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Ice Dragon's stats research: Stats, calculations, and whatnot

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Hmm, I feel like it would be weird for IS to suddenly move away from multiples of 5% after using it for 14 games straight.

That said, SP gain is in multiples of 6, so it could be possible.

The plot thickens...

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5 hours ago, Ice Dragon said:

I'll probably end up doing that, but it feels somewhat depressing to stare at web development all day at work and then stare at a JSON file when I get home. ^^;;;

Also, thanks for reminding me the wiki has a calculator. I forgot it existed. (Let's see how accurate it is... tomorrow when I have time again.)

I much prefer the wiki's calculator, and use it as my go-to resource when I want to figure things out.  So far, I haven't found any errors.

4 hours ago, VincentASM said:

Hmm, I feel like it would be weird for IS to suddenly move away from multiples of 5% after using it for 14 games straight.

That said, SP gain is in multiples of 6, so it could be possible.

The plot thickens...

Awakening's children had weird growth rates.  Hell, Shadow Dragon sort-of threw that out the window with Marth's 2% Resistance growth.

They've done it before, so it wouldn't surprise me if they do it again.

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6 minutes ago, eclipse said:

Awakening's children had weird growth rates.  Hell, Shadow Dragon sort-of threw that out the window with Marth's 2% Resistance growth.

Barthe the Lego knight did it earlier with his 2% Res growth!

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Fae has a +30 growth in HP. Its modifiers are -3 and +4, putting another large gap between +30 and +33.

Looks like the growth tiers based on what I have so far are: 8, 10, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 33. Large gaps at the bolded values.

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I just pulled a flat iv Hawkeye, so it looks like it actually is possible. 

Spoiler

 

 

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On 2/28/2017 at 9:25 PM, Vaximillian said:

Barthe the Lego knight did it earlier with his 2% Res growth!

At least it's better than everyone's 0% resistance growth in the first game. I mean, what even was the point of including that stat at all? Lol.

Edited by Extrasolar

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I must have missed your explanation for this, but  +Atk Klein runs 38 Atk at 5*, while Neutral Atk runs 34 attack, among others, but some run +/- 3 differences. What's your logic with +/- 3 and 4 stat variances on Nature differences?

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35 minutes ago, Elieson said:

I must have missed your explanation for this, but  +Atk Klein runs 38 Atk at 5*, while Neutral Atk runs 34 attack, among others, but some run +/- 3 differences. What's your logic with +/- 3 and 4 stat variances on Nature differences?

As best as I can tell, it's due to rounding error (or a similar phenomenon) when calculating growth rates.

The currently known growth rates are: 8, 10, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 33. These are formatted as differences between the stat at level 1 and the stat at level 40, e.g. a character with +24 growth in Spd and a 5 Spd base at level 1 has 29 Spd at level 40.

A positive or negative nature does two things. It (1) boosts or decreases the base stat by 1 and (2) boosts or decreases the growth rate by 1 tier. You'll notice that most of the growth rate tiers are separated by 2 points from the tier above and below them, meaning a positive or negative nature results in +3 or -3 (1 point from the base stat modifier and 2 points from the change in growth rate tier), but there are three places (in bold) where the difference between tiers is 3 points. These are the cases where the nature modifier becomes +4 or -4.

If the character has a +19 growth in a stat with a neutral nature, that growth becomes +22 with a positive nature, resulting in a +4 difference at level 40 (1 point from the base stat modifier and 3 points from the change in growth rate tier). The same thing happens with a +22 growth and a negative nature and at the other two 3-point gaps between tiers (between 10 and 13 and between 30 and 33).

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46 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

As best as I can tell, it's due to rounding error (or a similar phenomenon) when calculating growth rates.

The currently known growth rates are: 8, 10, 13, 15, 17, 19, 22, 24, 26, 28, 30, 33. These are formatted as differences between the stat at level 1 and the stat at level 40, e.g. a character with +24 growth in Spd and a 5 Spd base at level 1 has 29 Spd at level 40.

A positive or negative nature does two things. It (1) boosts or decreases the base stat by 1 and (2) boosts or decreases the growth rate by 1 tier. You'll notice that most of the growth rate tiers are separated by 2 points from the tier above and below them, meaning a positive or negative nature results in +3 or -3 (1 point from the base stat modifier and 2 points from the change in growth rate tier), but there are three places (in bold) where the difference between tiers is 3 points. These are the cases where the nature modifier becomes +4 or -4.

