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Updated FE12 translation patch (Beta 2 released!)

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I'd also like to apologize for the delays. I work very closely with Hero to retranslate the text, and I've been caught up with college graduation, then having to move, and then just now coming down with a stomach bug. It held everything up on my end by a good 3-4 weeks. Normally, we tend to work through the script at a much faster rate, but some life stuff on my end got in the way.

 

However, to give you an idea of what the retranslation is looking like, I'd like to share our retranslation of the conversation between Kris and Elice. This one was a very contentious translation in the original HoS patch, and I believe our revision provides a good sample of what we're doing.

Many people have a distaste for the Avatar in FE12 (Kris/Chris), and how the game's script seems to give them undue importance. I understand where this is coming from, and I think I can speak to it - myself and the project lead, Hero, have been going over the game's script in its entirety, with me sending notes and revisions on what I find to be objectionable, unnatural, ill-toned, or awkward phrases or moments, and Hero giving me extensive translation notes on the original Japanese script.

In particular, for many players, the scene with the Avatar and Elice in Prologue IV comes across as being "Random teenager I don't know, please protect Marth!" We actually had to retranslate that scene almost completely from scratch. So let me show you what's closer to the intention after our revisions, and do some before/after comparisons. First, the original translation, courtesy of Serenes Forest:

 

Elice:
Oh my... You are a junior knight, are you not?

Chris:
Uh, yes. I'm Chris. I came here hoping to become an Altean knight. And you are...?

Elice:
I am Elice. Marth's elder sister.

Chris:
Oh! Prince Marth's elder sister... Please excuse my lack of manners.

Elice:
It's alright. Chris... I think it's very admirable that you've come to help Marth.

Chris:
It is an honor to serve Prince Marth, the Hero King.

Elice:
"The Hero King"... you say? It does seem that our people have grown fond of calling him that. But truth of the matter is that Marth... Marth is just a weak, vulnerable child...

Chris:
Prince Marth is weak...?

Elice:
Yes. Of course, he was the hero who triumphed in the battle against the Shadow Dragon. However, behind his heroic face, Marth is an idealistic child who firmly clings on to his beliefs. And as you too must know, the real world... cannot be saved with just ideals.

Chris:
Yes...

Elice:
Even as we speak, somewhere unknown to us, our peoples' lives are being lost... Marth cannot save those people.

Chris:
Yes, that's true... Even the most excellent of kings is not an omnipotent god. A king is no more than human, and there are limits to the things he can do.

Elice:
Yes. Precisely. Most people realize this and can come to terms with that reality. But Marth cannot do that... He truly thinks that he can save everyone. In war, losing just one companion is unbearable for him... He suppresses his feelings with all his willpower, but I know that inside, his heart breaks and bleeds...

Chris:
......

Elice:
In this cruel world, it will become increasingly difficult for him to continue to hold those ideals... Chris, if some day you should achieve knighthood... Please, protect him somehow and keep his ideals safe...

 

I don't think it's a controversial statement to say that there are some... problems there. Here's my original notes on the scene, since they sum up what I see are the fundamental issues:

It only really clicked for me during this last revision what this scene was supposed to be: a chance meeting with Elice shapes the avatar's thinking, helps them understand Marth, and shows them that they have to share his ethics. When I played this casually, I got a completely different impression - that the avatar had a chance meeting with Elice, who gossiped to them about how secretly weak Marth was. I pictured her as some vengeful specter, wounded from the events of the previous game, walking around and stirring up shit, perhaps with a wine glass dangling limply in her hand. That would have been an interesting way for things to go, sure, but I now understand that it's not what the player was supposed to think at all. Elice's warning also comes across less as "make sure you understand what you're getting yourself into because Marth's code must not be allowed to pass from this world" and more as "look out for my idiot brother because he's going to get himself killed trying to save everyone".

 

And here's our revised script (please note I had to convert this from how the game handles internal coding with an automated program, so there may be some small typographical errors as the result of the conversion):

MS204_ED3_1_PCF1:

ELICE enters

ELICE: Oh my... You are a squire, are you not?

AVATAR: Ah, yes. I'm AVATAR. I came here hoping to become an Altean knight. And you are...?

ELICE: I am Elice. Marth's elder sister.

AVATAR: Oh! Prince Marth's elder sister... Please excuse my lack of manners.

ELICE: It's alright, AVATAR... I think it's very admirable that you've come to help Marth.

AVATAR: It is an honor to serve Prince Marth, the Hero-King.

ELICE: "Hero-King," you say...? It does seem that the people have grown fond of calling him that. But the truth of the matter is that Marth... Marth is a thoughtful, sensitive young man.

MS204_ED3_2_PCF1:

AVATAR: Prince Marth is sensitive...?

ELICE: You misunderstand. That does not diminish Marth's accomplishments. Marth will always be the hero of the War of Shadows--yet he will always be a man who holds firmly to his ideals, as well. Listen well, squire: empathy is no weakness. Even so, there are times when ideals collide with reality, and a choice must be made.

AVATAR: I... see.

ELICE: Even as we speak, somewhere unknown to us, innocent lives are being lost. No king can be everywhere, save everyone. Marth is no god--but to be worthy of the title "Hero-King," he believes he must hold himself to the standards of one.

