dead. In Conquest, you basically make a bee-line for the capital and kill the evil Nohrian leadership. Elise is killed by Xander and Xander is... also killed by Xander (his stubborn loyalty). That sure makes a lot more sense for "We're hurt but we know you had good intentions" than "I'm sure Takumi and Ryoma don't mind that you killed them."

I think you mixed up Birthright and Conquest...Birthright is Hoshido.

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3 minutes ago, ARGHETH said:

I think you mixed up Birthright and Conquest...Birthright is Hoshido.

Well spotted, I must have had fighting in Hoshido = Birthright, fighting in Nohr = Conquest stuck in my mind. 

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18 hours ago, Augestein said:

Because like them or not, they are still characters in the narrative. It still counts. Takumi doesn't necessarily change his mind, he's just lamenting over what  could have been, and in death is wishing that he and Corrin wouldn't have been enemies. That's not apologizing to Corrin because he is unreasonable and Corrin wasn't. He's apologizing for being so cold when they first met. Which is fair. Corrin even apologizes as well. Takumi says "it's alright" in the end, because he's dead. Clearly what Takumi should do is tell Corrin he's a scumbag, NOT hand over the Fujin Yumi so he can have the best chance of having his body freed, and simply stormed off from Corrin. Like I get that the story has problems, but ignoring what was attempted but botched is not the same thing as "it didn't happen." 

 

You don't see it, because that's not what I said. I said "them being alive feels more sour than Camilla and Leo." Which it does. Xander was the one that killed Elise, and Xander got himself killed because he kept attacking. Corrin has to face Hinoka again after promising to save Ryoma and failing, and Takumi is Takumi for this, and the last conversation you have with him, Corrin basically apologizes for sucking. I'm not going to even respond to the rest because you went off on a tangent that really had nothing to do with what I initially said. 

I'm starting to agree with Dinar and Brand on this one. The story isn't very good, but it's not the super monstrosity that tons of people hyped it up to be. I was expecting like Sands of Destruction levels of bad. 

Okay 1) A villain like Iago or Garon (you know the manical, zero sympathetic points cackling villain that they are) saying Corrin is awful holds no real water. In fact, their entire shittalking of Corrin is meant to accentuate just how evil and wrong they are. If you are writing a story and want to show some grey layers, as in have actual characters deliver valid criticism of the hero, who would you choose? Someone the audience accepts as a reasonable, reliable and aware of the story. It could be a friend of the hero, a neutral party, hell maybe a very layered villain who has his wits about him. Point is, the audience has to accept this person's opinions as a valid viewpoint. So, when intending the criticism to be taken seriously, choosing someone who spends literally all his screen time cackling and scheming to make the hero cry, while dreaming of all the puppies they have kicked that day, is a very very poor decision and bad writing. No one takes what Iago or Gooron say seriously. No one goes "hey what these guys have just said are valid points, it has made me rethink my views on Corrin as a hero.". They either laugh it off or have already come to that conclusion on their own. I highly doubt the writers were thinking that they could use Iago or Gooron to throw valid shade on Corrin's actions. In fact it's the opposite. By having Iago and Gooron be the ones to deliver criticism it completely loses all sense of credibility. So yes, it does in fact matter what characters deliver the criticism.

As for Takumi, sure that's certainly how the individual scene is meant to be taken as. But the framing of it leaves a very different impression to me. Let's continue taking this from a Doylist perspective because we are talking about the writing here.

That leaves out the question of "What else could he have done?" because well... the writers didn't have to engineer the situation in such a way that he had no other choice but to forgive Corrin.

This scene for Takumi comes after the plot has done everything to slap him off the high horse they put him on in the beginning of the game. It has done everything to show how wrong he was in that situation. His judgement that day got himself posessed and killed, his retainers killed and likely his country invaded (if we are talking about the players who literally went with Nohr just because of him). He is has gotten to the lowest of the low. Meanwhile Corrin has just seen all his plans succeed and everything work out even if you count all the "sacrifices" (who didn't want or need to be sacrifices) along the way. The plot frames Corrin as standing on the precipice of triumph, the only salt in the soup are his dead family members and unresolved tension with Takumi. So the plot then goes out of it's way to have him get his cake and eat it too. He gets a really nice scene where everyone tells him how much they love him and support him, Takumi absolves him from all guilt and admits all of his mistakes. etc. What more could Corrin wish for? 

I wouldn't criticise the scene on it's own too much, since Birthright has pretty much the exact same thing happen. But what does leave a more bitter taste that the only non-laughably-evil, non-ignorant character who criticised Corrin gets set up and used for something like that. This could have been lessened if we had, say Kaze eventually turn on Corrin for their actions in Hoshido and leave, while taking care to show that such a decision is perfectly valid regardless of how Corrin feels about it. We would have seen a character, who we accept as reasonable, express criticism and isn't punished for it or forced to apologize. Wouldn't that have taken the wind out of my sails?  

