Sad look at some thoughts on our fanbase

[Jedi]

I was just browsing my now actually used Twitter and saw this 

 

Most of the other comments are fairly similar too, the FE fanbase is currently very divided, we have so many subfactions its kind of intimidating, not to mention tons of differing outlooks on the franchise, and our fellow players, and the very brutal flamewars. Serenes is a bastion of fairly pleasant people, however we are just one FE place of many (and some would say even we are elitist, if you looked at other forums).  

Is there a way we can unite and make our group look a bit less... For lack of a better word, insane? Mean? Intimidating? 

We need to find some common ground, those who are considered veterans of the franchise regardless of who they are, are considered Hardcore players who dislike everything past New Mystery, the casual crowd is considered those who started with Awakening and Fates and players who refuse to go back to past games. Which is a huge double blanket statement, we have people from all sorts of introduction to FE, we have all kinds of veterans who enjoy the newer FE's, etc. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, yes that won't change, I just think this fanbase as a whole are very aggressive when they dislike something, unfair to those who do like something they might not, among other things.

This outlook on the fanbase we are all part of, will not change overnight, but there HAS to be something we can do, and thats why I made this thread, to see what the community itself thinks.

I doubt this will have any results, but I felt I'd give it a try.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

This is one of those things that's easy for people in the fandom to say doesn't exist, but it really does. It's not a matter of arrogance or anything, just perspective.

I think the divide between the "veterans" and "casuals" is definitely because of how much FE has changed over time. Literally every single generation has a completely different system, and add on new game modes like Casual and Phoenix mode, not to mention literally two different games for the last FE, the number of ways to play to game has increased a lot. Each of these systems has its own advantages and disadvantages, but most people definitely have a favourite. This is where the divide comes in, and I suppose people in this fandom are extremely vocal about their opinions.

I would liken this divide to the conflict between Melee and Smash 4 in the Smash community. There are definitely people who accept both games but favour one, and some that play both, but there is a rather vocal part of the community that only bashes the game they don't like as much. Unlike the FE fandom, however, the vocal bashers are very much a minority. People are more likely to pick a "camp" on the FE argument and just stick to it instead of being equally impressed with both sides, from my experience. Perhaps it's due to the nature of the game, as a single player experience. Unlike Smash, you can't show your friend a super cool match to convince them that your game is sick, nor can you hop on and beat their ass to show them that.

Honestly, I find people who refuse to like anything about the newer games to be rather unreasonable. I've met someone who not only dislikes the system changes, but also hates things like the "Ablaze" battle music and crit quotes, pretty much just because they were introduced in Awakening. It's understandable to reject a game based on its mechanics, but I find it hard to wrap my head around hating on things that do nothing but add polish to a game.

Newer players who refuse to pick up older titles are, to me, equally unreasonable, but I usually just let them be, because they'll either not stick around for long, or their growing love of the game will eventually lead them to do so. I think.

As for actually changing the status quo, I think it's a matter of demonstrating that people who vocally bash some FE games are not welcome. And they shouldn't be, if you want any semblance of a cancerless community. You can't really stop people from circlejerking, but if there's a clear distinction between the base fandom and people who just want to be elitists (like r/Kappa, lol), it's much easier for new people to find a warm welcome. It's okay to have strong opinion, and talk about said strong opinion, but definitely try and be fair about it. There is always something that a game you don't like does better than your favourite in FE.

[Sunwoo]

No, it's already too late. Just accept that the FE fanbase is the way it is, stop caring about what others think, and move on.

[Party Moth]

26 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

I Honestly, I find people who refuse to like anything about the newer games to be rather unreasonable. I've met someone who not only dislikes the system changes, but also hates things like the "Ablaze" battle music and crit quotes, pretty much just because they were introduced in Awakening. It's understandable to reject a game based on its mechanics, but I find it hard to wrap my head around hating on things that do nothing but add polish to a game.

