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29 minutes ago, Othin said:

His bow alone is pretty slow at reducing his HP.

Unlike Brave Bow, Candlewax Bow more easily gives the opponent a chance to counterattack. Assuming the opponent gets off only a single counterattack, you'll end up taking 3 less damage than otherwise in combat, but 3 more damage than otherwise after combat is over, which makes dropping your HP safer.

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Do Far/Near Save units not care for Distant/Close Counter? I don't think I've ever seen anyone use those skills together except for B!Hector with Ostian Counter.

I'm asking because I was think of possibly getting W!Jaffar or W!Zephiel with a Counter and Save skill but I'm not sure about the Counter part anymore.

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20 minutes ago, NegativeExponents- said:

Do Far/Near Save units not care for Distant/Close Counter? I don't think I've ever seen anyone use those skills together except for B!Hector with Ostian Counter.

I'm asking because I was think of possibly getting W!Jaffar or W!Zephiel with a Counter and Save skill but I'm not sure about the Counter part anymore.

Compared to other armors, Save units tend to have a much easier time sticking to their preferred range, especially if you have one Close Save armor and one Far Save one. Meanwhile the fact that they're trying to soak up hits for your whole team means they need to be really sturdy, so giving up their A slot for a Counter skill is a huge price. Brave Hector can at least get some stats out of it.

I've seen some particularly strong melee armors like Brave Edelgard run Distant Counter + Far Save, and some melee armors like Fallen Edelgard get DC through their weapon so they can run Far Save easily. Personally I run Lightning Breath + Far Save on my Forma Winter Fae, and I could see Winter Zephiel running DC + Crafty Fighter + Far Save if that's something your team wants. But my impression is that it'd be wasteful to run DC on a Close Save unit or CC on a Far Save unit, and running a ranged armor with CC + Close Save seems really bad compared to just using a melee armor.

In general, Save tanks seem like they want their A slot to be Sturdy/Mirror/Bracing Stance or Close/Distant Def, depending on whether or not they have another skill providing a Guard effect.

Edited by Othin
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36 minutes ago, Othin said:

Compared to other armors, Save units tend to have a much easier time sticking to their preferred range, especially if you have one Close Save armor and one Far Save one. Meanwhile the fact that they're trying to soak up hits for your whole team means they need to be really sturdy, so giving up their A slot for a Counter skill is a huge price. Brave Hector can at least get some stats out of it.

I've seen some particularly strong melee armors like Brave Edelgard run Distant Counter + Far Save, and some melee armors like Fallen Edelgard get DC through their weapon so they can run Far Save easily. Personally I run Lightning Breath + Far Save on my Forma Winter Fae, and I could see Winter Zephiel running DC + Crafty Fighter + Far Save if that's something your team wants. But my impression is that it'd be wasteful to run DC on a Close Save unit or CC on a Far Save unit, and running a ranged armor with CC + Close Save seems really bad compared to just using a melee armor.

In general, Save tanks seem like they want their A slot to be Sturdy/Mirror/Bracing Stance or Close/Distant Def, depending on whether or not they have another skill providing a Guard effect.

I see. I guess that does make a lot more sense now that I think about it. Especially if I ever get another Save armor to cover the other one's weakness.

Thanks. I'm still not sure whether I'll actually go for it but if I do I at least know what skills to look out for now.

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I have way to much armor exclusive fodder and nobody to give it to. Like 3 copies of vengeful and bold fighter each, a spare Nagi for DC / special fighter. And a spare Dedue for close save.

So any good recomendations for a good, and easily mergeable armor unit? Either grails, or a 3-4 star summon.

The one who immediately came to mind is Sheena since the game has flooded me with copies of her recently. 6 shown up for me while going for Shamir off this rerun. But i'm open to more suggestions. But grail units will have to be put on hold until i'm done with the final 2 merges for plegia Kris. So preferably a 3-4 star summon unit.

I'm also not a huge fan of seasonals. The only ones I really like using are the plegia ones since they could possibly pass for actual alts. And not seasonals. I just don't like the goofy outfits from stuff like christmas and halloween seasonal units.

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23 minutes ago, Faellin said:

I have way to much armor exclusive fodder and nobody to give it to. Like 3 copies of vengeful and bold fighter each, a spare Nagi for DC / special fighter. And a spare Dedue for close save.