 2) Uh well what you did say was:

"Hinoka and Sakura alive at the end feels much more sour than Camilla and Leo being alive, because at least Camilla and Leo seem more like they want to talk to you than Hinoka and Sakura. Or at least that's the impression I got with the "it is what is is." She's just done talking with Corrin and doesn't really want to relinquish her feelings on the matter to him/her."

Which refers directly to their conversation, not them meeting at all. At least that's how I took it which would explain my "tangent". I explained why what Hinoka said didn't seem to me like that.  

I have no idea if you will read everything here. Feel free to enjoy Conuest for what it is that is your personal choice. I just find it worth to discuss opinions in this thread and also write when and why I disagree on them. Perhaps not as volatile as I was, so I am sorry about that. i hope this post was a little more helpful to the discussion, if you are still interested in having one.

 

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I agree with many opinions previously said, with Corrin's bad writing and naivety. Another thing I didn't like was the pressure all three routes had of liking Corrin, for no real reason. Other than Garon, Hans, and Iago, everyone liked Corrin as soon as the met him. If they disliked him, there would always be an excuse for the to come around. Not good excuses either; most of them were the person who disliked them compromising because someone they were closed to liked them. There was no gray zone. Initially, I even felt I had to like them. The only benefit of them is the possibility of Intelligent Systems learning from their mistake and not making a main character a Mary/Gary Sue again.

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Okay 1) A villain like Iago or Garon (you know the manical, zero sympathetic points cackling villain that they are) saying Corrin is awful holds no real water. In fact, their entire shittalking of Corrin is meant to accentuate just how evil and wrong they are. If you are writing a story and want to show some grey layers, as in have actual characters deliver valid criticism of the hero, who would you choose? Someone the audience accepts as a reasonable, reliable and aware of the story. It could be a friend of the hero, a neutral party, hell maybe a very layered villain who has his wits about him. Point is, the audience has to accept this person's opinions as a valid viewpoint. So, when intending the criticism to be taken seriously, choosing someone who spends literally all his screen time cackling and scheming to make the hero cry, while dreaming of all the puppies they have kicked that day, is a very very poor decision and bad writing. No one takes what Iago or Gooron say seriously. No one goes "hey what these guys have just said are valid points, it has made me rethink my views on Corrin as a hero.". They either laugh it off or have already come to that conclusion on their own. I highly doubt the writers were thinking that they could use Iago or Gooron to throw valid shade on Corrin's actions. In fact it's the opposite. By having Iago and Gooron be the ones to deliver criticism it completely loses all sense of credibility. So yes, it does in fact matter what characters deliver the criticism.

 

And I ask this, how do you know that? Were you there when the writer wrote the story? Did he personally tell you this? Garon isn't reasonable, no, but the generics, Iago, Takumi, Ryoma... These people are reasonable enough. Some of them like Iago might be static characters, but it still counts as actual acknowledgement. The same way that Shinon in PoR has criticism towards Ike, and it's not wrong at all but never acknowledged by anyone or anything else... Like in PoR, even the villains praise Ike. Like Ashnard wants nothing to do with Elincia and is more concerned with Ike... A character he's never met.  In Conquest it is as seen by things not going perfectly right because of Corrin's decisions. It's mangled, but it's a hell of a lot better than say... What I just mentioned about PoR. Whether it was intentional or not, we can only guess, but it doesn't change the fact that there are people and saying it's never acknowledged is false

. Heck, even Azura's supports with Corrin change to acknowledge the story of Conquest as well. Supports may not be canon or something you have to view, but there is clear effort put into the validity of Corrin's decisions sprinkled throughout the story. 

 

3 hours ago, Nanima² said:

That leaves out the question of "What else could he have done?" because well... the writers didn't have to engineer the situation in such a way that he had no other choice but to forgive Corrin.

This scene for Takumi comes after the plot has done everything to slap him off the high horse they put him on in the beginning of the game. It has done everything to show how wrong he was in that situation. His judgement that day got himself posessed and killed, his retainers killed and likely his country invaded (if we are talking about the players who literally went with Nohr just because of him). He is has gotten to the lowest of the low. Meanwhile Corrin has just seen all his plans succeed and everything work out even if you count all the "sacrifices" (who didn't want or need to be sacrifices) along the way. The plot frames Corrin as standing on the precipice of triumph, the only salt in the soup are his dead family members and unresolved tension with Takumi. So the plot then goes out of it's way to have him get his cake and eat it too. He gets a really nice scene where everyone tells him how much they love him and support him, Takumi absolves him from all guilt and admits all of his mistakes. etc. What more could Corrin wish for? 

I wouldn't criticise the scene on it's own too much, since Birthright has pretty much the exact same thing happen. But what does leave a more bitter taste that the only non-laughably-evil, non-ignorant character who criticised Corrin gets set up and used for something like that. This could have been lessened if we had, say Kaze eventually turn on Corrin for their actions in Hoshido and leave, while taking care to show that such a decision is perfectly valid regardless of how Corrin feels about it. We would have seen a character, who we accept as reasonable, express criticism and isn't punished for it or forced to apologize. Wouldn't that have taken the wind out of my sails?  

The writers didn't have to engineer anything, so this is really a moot point. 