AVATAR: You're right... No matter how excellent a king, he is not almighty. No ruler is. With all the stories about them, it's easy to forget that kings are still just human.

ELICE: Ah, now you're beginning to understand. Most people accept this fact, and temper their ideals to suit reality. But he cannot do that. He truly must save everyone. If he fails even one friend, one comrade, one innocent... it is unbearable to him. He can hide it if he must, but loss weighs upon him heavily, and Marth's heart is no stranger to regret...

AVATAR: ......

ELICE: In this harsh world, it will be difficult for him to keep hold of those virtues... but keep hold he must. If you truly wish to be among Marth's knights, you must do more than protect the man--you must protect his ideals. For Marth to lose his ideals would be worse than losing his life.

 

There are two key differences in the revision: firstly, that Elice isn't a vengeful gossip-monger anymore. She was bizarrely hostile to Marth in the original, and it wasn't clear why. Secondly, the player isn't special - they're not being charged to protect his life, they're being told that if they are going to be his knight, they can't just fight well, they have to learn to share Marth's code of ethics. Elice is less asking a random stranger for help than she is bumping in to a raw recruit and making sure they know exactly what they're getting themselves into.

Her examples of Marth's refusal to compromise are less to demonstrate that he's somehow weak, and more to illustrate that protecting and serving him has more than one dimension to it - you have to be more than just a hired sword. Elice may be doing Marth a slight disservice by bringing up a few more sensitive details to this random recruit, but she's doing it to demonstrate what they'll have to become rather than just to shittalk Marth.

I'm told that these revisions aren't a perfect 1:1 conversion of the Japanese script, but that it does communicate its essential meaning more accurately. In addition, when we do take such small liberties with the script to help it flow better, we make every effort to incorporate parallelism, foreshadowing, or characterization (Kris ruminating on how legends elevate kings to superhumans foreshadows how Marth will be practically deified by the time of Awakening; Luke's dialogue now incorporates his brash, conceited characterization in Heroes, etc.).

Finally, please note that I am in no way bashing the HoS patch or their work on FE12. I played it and enjoyed it enough to get more involved with the game, obviously, so they clearly did something right. There are just sections here and there that could've used some more polishing, or a second pass-over. Really, our greatest advantage is hindsight, so that we can look over the HoS original with years' worth of people's feedback in mind. In addition, we are using the text editing tools that HoS used (they uploaded them to RH.net), so our work would literally not be possible without the foundation that HoS laid.

Edited by Cirosan

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9 hours ago, Cirosan said:

I'd also like to apologize for the delays. I work very closely with Hero to retranslate the text, and I've been caught up with college graduation, then having to move, and then just now coming down with a stomach bug. It held everything up on my end by a good 3-4 weeks. Normally, we tend to work through the script at a much faster rate, but some life stuff on my end got in the way.

 

However, to give you an idea of what the retranslation is looking like, I'd like to share our retranslation of the conversation between Kris and Elice. This one was a very contentious translation in the original HoS patch, and I believe our revision provides a good sample of what we're doing.

Many people have a distaste for the Avatar in FE12 (Kris/Chris), and how the game's script seems to give them undue importance. I understand where this is coming from, and I think I can speak to it - myself and the project lead, Hero, have been going over the game's script in its entirety, with me sending notes and revisions on what I find to be objectionable, unnatural, ill-toned, or awkward phrases or moments, and Hero giving me extensive translation notes on the original Japanese script.

In particular, for many players, the scene with the Avatar and Elice in Prologue IV comes across as being "Random teenager I don't know, please protect Marth!" We actually had to retranslate that scene almost completely from scratch. So let me show you what's closer to the intention after our revisions, and do some before/after comparisons. First, the original translation, courtesy of Serenes Forest:

 

Elice:
Oh my... You are a junior knight, are you not?

Chris:
Uh, yes. I'm Chris. I came here hoping to become an Altean knight. And you are...?

Elice:
I am Elice. Marth's elder sister.

Chris:
Oh! Prince Marth's elder sister... Please excuse my lack of manners.

Elice:
It's alright. Chris... I think it's very admirable that you've come to help Marth.

Chris:
It is an honor to serve Prince Marth, the Hero King.

Elice:
"The Hero King"... you say? It does seem that our people have grown fond of calling him that. But truth of the matter is that Marth... Marth is just a weak, vulnerable child...

Chris:
Prince Marth is weak...?

Elice:
Yes. Of course, he was the hero who triumphed in the battle against the Shadow Dragon. However, behind his heroic face, Marth is an idealistic child who firmly clings on to his beliefs. And as you too must know, the real world... cannot be saved with just ideals.

Chris:
Yes...

Elice:
Even as we speak, somewhere unknown to us, our peoples' lives are being lost... Marth cannot save those people.

Chris:
Yes, that's true... Even the most excellent of kings is not an omnipotent god. A king is no more than human, and there are limits to the things he can do.

Elice:
Yes. Precisely. Most people realize this and can come to terms with that reality. But Marth cannot do that... He truly thinks that he can save everyone. In war, losing just one companion is unbearable for him... He suppresses his feelings with all his willpower, but I know that inside, his heart breaks and bleeds...