If the character has a +19 growth in a stat with a neutral nature, that growth becomes +22 with a positive nature, resulting in a +4 difference at level 40 (1 point from the base stat modifier and 3 points from the change in growth rate tier). The same thing happens with a +22 growth and a negative nature and at the other two 3-point gaps between tiers (between 10 and 13 and between 30 and 33).

 

What's your understanding of units having say, 8, 10 and 13 versus 18, 20 and 23 and 28, 30, 33?

 

Nevermind, you're referring to those numbers as growth rates, when they're referring to Gained Stats I think, so instead of a Growth "rate", it's more of a Growth "points".

Edited by Elieson

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33 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Nevermind, you're referring to those numbers as growth rates, when they're referring to Gained Stats I think, so instead of a Growth "rate", it's more of a Growth "points".

Yeah, I haven't been able to determine the percentage rates themselves yet, so "growth points" is more accurate than "growth rate".

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I have done a brain dump in the original post of just about everything I know.

Forgive the formal-like technical writing style. College and career have made it a hard habit to break. It just doesn't feel right otherwise.

I suppose it also means the wording is precise. I mean exactly what I say, no more and no less.

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Added more battle mechanics.

  • Confirmed that Triangle Adept and weapons with Triangle Adept as an innate skill affect the Atk of both participants. As far as I can tell, they don't stack with each other.
  • My assumption is that when skill inheritance is released, a single character with both Triangle Adept and a weapon with the same effect will not stack.
  • I've added that Sacred Cowl (and Aegis) are capable of activating against Takumi's Close Counter. I haven't tested Pavise and Escutcheon yet, but I assume they cannot.

 

Now to start testing getting my team wrecked in the Arena. Woo. Hopefully, I can separate out some Hectors and Effies to run some tests against.

 

EDIT:

  • Pavise activated against Close Counter. Well, this is going to be confusing.
  • Armads's Quick Riposte works against Wary Fighter.

Time to re-test Sacred Cowl to make sure my eyes weren't deceiving me. My god, it's hard to find a Takumi when you actually need one.

EDIT 2:

Okay, Sacred Cowl doesn't work against Close Counter. My eyes must have deceived me. Goddammit.

EDIT 3:

Special skills that affect damage are almost certainly applied sequentially with the attacker's special skill applying first and the defender's special skill applying second. Both modifiers are rounded down.

  • Ryoma with 57 Atk (50 + Defiant Atk) against Hector with 37 Def activating Astra and Buckler (Buckler, not Pavise) resulted in 54 damage.
Edited by Ice Dragon

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Good to know that Triangle Adept and Gem Weapons actually affect the Atk of both characters. I always thought it only modified the user's Atk (up 20% or down 20% respectively). I was wondering why I was not doing as much damage using Ryoma (Red Sword) against Azura (Blue Lance // Sapphire Weapon).

Although, on the flipside, if I end up sending an axe user at Azura (or a lance user at Roy), then the Triangle Adept character will deal less damage and receive more in return, right? May sound obvious, but I just want to make sure.

Also, a part of me hopes the "Triangle Adept" skill and "Triangle Adept" weapon stack, because I had one Selena build revolve around that. If not, then I'll need to reconsider her loadout.
* * * * *
Anyways, thanks for your time and research! I look forward to future developments.

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33 minutes ago, Sire said:

Although, on the flipside, if I end up sending an axe user at Azura (or a lance user at Roy), then the Triangle Adept character will deal less damage and receive more in return, right? May sound obvious, but I just want to make sure.

Yep. I sent Julia up against Roy earlier today and the numbers match up. Julia received a -40% penalty to her Atk. It doesn't matter who initiates combat.

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18 hours ago, Sire said:

Good to know that Triangle Adept and Gem Weapons actually affect the Atk of both characters. I always thought it only modified the user's Atk (up 20% or down 20% respectively). I was wondering why I was not doing as much damage using Ryoma (Red Sword) against Azura (Blue Lance // Sapphire Weapon).

Although, on the flipside, if I end up sending an axe user at Azura (or a lance user at Roy), then the Triangle Adept character will deal less damage and receive more in return, right? May sound obvious, but I just want to make sure.

Also, a part of me hopes the "Triangle Adept" skill and "Triangle Adept" weapon stack, because I had one Selena build revolve around that. If not, then I'll need to reconsider her loadout.
* * * * *
Anyways, thanks for your time and research! I look forward to future developments.

Wouldn't it be better to give her more base attack rather than triangle adept or a gem weapon? Selena has enough bulk that greens do a pittance regardless, and more base dmg would boost damage against greens just like TAdept, but also against reds, grays, and blues.