No it doesn't. It literally has Takumi have a chance to have one last talk with Corrin, and it gives Corrin the ability to say he's sorry. If people went to Nohr because Takumi hurt their feelings, then oh well. I didn't. Takumi's mother was just killed, anger is a reasonable response to the person that was nearby and a potential proxy for the death. Corrin didn't see all of his plans succeed. Ryoma is dead, Takumi cannot be saved and is dead because of his choices, those are two characters that are at least signs that things did not go completely as planned. Oh, and if that weren't enough

 

Azura dies in the end

. What more could Corrin wish for? For Takumi to not be dead for starters. That's obvious. 

It would have made Kaze even worse to be honest. "Maybe you're not so bad, oh wait, you are. I'm going to betray you." That would have been kind of stupid. Both gameplay and storywise. Speaking of characters, Saizo. There's another one that I hadn't thought of until  just now, so even here, your claim is still false. 

 

For the second part, I was more so referring to the fact that she didn't want to talk about Ryoma and Takumi dying. Because all and all, it's your fault that they are dead. It's not the same as Birthright's ending where it doesn't have that dark cloud hanging over. They even sort of have a joke with Camilla saying she doesn't want to rule Nohr. 

 

And yes, I read the whole thing. And The thing is, I don't particularly have strong feelings for Conquest at all, but the thing is, the opposite holds true as well. Your dislike of the story doesn't mean that the story is somehow poorly written either. It's bad in this case, but it's not nearly as bad as some would claim. 

Edited by Augestein
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58 minutes ago, Augestein said:

And I ask this, how do you know that? Were you there when the writer wrote the story? Did he personally tell you this? Garon isn't reasonable, no, but the generics, Iago, Takumi, Ryoma... These people are reasonable enough. Some of them like Iago might be static characters, but it still counts as actual acknowledgement. The same way that Shinon in PoR has criticism towards Ike, and it's not wrong at all but never acknowledged by anyone or anything else... Like in PoR, even the villains praise Ike. Like Ashnard wants nothing to do with Elincia and is more concerned with Ike... A character he's never met.  In Conquest it is as seen by things not going perfectly right because of Corrin's decisions. It's mangled, but it's a hell of a lot better than say... What I just mentioned about PoR. Whether it was intentional or not, we can only guess, but it doesn't change the fact that there are people and saying it's never acknowledged is false

. Heck, even Azura's supports with Corrin change to acknowledge the story of Conquest as well. Supports may not be canon or something you have to view, but there is clear effort put into the validity of Corrin's decisions sprinkled throughout the story.

 

In the end, no one knows for sure, but given how the story is structured that is the only conclusion i am left with. It's not any singular occurence, but you can see it by looking at the overall pattern that recurs throughout the story. If they truly did intent to give legit criticism leaving it at these characters was shoddy writing. If they didn't intent the criticism to be legit then that's also shoddy writing.

The generics criticism is presented as a challenge for Corrin to get through on their way to achieving their plan. This is reinforced by Corrin repeatedly saying "Even if no one understands, I will have to dirty my hands in order to save them,". What the generics say is meant to be something that would clear up once they knew Corrin's actual intentions. The entire situation is set up to be the equivalent of Corrin carrying their cross up the execution hill while being hurled with abuse. The citiziens plight and anger don't matter, it's how Corrin suffers in that situation. The entire focus of the scene is on Corrin's pain at being "wrongfully" hated with Azura even encouraging them to go on "because it's just a little farther" and then everyone (who isn't dead) will know the truth. 

How is Iago reasonable? No one sees him as reasonable, since he never says one non-evil/slimy thing.

Takumi is already explained. Ryouma never actually holds hatred for Corrin, and is always focused on just getting them back to his side, except for when he hears about Hinoka supposedly being killed by them. And guess what, she wasn't, so it's totally fine for him to die in order to save Corrin and putting his trust in him.

Shinon iddn't have an entire arc focused on him getting proven wrong and never once becomes an Ike fanboy during PoR (haven't played RD yet, so I can't comment on that).

Corrin and Azura's Conquest supports are focused on Corrin's pain and suffering for choosing the "right" path.

58 minutes ago, Augestein said:

The writers didn't have to engineer anything, so this is really a moot point. 

No it doesn't. It literally has Takumi have a chance to have one last talk with Corrin, and it gives Corrin the ability to say he's sorry. If people went to Nohr because Takumi hurt their feelings, then oh well. I didn't. Takumi's mother was just killed, anger is a reasonable response to the person that was nearby and a potential proxy for the death. Corrin didn't see all of his plans succeed. Ryoma is dead, Takumi cannot be saved and is dead because of his choices, those are two characters that are at least signs that things did not go completely as planned. Oh, and if that weren't enough

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Azura dies in the end

. What more could Corrin wish for? For Takumi to not be dead for starters. That's obvious. 

It would have made Kaze even worse to be honest. "Maybe you're not so bad, oh wait, you are. I'm going to betray you." That would have been kind of stupid. Both gameplay and storywise. Speaking of characters, Saizo. There's another one that I hadn't thought of until  just now, so even here, your claim is still false. 