Chris:
......

Elice:
In this cruel world, it will become increasingly difficult for him to continue to hold those ideals... Chris, if some day you should achieve knighthood... Please, protect him somehow and keep his ideals safe...

 

I don't think it's a controversial statement to say that there are some... problems there. Here's my original notes on the scene, since they sum up what I see are the fundamental issues:

It only really clicked for me during this last revision what this scene was supposed to be: a chance meeting with Elice shapes the avatar's thinking, helps them understand Marth, and shows them that they have to share his ethics. When I played this casually, I got a completely different impression - that the avatar had a chance meeting with Elice, who gossiped to them about how secretly weak Marth was. I pictured her as some vengeful specter, wounded from the events of the previous game, walking around and stirring up shit, perhaps with a wine glass dangling limply in her hand. That would have been an interesting way for things to go, sure, but I now understand that it's not what the player was supposed to think at all. Elice's warning also comes across less as "make sure you understand what you're getting yourself into because Marth's code must not be allowed to pass from this world" and more as "look out for my idiot brother because he's going to get himself killed trying to save everyone".

 

And here's our revised script (please note I had to convert this from how the game handles internal coding with an automated program, so there may be some small typographical errors as the result of the conversion):

MS204_ED3_1_PCF1:

ELICE enters

ELICE: Oh my... You are a squire, are you not?

AVATAR: Ah, yes. I'm AVATAR. I came here hoping to become an Altean knight. And you are...?

ELICE: I am Elice. Marth's elder sister.

AVATAR: Oh! Prince Marth's elder sister... Please excuse my lack of manners.

ELICE: It's alright, AVATAR... I think it's very admirable that you've come to help Marth.

AVATAR: It is an honor to serve Prince Marth, the Hero-King.

ELICE: "Hero-King," you say...? It does seem that the people have grown fond of calling him that. But the truth of the matter is that Marth... Marth is a thoughtful, sensitive young man.

MS204_ED3_2_PCF1:

AVATAR: Prince Marth is sensitive...?

ELICE: You misunderstand. That does not diminish Marth's accomplishments. Marth will always be the hero of the War of Shadows--yet he will always be a man who holds firmly to his ideals, as well. Listen well, squire: empathy is no weakness. Even so, there are times when ideals collide with reality, and a choice must be made.

AVATAR: I... see.

ELICE: Even as we speak, somewhere unknown to us, innocent lives are being lost. No king can be everywhere, save everyone. Marth is no god--but to be worthy of the title "Hero-King," he believes he must hold himself to the standards of one.

AVATAR: You're right... No matter how excellent a king, he is not almighty. No ruler is. With all the stories about them, it's easy to forget that kings are still just human.

ELICE: Ah, now you're beginning to understand. Most people accept this fact, and temper their ideals to suit reality. But he cannot do that. He truly must save everyone. If he fails even one friend, one comrade, one innocent... it is unbearable to him. He can hide it if he must, but loss weighs upon him heavily, and Marth's heart is no stranger to regret...

AVATAR: ......

ELICE: In this harsh world, it will be difficult for him to keep hold of those virtues... but keep hold he must. If you truly wish to be among Marth's knights, you must do more than protect the man--you must protect his ideals. For Marth to lose his ideals would be worse than losing his life.

 

There are two key differences in the revision: firstly, that Elice isn't a vengeful gossip-monger anymore. She was bizarrely hostile to Marth in the original, and it wasn't clear why. Secondly, the player isn't special - they're not being charged to protect his life, they're being told that if they are going to be his knight, they can't just fight well, they have to learn to share Marth's code of ethics. Elice is less asking a random stranger for help than she is bumping in to a raw recruit and making sure they know exactly what they're getting themselves into.

Her examples of Marth's refusal to compromise are less to demonstrate that he's somehow weak, and more to illustrate that protecting and serving him has more than one dimension to it - you have to be more than just a hired sword. Elice may be doing Marth a slight disservice by bringing up a few more sensitive details to this random recruit, but she's doing it to demonstrate what they'll have to become rather than just to shittalk Marth.

I'm told that these revisions aren't a perfect 1:1 conversion of the Japanese script, but that it does communicate its essential meaning more accurately. In addition, when we do take such small liberties with the script to help it flow better, we make every effort to incorporate parallelism, foreshadowing, or characterization (Kris ruminating on how legends elevate kings to superhumans foreshadows how Marth will be practically deified by the time of Awakening; Luke's dialogue now incorporates his brash, conceited characterization in Heroes, etc.).

Finally, please note that I am in no way bashing the HoS patch or their work on FE12. I played it and enjoyed it enough to get more involved with the game, obviously, so they clearly did something right. There are just sections here and there that could've used some more polishing, or a second pass-over. Really, our greatest advantage is hindsight, so that we can look over the HoS original with years' worth of people's feedback in mind. In addition, we are using the text editing tools that HoS used (they uploaded them to RH.net), so our work would literally not be possible without the foundation that HoS laid.

Neat. Sadly, the problem is still that the game is very much catering to treating the Avatar as someone that's so special in the end. But that's likely because it was the very first Avatar that's playable.

