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It's time for another episode of Ice Dragon Is Indecisive as All Get Out.

I'm trying to decide on the merge base for my +10 Linde. My choices are [+Spd, -Def] and [+Spd, -Res]. Her current build is (Aura, Ardent Sacrifice, Life and Death 3, Desperation 3, Fortify Res 3).

-Def gives her 39 HP, 10 Def, and 26 Res, which gives her 49 physical bulk against blue and colorless and 61 physical bulk against red. That's enough to tank any red Distant Counter user, but she cannot safely attack any blue or colorless that can counterattack unless it dies in one hit or she has Desperation up.

65 magic bulk against blue and colorless and 82 magic bulk against red means she doesn't really care about magic counterattacks except from buffed Blarblade (Linde with Blarblade has 65 Atk with a +4 Atk buff and 66 Atk with +3/3/0/0).

-Res gives her 39 HP, 13 Def, and 22 Res, which gives her 52 physical bulk against blue and colorless and 65 physical bulk against red. Brave Bow Bride Cordelia has 54 Atk, and Distant Counter Ephraim has 55 or 58 Atk, so that's still not going to get her anywhere against them.

61 magic bulk against blue and colorless and 76 magic bulk against red gives her worse match-ups against Blarblade, but that's about it. Blarblade Bride Caeda has 60 Atk with +3/3/0/0.

I'm pretty sure in the end it really doesn't matter, but my OCD is really getting the better of me.

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1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's time for another episode of Ice Dragon Is Indecisive as All Get Out.

I'm trying to decide on the merge base for my +10 Linde. My choices are [+Spd, -Def] and [+Spd, -Res]. Her current build is (Aura, Ardent Sacrifice, Life and Death 3, Desperation 3, Fortify Res 3).

-Def gives her 39 HP, 10 Def, and 26 Res, which gives her 49 physical bulk against blue and colorless and 61 physical bulk against red. That's enough to tank any red Distant Counter user, but she cannot safely attack any blue or colorless that can counterattack unless it dies in one hit or she has Desperation up.

65 magic bulk against blue and colorless and 82 magic bulk against red means she doesn't really care about magic counterattacks except from buffed Blarblade (Linde with Blarblade has 65 Atk with a +4 Atk buff and 66 Atk with +3/3/0/0).

-Res gives her 39 HP, 13 Def, and 22 Res, which gives her 52 physical bulk against blue and colorless and 65 physical bulk against red. Brave Bow Bride Cordelia has 54 Atk, and Distant Counter Ephraim has 55 or 58 Atk, so that's still not going to get her anywhere against them.

61 magic bulk against blue and colorless and 76 magic bulk against red gives her worse match-ups against Blarblade, but that's about it. Blarblade Bride Caeda has 60 Atk with +3/3/0/0.

I'm pretty sure in the end it really doesn't matter, but my OCD is really getting the better of me.

As the owner of a -Res Linde... honestly, I'd go defence. I'd feel a lot safer with Linde on the receiving end of magic attacks (also more common), and as you say, the chief physical threats a mage is going to encounter can be avoided.

Then again, I run Blarblade/Fury.

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2 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

It's time for another episode of Ice Dragon Is Indecisive as All Get Out.

I'm trying to decide on the merge base for my +10 Linde. My choices are [+Spd, -Def] and [+Spd, -Res]. Her current build is (Aura, Ardent Sacrifice, Life and Death 3, Desperation 3, Fortify Res 3).

-Def gives her 39 HP, 10 Def, and 26 Res, which gives her 49 physical bulk against blue and colorless and 61 physical bulk against red. That's enough to tank any red Distant Counter user, but she cannot safely attack any blue or colorless that can counterattack unless it dies in one hit or she has Desperation up.

65 magic bulk against blue and colorless and 82 magic bulk against red means she doesn't really care about magic counterattacks except from buffed Blarblade (Linde with Blarblade has 65 Atk with a +4 Atk buff and 66 Atk with +3/3/0/0).

-Res gives her 39 HP, 13 Def, and 22 Res, which gives her 52 physical bulk against blue and colorless and 65 physical bulk against red. Brave Bow Bride Cordelia has 54 Atk, and Distant Counter Ephraim has 55 or 58 Atk, so that's still not going to get her anywhere against them.

61 magic bulk against blue and colorless and 76 magic bulk against red gives her worse match-ups against Blarblade, but that's about it. Blarblade Bride Caeda has 60 Atk with +3/3/0/0.

I'm pretty sure in the end it really doesn't matter, but my OCD is really getting the better of me.

I'd personally go with -Def, since she shouldn't be taking physical hits anyway. The only reason not to is distant counter red units, but aparently those aren't an issue anyway, so you're fine. Then again, I'm not to familiar with the +10 meta, so maybe I'm missing something.

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8 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

I'd personally go with -Def, since she shouldn't be taking physical hits anyway. The only reason not to is distant counter red units, but aparently those aren't an issue anyway, so you're fine. Then again, I'm not to familiar with the +10 meta, so maybe I'm missing something.

The extremely high +10 meta (736-740) is all armored units with sets designed to demolish armor teams (with Distant Counter on maybe half of the units for good measure).