 

For the second part, I was more so referring to the fact that she didn't want to talk about Ryoma and Takumi dying. Because all and all, it's your fault that they are dead. It's not the same as Birthright's ending where it doesn't have that dark cloud hanging over. They even sort of have a joke with Camilla saying she doesn't want to rule Nohr. 

 

And yes, I read the whole thing. And The thing is, I don't particularly have strong feelings for Conquest at all, but the thing is, the opposite holds true as well. Your dislike of the story doesn't mean that the story is somehow poorly written either. It's bad in this case, but it's not nearly as bad as some would claim. 

I said they didn't have to. But they sure chose to. Takumi is a character in a story, and it was the writers' choice to have him come into that situation and be forced to apologize. They didn't have to write the situation that way, but they sure did.

That one non-specific sorry that Corrin gives is nothing compared to Takumi's very detailed account, especially because Takumi says "no it's all fine.". Takumi's apology is meant to be redemption. Corrin's apology is meant to make him look humble, self-sacrificing and magnaminous. Takumi ended up dead and apologetic, while Corrin and his plan were in the right and he ends up saving the day only because of it.

I wouldn't give the deaths too much credit, considering the enforced "two siblings will die each route" and "please buy rev dlc to save Azura". Also, again, the deaths were portrayed as these huge sacrifices Corrin had to make to ensure he emerges as the moral victor. That's why the way they spent the afterlife scene and epilogue making sure Corrin would know that no one blames him, and that everyone now sees how he was right is. The deaths aren't meant to be seen as "Oooh Corrin fucked that up." but rather "Poor Corrin, he suffered so much just for doing the right thing. If only they had realized it sooner, they wouldn't be dead now." (and again, Azura's death isn't a result of Conquest's plot or Corrin's decisions in particular). Guess what, Corrin gets the peace, his whole family's adoration and the knowledge that no one hates him for what he did. Ryouma and Takumi literally say "No hard feelings." all the way from the afterlife, just so they can be extra sure. The game goes to that great lengths to make them know it's fine.  

Kaze following Corrin as he invades Hoshido is what is illogical. Kaze joins Corrin under the assumption that he will find a way to end the war peacefully. That clearly didn't happen. And Kaze never asks for any explanation or anything, just goes right along the whole way, killing his family and friends while still never knowing about Corrin's plans. It really makes him look quite foolish to be honest.

I didn't really feel the same cloud from that dialogue. Both Hinoka and Sakura seemed very friendly and loving to Corrin. And again, "it wasn't your fault.". Hinoka also jokes around with Elise, Sakura and Corrin. At least Leo in Birthright was allowed to be reluctant to talking to Corrin again, and was also short with them refusing to call them brother/sister, even if it was spun to make him look tsundere.

"It's not nearly as bad as some would claim." is also an opinion my friend. 

 

Edited by Nanima²
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1 hour ago, Nanima² said:

In the end, no one knows for sure, but given how the story is structured that is the only conclusion i am left with. It's not any singular occurence, but you can see it by looking at the overall pattern that recurs throughout the story. If they truly did intent to give legit criticism leaving it at these characters was shoddy writing. If they didn't intent the criticism to be legit then that's also shoddy writing.

The generics criticism is presented as a challenge for Corrin to get through on their way to achieving their plan. This is reinforced by Corrin repeatedly saying "Even if no one understands, I will have to dirty my hands in order to save them,". What the generics say is meant to be something that would clear up once they knew Corrin's actual intentions. The entire situation is set up to be the equivalent of Corrin carrying their cross up the execution hill while being hurled with abuse. The citiziens plight and anger don't matter, it's how Corrin suffers in that situation. The entire focus of the scene is on Corrin's pain at being "wrongfully" hated with Azura even encouraging them to go on "because it's just a little farther" and then everyone (who isn't dead) will know the truth. 

How is Iago reasonable? No one sees him as reasonable, since he never says one non-evil/slimy thing.

Takumi is already explained. Ryouma never actually holds hatred for Corrin, and is always focused on just getting them back to his side, except for when he hears about Hinoka supposedly being killed by them. And guess what, she wasn't, so it's totally fine for him to die in order to save Corrin and putting his trust in him.

Shinon iddn't have an entire arc focused on him getting proven wrong and never once becomes an Ike fanboy during PoR (haven't played RD yet, so I can't comment on that).

Corrin and Azura's Conquest supports are focused on Corrin's pain and suffering for choosing the "right" path.

It is shoddy writing. I can agree with that. You won't see any argument from me that it's not botched. 

Why can't it be both? Why does it have to be one? 

He's following orders. If he got more development, he would have been better, but it's not unreasonable for a person to follow their king's orders. Sure, he eventually starts to show contempt towards Corrin, but that's merely because Corrin is always constantly trying to weasel his/her way into doing what he/she wants. They also were of questionable loyalty when they came back. And there's also the fact that Iago just plain seems to dislike Corrin.