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The Avatar in FE12, a remake of FE3, a game directed by Kaga, a man who has openly stated in an interview that self inserts in his games will never happen, so haphazardly throwing one into 12 is always going to be offensive, always. This is an objective fact. It'd be like making Metal Gear Solid a generic 3rd person shooter with little stealth and zombies, oh wait. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter *how much* you rewrite FE12, unless you completely remove Kris, like entirely remove him from existence, this game's writing will continue to be the most offensive thing from a writing standpoint the series has ever done. I appreciate the attempt to make that scene work, the problem is, if you respect Shouzou Kaga at all, this scene, or any other with Kris fundamentally cannot work by the nature of Kris being a self insert avatar in the *remake* of a game created by Kaga.  

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28 minutes ago, MCProductions said:

The Avatar in FE12, a remake of FE3, a game directed by Kaga, a man who has openly stated in an interview that self inserts in his games will never happen, so haphazardly throwing one into 12 is always going to be offensive, always. This is an objective fact. It'd be like making Metal Gear Solid a generic 3rd person shooter with little stealth and zombies, oh wait. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter *how much* you rewrite FE12, unless you completely remove Kris, like entirely remove him from existence, this game's writing will continue to be the most offensive thing from a writing standpoint the series has ever done. I appreciate the attempt to make that scene work, the problem is, if you respect Shouzou Kaga at all, this scene, or any other with Kris fundamentally cannot work by the nature of Kris being a self insert avatar in the *remake* of a game created by Kaga.  

The thing is, as much respect as most of us - myself included - have for Kaga and what he created, he hasn't worked on the Fire Emblem series for over 15 years. For most of us, that's longer than we've even known what Fire Emblem was. The series has moved on beyond him and his thoughts. While an interesting insight into how these games came to be, his words should no longer be taken as gospel. He left the series and moved on to do other things. I don't see why people have a hard time letting Fire Emblem doing the same to him. 

Edited by TriforceP

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8 minutes ago, TriforceP said:

The thing is, as much respect as most of us - myself included - have for Kaga and what he created, he hasn't worked on the Fire Emblem series for over 15 years. For most of us, that's longer than we've even known what Fire Emblem was. The series has moved on beyond him and his thoughts. While an interesting insight into how these games came to be, his words should no longer be taken as gospel. He left the series and moved on to do other things. I don't see why people have a hard time letting Fire Emblem doing the same to him. 

There's a reason I don't mind Robin or even Corrin as much as I do Kris, despite them being worse implemented as self inserts than Kris, FE13 and  14 are *not remakes* and as such, they can move past the original creator's philosophies especially given the time gap. FE12, being a remake of 3, does not have that luxury, as anything it does the creators of the original would not have done, there's a difference between would not and could not, is something *also* should not do, unless you have no respect whatsoever fro the author of what your remaking and are willing to spite their efforts for the sake of the feature they have stated to be a bad idea, which if you are willing to do that, fine, but don't get shocked when people like me take offense to the remake's actions and consider it the worst version of the product due entirely to what comes to across  as malicious intent. 12 as a remake does exactly this with Kris, and say what you will about the rest of the game, I still don't like it, I can not view how Kris was implemented, regardless of anything else, as not highly offensive, and the only way to fix this is to remove him entirely. or not make 12 a remake in the first place. I would be singing a very different tune about Kris if 12 was not a remake of a Kaga game, but 12 is exactly that, and instead of doing a remake's job, it adds things the original knew were bad ideas, and just comes across as hostile to people who actually respect the original team's writing style/intentions.

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1 minute ago, MCProductions said:

There's a reason I don't mind Robin or even Corrin as much as I do Kris, despite them being worse implemented as self inserts than Kris, FE13 and  14 are *not remakes* and as such, they can move past the original creator's philosophies especially given the time gap. FE12, being a remake of 3, does not have that luxury, as anything it does the creators of the original would not have done, there's a difference between would not and could not, is something *also* should not do, unless you have no respect whatsoever fro the author of what your remaking and are willing to spite their efforts for the sake of the feature they have stated to be a bad idea, which if you are willing to do that, fine, but don't get shocked when people like me take offense to the remake's actions and consider it the worst version of the product due entirely to what comes to across  as malicious intent. 12 as a remake does exactly this with Kris, and say what you will about the rest of the game, I still don't like it, I can not view how Kris was implemented, regardless of anything else, as not highly offensive, and the only way to fix this is to remove him entirely. or not make 12 a remake in the first place. I would be singing a very different tune about Kris if 12 was not a remake of a Kaga game, but 12 is exactly that, and instead of doing a remake's job, it adds things the original knew were bad ideas, and just comes across as hostile to people who actually respect the original team's writing style/intentions.

The point of a remake isn't to have the exact same game. The point of a remake is to change, update, and better the source material to fit the times of the remake. We shouldn't be basing 12 entirely on how similar to 3 because that wasn't what it was made to be, nor should it have been. With that logic every remake should be Psycho 1998. We should always take Kaga's beliefs and thoughts into account, but we should also remember that this is no longer his game. It's based on his game, but it's not.

