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Analysis/Defense/Critique of Camilla

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Heh. Trolling aside...

The polls for FE Heroes got me thinking about Camilla and Tharja and all the hate directed at them for being sexy characters who got highly voted. And even though Tharja gets a lot of hate, I feel like she's overall a better character and is easier to justify calling 'well-written'. Camilla, though... she's harder to defend. 

So I guess I like a challenge lol, because that's what I attempted to do

Even though she's kind of a bad character, there's still some stuff of interest to her character (if you're weird like me and like dark/mentally ill characters), and I don't think it NEEDS to be a bad thing that she's sexualized to a degree (though obviously Fates goes overboard with it). 

So... uhh, yeah... If anyone's interested, there's my thoughts on the matter ^ 

I welcome discussion in the thread so long as people can be RATIONAL and RESPECTFUL about it. 

Edited by BANRYU

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52 minutes ago, BANRYU said:

tumblr_oke9k9uGri1shnqb4o1_500.png

Heh. Trolling aside...

The polls for FE Heroes got me thinking about Camilla and Tharja and all the hate directed at them for being sexy characters who got highly voted. And even though Tharja gets a lot of hate, I feel like she's overall a better character and is easier to justify calling 'well-written'. Camilla, though... she's harder to defend. 

So I guess I like a challenge lol, because that's what I attempted to do

Even though she's kind of a bad character, there's still some stuff of interest to her character (if you're weird like me and like dark/mentally ill characters), and I don't think it NEEDS to be a bad thing that she's sexualized to a degree (though obviously Fates goes overboard with it). 

So... uhh, yeah... If anyone's interested, there's my thoughts on the matter ^ 

I welcome discussion in the thread so long as people can be RATIONAL and RESPECTFUL about it. 

I actually think Camilla's not that bad.  She's not my favorite, but I don't hate her, either.  I think she's a good example of a mentally unbalanced character, who overcompensates for her lack of love as a child by trying to be the best motherly figure she can be.

I can somewhat empathize with Camilla.  My relationship with my own mother was not the best.  Nothing at Camilla's level, but my mother drank a bit too much for me to be comfortable and was a different person when she did.  As such, I've strived to be the best possible parent I can to my kids.  I also tried to take my younger cousins under my wing as best I could.

I actually like Camilla as a villain, seeing her after she snaps from the perceived rejection of her love, and I wish they had done more with that.

The only things that bother me about Camilla's outfit are the battle panties and the boob strap that moves from side to side.  I think she should have worn something like Petrine from Path of Radiance, still sexy, but not stupid looking.

I don't know how to post images anymore.  Any word on when we can?

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25 minutes ago, Rezzy said:

I actually think Camilla's not that bad.  She's not my favorite, but I don't hate her, either.  I think she's a good example of a mentally unbalanced character, who overcompensates for her lack of love as a child by trying to be the best motherly figure she can be. YES! Exactly! She might be a fucked-up person, but it's so potentially-interesting to me @[email protected] 

I can somewhat empathize with Camilla.  My relationship with my own mother was not the best.  Nothing at Camilla's level, but my mother drank a bit too much for me to be comfortable and was a different person when she did.  As such, I've strived to be the best possible parent I can to my kids.  I also tried to take my younger cousins under my wing as best I could. Right? If anything, her own mom was significantly more despicable than she is; as far as she's concerned she's just doing her best to keep everyone safe and maintain her family. THAT'S REALLY GOOD. The fact that she's violent about it as well makes it quite scary too though haha... And yeah, I hear you, I'm pretty protective of my friends/family etc. as well xWx And in Camilla's case, in the event when her love is unconditionally returned, I believe pretty firmly that those who return it have nothing much to fear, really? Like... she's with you, she's WITH you, she'll kill and bleed for you y'know? That's respectable too I think. 