Which matters? Is Ryoma supposed to hate Corrin? Do you have to hate anyone in war simply because you aren't the same side on them? Ryoma killed himself because he then understood that Corrin actually didn't want to kill him even if they weren't on the same side. It's not fine for him to die, but he was as good as dead anyways. King Garon himself was in the room at that point. 

Sure he did. Before Greil is gone, Shinon dogs Ike out for sucking. Greil shoves off eventually.  Shinon leaves because Ike sucks, and then Shinon joins the EVIL Daein to rise through the ranks. To get Shinon, the game forces you to kill him with Ike, and then begrudgingly joins. Shinon totally has a drunken rage about it too. Yeah, Shinon has an entire arc about it, the same way Jill has an entire arc focused on her doing the right thing and suffering through pain. It's not a main arc, but it's there. 

Yeah, I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing that as a consequence of Corrin's choice. Another victim to it. 

1 hour ago, Nanima² said:

I said they didn't have to. But they sure chose to. Takumi is a character in a story, and it was the writers' choice to have him come into that situation and be forced to apologize. They didn't have to write the situation that way, but they sure did.

That one non-specific sorry that Corrin gives is nothing compared to Takumi's very detailed account, especially because Takumi says "no it's all fine.". Takumi's apology is meant to be redemption. Corrin's apology is meant to make him look humble, self-sacrificing and magnaminous. Takumi ended up dead and apologetic, while Corrin and his plan were in the right and he ends up saving the day only because of it.

I wouldn't give the deaths too much credit, considering the enforced "two siblings will die each route" and "please buy rev dlc to save Azura". Also, again, the deaths were portrayed as these huge sacrifices Corrin had to make to ensure he emerges as the moral victor. That's why the way they spent the afterlife scene and epilogue making sure Corrin would know that no one blames him, and that everyone now sees how he was right is. The deaths aren't meant to be seen as "Oooh Corrin fucked that up." but rather "Poor Corrin, he suffered so much just for doing the right thing. If only they had realized it sooner, they wouldn't be dead now." (and again, Azura's death isn't a result of Conquest's plot or Corrin's decisions in particular). Guess what, Corrin gets the peace, his whole family's adoration and the knowledge that no one hates him for what he did. Ryouma and Takumi literally say "No hard feelings." all the way from the afterlife, just so they can be extra sure. The game goes to that great lengths to make them know it's fine.  

Kaze following Corrin as he invades Hoshido is what is illogical. Kaze joins Corrin under the assumption that he will find a way to end the war peacefully. That clearly didn't happen. And Kaze never asks for any explanation or anything, just goes right along the whole way, killing his family and friends while still never knowing about Corrin's plans. It really makes him look quite foolish to be honest.

I didn't really feel the same cloud from that dialogue. Both Hinoka and Sakura seemed very friendly and loving to Corrin. And again, "it wasn't your fault.". Hinoka also jokes around with Elise, Sakura and Corrin. At least Leo in Birthright was allowed to be reluctant to talking to Corrin again, and was also short with them refusing to call them brother/sister, even if it was spun to make him look tsundere.

"It's not nearly as bad as some would claim." is also an opinion my friend. 

And that's a very weak point. They could have made the story good, but they didn't. So why bother with what ifs like that outside of theory crafting crazy stuff? 

What is he supposed to say here? "No Corrin it's not fun, you're the worst, and I hope you die?" Like the man is dead. That probably changes a person's perspective on a lot of things. Second, even if Corrin's apology is humble, it should be, considering that this guy literally thought he could save everyone by doing what he did and failed. Corrin does stop Garon, yes, so in the end, the plan DID work overall, I fail to see your point here. Now if Corrin died, then we'd have a different story here-- literally and figuratively speaking. 

Which is again, something I'd contribute to sloppy writing. But at least in Conquest I'll give it credit, the sibling deaths feel far less stupid than they do in Birthright where sibling 1 dies and then sibling 2 ignores what the first says in their last breath. And again? I'm not seeing how you can say that, why can't a person legitimately feel bad for having this happen? If Corrin just shrugged it off, we'd have even worse problems than we do now. 

Yes. It is. So having Kaze hypothetically flop sides from Hoshido to Nohr, and then back to Hoshido would be beyond idiotic. And you mean Leo is allowed to act like Leo in Birthright? He's acted like that the whole game. 

Obviously. I don't even know why people bother to say that at this point. 

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5 hours ago, Augestein said:

It is shoddy writing. I can agree with that. You won't see any argument from me that it's not botched. 

Why can't it be both? Why does it have to be one? 

He's following orders. If he got more development, he would have been better, but it's not unreasonable for a person to follow their king's orders. Sure, he eventually starts to show contempt towards Corrin, but that's merely because Corrin is always constantly trying to weasel his/her way into doing what he/she wants. They also were of questionable loyalty when they came back. And there's also the fact that Iago just plain seems to dislike Corrin.

Which matters? Is Ryoma supposed to hate Corrin? Do you have to hate anyone in war simply because you aren't the same side on them? Ryoma killed himself because he then understood that Corrin actually didn't want to kill him even if they weren't on the same side. It's not fine for him to die, but he was as good as dead anyways. King Garon himself was in the room at that point. 