If you want an example of when this could be a good thing, consider The Shining. That classic horror film. Stephen King, who wrote the original book, hated it because of how different it was from the original. However, most people enjoy the adaptation better, even if it wasn't exactly what the original creator wanted. I still respect Stephen King and his beliefs, but I acknowledge that he isn't perfect, nor is his original work, and that it could be improved, even in ways he may not have wanted. I think the same of Kaga. He did great work, he had a vision for the game, but his vision should, at this point, be taken the same as everything else in 3 - as an inspiration, not a rule. 

That said, we should really move this discussion elsewhere. Your argument isn't about the patch -  you yourself even admitted that they were doing the best they could with an inherently flawed concept. Your argument is more against the entire concept of 12 itself, which really deserves its own thread to discuss. Let's not derail this one. Last reply I'll personally have on the subject here, but if you wanna make another thread on the subject, tag me and I'll stop by and say hi. 

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On 6/3/2018 at 11:35 AM, omegaxis1 said:

I'm told that these revisions aren't a perfect 1:1 conversion of the Japanese script, but that it does communicate its essential meaning more accurately. In addition, when we do take such small liberties with the script to help it flow better, we make every effort to incorporate parallelism, foreshadowing, or characterization (Kris ruminating on how legends elevate kings to superhumans foreshadows how Marth will be practically deified by the time of Awakening; Luke's dialogue now incorporates his brash, conceited characterization in Heroes, etc.).

The only way for the script to be 1:1 is to keep it in Japanese. :rolleyes:

That said, localization is...controversial, to say the least, thanks to certain companies trying to scrub their scripts (and other content) clean. In this case, however, you all are giving FE12 all the TLC it needs and trying to deliver something great to the fans. It's actually kind of jarring how different the two translations presented are despite trying to deliver the same message. It really shows how important prose is in English text. The first translation may be easier to read, but it really does lack a lot of the "flavor" the second translation provides.

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14 minutes ago, Cor Leonis said:

The only way for the script to be 1:1 is to keep it in Japanese. :rolleyes:

That said, localization is...controversial, to say the least, thanks to certain companies trying to scrub their scripts (and other content) clean. In this case, however, you all are giving FE12 all the TLC it needs and trying to deliver something great to the fans. It's actually kind of jarring how different the two translations presented are despite trying to deliver the same message. It really shows how important prose is in English text. The first translation may be easier to read, but it really does lack a lot of the "flavor" the second translation provides.

Why was I being quoted here? I didn't say that.

21 hours ago, MCProductions said:

There's a reason I don't mind Robin or even Corrin as much as I do Kris, despite them being worse implemented as self inserts than Kris, FE13 and  14 are *not remakes* and as such, they can move past the original creator's philosophies especially given the time gap. FE12, being a remake of 3, does not have that luxury, as anything it does the creators of the original would not have done, there's a difference between would not and could not, is something *also* should not do, unless you have no respect whatsoever fro the author of what your remaking and are willing to spite their efforts for the sake of the feature they have stated to be a bad idea, which if you are willing to do that, fine, but don't get shocked when people like me take offense to the remake's actions and consider it the worst version of the product due entirely to what comes to across  as malicious intent. 12 as a remake does exactly this with Kris, and say what you will about the rest of the game, I still don't like it, I can not view how Kris was implemented, regardless of anything else, as not highly offensive, and the only way to fix this is to remove him entirely. or not make 12 a remake in the first place. I would be singing a very different tune about Kris if 12 was not a remake of a Kaga game, but 12 is exactly that, and instead of doing a remake's job, it adds things the original knew were bad ideas, and just comes across as hostile to people who actually respect the original team's writing style/intentions.

 

21 hours ago, TriforceP said:

The point of a remake isn't to have the exact same game. The point of a remake is to change, update, and better the source material to fit the times of the remake. We shouldn't be basing 12 entirely on how similar to 3 because that wasn't what it was made to be, nor should it have been. With that logic every remake should be Psycho 1998. We should always take Kaga's beliefs and thoughts into account, but we should also remember that this is no longer his game. It's based on his game, but it's not.

If you want an example of when this could be a good thing, consider The Shining. That classic horror film. Stephen King, who wrote the original book, hated it because of how different it was from the original. However, most people enjoy the adaptation better, even if it wasn't exactly what the original creator wanted. I still respect Stephen King and his beliefs, but I acknowledge that he isn't perfect, nor is his original work, and that it could be improved, even in ways he may not have wanted. I think the same of Kaga. He did great work, he had a vision for the game, but his vision should, at this point, be taken the same as everything else in 3 - as an inspiration, not a rule. 

That said, we should really move this discussion elsewhere. Your argument isn't about the patch -  you yourself even admitted that they were doing the best they could with an inherently flawed concept. Your argument is more against the entire concept of 12 itself, which really deserves its own thread to discuss. Let's not derail this one. Last reply I'll personally have on the subject here, but if you wanna make another thread on the subject, tag me and I'll stop by and say hi. 

I can understand where both of you are coming from. It is true that putting the first Avatar in a remake of another game prior is not really the best idea. New characters, sure. I love Katarina and Clarisse, and Legion is unique as well. But Kris being the Avatar is a big problem.

However, even in the potential of another remake, Kris cannot be erased from existence. Or rather, he shouldn't be erased. This is because he exists now, and he's been referenced enough times that he's canon to the franchise. 