The slightly less high +10 meta (~728-734) is all of the bullshit you can possibly imagine, namely double Firesweep Bride Cordelia with a dancer, Flier Emblem, buff and Reposition Nino until the opponent is dead, random Hector and Effie lagging behind for the lulz, Dragon Emblem, Distant Counter and Close Counter on really obnoxious units (ever seen a Close Counter Julia while running a full dragon team?), and whatnot. Fuck that score range.

A bit lower than that is all of the usual bullshit you find elsewhere, but at +10 and with no Grand Hero Battle units.

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20 minutes ago, Bartozio said:

I'd personally go with -Def, since she shouldn't be taking physical hits anyway. The only reason not to is distant counter red units, but aparently those aren't an issue anyway, so you're fine. Then again, I'm not to familiar with the +10 meta, so maybe I'm missing something.

In my past 27 matches (this arena season), I've seen 13 teams with a DC red (including Ryoma). 12 if you don't count Lightning Breath+ Tiki, which I guess you really shouldn't since she doesn't hit Def...but it's still a reasonably common occurrence.

Edit: Forgot to mention the teams I see are usually all or mostly +10s...which is kinda important, given the context of the discussion =P .

Edit 2: I'm in that last bracket of Ice Dragon's +10 meta description.

Edited by LordFrigid
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@Ice Dragon I'm actually thinking +Spd -Res, since buffed -Blade attacks can still make quick work of Linde even without the bane. Are mages still less common in the higher tiers even with arena scoring adjustments? Because if physical Distant Counter units are ones she is more likely to run into, with a Spur Def buff from the seal she can easily take a counter from Bride Cordelia or neutral Ephraim and go into Desperation range more quickly.

She's also less likely to oneshot these threats outright since she has Aura over -Blade, though like you said the difference between the two banes at the end of the day is marginal.

Edited by MrSmokestack
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6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

The extremely high +10 meta (736-740) is all armored units with sets designed to demolish armor teams (with Distant Counter on maybe half of the units for good measure).

The slightly less high +10 meta (~728-734) is all of the bullshit you can possibly imagine, namely double Firesweep Bride Cordelia with a dancer, Flier Emblem, buff and Reposition Nino until the opponent is dead, random Hector and Effie lagging behind for the lulz, Dragon Emblem, Distant Counter and Close Counter on really obnoxious units (ever seen a Close Counter Julia while running a full dragon team?), and whatnot. Fuck that score range.

A bit lower than that is all of the usual bullshit you find elsewhere, but at +10 and with no Grand Hero Battle units.

That sounds.... fun.

6 minutes ago, LordFrigid said:

In my past 27 matches (this arena season), I've seen 13 teams with a DC red (including Ryoma). 12 if you don't count Lightning Breath+ Tiki, which I guess you really shouldn't since she doesn't hit Def...but it's still a reasonably common occurrence.

I didn't mean to say DC reds aren't common, but Ice said she still survives them with -Def. And honestly, she shouldn't have to take a hit from more then one DC red unit since she can just kill them with desperation after taking one hit.

I did the calculations myself though, and while she barely lives against Ryoma, she dies to +atk fury Ike. Not sure how often people use him over Ryoma though.

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5 minutes ago, LordFrigid said:

In my past 27 matches (this arena season), I've seen 13 teams with a DC red (including Ryoma). 12 if you don't count Lightning Breath+ Tiki, which I guess you really shouldn't since she doesn't hit Def...but it's still a reasonably common occurrence.

The main reason it's not an issue is because most red Distant Counter units don't hit 61 Atk. Ike gets there exactly with +Atk and Fury 3. Ryoma is 1 Atk short unbuffed with the same set, but I'm pretty sure +Spd is more common.

Ike hits 65 Atk with +Atk, Fury 3, and a +4 Atk buff. Ryoma falls short unless he's running Life and Death, which he almost never does. So I guess it's not as irrelevant as I first thought. Rally Atk/Spd is also fairly common at the top of the Arena. Hm...

 

2 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

@Ice Dragon I'm actually thinking +Spd -Res, since buffed -Blade attacks can still make quick work of Linde even without the bane. Are mages still less common in the higher tiers even with arena scoring adjustments? Because if physical Distant Counter units are ones she is more likely to run into, with a Spur Def buff from the seal she can easily take a counter from Bride Cordelia or neutral Ephraim and go into Desperation range more quickly.

She's also less likely to oneshot these threats outright since she has Aura over -Blade, though like you said the difference between the two banes at the end of the day is marginal.

I don't think I've run into a team with more than 1 magic user on it in a while (not counting dragons).

I'm likely to drop Aura for Blarblade+ eventually (need another Odin and more feathers since I haven't pulled blue since the very start of the last banner, and my feather stock is low after completing my Dragon Emblem team and Peri) since Aura's innate Breath of Life 2 is counter-productive on Desperation teams.

 

Tempest is also a possible use case, but Desperation kind of trivializes it, so I don't think the nature makes much difference at all there.

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1 minute ago, Bartozio said:

I didn't mean to say DC reds aren't common, but Ice said she still survives them with -Def. And honestly, she shouldn't have to take a hit from more then one DC red unit since she can just kill them with desperation after taking one hit.

I did the calculations myself though, and while she barely lives against Ryoma, she dies to +atk fury Ike. Not sure how often people use him over Ryoma though.

Yipes...misread on my part, sorry about that.

1 minute ago, Ice Dragon said:

The main reason it's not an issue is because most red Distant Counter units don't hit 61 Atk. Ike gets there exactly with +Atk and Fury 3. Ryoma is 1 Atk short unbuffed with the same set, but I'm pretty sure +Spd is more common.