I actually like Camilla as a villain, seeing her after she snaps from the perceived rejection of her love, and I wish they had done more with that. YESSS. I really wanted to see more of that. Even though she's not, she's so dangerously close to BEING a villain that they could have done something really dark or tragic or interesting with that... (see the 'bloody queen' AU I mentioned/linked in the article haha it's pretty great)

The only things that bother me about Camilla's outfit are the battle panties and the boob strap that moves from side to side.  I think she should have worn something like Petrine from Path of Radiance, still sexy, but not stupid looking. Yeah Petrine's outfit is pretty great tbh. I thought the boob strap was to keep her little capelet in place, so I never really saw the problem with it...? But yeah, if she had some damn pants then her cleave would be the only exposed skin; still hot but more practical to SOME degree at least. 

I don't know how to post images anymore.  Any word on when we can? I've been using the 'insert other media' button on the bottom-right just underneath the text box and above the 'submit/post' button. I think that should work...?

I talk in green ~w~

Edited by BANRYU

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While there's nothing technically wrong with sexy characters there's also nothing technically right about them either. It is what it is...some half naked fictional women in a video game. I think that means it's perfectly fine to hate their looks and criticize them for it. After all it's just opinions in the end. Despite this, it's depressing for me that I'm one of the only ""prudes"" on the entire internet as nearly everyone praises and worships sexy characters just because. It's an annoying world to be in when nearly everyone has a different taste to you as it means often things like entertainment often are catered to the masses rather than what you want. Case and point, the fire emblem sexual fan service pandering and how it rose dramatically from awakening to fates. Again. there's nothing objectively wrong with it but I for one can't bloody stand that sort of stuff and it's a shame imo that there's so much of it as it results in less games that appeal to me and people like me. Then again, nobody cares about what ""prudes"" say these days...in fact, I'm probably going to get shamed just for stating a view like this. Oh well, first world problems I guess.

Edited by Dinar87

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I did like the critique, even as someone who hasn't played the game, but I do have one thing to add- high-heeled boots were immensely popular amongst men because they made holding your feet in the stirrups of a horse that much easier. I haven't heard much about riding what is apparently an undead wyvern, but I'd imagine Camilla's heels come for a similar reason.

Considering the rest of her armour design and how few other mounted units (female or otherwise) have heels, I'm not going to give this point to the character designer.

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1 hour ago, Dinar87 said:

While there's nothing technically wrong with sexy characters there's also nothing technically right about them either. It is what it is...some half naked fictional women in a video game. I think that means it's perfectly fine to hate their looks and criticize them for it. After all it's just opinions in the end. Despite this, it's depressing for me that I'm one of the only ""prudes"" on the entire internet as nearly everyone praises and worships sexy characters just because. It's an annoying world to be in when nearly everyone has a different taste to you as it means often things like entertainment often are catered to the masses rather than what you want. Case and point, the fire emblem sexual fan service pandering and how it rose dramatically from awakening to fates. Again. there's nothing objectively wrong with it but I for one can't bloody stand that sort of stuff and it's a shame imo that there's so much of it as it results in less games that appeal to me and people like me. Then again, nobody cares about what ""prudes"" say these days...in fact, I'm probably going to get shamed just for stating a view like this. Oh well, first world problems I guess.

Don't get me wrong, just because I'm defending the rights of female characters (and females in general really) to dress 'sexy', it doesn't mean that I'm necessarily okay with indiscriminately sexy designs-- I think it's safe to say a fair portion of them are dime-a-dozen nothings designed for nothing but sex appeal and I'm hardly okay with that. I also don't like the term 'prude' to refer to people who don't like those designs (though I recognize you were probably using it in an ironic sense?), it just seems derogatory and close-minded to me.

You don't have to like those designs if they make you uncomfortable or you're not into them and don't let anyone tell you otherwise; everyone has their preference and I don't think there's anything wrong with that as long as you're not hurting or shitting on someone with your opinion or preference, and I'll defend your right to prefer more conservatively-clad characters as much as I will for those who like the sexier characters.

People should just be able to like what they like without having to feel bad or guilty, y'know? That's the main thing I'm tryna get across by defending the sexy designs. You are equally valid in your opinion as they are. 