So any good recomendations for a good, and easily mergeable armor unit? Either grails, or a 3-4 star summon.

The one who immediately came to mind is Sheena since the game has flooded me with copies of her recently. 6 shown up for me while going for Shamir off this rerun. But i'm open to more suggestions. But grail units will have to be put on hold until i'm done with the final 2 merges for plegia Kris. So preferably a 3-4 star summon unit.

I'm also not a huge fan of seasonals. The only ones I really like using are the plegia ones since they could possibly pass for actual alts. And not seasonals. I just don't like the goofy outfits from stuff like christmas and halloween seasonal units.

Vengeful Fighter is worth using on any of the 4-star and Grail armors, even Arden if you don't mind using him purely for enemy phase.

Sheena is relatively future-proof with Vengeful Fighter because her weapon already gives her Guard, which means she doesn't get much benefit from Crafty Fighter.

Arden also has Guard on his weapon, and his weapon's effect has the same 50% HP activation threshold as Vengeful Fighter, so he also doesn't get much benefit from Crafty Fighter for an enemy-phase build. He'll lose a lot of his player-phase presence, but gains fast Specials on enemy phase due to his Meister weapon, allowing him to activate Bonfire off of his huge Def stat twice in one round of combat if he gets doubled.

Gwendolyn can run Vengeful Fighter to get a Special charge rate boost on all attacks on enemy phase, which helps for charging up Aether, though Vengeful Fighter is overkill for faster Specials unless you're expecting to fight opponents that have Guard.

 

Bold Fighter is best used on units that you already have Armor March or Armored Stride on or that you often use with Armored Boots or a teammate with Armor March. Among the free choices, I'd recommend Black Knight and the ranged Grail armors as having the best value due to Black Knight's powerful Black Luna and the ranged armors' increased reach.

However, you can still make an argument for giving it to Gwendolyn, Effie, and Sheena, as their weapon effects work on both phases. Gwendolyn in particular can activate Aether on her follow-up when initiating combat against an opponent that can counterattack or Bonfire against an opponent with Guard or that cannot counterattack.

 

Distant Counter + Special Fighter goes best on a fast unit or one with a guaranteed follow-up on their weapon. Black Knight, Winter Felix, and Winter Jaffar are the only free units that have enough Spd to really make use of Special Fighter without significant investment, but none of them have any use for Distant Counter. In the special 4-star pool, Amelia is the best unit to receive both skills, but Special Fighter is also worth giving to Zelgius or Brave Hector if you don't mind not making use of Distant Counter.

 

The best users of Close Save are the units that already have it. However, if you want to give it to an easily mergeable unit, Arden is extremely good if you don't need to deal with dragons or have a teammate than can handle them for him. Otherwise, I'd recommend either saving it for later or merging Dedue if he has -HP, -Atk, or -Def.

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6 hours ago, NegativeExponents- said:

I see. I guess that does make a lot more sense now that I think about it. Especially if I ever get another Save armor to cover the other one's weakness.

Thanks. I'm still not sure whether I'll actually go for it but if I do I at least know what skills to look out for now.

I recommend trying it out in Rival Domains/Grand Conquest since it is free, as all you need to do is to befriend players with Save armors. After that, you can make a more informed decision of whether you really want it or not.

Like regular super tank teams, Save super tank teams can make Aether Raids maps much more bearable. But unlike regular super tank teams who are extremely vulnerable to being flanked and surrounded, Save super tank teams can trivialize most PvE Abyssal maps since the Save tanks can protect squishy supports close by, so it does not matter where enemy reinforcements spawn from.

If you do go for Save tanks but you do not want to spend a lot, Gustav: Majestic Love and Henriette: Overflowing Love are good to go out the box and they share the same Focus. Henriette: Overflowing Love will need Crafty Fighter for some of the more difficult maps though, but other than that, both of their default skill kits are pretty close to being optimal. If you do not mind spending a bit more, I would replace Henriette: Overflowing love with Faye: Drawn Heartstring, since she has access to Courtly Bow for damage reduction. You also want to make sure you have at least two Flayns for optimal performance to provide damage reduction.

1 hour ago, TheSilentChloey said:

Aversa build suggestions needed.