Ike hits 65 Atk with +Atk, Fury 3, and a +4 Atk buff. Ryoma falls short unless he's running Life and Death, which he almost never does. So I guess it's not as irrelevant as I first thought. Rally Atk/Spd is also fairly common at the top of the Arena. Hm...

I don't usually look super hard at boon/bane, but of the ones I've taken note of, I've seen one +Atk/Fury Ryoma, with the rest of them being +Spd/Fury, for what that's worth.

Do Ikes at the top carry Fury? I've seen maybe one or two, with the rest running Heavy Blade...still though, just the fact that they can and do exist...

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17 minutes ago, LordFrigid said:

Do Ikes at the top carry Fury? I've seen maybe one or two, with the rest running Heavy Blade...still though, just the fact that they can and do exist...

I honestly don't know because any recent Ike I've run into just walks into Nowi and dies (or my Hinoka walks into him and he dies).

 

Assuming I do switch to Blarblade at some time, maximum magic bulk Ryoma (+HP/Res, Distant Def 3) has 79 magic bulk unbuffed. Maximum magic bulk Ike has 77 magic bulk. Neutral HP/Res with Fury 3 decreases that by 6.

Linde with Blarblade+ needs +9 Atk (so +3/3/0/0) to one-hit kill the bulkiest unbuffed Ryoma possible, which is entirely doable (once Rally Atk/Spd gets added to someone other than Bride Cordelia because like hell I'm going to use a Bride Cordelia for that) (or with my Tharja's Hone Spd 3 and someone else's Rally Atk). Linde with Aura and +3 Atk one-hit kills neutral HP/Res Ryoma with Fury 3.

 

Ugh, decisions.

 

I should totally give all of my dragons other than Ninian every Rally in the game.

 

EDIT: Alternatively, I can merge up my current +9 [+Spd, -Def] to +10 and just start working on a second [+Spd, -Res] Linde, who I'd be able to get to +3.

Edited by Ice Dragon
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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

Linde with Blarblade+ needs +9 Atk (so +3/3/0/0) to one-hit kill the bulkiest unbuffed Ryoma possible, which is entirely doable (once Rally Atk/Spd gets added to someone other than Bride Cordelia because like hell I'm going to use a Bride Cordelia for that) (or with my Tharja's Hone Spd 3 and someone else's Rally Atk). Linde with Aura and +3 Atk one-hit kills neutral HP/Res Ryoma with Fury 3.

+4/0/0/2 also works, assuming you don't need the Sacred Seal slot of whoever's running Hone/Rally Attack for something other than Fortify Res 1.

Anyways, I ran some stuff (I don't have Clarisse or the Summer folk in yet...or Marth: Enigmatic Blade, but that's just Lucina so...). The constraints on the enemies are: 1) not green, 2) not wielding a staff or dagger, and 3) have Distant Counter inherited when if they need to, but otherwise have no inheritance. I'll spoiler it below if you want to look at it, but tbh I just ran it to find the "matchups of interest" and then did hand-calcs on those.

Some things I noticed:

  • With Aura and an Atk buff, Linde will OHKO unbuffed Fury Ike, even if he has HP +3. It's still at least a little risky though, since Res buffs exist (the KO if he has HP +3 is exact).
  • The Bride Cordelia matchup is...unfortunate. -Res Linde will survive with 1 HP, but then the common Brave/Life and Death inheritance is +1 Atk over Cordelia's default kit, so Linde's out of commission even before considering Cordelia's nature or buffs. Aura Linde also can't OHKO Life and Death Cordelia with 100% reliability, she's 2 damage short, so even an Atk buff wouldn't overcome +3 HP/Res. I don't know how much consideration you want to give to HP +3 Seal or +3-4 Res buffed Cordelia, but it might be out there...somewhere. She also can't double Firesweep/Life and Death Cordelia with 100% reliability, since Cordelia hits 44 Spd at neutral with that.
  • +Atk Rauðrblade+ Leo with full cav buffs overkills -Def Linde by 3 HP if he's running Death Blow (idk what sorts of A Passives Leo runs), or 4 HP with Death Blow and the Atk +1 seal...so that kinda sucks. -Res Linde would then get overkilled by 7/8 HP. I guess the point I'm raising there is that Rauðrblade can KO her, but -Def has options for preventing that (well...I say "options", but I think a 2+ Res buff and HP +3 seal is the only one). As with Cordelia, I'm not sure how much weight you want to give to full cav buffs Leo. I personally still have a heavy EP-counter element in my playstyle, so I just figured I'd mention it. The other Rauðrblade+ mages hit, at maximum, 1 less effective Atk than Leo, but I strongly doubt any infantry team is ever achieving max buffs.

As you noted, Blárblade+ Linde has minimal setup OHKOs on the concerning Reds. She also has the Cordelia OHKO pretty easily. If I were in your position, and assuming an eventual transition to Blárblade+, I'd probably use the +Spd/-Def Linde, because

  1. Blárblade+ does give her those OHKOs on the PP.
  2. The concerning physical folk are not units you want her to encounter on the EP.
  3. I really value EP potential, especially turn 1 EP potential (which is when, say, max cav buffs -blade Leo is most likely to happen). -Res removing her 100% survivability options against Rauðrblade+ mages is a sticking point for me. Whether it is for you, I really couldn't say.