If and when Kris comes back for a remake, I would prefer if the story did not have Kris take so much of the spotlight at all. 

Rather my idea is that Kris is only relevant in regards to the Prologue when he joins the Altean Knights and the Gaiden chapters, which is tied into the Prologue as well. The Gaiden chapters can easily be Kris' story, and the main story is all Marth's. Kris can at best have one line of dialogue, but preferably Kris has to be the one that nods and goes along with others, as opposed to how I feel that it's Marth that nods and goes along with what Kris says. Cause Kris does so much of the talking.

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13 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Why was I being quoted here? I didn't say that.

Because my dumb ass quoted your quote instead of the actual quote. Please disregard. :facepalm:

Edited by Cor Leonis

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46 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

 Kris can at best have one line of dialogue, but preferably Kris has to be the one that nods and goes along with others.

I'm not trying to be insulting here, but I think that would be a terrible idea. The entire point of having a self-insert avatar in a game is to allow the player to feel that they are part of the story; that their decisions are having an impact on the game's plot, even if it is just an illusory impact created by the writers. Making Kris a "silent protagonist" (or nearly silent), would defeat the entire purpose of an avatar character.  Kris should and must have a significant role in the story of any remake of 12; taking that away would take away the feeling of inclusion that a self-insert provides to the player. 

That said, I do think that Kris' role in the plot should be refined so that he doesn't make Marth look Insignificant - Marth is the hero of the story after all, and that should be apparent in the game's dialogue.

Edited by GamerX51
Point clarification.

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56 minutes ago, GamerX51 said:

I'm not trying to be insulting here, but I think that would be a terrible idea. The entire point of having a self-insert avatar in a game is to allow the player to feel that they are part of the story; that their decisions are having an impact on the game's plot, even if it is just an illusory impact created by the writers. Making Kris a "silent protagonist" (or nearly silent), would defeat the entire purpose of an avatar character.  Kris should and must have a significant role in the story of any remake of 12; taking that away would take away the feeling of inclusion that a self-insert provides to the player. 

That said, I do think that Kris' role in the plot should be refined so that he doesn't make Marth look Insignificant - Marth is the hero of the story after all, and that should be apparent in the game's dialogue.

I do think you should probably wait until the patch is released; as it turns out, the older translation inadvertently amped up the Gary Stuness of the avatar by a great deal in the prologue alone, before we’ve even gotten into the rest of the game. I’d probably wait to analyze Kris’s role compared to Marth again once we can put this out, because even at the bare minimum the more correct “one of my royal guards” is already a hell of a lot less Stuish than “my one and only Royal Guard who is the awesome one and only” that the older translation somehow (and inconsistently) got

 

FE12 is really, really focused on Marth; Kris is pretty largely someone who Marth is propped up on (with Kris being among Lucina in the list of Marth fanclub presidents), but the older translation seems to unintentionally make this seem the other way around 90% of the time. Even in the prologue alone, 2 very important conversations concerning Marth had to be redone or completely retranslated from scratch because of how off the mark they were tonally speaking.

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems

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52 minutes ago, GamerX51 said:

Not trying to sound snappish here, but I think that would be a terrible idea. The entire point of having a self-insert avatar in a game is to allow the player to feel that they are part of the story; that their decisions are having an impact on the game's plot. Making Kris a "silent protagonist" (or nearly silent), would defeat the entire purpose of an avatar character.  Kris should and must have a significant role in the story of any remake of 12; taking that away would take away the feeling of inclusion that a self-insert provides to the player. 

That said, I do think that Kris' role in the plot should be refined so that he doesn't make Marth look Insignificant - He is the hero of the story, after all.

Just an example I was saying, but I meant more like Kris was taking a lot of dialogues that other people say from FE3 and Marth seems to be helpless at times without Kris, or Kris is the first one that pops into Marth's mind at danger. Would prefer if Kris doesn't become the center of attention to characters so often or take dialogue from others. Maybe Kris can have added lines that are his own, rather than taking them from others. 

2 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

I do think you should probably wait until the patch is released; as it turns out, the older translation inadvertently amped up the Gary Stuness of the avatar by a great deal in the prologue alone, before we’ve even gotten into the rest of the game. I’d probably wait to analyze Kris’s role compared to Marth again once we can put this out, because even at the bare minimum the more correct “one of my royal guards” is already a hell of a lot less Stuish than “my one and only Royal Guard who is the awesome one and only” that the older translation somehow (and inconsistently) got

It does indeed. Perhaps the new translation would help with what I just said, with Marth thinking of Kris so much.

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29 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

I do think you should probably wait until the patch is released; as it turns out, the older translation inadvertently amped up the Gary Stuness of the avatar by a great deal in the prologue alone, before we’ve even gotten into the rest of the game. I’d probably wait to analyze Kris’s role compared to Marth again once we can put this out, because even at the bare minimum the more correct “one of my royal guards” is already a hell of a lot less Stuish than “my one and only Royal Guard who is the awesome one and only” that the older translation somehow (and inconsistently) got

 

FE12 is really, really focused on Marth; Kris is pretty largely someone who Marth is propped up on (with Kris being among Lucina in the list of Marth fanclub presidents), but the older translation seems to unintentionally make this seem the other way around 90% of the time. Even in the prologue alone, 2 very important conversations concerning Marth had to be redone or completely retranslated from scratch because of how off the mark they were tonally speaking.