As someone who's mixed on the "Ablaze" variations of the newer titles, I feel like I should respond to the statement that they "do nothing but add polish to a game." While they lead to more cohesive looping through giving a map very smooth transitions between battle and map music, they tend to make for rather dull listening away from the game itself due to dynamic contrast and instrumental contrast being somewhat limited to separate tracks. They force climactic points to occasionally occur in places where the cadential phrases don't line up. I'm not for or against either the Ablaze variations or the older methods, but there's certainly pros and cons to be found with both.

That said, I agree that some can be fairly strongly against either the newer or older games. I myself have very strong opinions against the more recent games (largely an abandonment of many aspects I found of value in the older games), but credit should be given where credit is due.

[Dual Dragons]

It could start with just acknowledging everyone has different tastes and, you know, don't get insulted if someone doesn't like your favorite game. Some of us are very passionate about video games, but does it mean we need to feel like as though we're being attacked personally if someone doesn't like one's favorite game? Absolutely not.

The new player or old player issue is hard. Both camps are stubborn. They're born out of personal preferences and expecting the next game to be what they like... when one of the reasons why I like FE is because they tend to change it up with each installment. I won't always enjoy the changes, but it's better than getting the same game system and mechanics but tweaked ever so slightly.

Though I'll admit, I highly doubt anything can be done about it. The tonal shift after New Mystery was that big. If anything, the best thing we could do is have open discussions in places other than forums and be civil--and those that aren't civil be reprimanded. Like any good discussion should be.

----

Funnily enough, I wouldn't mind if Chuggaconroy did videos on Fire Emblem. If there's one thing I know him for is that he does his research. He's not correct 100% of the time but the man does look things up as his videos are educational as well as entertaining. He will state when he's wrong. I give him respect for that.

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

12 minutes ago, Party Moth said:

As someone who's mixed on the "Ablaze" variations of the newer titles, I feel like I should respond to the statement that they "do nothing but add polish to a game." While they lead to more cohesive looping through giving a map very smooth transitions between battle and map music, they tend to make for rather dull listening away from the game itself due to dynamic contrast and instrumental contrast being somewhat limited to separate tracks. They force climactic points to occasionally occur in places where the cadential phrases don't line up. I'm not for or against either the Ablaze variations or the older methods, but there's certainly pros and cons to be found with both.

That said, I agree that some can be fairly strongly against either the newer or older games. I myself have very strong opinions against the more recent games (largely an abandonment of many aspects I found of value in the older games), but credit should be given where credit is due.

Fair enough. The person I spoke to did not have a real reason.

[Deltre]

It's not really possible in my mind for the simple reason that "Modern FE" is a very, very different beast compared to "Classic FE." While I don't really understand all the hate that Awakening gets personally, the fact is that it has issues. And to be honest, I could probably write an entire novel on the things that are objectively wrong with Fates, but I won't do that here, especially in a topic trying to promote unity. 

Tonally, modern and classic FE couldn't be more different. It's to the point that if you didn't tell me that they were a part of the same series, with characters and locations shared between them, I might honestly think that Fates was an entirely different set of games all together. Games that draw inspiration from Fire Emblem, clearly, but different games nonetheless. To Awakening's credit, it still feels like it belongs in universe, but it still feels wildly different in its own way. 

The elephant in the room would of course be the "dating sim" aspects of the newer titles, and unless that goes away there's never going to be unity again. And let's be honest, its not going anywhere. The thing is, the term "Waifu" is regularly associated with FE now, and that really bothers a vocal group of  "classic FE" fans. To a certain extent, I get it, because this stigma makes it really strange to introduce someone to the series who maybe isn't that familiar with it or has only played the GBA titles. Making things worse is the fact that people actually embrace the term, and will (mostly) ironically toss around the term "waifu" not realizing that when they do so, they basically confirm outside conceptions on the fanbase as a whole. I'm not saying new FE actually is about pairing off your units first, and tactical gameplay second, but with the way certain fans act and the way the games have been marketed you'd be forgiven for thinking so.

That doesn't even touch on the fact that even if you get past all that, the way it's handled in the games is pretty terrible when you compare it to another game with fleshed out and polished social aspects like Persona 3/4. The 4 conversations = baby thing is really, really silly and feels incredibly awkward compared to something like FE4, where it's implied that each chapter takes place over the span of several months at a minimum. Finally, things that could qualify as "dating sims" are pretty stigmatized in America (compared to say, Japan) so you can't really clear this hurdle without addressing an entire social stigma, or removing the feature from the game. And again, I actually don't mind Awakening at all.