Sure he did. Before Greil is gone, Shinon dogs Ike out for sucking. Greil shoves off eventually.  Shinon leaves because Ike sucks, and then Shinon joins the EVIL Daein to rise through the ranks. To get Shinon, the game forces you to kill him with Ike, and then begrudgingly joins. Shinon totally has a drunken rage about it too. Yeah, Shinon has an entire arc about it, the same way Jill has an entire arc focused on her doing the right thing and suffering through pain. It's not a main arc, but it's there. 

Yeah, I'm not seeing that. I'm seeing that as a consequence of Corrin's choice. Another victim to it.

(...)

And that's a very weak point. They could have made the story good, but they didn't. So why bother with what ifs like that outside of theory crafting crazy stuff? 

What is he supposed to say here? "No Corrin it's not fun, you're the worst, and I hope you die?" Like the man is dead. That probably changes a person's perspective on a lot of things. Second, even if Corrin's apology is humble, it should be, considering that this guy literally thought he could save everyone by doing what he did and failed. Corrin does stop Garon, yes, so in the end, the plan DID work overall, I fail to see your point here. Now if Corrin died, then we'd have a different story here-- literally and figuratively speaking. 

Which is again, something I'd contribute to sloppy writing. But at least in Conquest I'll give it credit, the sibling deaths feel far less stupid than they do in Birthright where sibling 1 dies and then sibling 2 ignores what the first says in their last breath. And again? I'm not seeing how you can say that, why can't a person legitimately feel bad for having this happen? If Corrin just shrugged it off, we'd have even worse problems than we do now. 

Yes. It is. So having Kaze hypothetically flop sides from Hoshido to Nohr, and then back to Hoshido would be beyond idiotic. And you mean Leo is allowed to act like Leo in Birthright? He's acted like that the whole game. 

Obviously. I don't even know why people bother to say that at this point. 

If you consider it shoddy writing then why are you arguing with me about the validity of the criticism?

Because the scene is written with it's focus on Corrin? I don't know how much you know about literature and narrative theory (which has been a major point of my studies), but the way something is presented has an effect on how it is received. The way Corrin entering the city is framed puts empathise on their suffering while undermining the citizens anger.

Except that said King is a mass murdering monster, with no real moral compass. Iago is portrayed as a slimy, conniving asshole who gleefully obeys this monsters orders and tries to undermine Corrin all day every day. He is not reasonable by any means. And if you are talking reasonable as in possession of once sanity, then no that's not what I meant by it. What I meant by it is that a character that acts as a valid source of criticism, needs to be seen as having some objective point to it. Iago shittalking Corrin has the same effect as say Saruman shittalking Gandalf. No one takes that guys opinion as having any point to it besides "Wow, Saruman is a jealous asshole.". That's not even a point about character depth (obviously Saruman is a better developed character than Iago), but a point of no one taking Iago's criticism as valid or an actual point against Corrin. It's a point against Iago. He is a shitty vehicle to deliver criticism if you are planning for it to actually change anyones mind about Corrin.

No, but he didn't have to be all adoring of him either. Besides this you are still missing the main point. The writers didn't have to write the scene in such a way that it becomes Ryouma sacrificing himself for Corrin and entrusting him with his kingdoms wellbeing. The reason they did write the scene in such a way was to A) have someone tragically sacrifice himself for the protagonist and B) have Ryouma come around and see Corrin as the "righteous" person they were all along (previously he thought they were brainwashed by Nohr, not exactly personally critical of them). And that is shoddy writing focusing itself solely on the needs and validity of the hero. They could have framed it differently, without Gooron insisting Corrin kill or be killed, so Ryouma ends up killing himself more out of spite to Gooron (who would kill him either way) and wanting an honorable death. Instead of entrusting Corrin with his country as a sign of understanding of their goodwill, it could have been imploring Corrin to make up for their mistake and telling him to save what is left of Hoshido. But no, it was obviously more important for Corrin to know that big brother loved him so much and that his plan was the right thing. Which I will repeat, is shoddy writing in service of coddling the hero. 

You keep arguing that "what else were Ryouma/Takumi supposed to do?". You are approaching this entirely from an in-character perspective. Which I am arguing against with, hey they are characters put there by the writers whims. If the writers had any other priority besides coddling Corrin and making them out to be the messiah, they would have allowed for Takumi and Ryouma to still be able to express their anger over Corrin's decisions. But they engineered the story in such a way that everyone has no choice but to pave the way for Corrin's ascencion or "ruin it". Which is bull anyway, because there are hundreds of better stories out there where even the heroes allies who save the day are still allowed to throw shade at the hero for his actions while doing it. The afterlife scene has none of that. It features Takumi one-sidedly monologuing about all his mistakes and how he forgives Corrin, while Corrin's mistakes are left unaddressed except for a tiny sorry that gets thrown to the wayside immediately. Because it's all fine. That is not an equal discussion or admittance of fault. That is lopsided in Corrin's favour. 