Hope that was useful, at least a little bit. I might try giving the lists another once-over later to see if I missed anything glaring.

~

The matchup lists I was looking at:

+Spd/-Res Linde vs neutral units that 1) are not green, 2) are not wielding a staff or dagger, and 3) have Distant Counter inherited when if they need to, but otherwise have no inheritance.

Spoiler
ORKOs (81)
Abel: 58 total dmg dealt (120%), 32 total dmg taken (82%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Alfonse: 86 total dmg dealt (182%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 29 Spd)
Alm: 86 total dmg dealt (175%), 30 total dmg taken (76%). (48 Spd vs 34 Spd)
Athena: 41 total dmg dealt (102%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 42 Spd)
Azura: 52 total dmg dealt (130%), 34 total dmg taken (87%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)
Caeda: 62 total dmg dealt (155%), 20 total dmg taken (51%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Caeda (Talys' Bride): 44 total dmg dealt (118%), 25 total dmg taken (64%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Cain: 88 total dmg dealt (191%), 23 total dmg taken (58%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Catria: 58 total dmg dealt (134%), 33 total dmg taken (84%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Celica: 74 total dmg dealt (172%), 22 total dmg taken (56%). (48 Spd vs 42 Spd)
Chrom: 96 total dmg dealt (188%), 33 total dmg taken (84%). (48 Spd vs 29 Spd)
Clair: 42 total dmg dealt (102%), 32 total dmg taken (82%). (48 Spd vs 40 Spd)
Cordelia: 58 total dmg dealt (131%), 34 total dmg taken (87%). (48 Spd vs 34 Spd)
Cordelia (Perfect Bride): 64 total dmg dealt (160%), 38 total dmg taken (97%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Corrin (F): 66 total dmg dealt (146%), 22 total dmg taken (56%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Corrin (M): 82 total dmg dealt (178%), 29 total dmg taken (74%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)
Donnel: 62 total dmg dealt (119%), 34 total dmg taken (87%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Draug: 94 total dmg dealt (174%), 21 total dmg taken (53%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Eirika: 74 total dmg dealt (160%), 24 total dmg taken (61%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Eldigan: 92 total dmg dealt (187%), 29 total dmg taken (74%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Eliwood: 57 total dmg dealt (132%), 28 total dmg taken (71%). (48 Spd vs 34 Spd)
Est: 44 total dmg dealt (110%), 38 total dmg taken (97%). (48 Spd vs 34 Spd)
Faye: 46 total dmg dealt (100%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 29 Spd)
Fir: 68 total dmg dealt (151%), 19 total dmg taken (48%). (48 Spd vs 40 Spd)
Gordin: 74 total dmg dealt (157%), 32 total dmg taken (82%). (48 Spd vs 24 Spd)
Hana: 78 total dmg dealt (190%), 28 total dmg taken (71%). (48 Spd vs 40 Spd)
Henry: 80 total dmg dealt (163%), 9 total dmg taken (23%). (48 Spd vs 26 Spd)
Hinata: 59 total dmg dealt (115%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Hinoka: 60 total dmg dealt (133%), 34 total dmg taken (87%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Ike: 47 total dmg dealt (102%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 35 Spd)
Jeorge: 64 total dmg dealt (156%), 37 total dmg taken (94%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)
Karel: 90 total dmg dealt (176%), 25 total dmg taken (64%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Katarina: 66 total dmg dealt (173%), 15 total dmg taken (38%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Klein: 60 total dmg dealt (136%), 29 total dmg taken (74%). (48 Spd vs 32 Spd)
Laslow: 86 total dmg dealt (179%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 30 Spd)
Leo: 70 total dmg dealt (162%), 16 total dmg taken (41%). (48 Spd vs 26 Spd)
Lilina: 68 total dmg dealt (174%), 24 total dmg taken (61%). (48 Spd vs 29 Spd)
Linde: 54 total dmg dealt (138%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 43 Spd)
Lloyd: 70 total dmg dealt (155%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Lon'qu: 86 total dmg dealt (175%), 23 total dmg taken (58%). (48 Spd vs 43 Spd)
Lucina: 92 total dmg dealt (195%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 40 Spd)
Lucina (Spr. Exalt): 58 total dmg dealt (148%), 22 total dmg taken (56%). (48 Spd vs 40 Spd)
Lukas: 63 total dmg dealt (128%), 37 total dmg taken (94%). (48 Spd vs 26 Spd)
Luke: 90 total dmg dealt (191%), 24 total dmg taken (61%). (48 Spd vs 27 Spd)
Lyn: 72 total dmg dealt (175%), 26 total dmg taken (66%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Mae: 48 total dmg dealt (123%), 28 total dmg taken (71%). (48 Spd vs 35 Spd)
Marth: 84 total dmg dealt (186%), 28 total dmg taken (71%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Navarre: 82 total dmg dealt (178%), 24 total dmg taken (61%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Ninian: 54 total dmg dealt (117%), 19 total dmg taken (48%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)
Nowi: 54 total dmg dealt (110%), 27 total dmg taken (69%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Oboro: 60 total dmg dealt (136%), 35 total dmg taken (89%). (48 Spd vs 30 Spd)
Odin: 58 total dmg dealt (123%), 17 total dmg taken (43%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)
Ogma: 52 total dmg dealt (101%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 33 Spd)
Olivia: 78 total dmg dealt (195%), 25 total dmg taken (64%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)
Olwen: 48 total dmg dealt (126%), 17 total dmg taken (43%). (48 Spd vs 33 Spd)
Palla: 51 total dmg dealt (110%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 35 Spd)
Peri: 48 total dmg dealt (123%), 35 total dmg taken (89%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)
Raigh: 72 total dmg dealt (160%), 15 total dmg taken (38%). (48 Spd vs 33 Spd)
Rebecca: 54 total dmg dealt (131%), 33 total dmg taken (84%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Reinhardt: 58 total dmg dealt (138%), 23 total dmg taken (58%). (48 Spd vs 22 Spd)
Robin (M): 64 total dmg dealt (145%), 22 total dmg taken (56%). (48 Spd vs 33 Spd)
Roderick: 60 total dmg dealt (136%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Roy: 70 total dmg dealt (145%), 27 total dmg taken (69%). (48 Spd vs 35 Spd)
Ryoma: 88 total dmg dealt (195%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Sanaki: 43 total dmg dealt (116%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 30 Spd)
Selena: 74 total dmg dealt (180%), 20 total dmg taken (51%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Seliph: 86 total dmg dealt (153%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Setsuna: 62 total dmg dealt (134%), 30 total dmg taken (76%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Shanna: 50 total dmg dealt (116%), 32 total dmg taken (82%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Sophia: 72 total dmg dealt (163%), 18 total dmg taken (46%). (48 Spd vs 23 Spd)
Stahl: 55 total dmg dealt (112%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 30 Spd)
Subaki: 64 total dmg dealt (145%), 28 total dmg taken (71%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Sully: 52 total dmg dealt (113%), 29 total dmg taken (74%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Takumi: 72 total dmg dealt (163%), 37 total dmg taken (94%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)
Tharja: 45 total dmg dealt (104%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Tiki (FE13): 82 total dmg dealt (186%), 18 total dmg taken (46%). (48 Spd vs 27 Spd)
Tiki (Young): 72 total dmg dealt (160%), 18 total dmg taken (46%). (48 Spd vs 34 Spd)
Ursula: 48 total dmg dealt (123%), 21 total dmg taken (53%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)
Virion: 82 total dmg dealt (164%), 35 total dmg taken (89%). (48 Spd vs 35 Spd)
Xander (Paragon Knight): 48 total dmg dealt (100%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Xander (Spr. Prince): 56 total dmg dealt (127%), 29 total dmg taken (74%). (48 Spd vs 32 Spd)