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Responded to DehNutCase by PM to not clutter up this topic. However, for those curious, the message is below within the spoiler.

Spoiler

The thing with Selena is her low ATT. Even if we give her a Silver Sword+ over an Armorslayer+, she will gain only +3 ATT. So, instead of being 34/37/41, she will be 37/40/44, which is still fairly low. My ideal ATT is at least 47 at baseline (-ATT Ryoma for example). Now granted, she can get that with the +3 ATT "Passive A," but she may want a different skill there instead.

Honestly though, I just wanted to see what would happen if I made Selena super effective against Green units. I wanted a gimmick build instead of a practical one, so I went "all in" with Triangle Adept and a Gem Weapon.

Realistically speaking, it would be wise for Selena to take advantage of her SPD and general bulk while attempting to buff her offensive capabilities. Alternatively, we could make her more defensive in nature instead. Here are some ideas...

Gimmick!Selena	Ruby Sword+*	|| Luna*, Rally Resistance*	|| Triangle Adept, Seal Atk*, Hone Atk*
Attack!Selena	Silver Sword+*	|| Luna*, Rally Resistance*	|| Death Blow*, Seal Defense*, Threaten SPD

Defend!Selena	Silver Sword+*	|| Sol*, Rally Resistance*	|| Armored Blow*, Seal Atk*, Threaten SPD
-- Alt A: Attack +3

Anyways, I hope this answers your post.

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Minor update:

Re-tested Dragon Fang. It looks like the Dragon special skills work identically to the Ice and Fire special skills in that they increase your damage dealt by 30%/50% of your Atk rather than modifying your Atk. This means the additional damage is unaffected by weapon triangle and effective damage modifiers (in the same way that damage added from Glacies, etc., is unaffected by weapon triangle and effective damage modifiers).

Test case: Julia with 57 Atk (including Hone Atk) against Fae with 23 Res activating Dragon Fang (+50% Atk) dealt 90 damage. The 28 damage increase compared to not activating Dragon Fang (62 damage) corresponds perfectly with half of Julia's Atk, unmodified by effective damage.

 

Damage from additional damage special skills is added before damage is floored off at zero.

Test case: Camilla with 38 Atk against Stahl with 34 Def and a Ruby Sword activating Dragon Aura (+30% Atk) dealt zero damage. Ruby Sword reduces Camilla's effective Atk to 23, dealing -11 damage. Dragon Aura adds 11 damage, resulting in zero damage. Damage is then floored at zero.

To confirm that Dragon Aura is, in fact, unaffected by weapon triangle modifiers, I previously tested against Corrin (M) and confirmed that the bonus damage is 11 damage against a red unit (2x4 damage on the pre-combat UI corresponded to a drop of 19 in Corrin's HP).

 

I'll add these to the opening post... eventually. I need to wood chipper and merge some people to make space for another round of wallet burning summoning.

 

EDIT: For my personal reference, the next thing I want to test is Spur Atk with Dragon Fang.

Edited by Ice Dragon

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On 3/8/2017 at 11:34 AM, Ice Dragon said:

Re-tested Dragon Fang. It looks like the Dragon special skills work identically to the Ice and Fire special skills in that they increase your damage dealt by 30%/50% of your Atk rather than modifying your Atk. This means the additional damage is unaffected by weapon triangle and effective damage modifiers (in the same way that damage added from Glacies, etc., is unaffected by weapon triangle and effective damage modifiers).

 

In short; +% Atk skills base off of your modified attack stat, before assuming battle is actually happening, therefore occuring before Tri+/Effective damage multipliers kick in. Got it

 

Quickie for ya; haven't had the chance to test; Do R/G/B units have (Dis)advantage over unequipped G/B/R units, and do #Raven weapons have advantage over unequipped Colorless units? I assume there's a difference here but I lack units to test the #Raven thing with in particular.

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Just now, Elieson said:

In short; +% Atk skills base off of your modified attack stat, before assuming battle is actually happening, therefore occuring before Tri+/Effective damage multipliers kick in. Got it

Haven't yet tested if in-battle buffs like Spur affect special skill damage. 50/50 either way. I'm thinking of doing the testing tonight (once I find a training tower stratum with a dragon in it to nuke with Naga).

 

2 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Quickie for ya; haven't had the chance to test; Do R/G/B units have (Dis)advantage over unequipped G/B/R units, and do #Raven weapons have advantage over unequipped Colorless units? I assume there's a difference here but I lack units to test the #Raven thing with in particular.