I'm thinking of her being my next grail project after Halloween Rolf.

She already is +4 so here's hoping I get some more.

Player Phase:
+Spd
Rauðrblade
Reposition
Moonbow — Ruptured Sky
(Any A that boosts Atk/Spd)
Desperation
Spd/Res Rein
(Any Sacred Seal that boosts Atk/Spd)

Support; Panic
+HP
Aversa's Night
(Any Assist)
Moonbow — Ruptured Sky
R Duel Flying — HP+5
(Any Chill) — Renewal (with Ardent Sacrifice/Reciprocal Aid) — (Any Ruse) (with Rally Assists) — (Any Links/Snags) (with movement Assists)
Panic Ploy
HP+5
Since she already got Sudden Panic on her Weapon and she cannot use Pulse Ties, there are no other B slot support skills that checks HP, so she is just going to be running skills that do not rely on an HP check. I think she should still run Panic Ploy though to try to hit enemies that are not grouped up.

Support; Sabotage
+Res
Aversa's Night
(Any Assist)
Moonbow — Ruptured Sky
R Duel Flying — Fort. Def/Res
(Any Sabotage)
(Any Ploy)
HP/Res — Phantom Res — (Any Ploy)
While she does have omni Sabotage on her Weapon, a B slot Sabotage is still worth it if you need to debuff a specific stat by a lot, or if it is more reliable to use Res to debuff enemies.

Edited by XRay
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Personally, I've found Dedue + Henriette + one Flayn to be enough to render Light season offense pretty much trivial. No need for Gustav or a second Flayn.

I don't have a second Close Save armor yet, but Far Save is easily the more significant of the two. I've been using my Far Save Winter Fae for Astra, alongside Spring Idunn to tank melee attacks the traditional way and protect her from effective damage.

Edited by Othin
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2 hours ago, XRay said:

I recommend trying it out in Rival Domains/Grand Conquest since it is free, as all you need to do is to befriend players with Save armors. After that, you can make a more informed decision of whether you really want it or not.

Like regular super tank teams, Save super tank teams can make Aether Raids maps much more bearable. But unlike regular super tank teams who are extremely vulnerable to being flanked and surrounded, Save super tank teams can trivialize most PvE Abyssal maps since the Save tanks can protect squishy supports close by, so it does not matter where enemy reinforcements spawn from.

If you do go for Save tanks but you do not want to spend a lot, Gustav: Majestic Love and Henriette: Overflowing Love are good to go out the box and they share the same Focus. Henriette: Overflowing Love will need Crafty Fighter for some of the more difficult maps though, but other than that, both of their default skill kits are pretty close to being optimal. If you do not mind spending a bit more, I would replace Henriette: Overflowing love with Faye: Drawn Heartstring, since she has access to Courtly Bow for damage reduction. You also want to make sure you have at least two Flayns for optimal performance to provide damage reduction.

Player Phase:
+Spd
Rauðrblade
Reposition
Moonbow — Ruptured Sky
(Any A that boosts Atk/Spd)
Desperation
Spd/Res Rein
(Any Sacred Seal that boosts Atk/Spd)

Support; Panic
+HP
Aversa's Night
(Any Assist)
Moonbow — Ruptured Sky
R Duel Flying — HP+5
(Any Chill) — Renewal (with Ardent Sacrifice/Reciprocal Aid) — (Any Ruse) (with Rally Assists) — (Any Links/Snags) (with movement Assists)
Panic Ploy
HP+5
Since she already got Sudden Panic on her Weapon and she cannot use Pulse Ties, there are no other B slot support skills that checks HP, so she is just going to be running skills that do not rely on an HP check. I think she should still run Panic Ploy though to try to hit enemies that are not grouped up.

Support; Sabotage
+Res
Aversa's Night
(Any Assist)
Moonbow — Ruptured Sky
R Duel Flying — Fort. Def/Res
(Any Sabotage)
(Any Ploy)
HP/Res — Phantom Res — (Any Ploy)
While she does have omni Sabotage on her Weapon, a B slot Sabotage is still worth it if you need to debuff a specific stat by a lot, or if it is more reliable to use Res to debuff enemies.

I'm thinking AR.  But I also want to have some fun with her build as well.