No KO (5)
Florina: 40 total dmg dealt (86%), 32 total dmg taken (82%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Gwendolyn: 52 total dmg dealt (98%), 32 total dmg taken (82%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Jagen: 38 total dmg dealt (92%), 33 total dmg taken (84%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Niles: 40 total dmg dealt (97%), 25 total dmg taken (64%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Zephiel: 41 total dmg dealt (69%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 20 Spd)

Losses (5)
Camus: 37 total dmg dealt (80%), 39 total dmg taken (100%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)
Charlotte (Money Maiden): 35 total dmg dealt (70%), 41 total dmg taken (105%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)
Effie: 31 total dmg dealt (57%), 46 total dmg taken (117%). (48 Spd vs 26 Spd)
Ephraim: 34 total dmg dealt (69%), 42 total dmg taken (107%). (48 Spd vs 29 Spd)
Sharena: 32 total dmg dealt (68%), 39 total dmg taken (100%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)

+Spd/-Def Linde against the same set of opponents:

Spoiler

ORKOs (76)

Abel: 58 total dmg dealt (120%), 35 total dmg taken (89%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Alfonse: 86 total dmg dealt (182%), 34 total dmg taken (87%). (48 Spd vs 29 Spd)
Alm: 86 total dmg dealt (175%), 33 total dmg taken (84%). (48 Spd vs 34 Spd)
Athena: 41 total dmg dealt (102%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 42 Spd)
Azura: 52 total dmg dealt (130%), 37 total dmg taken (94%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)
Caeda: 62 total dmg dealt (155%), 23 total dmg taken (58%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Caeda (Talys' Bride): 44 total dmg dealt (118%), 21 total dmg taken (53%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Cain: 88 total dmg dealt (191%), 26 total dmg taken (66%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Catria: 58 total dmg dealt (134%), 36 total dmg taken (92%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Celica: 74 total dmg dealt (172%), 18 total dmg taken (46%). (48 Spd vs 42 Spd)
Chrom: 96 total dmg dealt (188%), 36 total dmg taken (92%). (48 Spd vs 29 Spd)
Clair: 42 total dmg dealt (102%), 35 total dmg taken (89%). (48 Spd vs 40 Spd)
Cordelia: 58 total dmg dealt (131%), 37 total dmg taken (94%). (48 Spd vs 34 Spd)
Corrin (F): 66 total dmg dealt (146%), 18 total dmg taken (46%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Corrin (M): 82 total dmg dealt (178%), 32 total dmg taken (82%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)
Donnel: 62 total dmg dealt (119%), 37 total dmg taken (94%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Draug: 94 total dmg dealt (174%), 24 total dmg taken (61%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Eirika: 74 total dmg dealt (160%), 27 total dmg taken (69%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Eldigan: 92 total dmg dealt (187%), 32 total dmg taken (82%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Eliwood: 57 total dmg dealt (132%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 34 Spd)
Faye: 46 total dmg dealt (100%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 29 Spd)
Fir: 68 total dmg dealt (151%), 22 total dmg taken (56%). (48 Spd vs 40 Spd)
Gordin: 74 total dmg dealt (157%), 35 total dmg taken (89%). (48 Spd vs 24 Spd)
Hana: 78 total dmg dealt (190%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 40 Spd)
Henry: 80 total dmg dealt (163%), 5 total dmg taken (12%). (48 Spd vs 26 Spd)
Hinata: 59 total dmg dealt (115%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Hinoka: 60 total dmg dealt (133%), 37 total dmg taken (94%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Ike: 47 total dmg dealt (102%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 35 Spd)
Karel: 90 total dmg dealt (176%), 28 total dmg taken (71%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Katarina: 66 total dmg dealt (173%), 11 total dmg taken (28%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Klein: 60 total dmg dealt (136%), 32 total dmg taken (82%). (48 Spd vs 32 Spd)