1 hour ago, phineas81707 said:

I did like the critique, even as someone who hasn't played the game, but I do have one thing to add- high-heeled boots were immensely popular amongst men because they made holding your feet in the stirrups of a horse that much easier. I haven't heard much about riding what is apparently an undead wyvern, but I'd imagine Camilla's heels come for a similar reason.

Considering the rest of her armour design and how few other mounted units (female or otherwise) have heels, I'm not going to give this point to the character designer.

Thank you, I appreciate that! 

That's really interesting, I actually had no idea that heels had relevant usage for riders :O In light of that, I think it's actually totally plausible that the heels COULD be used for that purpose, although frankly, I doubt that was the intent of the design lol. Still, that is interesting. 

Edited by BANRYU

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Appearance-wise, I dislike the both of them. I don't care for fan service, which is what these characters are. Mind you, I'll tolerate them, but they're in the army. Put a shirt on! You're just going to be killed. I know this type of stuff is a lost cause in video games (do none of the female units have pants that cover their underwear?), but it's still a bit of a pet peeve to me.

But for Camilla's personality, it slowly grew on me. I first though her doting on Corrin was just pandering to the fans through fan service, but in the supports it is revealed that she does this because she was alone as a child, and acts motherly so others will feel loved. And the fact that it's her own way of covering up her own past in the implied "concubine wars" makes her character very interesting. Her story reaches its height in Birthright, when the avatar "rejects" her love, and Camilla goes off the deep end trying to bring him back to Nohr. Altogether, a well put together character. My main dislike of her personality is the fact that she seems to pay too much attention to Corrin and not to Leo, Elise, or other characters, but that is slightly explained in her supports with him/her.

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1 hour ago, Rex Glacies said:

Appearance-wise, I dislike the both of them. I don't care for fan service, which is what these characters are. Mind you, I'll tolerate them, but they're in the army. Put a shirt on! You're just going to be killed. I know this type of stuff is a lost cause in video games (do none of the female units have pants that cover their underwear?), but it's still a bit of a pet peeve to me.

But for Camilla's personality, it slowly grew on me. I first though her doting on Corrin was just pandering to the fans through fan service, but in the supports it is revealed that she does this because she was alone as a child, and acts motherly so others will feel loved. And the fact that it's her own way of covering up her own past in the implied "concubine wars" makes her character very interesting. Her story reaches its height in Birthright, when the avatar "rejects" her love, and Camilla goes off the deep end trying to bring him back to Nohr. Altogether, a well put together character. My main dislike of her personality is the fact that she seems to pay too much attention to Corrin and not to Leo, Elise, or other characters, but that is slightly explained in her supports with him/her.

The Ghast Station video I linked in my analysis does a fairly good job of addressing why Camilla is overall less doting on Leo and Elise... Simply put, she knows Corrin was raised without a mother of their own and experiences of neglect with her own mother drive her to fill that void for both of them, in a sense. There were other reasons why Leo and Elise don't need that role as much specifically, but I don't recall the details and don't have the luxury of sitting through the video to refresh my memory unfortunately ;;

And I mean... if we're nitpicking the fact that Camilla's outfit isn't proper army attire, there's a plethora of ground to cover there, such as units' armor being personalized and color-coded for them to be unique and special snowflakes... I tend to try not to breach THAT territory myself lol. As long as my most basic suspension of disbelief is covered I'm good personally =3= and yeah, cavalry units with exposed thighs and/or butts is a pretty hard immersion breaker lol. 

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I think Camilla said that Leo was basically a wunderkind, and she thought that he neither needed nor wanted her affection, but he admits that he actually did in their supports, if I remember correctly.

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The one thing your analysis is missing, IMO, is actual citations for your assertions.  I'll either refer to which support convo goes into what, or nab bits that are actually relevant to my analysis.

That being said, my opinion of Camilla is that she's an amazing combat unit whose support potential is wasted.  I'm rewriting Fates in a draft somewhere, and I'm STILL not doing justice to her character.

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12 minutes ago, eclipse said:

The one thing your analysis is missing, IMO, is actual citations for your assertions.  I'll either refer to which support convo goes into what, or nab bits that are actually relevant to my analysis.