And before you go back to "but else the world would have been doomed.", wow so Corrin would have run away crying and never went back to defeat Posessed!Takumi if Takumi had called him on his shit? No, of course not (although I wouldn't put it past the character as he is portrayed in the story). You keep arguing like there is no middle ground. That there could not have been a way for Takumi to admit to his failings whithout falling all over himself to absolve Corrin of his. He could have still given the Fuujin to help Corrin make things right again. As a first step by two people towards making up for their mistakes. But no, the scene is framed with Corrin being blameless and Takumi shouldering the entire guilt of it. Again, one tiny sorry that gets immediately invalidated (with Corrin not even arguing and just accepting his own blamelessness) does not compare to Takumi's "sorry I was mean to you." monologue. 

If you are still arguing about "What else could they have done?" and argue that the scene would not have made sense any other way, then wow the writing on the whole really is shitty if the only way to resolve things is through such a stupid, pandering conversation. Personally, I find "What else could they have done" to be the weakest argument here. It's ficition, someone chose to write it this way in favour of other potential ways. We are not watching a documentary. There are always other ways for things to be written, both better and worse. If the framing only lets a single conclusion happen, and that conclusion happens to be awful and pandering, then the writing itself is awful. They twisted the entire story so Corrin would receive his pep-talk in the afterlife. Saying there is no other way for things to be written is lacking in imagination. 

The point of Corrin's plan being awful, is that it involves him conquering a peaceful nation just for the chance of Garon maybe sitting on the shiny chair. What if he hadn't? What if Anankos and by extension Gooron, had known about the Vallite-made thrones properties and not sat on it. Or just decided he didn't like the looks of it? Woops, thousands of Hoshidans just died for nothing. What an incredibly shaky plan that has the sacrifice of thousands of innocents at it's core. A sacrifice that Corrin then aknowledges by moaning about it will ruin his happiness by having him dirty his hands like that. Neither Corrin or Azura even takes the time to think of any alternatives, we are just supposed to take it as the only choice there is. I say, having the "only" "plan", that these characters put thousands of innocent lives in the balance for, being this weak is incredibly poor writing. I am sure there are also much better things the writing team could have come up with than still presenting Corrin as a straight hero after all is said and done. Because choosing to let thousands die to make your plan succeed is not something a straight A hero would do. That is for a grey, morally questionable protagonist. The biggest problem here is that Corrin is still presented as the flawless messiah and straight A hero.

It's not about Corrin feeling bad. It's that his pain is the only focus and other characters push back their own pain or have it remain unaknowledged so Corrin can have his pity hour. In the end, it all comes back to Corrin being the entire focus. Bad things happen, but the only thing that matters is that Corrin feels bad about it.

Really? Kaze joined because he thought Corrin would resolve things non-violently. The invasion of Hoshido, along with zero explanation of Corrin's motives for it, rather puts an end to that "non-violence", doesn't it? He follows Corrin because he believes Corrin won't let Hoshido come to harm. But Corrin ends up doing exactly that, betraying his trust. Him remaining at his side after that, makes me think that Kaze doesn't give a shit about his home or his people, since he has no way of knowing that Corrin isn't just rolling over and letting Garon destroy the enitre place (well Corrin still let's Gooron and co. destroy a lot anyway). Him turning on Corrin at that point would have been the only thing that made sense with his personality in mind. 

Leo gets to express at least some negativity for Corrin. No one else is allowed to do so in either ending. Do I need to bring back Hinoka's exact conversation lines?

The full quote is "Your dislike of the story doesn't mean that the story is somehow poorly written either. It's bad in this case, but it's not nearly as bad as some would claim.". So you basically said "That's just your opinion." followed by stating "But the story really isn't that bad." like it's an actual fact. Which is why I then pointed out that this too is just an opinion. Again, presentation matters in how something is understood.    

 

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If you consider it shoddy writing then why are you arguing with me about the validity of the criticism?

Because it's not shoddy for the reasons you're saying. That's the issue that's going on here. It's fun to bash Fates I guess, but the moaning has hit exaggerated points to the extent that not only does it overwhelm a topic and derail it, but also to the point that it's not even accurate. I'm not arguing on its plot anymore. These back and froths keep getting longer and more tiresome. 

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2 hours ago, Augestein said:

Because it's not shoddy for the reasons you're saying. That's the issue that's going on here. It's fun to bash Fates I guess, but the moaning has hit exaggerated points to the extent that not only does it overwhelm a topic and derail it, but also to the point that it's not even accurate. I'm not arguing on its plot anymore. These back and froths keep getting longer and more tiresome. 

And that is your right to decide. I think I have done plenty enough to explain my points, although you do not accept them as such. Fair enough. I guess it would be too much to ask you to use a less dismissive tone, but I don't really care at this point. I find your arguments to not make any sense either, though it's good for you if they help you get some enjoyment out off Conquest. Anyway, we clearly aren't getting anywhere and I am aslo pretty tired of this.

Edited by Nanima²
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Augestein, can I ask why you even bother to comment on threads like these anymore? You often pop your head in and say "people exaggerate" and "this has been talked about to death" without really seeming to take other people's views into consideration. Nanima has been very thorough in explaining her point of view, and you just shrug it off. You even say things are not accurate - well, what did Nanima say that was actually wrong? 