Laslow: 86 total dmg dealt (179%), 34 total dmg taken (87%). (48 Spd vs 30 Spd)
Leo: 70 total dmg dealt (162%), 12 total dmg taken (30%). (48 Spd vs 26 Spd)
Lilina: 68 total dmg dealt (174%), 20 total dmg taken (51%). (48 Spd vs 29 Spd)
Linde: 54 total dmg dealt (138%), 27 total dmg taken (69%). (48 Spd vs 43 Spd)
Lloyd: 70 total dmg dealt (155%), 34 total dmg taken (87%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Lon'qu: 86 total dmg dealt (175%), 26 total dmg taken (66%). (48 Spd vs 43 Spd)
Lucina: 92 total dmg dealt (195%), 34 total dmg taken (87%). (48 Spd vs 40 Spd)
Lucina (Spr. Exalt): 58 total dmg dealt (148%), 18 total dmg taken (46%). (48 Spd vs 40 Spd)
Luke: 90 total dmg dealt (191%), 27 total dmg taken (69%). (48 Spd vs 27 Spd)
Lyn: 72 total dmg dealt (175%), 29 total dmg taken (74%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Mae: 48 total dmg dealt (123%), 24 total dmg taken (61%). (48 Spd vs 35 Spd)
Marth: 84 total dmg dealt (186%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Navarre: 82 total dmg dealt (178%), 27 total dmg taken (69%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Ninian: 54 total dmg dealt (117%), 15 total dmg taken (38%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)
Nowi: 54 total dmg dealt (110%), 23 total dmg taken (58%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Oboro: 60 total dmg dealt (136%), 38 total dmg taken (97%). (48 Spd vs 30 Spd)
Odin: 58 total dmg dealt (123%), 13 total dmg taken (33%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)
Ogma: 52 total dmg dealt (101%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 33 Spd)
Olivia: 78 total dmg dealt (195%), 28 total dmg taken (71%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)
Olwen: 48 total dmg dealt (126%), 13 total dmg taken (33%). (48 Spd vs 33 Spd)
Palla: 51 total dmg dealt (110%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 35 Spd)
Peri: 48 total dmg dealt (123%), 38 total dmg taken (97%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)
Raigh: 72 total dmg dealt (160%), 11 total dmg taken (28%). (48 Spd vs 33 Spd)
Rebecca: 54 total dmg dealt (131%), 36 total dmg taken (92%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Reinhardt: 58 total dmg dealt (138%), 19 total dmg taken (48%). (48 Spd vs 22 Spd)
Robin (M): 64 total dmg dealt (145%), 18 total dmg taken (46%). (48 Spd vs 33 Spd)
Roderick: 60 total dmg dealt (136%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Roy: 70 total dmg dealt (145%), 30 total dmg taken (76%). (48 Spd vs 35 Spd)
Ryoma: 88 total dmg dealt (195%), 34 total dmg taken (87%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Sanaki: 43 total dmg dealt (116%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 30 Spd)
Selena: 74 total dmg dealt (180%), 23 total dmg taken (58%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Seliph: 86 total dmg dealt (153%), 34 total dmg taken (87%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Setsuna: 62 total dmg dealt (134%), 33 total dmg taken (84%). (48 Spd vs 41 Spd)
Shanna: 50 total dmg dealt (116%), 35 total dmg taken (89%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Sophia: 72 total dmg dealt (163%), 14 total dmg taken (35%). (48 Spd vs 23 Spd)
Stahl: 55 total dmg dealt (112%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 30 Spd)
Subaki: 64 total dmg dealt (145%), 31 total dmg taken (79%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Sully: 52 total dmg dealt (113%), 32 total dmg taken (82%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Tharja: 45 total dmg dealt (104%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Tiki (FE13): 82 total dmg dealt (186%), 14 total dmg taken (35%). (48 Spd vs 27 Spd)
Tiki (Young): 72 total dmg dealt (160%), 14 total dmg taken (35%). (48 Spd vs 34 Spd)
Ursula: 48 total dmg dealt (123%), 17 total dmg taken (43%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)
Virion: 82 total dmg dealt (164%), 38 total dmg taken (97%). (48 Spd vs 35 Spd)
Xander (Paragon Knight): 48 total dmg dealt (100%), 0 total dmg taken (0%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Xander (Spr. Prince): 56 total dmg dealt (127%), 32 total dmg taken (82%). (48 Spd vs 32 Spd)