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3 hours ago, Othin said:

Personally, I've found Dedue + Henriette + one Flayn to be enough to render Light season offense pretty much trivial. No need for Gustav or a second Flayn.

I don't have a second Close Save armor yet, but Far Save is easily the more significant of the two. I've been using my Far Save Winter Fae for Astra, alongside Spring Idunn to tank melee attacks the traditional way and protect her from effective damage.

Dedue is in a separate Focus, is less effective, and is 5* locked, so the player might as well get Gustav: Majestic Love while they get Henriette: Overflowing Love.

Two Flayns would cut damage in half, so I think it is pretty important if you want to put the team through more grueling content.

3 hours ago, TheSilentChloey said:

I'm thinking AR.  But I also want to have some fun with her build as well.

In Aether Raids, I would just use her as a player phase Blade mage. You can use her as support, but Eir and Plumeria are better in that role since they are Mythic Heroes so they do not take up an additional valuable team slot, and Panic is not that useful unless the defense team utilizes buffs, and all stats -3 is less impactful than Atk-7 or Spd-7.

Aversa is better in Arena in my opinion since buffs are almost always guaranteed to be used.

As for fun builds, I am not sure what you have in mind or want. You can turn her into a Counter-Vantage Blade mage, but that is about the only other thing I can think of that has some level of effectiveness.

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6 minutes ago, XRay said:

Dedue is in a separate Focus, is less effective, and is 5* locked, so the player might as well get Gustav: Majestic Love while they get Henriette: Overflowing Love.

Two Flayns would cut damage in half, so I think it is pretty important if you want to put the team through more grueling content.

In Aether Raids, I would just use her as a player phase Blade mage. You can use her as support, but Eir and Plumeria are better in that role since they are Mythic Heroes so they do not take up an additional valuable team slot, and Panic is not that useful unless the defense team utilizes buffs, and all stats -3 is less impactful than Atk-7 or Spd-7.

Aversa is better in Arena in my opinion since buffs are almost always guaranteed to be used.

As for fun builds, I am not sure what you have in mind or want. You can turn her into a Counter-Vantage Blade mage, but that is about the only other thing I can think of that has some level of effectiveness.

Save skills (and even just Far Save alone) are insanely powerful. Flayn makes them even stronger, but I don't think it makes sense to tell people what fancy upgrades they'll need right off the bat. If they want Save units, it's fine for them to just pick up whatever is easiest to get, then see for themselves if they need anything more.

I had Dedue and Henriette for months before seriously using them because I didn't realize how much power I was already sitting on.

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5 hours ago, Othin said:

Save skills (and even just Far Save alone) are insanely powerful. Flayn makes them even stronger, but I don't think it makes sense to tell people what fancy upgrades they'll need right off the bat. If they want Save units, it's fine for them to just pick up whatever is easiest to get, then see for themselves if they need anything more.

I had Dedue and Henriette for months before seriously using them because I didn't realize how much power I was already sitting on.

Unless Dedue pity breaks them or something between now and January, I do not think it makes sense to tell them to aim for anyone else when they can save some Orbs and aim for Gustav: Majestic Love together with Henriette: Overflowing Love at the same time. I am pretty sure it is more cost effective on average to aim for two units on the same Focus than two units on separate Foci.

Flayn can also be guaranteed summon right now, and if you snipe colorless on the way there, you have a decent chance of getting two.

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1 hour ago, XRay said:

Unless Dedue pity breaks them or something between now and January, I do not think it makes sense to tell them to aim for anyone else when they can save some Orbs and aim for Gustav: Majestic Love together with Henriette: Overflowing Love at the same time. I am pretty sure it is more cost effective on average to aim for two units on the same Focus than two units on separate Foci.

Flayn can also be guaranteed summon right now, and if you snipe colorless on the way there, you have a decent chance of getting two.

I'm not saying to go out of your way to pick up Dedue. That said, he's likely to get a spark before Gustav shows up. We also may get more Save armors in the meantime, especially counting Forma.

It's true that wanting Save armors gives more reason to spark Flayn if you can, but that's different from needing one or multiple copies of her. 

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20 minutes ago, Othin said:

It's true that wanting Save armors gives more reason to spark Flayn if you can, but that's different from needing one or multiple copies of her. 