I believe weapon triangle works off of a unit's color and not off of a unit's equipped weapon. So that's a "yes" to both. I'll re-test tonight. I vaguely recall the arrows indicating advantage and disadvantage still appearing even when unarmed.

(It's easy to test -Raven weapons. Just bring an unequipped colorless unit into the arena and hope for a Robin to show up.)

Based on the fact that all dragons have Fire Breath and Fire Breath+ as their first two weapons, I'm almost certain that weapons themselves are all technically type-agnostic where the actual type used for the weapon triangle, -Breaker skills, etc. is determined solely by the character (i.e. the type of "red sword" is stored on the character "Lucina" and not on the weapon "Falchion").

If someone managed to hack a Lucina with a Silver Lance+, I have a suspicion that the weapon triangle will still consider that to be a sword.

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10 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

Based on the fact that all dragons have Fire Breath and Fire Breath+ as their first two weapons, I'm almost certain that weapons themselves are all technically type-agnostic where the actual type used for the weapon triangle, -Breaker skills, etc. is determined solely by the character (i.e. the type of "red sword" is stored on the character "Lucina" and not on the weapon "Falchion").

If someone managed to hack a Lucina with a Silver Lance+, I have a suspicion that the weapon triangle will still consider that to be a sword.

That was going to be my next question, though not because of hacktastic weaponry adjustments but due to the fact that at this moment, we don't know of units can Xfer weaponry from Color to Color or Type to Type yet. I'd call it downright silly to see Sophia running around with a Hammer, but I have seen a few instances in lower levels of the arena, in which dancers have no weapon equippped (which I assume is there to help Olivia not get WTD from incoming lances), while Stratum 0-3 tend to have healers that lack a weapon to begin with. 

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8 minutes ago, Elieson said:

That was going to be my next question, though not because of hacktastic weaponry adjustments but due to the fact that at this moment, we don't know of units can Xfer weaponry from Color to Color or Type to Type yet. I'd call it downright silly to see Sophia running around with a Hammer, but I have seen a few instances in lower levels of the arena, in which dancers have no weapon equippped (which I assume is there to help Olivia not get WTD from incoming lances), while Stratum 0-3 tend to have healers that lack a weapon to begin with. 

I'm guessing non-breath weapons are going to be explicitly locked by weapon type. Breath weapons 50/50 anyone's guess.

I'm almost certain the healers in the lower strata do receive weapon triangle disadvantage to the Raven spells. That's probably easier than testing against Robin the arena.

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Confirmed weapon triangle advantage and disadvantage applies even when unarmed. Sword Armor with 14 Atk (Iron Sword) against Camilla with 14 Def (unarmed) deals 2 damage (14 + 2 - 14).

Confirmed weapon triangle advantage of Raven tomes applies against unarmed colorless staves. Robin with 43 Atk (Blarraven+) against Sister with 11 Res (unarmed, Life) deals 40 damage (43 + 8 - 11).

Confirmed that in-battle buffs are accounted for when calculating special skill damage. Julia with 53 Atk (Naga) with Spur Atk 3 (+4 Atk) from Lucina against Corrin (F) with 17 Res (Dark Breath+) deals 85 damage (53 + 4 + 28 + 17 - 17) on a normal attack and 113 damage (53 + 4 + 28 + 28 + 17 - 17) (RIP) when Dragon Fang (+50% Atk) activates.

 

Opening post will be updated shortly.

 

EDIT: Done. Also added calculations for before-battle special skills and healing special skills. Def and Res reduction special skill calculations are assumed to be true. I have no reason to believe rounding goes in any other direction based on all other calculations, and I won't bother testing for now, even if it's super easy to do with Ephraim

Edited by Ice Dragon

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Stupid truncation being mandatory on literally everything in excel. Thanks game.

One other thing to test that I am curious about, if you have the opportunity, when Inheritance comes out; wondering if Defiant <stat> transfers into #Blade spells as a bonus. Just leaving this here as a note, since self +14 atk buff on nino would be absurd

Edited by Elieson

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4 minutes ago, Elieson said:

Stupid truncation being mandatory on literally everything in excel. Thanks game.

One other thing to test that I am curious about, if you have the opportunity, when Inheritance comes out; wondering if Defiant <stat> transfers into #Blade spells as a bonus. Just leaving this here as a note, since self +14 atk buff on nino would be absurd

...You know Odin already has that combo, right?

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1 minute ago, DehNutCase said:

...You know Odin already has that combo, right?

I was just about to say... Ninjas everywhere today.

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