No KO (5)

 

Florina: 40 total dmg dealt (86%), 35 total dmg taken (89%). (48 Spd vs 31 Spd)
Gwendolyn: 52 total dmg dealt (98%), 35 total dmg taken (89%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Jagen: 38 total dmg dealt (92%), 36 total dmg taken (92%). (48 Spd vs 28 Spd)
Niles: 40 total dmg dealt (97%), 28 total dmg taken (71%). (48 Spd vs 38 Spd)
Zephiel: 41 total dmg dealt (69%), 34 total dmg taken (87%). (48 Spd vs 20 Spd)

Losses (10)

 

Camus: 37 total dmg dealt (80%), 42 total dmg taken (107%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)
Charlotte (Money Maiden): 35 total dmg dealt (70%), 44 total dmg taken (112%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)
Cordelia (Perfect Bride): 32 total dmg dealt (80%), 41 total dmg taken (105%). (48 Spd vs 39 Spd)
Effie: 31 total dmg dealt (57%), 49 total dmg taken (125%). (48 Spd vs 26 Spd)
Ephraim: 34 total dmg dealt (69%), 45 total dmg taken (115%). (48 Spd vs 29 Spd)
Est: 22 total dmg dealt (55%), 41 total dmg taken (105%). (48 Spd vs 34 Spd)
Jeorge: 32 total dmg dealt (78%), 40 total dmg taken (102%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)
Lukas: 37 total dmg dealt (75%), 40 total dmg taken (102%). (48 Spd vs 26 Spd)
Sharena: 32 total dmg dealt (68%), 42 total dmg taken (107%). (48 Spd vs 36 Spd)
Takumi: 36 total dmg dealt (81%), 40 total dmg taken (102%). (48 Spd vs 37 Spd)

 

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@Ice DragonPretty sure they'll hate you for having a +10 Linde no matter what you do. :p

I like maximizing on their defensive niche.  Right now, -def or -res may be better depending on what specific units are available, but for such an investment, I think long term.  Linde has horrible res, so +ing her res so she can deal with a few units now could be a problem later when they get weaved out of the meta in favor of new units with higher attack.  On the other hand, a +res Linde would let her tank every mage just fine no matter what the future holds.  

+def would make for a better-rounded unit but considering she'll always have 3 other units (unless Voting Gauntlet), I would prefer having another unit that capitalizes on defense and have the two synergize with one another.

At least, that's what I do unless they have over ~23 base in both stats.  Like I said, they'll hate her anyways xD

 

 

edit:  +atk/-hp Gaius or +spd/-hp gaius?  Regular Gaius, not Summer.  I think he has the potential to be at Kagero's level.  He would have significantly higher speed either way and with a +atk nature would be pretty close to Kagero's attack.  With +spd, however, he should double most everyone.  The only down side is he can't bait mages like Kagero can.

Edited by Lushen
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6 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

As you noted, Blárblade+ Linde has minimal setup OHKOs on the concerning Reds. She also has the Cordelia OHKO pretty easily. If I were in your position, and assuming an eventual transition to Blárblade+, I'd probably use the +Spd/-Def Linde, because

  1. Blárblade+ does give her those OHKOs on the PP.
  2. The concerning physical folk are not units you want her to encounter on the EP.
  3. I really value EP potential, especially turn 1 EP potential (which is when, say, max cav buffs -blade Leo is most likely to happen). -Res removing her 100% survivability options against Rauðrblade+ mages is a sticking point for me. Whether it is for you, I really couldn't say.

ご苦労様でした。ありがとうございました。 Thanks for the hard work!

It looks like I'll stick with the [+Spd, -Def] since Blarblade+ will ensure that any red that can kill her on the counterattack is already dead. The calcs with Leo are actually of interest to me since I do believe there's at least one team somewhere in the high 720's or low 730's that runs a Raudhrblade Leo.

And I'll start merging the rest of my Lindes into the [+Spd, -Res] one just in case (or just be lazy and not do anything with the rest of my Lindes and wait for the barracks limit increase on Tuesday? night).

 

5 hours ago, Lushen said:

I like maximizing on their defensive niche.  Right now, -def or -res may be better depending on what specific units are available, but for such an investment, I think long term.  Linde has horrible res, so +ing her res so she can deal with a few units now could be a problem later when they get weaved out of the meta in favor of new units with higher attack.  On the other hand, a +res Linde would let her tank every mage just fine no matter what the future holds.  

+def would make for a better-rounded unit but considering she'll always have 3 other units (unless Voting Gauntlet), I would prefer having another unit that capitalizes on defense and have the two synergize with one another.

At least, that's what I do unless they have over ~23 base in both stats.  Like I said, they'll hate her anyways xD

I'm not sure it's much worth to try to cover for a glass cannon's defensive abilities unless the glass cannon is failing to take hits on the counterattack.

I think the biggest problem that I see with running +Def or +Res is that it already doesn't save her from her mirror match or from Ephraim. Blarblade+ Linde wins against herself if she initiates combat, and Distant Counter Ephraim kills Linde on the counterattack if Desperation isn't up. You can't really future-proof something that isn't even now-proof.

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26 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

 

I'm not sure it's much worth to try to cover for a glass cannon's defensive abilities unless the glass cannon is failing to take hits on the counterattack.