I guess technically you do not need Flayn, but not using her with Save tanks is like using Ike: Brave Mercenary without Lucina: Brave Princess. It is possible and doable, but it just would not be good enough for more challenging maps and defense teams.

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7 hours ago, XRay said:

Dedue is in a separate Focus, is less effective, and is 5* locked, so the player might as well get Gustav: Majestic Love while they get Henriette: Overflowing Love.

Two Flayns would cut damage in half, so I think it is pretty important if you want to put the team through more grueling content.

In Aether Raids, I would just use her as a player phase Blade mage. You can use her as support, but Eir and Plumeria are better in that role since they are Mythic Heroes so they do not take up an additional valuable team slot, and Panic is not that useful unless the defense team utilizes buffs, and all stats -3 is less impactful than Atk-7 or Spd-7.

Aversa is better in Arena in my opinion since buffs are almost always guaranteed to be used.

As for fun builds, I am not sure what you have in mind or want. You can turn her into a Counter-Vantage Blade mage, but that is about the only other thing I can think of that has some level of effectiveness.

I don't have Plumeria...

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14 minutes ago, XRay said:

I guess technically you do not need Flayn, but not using her with Save tanks is like using Ike: Brave Mercenary without Lucina: Brave Princess. It is possible and doable, but it just would not be good enough for more challenging maps and defense teams.

I'm using Near Save B!Hector in AR (Light Season) and I have him paired with Young Innes. So far I didn't need to use the team with both of them + Flayn, just using Innes + B!Hector (4 Mythics) and it worked every time (Vault of Heaven AR, to be specific).

I don't think you absolutely need a Flayn, and I'd argue that B!Ike needs B!Lucina more to perform well than some Save tanks need Flayn. Maybe it's just that B!Hector is busted, as I didn't have the opportunity to try out my Forma W!Fae yet. But yeah, having her can improve your odds sometimes

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1 minute ago, Rinco said:

I'm using Near Save B!Hector in AR (Light Season) and I have him paired with Young Innes. So far I didn't need to use the team with both of them + Flayn, just using Innes + B!Hector (4 Mythics) and it worked every time (Vault of Heaven AR, to be specific).

I don't think you absolutely need a Flayn, and I'd argue that B!Ike needs B!Lucina more to perform well than some Save tanks need Flayn. Maybe it's just that B!Hector is busted, as I didn't have the opportunity to try out my Forma W!Fae yet. But yeah, having her can improve your odds sometimes

My Fae has been doing fine even without damage reduction or a Close Save partner. Not perfectly, but between my other team slots and escape ladders, getting a perfect offense score for even those weeks feels trivial now.

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45 minutes ago, Othin said:

My Fae has been doing fine even without damage reduction or a Close Save partner. Not perfectly, but between my other team slots and escape ladders, getting a perfect offense score for even those weeks feels trivial now.

I got my Fae with Close Save to use on Astra with Brunnya, so I think I'll have more niche uses for her. I'm debating swapping some of my units, so I'd have Fae on Light with Y!Innes and having Hector on Astra, maybe with F!Lyon or maybe even with Brunnya. I don't see that many strong green units that they can't take somehow, and even then I could just use another team comp if that's the case. I'm still trying to figure out where to use her best.

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2 hours ago, TheSilentChloey said:

I don't have Plumeria...

I guess you can use Aversa to take her place for now. I lean a bit more towards using Res and Sabotage to debuff since stacking visible Res is harder to do for enemies; everyone gets extra HP from Mythic allies, and since she does not have particularly high HP herself, she might have trouble debuffing bulkier enemies depending on your and the defense team's set ups.

2 hours ago, Rinco said:

I'm using Near Save B!Hector in AR (Light Season) and I have him paired with Young Innes. So far I didn't need to use the team with both of them + Flayn, just using Innes + B!Hector (4 Mythics) and it worked every time (Vault of Heaven AR, to be specific).

I don't think you absolutely need a Flayn, and I'd argue that B!Ike needs B!Lucina more to perform well than some Save tanks need Flayn. Maybe it's just that B!Hector is busted, as I didn't have the opportunity to try out my Forma W!Fae yet. But yeah, having her can improve your odds sometimes

2 hours ago, Othin said:

My Fae has been doing fine even without damage reduction or a Close Save partner. Not perfectly, but between my other team slots and escape ladders, getting a perfect offense score for even those weeks feels trivial now.