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Personally I dislike Female Corrin more than Male Corrin. And it's because of personality differences actually. While they are mostly the same characters, the few supports that are different, Female Corrin comes off as much more judgemental than Male Corrin. Just see her support with Odin. 

It makes Female Corrin a much bigger hypocrite in my eyes. And while Male Corrin is more meek, it actually makes sense, considering he spent most his life stuck in fortress and being coddled by his siblings. Female Corrin's more confident personality actually makes no sense actually.

Edited by Water Mage
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17 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

While they are mostly the same characters, the few supports that are different, Female Corrin comes off as much more judgemental than Male Corrin. Just see her support with Odin. 

Female and Male Corrin's supports with Odin are exactly the same from C-A.

As for the topic at hand, I do not like Corrin, for reasons that have been covered in depth elsewhere in the thread. Birthright Kamui is competently written but boring and thus the least bad but still not great, Revelation Kamui is a naive idiot whose naivete is excused and even presented as a positive by Ryoma and Xander, and Nohrrin is a whiny, stupid, selfish coward with zero agency.

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One thing that bothered me about the endgame cutscenes with dead people is that the only people who show up to reassure Corrin are the ones from the other route. Why does Kaze not show up in Birthright if he's dead, since he literally sacrificed himself for you? I can overlook that one because Kaze is not guaranteed to be dead, but where is Mikoto? You know, Corrin's mother who kicks off the plot with her death before the route split? Don't you think she should always be there, regardless of Birthright or Conquest?

With the way it's structured, the endgame cutscene feels like the game is reassuring YOU, the player, that "it's okay, these people either wanted to die to save you or have no hard feelings against you even though you killed them". Because we REALLY need to make sure that Marx and Flora don't have anything against you for being partially the cause for their suffering and eventual death, and we REALLY need to know that Elise and Lilith don't regret sacrificing themselves for you and that you're Elise's favorite sibling. And as for Hoshido, we REALLY need to make sure that it's made clear that Ryouma has no hard feelings against you, Takumi sees the error of his ways, and even your mother who sacrificed herself for you still loves you and you're the apple of her eye after you helped destroy the country she loved and ruled, and two of the children she raised instead of you. Lilith shows up, but she doesn't even say anything relevant, she just takes you back. Because Lilith is from Nohr pre-game and what we REALLY need to focus on is Hoshido not being mad at you.

Honestly, the entire story is structured to make Corrin a self-important universe bending attention grabbing special snowflake character. A Mary Sue can also be defined by how they warp the characters and the world around them. So even if Corrin is more "pathetic" and "fails more" in Conquest, it comes off as the narrative still trying to convince us how Corrin is never at fault for anything and how the world (or Garon) is so mean to him unfairly.

@Water Mage: There are personality differences in male and female Corrin?

Edited by Sunwoo
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1 hour ago, Sunwoo said:

 

@Water Mage: There are personality differences in male and female Corrin?

They are small, but they are there. Particularly in the confessions and Corrin-sexual supports. Male Corrin seems to be more gentle, supportive and shy and Female Corrin is more outspoken, judgemental and less patient. Just compare the S-support of Male and Female Corrin.

 

3 hours ago, AzureSen said:

Female and Male Corrin's supports with Odin are exactly the same from C-A.

To be fair, I was talking about the S-support.

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4 minutes ago, Water Mage said:

To be fair, I was talking about the S-support.

Do those even count? I mean, male Corrin says he'll hire sturdy servants who don't die easily when Peri feels like attacking them out of nowhere.

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4 minutes ago, Thane said:

Do those even count? I mean, male Corrin says he'll hire sturdy servants who don't die easily when Peri feels like attacking them out of nowhere.

I was talking about how Female Corrin treats Odin in their S-support.

Even though Corrin and Peri's S-support messed up, wrong and just plain stupid, at the very least he doesn't treat her with disrespect.

Edited by Water Mage
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Just now, Water Mage said:

Again, I was talking about how Female Corrin treats Odin in their S-support. 

Even though Corrin and Peri's S-support messed up, wrong and just plain stupid, at the very least he doesn't treat her with disrespect.

Yeah, but I bet he won't tell those servants what he has in mind or why they in particular are going to be hired, that's for sure. 

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1 minute ago, Thane said:

Yeah, but I bet he won't tell those servants what he has in mind or why they in particular are going to be hired, that's for sure. 

To be fair, my argument wasn't about questionable morals. It was how a person treats the one they are about to marry. 

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Just now, Water Mage said:

To be fair, my argument wasn't about questionable morals. It was how a person treats the one they are about to marry. 

Oh, I was merely having a bit of a laugh, I apologize. However, I do think the S supports shouldn't be indicative of any differences between male and female Corrin.

Their drama CD personalities might differ quite a bit though - apparently female Corrin is a porcelain doll, which I think sort of goes against the whole wielding a chainsaw sword and fighting eldritch abominations, but what do I know.

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