I think the biggest problem that I see with running +Def or +Res is that it already doesn't save her from her mirror match or from Ephraim. Blarblade+ Linde wins against herself if she initiates combat, and Distant Counter Ephraim kills Linde on the counterattack if Desperation isn't up. You can't really future-proof something that isn't even now-proof.

I mistyped a few times.  I didn't mean to say +res or +def, but rather neutral res w/ -def and neutral def w/ -res.   My bad :p

Edited by Lushen
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8 hours ago, Lushen said:

edit:  +atk/-hp Gaius or +spd/-hp gaius?  Regular Gaius, not Summer.  I think he has the potential to be at Kagero's level.  He would have significantly higher speed either way and with a +atk nature would be pretty close to Kagero's attack.  With +spd, however, he should double most everyone.  The only down side is he can't bait mages like Kagero can.

+Atk Gaius if you're not going with Poison Dagger or +Spd if you're going with Poison Dagger. Last I checked, Gaius is the second best thief in terms of offense under Kagero. Anyway, under Gaius would be Saizo, Jakob, Jaffar, and Matthew around third, and Felicia at the bottom. Not sure where summer Frederick would be -- could check, but don't really want to --, but I bet under Kagero and around Gaius's level because of his higher neutral attack.

The issue with +Spd is that daggers have lower MT than the other ranged weapon types and outside of Kagero, most of the dagger units have average to low attack which can't be fixed with things like gem weapons and T-Adept or Wo Dao and Moonbow if you're a sword unit. Even archers who have more units with average to above-average attack and access to Brave and Firesweep Bow still want +Atk more than +Spd. In Firesweep's case, summer Gaius and Setsuna are already fast, so they want more attack to do more chip damage or outright kill by doubling with it while bride Cordelia is fast and strong, so being stronger would be fine, especially if she and the others are running L&D with Firesweep Bow.

Poison Dagger is the only case where +Spd works since you're getting a 1.5x damage multiplier against infantry units, the majority of the cast, so its lower MT doesn't really matter and some low defense non-infantry units can still die from a thief with Poison Dagger. +Spd ensures you double as much units as possible which is really good if most of them are infantry, the units Poison Dagger targets.

Yeah, here's the 2 posts I made on the dagger users way back.

Poison Dagger: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/70033-skill-inheritance-discussion/&page=68#comment-4805368.

Silver Dagger: https://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?/topic/70033-skill-inheritance-discussion/&page=69#comment-4806056.

Edit: I would still recommend checking on KageroChart and messing around with builds for Gaius before going with whatever I say since it's dated and it's based on who gets the best results which might not be your thing.

Edited by Kaden
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1 hour ago, Kaden said:

<snip>

Thanks.  I was pretty sure +atk/+spd would be the best, but both are very useful, didn't know which was better.  If he has high speed, am I correct in assuming a -res nature would be better than a -hp because he will never get doubled?  Though, that's not a big enough deal to wait on.

I figured Kagero would be better in most cases, but Gaius is actually very close.  At first glance he looks terrible, but the more I think about it the more I want to build him up.

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Is there any real value in Vantage if you don't have built-in Distant/Close Counter? I just can't justify it taking up a B-slot over the likes of Quick Riposte, Breakers, Desperation and maybe even Brash Assault unless you're 1HKO'ing or something.

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9 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Is there any real value in Vantage if you don't have built-in Distant/Close Counter? I just can't justify it taking up a B-slot over the likes of Quick Riposte, Breakers, Desperation and maybe even Brash Assault unless you're 1HKO'ing or something.

If you have a really speedy unit Vantage would be better than a breaker or QR, since you'll be doubling anyway, or at the very least, not getting doubled, and Vantage can kill on retaliation before they kill you.  It's best with Distant Counter, but it's still one of the good B Slot skills.  I'd say it's better than Brash Assault, since it's hard to set that one up without getting killed.

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12 minutes ago, Soul~! said:

Is there any real value in Vantage if you don't have built-in Distant/Close Counter? I just can't justify it taking up a B-slot over the likes of Quick Riposte, Breakers, Desperation and maybe even Brash Assault unless you're 1HKO'ing or something.

I like it on my Eldigan since Fury means he quickly gets into KO range of ... anyone, really, letting him get off a hit he otherwise wouldn't. He's not fast enough for Desperation and wouldn't have enough HP to reliably make use of it for most of the map due to the constant hp drain. 

I also have it on my -speed Nino since low speed but high attack means she can often get an extra kill here and there.

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4 hours ago, Rezzy said:

If you have a really speedy unit Vantage would be better than a breaker or QR, since you'll be doubling anyway, or at the very least, not getting doubled, and Vantage can kill on retaliation before they kill you.  It's best with Distant Counter, but it's still one of the good B Slot skills.  I'd say it's better than Brash Assault, since it's hard to set that one up without getting killed.

Most speedy units prefer Desperation I think, since they generally do not hit hard enough to ensure a kill in one hit and don't have great defences.

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Quick question: does Alfonse's weapon passive work like defiant atk 2 i.e. The +5 bonus will be a visible buff and therefore can't stack with hone/rally?

Edited by Okigen
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4 minutes ago, Okigen said:

Quick question: does Alfonse's weapon passive work like defiant atk 2 i.e. The +5 bonus will be a visible buff and therefore can't stack with hone/rally?

Correct.

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