And the final nail in the coffin that makes me 100% certain that this will never be fixed is that this is a video game community. Seriously, that's all that really needs to be said I think. I'm sure you could find someone who vocally hated the original Super Mario Bros. if you looked hard enough. You have to remember that even if these games have been picking up steam lately, this is still a niche series, with even more niche aspects that have been introduced lately. At the end of the day, play what you want. If you're too intimidated to talk about something you like because someone might disagree with you, then it's honestly a personal problem. 

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

I don't really see a problem of this guy right here. Split fanbases exist everywhere, not only in videogames. I can't really see why, FE suffers so much more than other series. Of course FE did a change after the years with the increased part of fanservice and romance, but it's still pretty much the same gamplay like 20-25 years ago.

Sure, some people don't like the modernization (including me), but it's no real argument to dissuade new people from playing the new games to find an own introduction into this series. If someone badmouths sth. on YT, then just block them!

Not starting a LP of a new series just because of being scared of the reaction of some called "fans" is a bit too much overreacting for me.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Magilou

[twice]

We all play FE because we like it and that should be all that matters imo. Not the petty crap anymore. But simple things like that isn't the reality here, and people online need to grow up. It's best to try to ignore the bad stuff and focus on the positive. 

 

 

[Sunwoo]

In all seriousness, to give a less flippant answer, I don't think there's a way to make the FE community seem less "intimidating", and it seems presumptuous to assume that there's really anything we can do to make a difference. Neither the "old fans" or the "new fans" are wholly innocent or in the wrong. Same thing with old fans who like the new stuff and old fans who hate it. Every side has that one shithead who makes the rest of us look bad, and each faction points to people like that crying about how "see, all of those fans are like that!" No one wants to take the first step and admit that they may be in the wrong.

There's also a line between bashing a game unfairly, talking about why you don't like it a bit too much but still being within bounds, and discussing why you don't like it in a thread dedicated to that topic. There are people who do go around bashing the new games in threads that have nothing to do with it, and that's wrong. But you also have people who come into threads that are dedicated to such discussion, which have been perfectly civil, and act all high-and-mighty and be like, "people just want to whine about this game unfairly". Both sides need to recognize that they do it, and they both need to stop.

People who feel the same way also don't have the same reasons for it, and it's rather exasperating when people call those who like the newer games "waifu lovers" or the people who prefer the old games, "backwards elitists" or whatever have you. I'm sure you guys have heard (and maybe called each other by) various types of names. Our feelings are not simplistic, and they deserve to not be portrayed as a hive mind.

Do I think it's disheartening when people are too intimidated by a fanbase to do something? Not really. In my mind, it's an obstacle that you will either conquer or you will let yourself be conquered by. Is the game itself, or a project you want to do for the game, important enough to you so that you will risk getting people screaming at you? Or is your desire to not be screamed at stronger? Do you even care what other fans think about the things you like or don't like? And why should you?

FE fanbase isn't great. But I don't think it's going to fix itself anytime soon, and that asking people "can't we get along" is going to make things worse. Leave it as it is. If you can also learn how to not care what people think about your tastes regarding a certain game or series, even better.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Sunwoo

[dap005]

I generally think that r/fireemblem and serenes are fairly friendly fandoms and that's why it has been easy for me to start posting on either even if I haven't the chance to play many fes outside sacred stones and awakening and watching shadow dragon playthrough (though my obsession has lead me to basically know quite a bit about the other games, so much for avoiding spoilers lol). I just would like to play all the games when they're more readily available without emulators + better UI etc. 

But I do agree that there is a divide but I think IS is going to address that with a series like echoes. What attracted me to the games is the merging of gameplay and character-based narratives. Not so much the dating sim elements added in recent FEs, so despite being a newer (sort of) fan it's the older games that intrigue me the most (also the female designs are hell lot cooler, both visually and more nuanced personality wise). Plus I have no interest in things like 'who's your favourite waifu/husbando' stuff. For me characters are a way to add more depth and importance to a story/increase empathy on who they may reflect in real-life, so bad/cliched/pandering elements in character writing and design irks me slightly. 