Having played the game in Japanese, I legitimately can't disagree more. FE12 is Kris' game start to finish, Kris is the protagonist of 12, Marth is an important character but still plays second fiddle to the Avatar Kris, to the point where Marth is NOT EVEN PRESENT in plot crucial scenes in the remake where he was in the original, such as when the characters learn the truth of Archenea's history. There's many reasons I consider Kris the biggest sin FE has ever done, and the butchering of Marth's character and FE3's themes are big reasons why.

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48 minutes ago, MCProductions said:

Having played the game in Japanese, I legitimately can't disagree more. FE12 is Kris' game start to finish, Kris is the protagonist of 12, Marth is an important character but still plays second fiddle to the Avatar Kris, to the point where Marth is NOT EVEN PRESENT in plot crucial scenes in the remake where he was in the original, such as when the characters learn the truth of Archenea's history. There's many reasons I consider Kris the biggest sin FE has ever done, and the butchering of Marth's character and FE3's themes are big reasons why.

Learning the truth of Archanea’s history is literally exclusively between Marth and Xane/Gotoh in the remake during those segments. I am fairly certain you are confused. The only thing Kris is told are things everyone already knows, mainly the Anri legend which everyone and their mother except Kris seems to know in Altea (I.E. things which would be overly redundant to be told to Marth, like that scene in FE11 where he has to chide Malledus "Is that what this was all about? I do know my own country's history, Malledus"). Kris doesn’t get taken aside by xane or Gotoh at any point and told some super exclusive information (shit, Xane actually mocks the avatar and dupes them into wearing a pointless Headdress because he thought it’d be hilarious, and that outside of their supports and the first meeting when he’s disguised as Tiki is the extent of their interactions).

come to think, I don’t think Gotoh and the avatar ever even speak to each other.

 

we spend literal days on each individual chapter (once I think we went up to a week and a half on one specific chapter) with meticulous cross referencing between up to 5 localized games at once, retranslation with multiple Japanese proofreaders having it run by, and Cirosan’s expertise in the English language being applied. I again say to wait until the patch is done, and I do hope the amount of effort in the result ends up being appreciated.

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems

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As I said last night, this is not the place to discuss the merits or demerits of FE12. This thread is for the discussion of the patch. Make another thread to discuss it. Obviously there's people on both sides who would love to debate. Call it whatever you want, just please move all this to a thread specifically for this so as not to damage the reputation of the patch and it's team unfairly. They didn't get to choose what was in the game. They just get to choose how they present it.

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9 hours ago, TriforceP said:

Call it whatever you want, just please move all this to a thread specifically for this so as not to damage the reputation of the patch and it's team unfairly. They didn't get to choose what was in the game. They just get to choose how they present it.

Well said. I agree completely, and as far as I'm concerned, this is my last word on the matter: I firmly believe that our revisions communicate the sentiment of the original text more accurately, and in so doing, go a long way towards correcting the script's over-emphasizing of the avatar. Until the patch is released and everyone can judge our work in its full context, there's no point in arguing about the avatar further and dragging this thread - and our team - down with an internet slapfight.

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11 hours ago, Cirosan said:

Well said. I agree completely, and as far as I'm concerned, this is my last word on the matter: I firmly believe that our revisions communicate the sentiment of the original text more accurately, and in so doing, go a long way towards correcting the script's over-emphasizing of the avatar. Until the patch is released and everyone can judge our work in its full context, there's no point in arguing about the avatar further and dragging this thread - and our team - down with an internet slapfight.

I can agree to that as well. I would like to see how the more accurate translation handles the story. Perhaps it does improve the quality overall.

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3 hours ago, Gah, norwegian supermodel said:

Great post, but i have a question

 

How do you use the Bonus chapters that come with the emulator (the downloable ones), i have a Desmume but i can´t acces to it

Use the "import backup memory" option in Desmume to load the save. You have to do this before starting your own new game, however.

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On 03/06/2018 at 6:51 AM, Cirosan said:

There are two key differences in the revision: firstly, that Elice isn't a vengeful gossip-monger anymore. She was bizarrely hostile to Marth in the original, and it wasn't clear why. Secondly, the player isn't special - they're not being charged to protect his life, they're being told that if they are going to be his knight, they can't just fight well, they have to learn to share Marth's code of ethics. Elice is less asking a random stranger for help than she is bumping in to a raw recruit and making sure they know exactly what they're getting themselves into.

Her examples of Marth's refusal to compromise are less to demonstrate that he's somehow weak, and more to illustrate that protecting and serving him has more than one dimension to it - you have to be more than just a hired sword. Elice may be doing Marth a slight disservice by bringing up a few more sensitive details to this random recruit, but she's doing it to demonstrate what they'll have to become rather than just to shittalk Marth.

I'm told that these revisions aren't a perfect 1:1 conversion of the Japanese script, but that it does communicate its essential meaning more accurately. In addition, when we do take such small liberties with the script to help it flow better, we make every effort to incorporate parallelism, foreshadowing, or characterization (Kris ruminating on how legends elevate kings to superhumans foreshadows how Marth will be practically deified by the time of Awakening; Luke's dialogue now incorporates his brash, conceited characterization in Heroes, etc.).