That being said, my opinion of Camilla is that she's an amazing combat unit whose support potential is wasted.  I'm rewriting Fates in a draft somewhere, and I'm STILL not doing justice to her character.

For Camilla x Leo, in the B support, Leo grumbles that Camilla never pays attention to him.  In the A, Leo feels that he isn't as good as his other siblings, and that's why Camilla ignored him, but she confesses that he excelled at everything, so she thought he didn't need her, but admits that she should have been more vocal in her pride in him.

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I never had a big problem with Tharja, I just never really liked her at all.

But Camilla, oh boy, I'm really, really don't like her. The first time I saw her, I thought I end up in the wrong site or something.

You guess it, her design. Of course, I really don't like it because panties and you know the rest.

But you know, you wouldn't really mind her outfit if it would make sense for her character.

One example that I can give is another character from Fates: Charlotte.

I'm not a fan of Charlotte either, but she's equal to Camilla in term of euh... personality... if you know what I mean :)

Joke aside, as I said, I don't mind Charlotte's outfit because it's part of her character: she's a golddigger.

But Camilla? She's suppose to be the overprotective big sister who's also a  beautiful but dangerous thread on the battlefield. She doesn't look like a thread at all, she looks like we just reclassed a dancer to a wyvern rider and she forgot to bring her pants.

That's my big problem

 

Edited by Nym

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Holy shit, Exaltedgrimleal and Lightningbug Lane reblogged it and its viewership freakin' skyrocketed. It has 150+ notes now... that's more than my original tumblr content EVER gets haha wow.

1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

I think Camilla said that Leo was basically a wunderkind, and she thought that he neither needed nor wanted her affection, but he admits that he actually did in their supports, if I remember correctly.

1 hour ago, eclipse said:

The one thing your analysis is missing, IMO, is actual citations for your assertions.  I'll either refer to which support convo goes into what, or nab bits that are actually relevant to my analysis.

That being said, my opinion of Camilla is that she's an amazing combat unit whose support potential is wasted.  I'm rewriting Fates in a draft somewhere, and I'm STILL not doing justice to her character.

1 hour ago, Rezzy said:

For Camilla x Leo, in the B support, Leo grumbles that Camilla never pays attention to him.  In the A, Leo feels that he isn't as good as his other siblings, and that's why Camilla ignored him, but she confesses that he excelled at everything, so she thought he didn't need her, but admits that she should have been more vocal in her pride in him.

I think eclipse was talking to me when she said that ~3o You're quite right about those two, @Rezzy, I remember it so no citation needed.

@eclipse it's true my case would have been made stronger by the additions of citations, that is a fair criticism. I confess I was fairly tired of working on it, so once I'd said everything I wanted to say I was pretty eager to get it out there and you're right that I don't quite cite anything, I suppose I may have been relying on Ghast Station's work on his video to illustrate that.

Ahhh you're rewriting Fates huh? I actually had the idea to do something similar the other day; I randomly started watching the Fates announcement trailers again and reminiscing about the initial hype I got from it, and thought about how little the game's plot lived up to that haha... Reworking the entire story from its base concept does seem like something it needed... Well, I wish you luck with your project! I don't know if I'll ever actually get around to doing that myself x3x

 

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Yes, it was meant for your article.  I can assert anything about a character, but it doesn't mean much if I don't post what I read and how I drew that conclusion based off of what I read.

I'll add the Conquest rewrite to my sig.  It's still in progress, but I WILL finish it!  Camilla had so much potential in Fates, but like most of the cast, it gets wasted.  Perhaps I'll do a rewrite of Conquest where Camilla takes Corrin's place, but that is low on my list of priorities.  There's a lot to her, but I'm not sure if I'm capable of bringing out her full potential.

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No yeah, it's definitely a fair and valid criticism. If I ever do a writeup like this again, I'll be sure to list my sources; at this point I think it's too late to properly source being that it's on tumblr and editing the base post doesn't change reblogs x___X

 I'd love to check that rewrite out if I have the time! 

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