At the end of day regardless of what people like, they should not see it as a way to spread hate to other fans that differ in their opinion. I think if you can share an interesting discussion about something you love with strangers just connected by that same passion, that's the reason why people join fandoms. And within fire emblem fandom, as long as a majority of people are welcoming then newer players shouldn't have much of an issue to discover the depth of the series (which has been the case from what I've seen on SF and r/fireemblem).

I never felt that the criticisms of the newer games are unfair either, I mean if they didn't exist game devs would lose valuable research material ;P. Not all criticism is constructive but it really helps provide perspective on things.

Edited February 12, 2017 by dap005

[dap005]

51 minutes ago, Deltre said:

Tonally, modern and classic FE couldn't be more different. It's to the point that if you didn't tell me that they were a part of the same series, with characters and locations shared between them, I might honestly think that Fates was an entirely different set of games all together. Games that draw inspiration from Fire Emblem, clearly, but different games nonetheless. To Awakening's credit, it still feels like it belongs in universe, but it still feels wildly different in its own way. 

 

 

 

3

This is why I couldn't really be sold on Fate, the tone just didn't appeal to me (and the whole three game split thing, I'm a cheap-skate and ended up buying IS's code name steam instead, which ended up being one of my favourite games) as much as the other FE titles - and a large part of that is the dating-sim-inspired stuff. Though I did like the ancient Japanese style of Birthright, it looked too much like an Awakening clone which as someone that's bored of having the same thing didn't work for me either.

SoV's announcement though, pulled me right back into FE obsession again and I guess it's how gaiden is so different from other fes gameplay wise and how the tone of the game just appealed more to me (Hidari's designs, the focus on non-avatar characters, and possible chance they'll add supports that are relevant to the world-building rather etc). And frankly bc of the lack of all the pandering stuff, I find it much easier to recommend it to a friend who's never played a FE. 

Edited February 12, 2017 by dap005

[bethany81707]

Honestly, I think this is a crying shame, because if anyone has the charisma to help one of the sides find value in the other (and it's going to have to be one at a time), it's this guy. He's been my introduction to so many different series (including Zelda, of all things), and my problems with Awakening and Fates have always stemmed from finding it difficult to find playthroughs and scripts that demonstrate their respective stories.

[Dinar87]

As someone who used to be one type of elitist (started with awakening and thought it was the best thing ever), ended up being another type (played path of radiance and thought it was the best thing ever), and now has (hopefully) become more middle grounded, I can say that the real solution for me has been simple-actually play the damn games...all of them!!!

I used to have a massive hatred towards fates...until I played it and found out it wasn't that bad imo. I used to look down on classic fans as "nitpicking" and "bitching and whining like entitled children"...until I played the older games and finally saw how they had meaningful differences between them all. The key problem I'd say is that it's relatively difficult to not only get started (since the sheer amount of games to play might seem overwhelming) but also even playing some of the games is either very expensive or just flat out require emulators (which not everyone is comfortable with doing). 

This is why it's a real shame people like chuggaaconroy play the old "'x' fanbase is cancerous" card since what we really need these days is a way to encourage both sides to try out the other sides' favorite games and, through people like him giving both sides' games exposure, he could've potentially of made the fanbase less cancerous as both would eventually come to the realization that all games have their strengths and weaknesses and that it's all about personal preferences in the end.  

[Folt]

Yes, as much a Awakening and Fates are some of my favorite FEs, they still have their weaknesses. Too bad I know quite a few who are adamant in proving everyone else that those weaknesses are the whole game. At times it feels like they're making it their cause to hate them and doing everything they can to proselytize others. And of course, that has led to a formation of the opposite which is just as bad.

Honestly, I've found that I don't mind pandering elements or grinding or reclassing or Mary Sueish Avatars or children units or contrived reasons to have them as I still enjoyed the games in spite of, and because of, those elements. Fire Emblem is still fun to me. Still the classic FEs had their own charm and it was after Blazing Sword and Sacred Stones after all which got me hooked on the series.