Finally, please note that I am in no way bashing the HoS patch or their work on FE12. I played it and enjoyed it enough to get more involved with the game, obviously, so they clearly did something right. There are just sections here and there that could've used some more polishing, or a second pass-over. Really, our greatest advantage is hindsight, so that we can look over the HoS original with years' worth of people's feedback in mind. In addition, we are using the text editing tools that HoS used (they uploaded them to RH.net), so our work would literally not be possible without the foundation that HoS laid.

She actually sounds kind of condescending and superior now (which doesn't fit her at all), the original isn't really that gossip mongering. That said it did have flaws, the main issue it had was the assumption of Kris becoming one of Marth's knights. Though... Given the setting of the prologue that wasn't entirely weird.

EDIT: Not an issue with the Avatar/Kris thing, more focused on the actual dialogue. Attached below is how I'd tackle it personally:

Spoiler

 

MS204_ED3_1_PCF1:

ELICE enters

ELICE: Oh my... You are one of the squires, are you not?

AVATAR: Ah, yes. I'm AVATAR. I came here hoping to become an Altean knight. And you are...?

ELICE: I am Elice. Marth's elder sister.

AVATAR: Oh! Prince Marth's elder sister... Please excuse my lack of manners.

ELICE: It's alright, AVATAR... I think it's very admirable that you've come to help Marth.

AVATAR: It is an honor to serve Prince Marth, the Hero-King.

ELICE: "Hero-King," you say...? It does seem that the people have grown fond of calling him that. But the truth of the matter is that Marth... Marth is still an idealistic young man.

MS204_ED3_2_PCF1:

AVATAR: Prince Marth is idealistic...?

ELICE: Yes, but that does not diminish Marth's accomplishments. Marth will always be the hero of the War of Shadows--yet he will always be a man who holds firmly to his ideals, as well. Still, AVATAR that is no weakness. Instead there are times when ideals collide with reality, and a choice must be made.

AVATAR: I... see.

ELICE: Even as we speak, somewhere unknown to us, innocent lives are being lost. Sadly not even the "Hero-King" can be everywhere, save everyone. Marth is no god--but to be worthy of the title "Hero-King," he believes he must hold himself to the standards of one.

AVATAR: You're right... No matter how excellent a king, he is not almighty. No ruler is. With all the stories of the "Hero-King", it's easy to forget that kings are still just human.

ELICE: Ah, now you're beginning to understand. Most people accept this fact, and temper their ideals to suit reality. But Marth cannot do that. He truly must save everyone. If he fails even one friend, one comrade, one innocent... It is unbearable to him. He can hide it if he must, but any loss weighs upon him heavily, and Marth's heart is no stranger to regret...

AVATAR: ......

ELICE: In this harsh world, it will be difficult for him to keep hold of those virtues... Still though he holds himself to such ideals. AVATAR, if you truly wish to be among Marth's knights, you must do more than protect the man--you must protect his ideals. For  without his ideals for would be no "Hero-King" and for Marth failing to hold true to his ideals would be worse than losing his life.

 

Overall, yours feels better I just made a few changes based on how I'd tackle it. Mostly making it more personal and adding a slightly deeper (in my eyes) connection for the player.

Edited by Valkeir

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47 minutes ago, Valkeir said:

She actually sounds kind of condescending and superior now (which doesn't fit her at all), the original isn't really that gossip mongering. That said it did have flaws, the main issue it had was the assumption of the Avatar becoming one of Marth's knights. Though... Given the setting of the prologue that wasn't entirely weird.

Is that how she sounds to you from the new translation? I would suggest that she sounds wise and noble, which by all means she is supposed to be, given that she is a princess. Here, Elice is trying to help Kris understand Marth so that he becomes wiser about Marth's ideals. People easily get the wrong impression based on stories. Look at how Lucina is such a Marth fangirl because of how she uses the stories of Marth to give herself morale. She never realized that Marth was still very much human, rather than the "fierce, unforgiving man who struck fear in friend and foe alike!"

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15 minutes ago, omegaxis1 said:

Is that how she sounds to you from the new translation? I would suggest that she sounds wise and noble, which by all means she is supposed to be, given that she is a princess. Here, Elice is trying to help Kris understand Marth so that he becomes wiser about Marth's ideals. People easily get the wrong impression based on stories. Look at how Lucina is such a Marth fangirl because of how she uses the stories of Marth to give herself morale. She never realized that Marth was still very much human, rather than the "fierce, unforgiving man who struck fear in friend and foe alike!"

It feels like she's talking down to the player rather than trying to build a rapport with someone she wants guarding her brother, hence the slight tweaks I felt made it more personal and investing.

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14 minutes ago, Valkeir said:

It feels like she's talking down to the player rather than trying to build a rapport with someone she wants guarding her brother, hence the slight tweaks I felt made it more personal and investing.

How? It really doesn't sound like she's belittling anyone. The first translation definitely made her sound like she was belittling someone, that being Marth. Now she's less belittling and more informing.

I guess it's a matter of perspective.

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