I use Gustav: Majestic Love and Henriette: Overflowing Love on Light Season as my secondary super tank team, but even with three Flayns (and Dagr) on the team, they do not always win either and Henriette: Overflowing Love is usually the first to fall.

Edited by XRay
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13 minutes ago, XRay said:

I use Gustav: Majestic Love and Henriette: Overflowing Love on Light Season as my secondary super tank team, but even with three Flayns (and Dagr) on the team, they do not always win either and Henriette: Overflowing Love is usually the first to fall.

Maybe three Flayns isn't the best approach, then. Especially since that means throwing away a ton of points. With just one mythic it's only barely possible to hit T38, right?

Personally I prefer flexible strategies to all-in ones - I can reduce the pressure on Henriette with tactics like using Mila to shut down enemy dancers, or having a supporting ally run in to take out a troublesome foe and then moving Henriette/Dedue to cover them from enemy phase attacks.

Also that's not to say that I win every match, but enough of them that it works out to a perfect score after accounting for the ladders.

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Also running 3 Flayns means runnin less Mythics. Their stat bonuses are huge to tank strategies, since they also give bonus HP. I'm always running 3-4 Mythics in every team and I'd never run less than 3.

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33 minutes ago, Othin said:

Maybe three Flayns isn't the best approach, then. Especially since that means throwing away a ton of points. With just one mythic it's only barely possible to hit T38, right?

Personally I prefer flexible strategies to all-in ones - I can reduce the pressure on Henriette with tactics like using Mila to shut down enemy dancers, or having a supporting ally run in to take out a troublesome foe and then moving Henriette/Dedue to cover them from enemy phase attacks.

Also that's not to say that I win every match, but enough of them that it works out to a perfect score after accounting for the ladders.

29 minutes ago, Rinco said:

Also running 3 Flayns means runnin less Mythics. Their stat bonuses are huge to tank strategies, since they also give bonus HP. I'm always running 3-4 Mythics in every team and I'd never run less than 3.

I tried tanking my own Light Season defense team with two Flayns, but the only way my Henriette: Overflowing Love can survive the initial onslaught of nukes is if she gets three stacks of Flayn. I could beat my own defense team using my Galeforce team, but it involves knowing which Traps are real and it took me a lot of attempts too.

Running one Mythic is not ideal, but if a defense team is already making me second guess my ability to win, I rather take less points to ensure I win.

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30 minutes ago, XRay said:

I tried tanking my own Light Season defense team with two Flayns, but the only way my Henriette: Overflowing Love can survive the initial onslaught of nukes is if she gets three stacks of Flayn. I could beat my own defense team using my Galeforce team, but it involves knowing which Traps are real and it took me a lot of attempts too.

Running one Mythic is not ideal, but if a defense team is already making me second guess my ability to win, I rather take less points to ensure I win.

Your defense team is pretty extreme. Do you have two-mythic teams for other situations?

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27 minutes ago, XRay said:

I tried tanking my own Light Season defense team with two Flayns, but the only way my Henriette: Overflowing Love can survive the initial onslaught of nukes is if she gets three stacks of Flayn. I could beat my own defense team using my Galeforce team, but it involves knowing which Traps are real and it took me a lot of attempts too.

Running one Mythic is not ideal, but if a defense team is already making me second guess my ability to win, I rather take less points to ensure I win.

In that case, I think you might be better off running 2 Mythic Heroes and 2 ranged tanks, one with Far Save and one without. Going from 1 Mythic Hero to 2 Mythic Heroes increases your score by 20 plus the number of merges on the second Mythic Hero, but losing your first unit costs you only 10 points in the Vault of Heaven and no points otherwise if you have a Mythic bonus unit, assuming I remember the scoring rules correctly.

You can try putting the tank without Far Save in front and use the Far Save tank as a sacrifice to soak up damage for the other tank, though being able to actually cover with Flayn will depend on how much space the map gives you.

Running 2 Mythic Heroes also gives you at the minimum an additional +5 HP, and you can get an additional +5 Res if Dagr, Eir, or Ashera is a bonus unit.

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