Still, I don't think we're going to see a unified FE fandom anymore since a lot of the things that makes certain oldschool fans cringe at the modern games are also things that, in my opinion, make the series more marketable. Still, IS hasn't stopped experimenting with the series, and it'll be fun to play what seems to be an slightly more classic, yet different, FE in Fire Emblem Echoes.

It's sad that Chuggaconroy feels the way he does, but in a way, I can understand where he comes from. With how divided the fandom is nowadays, I'm not sure there's many who could handle a potential shitstorm caused by certain kinds of "fans" if certain things/games/elements are not praised/bashed enough (or the inverse for that sake).

But at least, for all the cancer (rightfully perceived or not) that exists in the fandom, I haven't found us deprived of reasonable debate and discussion yet. The love a fandom should have for a series that they're fans of is still here.

[bethany81707]

I'm also just going to leave this here, so we don't give ourselves too much credit.

[RJWalker]

Why does this divide matter? People have different opinions. Get used to it.

[Slumber]

I don't like the comparison to the Sonic fanbase. The FE community and the Sonic community are scary for different reasons.

One is likely to bash you for liking certain sets of games in the franchise and are just super opinionated, the other is likely to flood you with furry porn and bad fanfiction.

[bethany81707]

1 minute ago, Slumber said:

I don't like the comparison to the Sonic fanbase. The FE community and the Sonic community are scary for different reasons.

One is likely to bash you for liking certain sets of games in the franchise and are just super opinionated, the other is likely to flood you with furry porn and bad fanfiction.

Hey, with how unpopular the Tellius games are, it doesn't happen at the same time.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

This might go off of topic, but seriously I thought about a complete different reason that Emile never started a FE LP:

The gameplay might overrestimate his intelligence. I know him from a few LPs of the RunawayGuys, and I can remember that he's really not the smartest person of the world (just watch the Wheel of Fortune videos). Sure, he LPed some RPGs (Mother 3...) but these games didn't require mathematical knowledge unlike FE does. I think he was afraid to disgrace himself (again) by getting overwhelmed by the mechanics.

I'm absolute honest: I really believe he uses the argument in the OP only as an excuse.

Sry, if it sounds odd and a bit insulting but this is what I'm seriously thinking... and not only since I read this topic.

[bethany81707]

Just now, Magilou said:

This might go off of topic, but seriously I thought about a complete different reason that Emile never started a FE LP:

The gameplay might overrestimate his intelligence. I know him from a few LPs of the RunawayGuys, and I can remember that he's really not the smartest person of the world (just watch the Wheel of Fortune videos). Sure, he LPed some RPGs (Mother 3...) but these games didn't require mathematical knowledge unlike FE does. I think he was afraid to disgrace himself (again) by getting overwhelmed by the mechanics.

I'm absolute honest: I really believe he uses the argument in the OP only as an excuse.

Sry, if it sounds odd and a bit insulting but this is what I'm seriously thinking... and not only since I read this topic.

Another thread in that Twitter conversation was that, on his first playthrough, the game ramped up in difficulty too quickly, while he was still trying to handle the basics. You... might actually have a point.

Though other threads from that Tweet seem to indicate he plays (possibly regularly) on Hard, so maybe he's gotten better.

[MisterIceTeaPeach]

^ Which FE part did he play?

[carefreejules]

Don't look at Youtube comments and you're good to go aha..............

[bethany81707]

3 minutes ago, Magilou said:

^ Which FE part did he play?

Awakening. He did mention wanting to get in before that, but the difficulty eventually stopped him on his first tries.

[Slumber]

8 minutes ago, phineas81707 said:

Awakening. He did mention wanting to get in before that, but the difficulty eventually stopped him on his first tries.

Even Awakening on Hard is easier than most FEs on Normal. I get the feeling him trying to play FE games would probably draw a lot of criticism. His schtick is being a goofy airhead. If him playing normal-ass RPGs has ended in disaster before, him playing an RPG with explicit strategy elements on top would probably go over even worse.

Edited February 12, 2017 by Slumber