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Updated FE12 translation patch (Beta 2 released!)

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On 15/02/2017 at 9:31 PM, RedEyedDrake said:

I'm going to have to disagree with the notion of changing "Heroes of Light and Shadow" into "New Mystery of the Emblem". The former is more in line with the titles "Shadow Dragon" and "Shadows of Valentia" and, given that all three games take place over a comparatively short period of time, I think that all three having similar names would be more fitting. We can even refer to them as 'the Shadow Saga/Trilogy' if we want to.

I would like to note that "New Mystery of the Emblem" is the official localisation of the game's title, as seen on the Heroes character poll website*. If  that's being used as a source for character names, it seems inconsistent not to use it for the actual name of the game.

*Check out Marth in 33rd place here: https://events.fire-emblem-heroes.com/vote/result?overall=1

Edited by Seafarer

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I honestly wouldn't be opposed to changing the subtitle to "New Mystery of the Emblem", but at the same time it just feels kind of bland and you lose the connection with Shadow Dragon and Shadows of Valentia as mentioned.

It's too bad we couldn't fit both. I mean, you could potentially expand the graphics or something and have both, but I have a bad feeling that would make the title screen bloated, so it's probably one or the other.

Also, I'm kind of "eh" about changing "Temple Knights". I know it's a pretty camp name, but it's not like the game doesn't have its fair share of nonsensical stuff. If anything, I think nonsensical stuff is charming.

Then again, we did go from Wolf Knights to Wolfguard, so maybe change would be good.

Edited by VincentASM

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@Sea:

I was perfectly aware of that when I wrote that post. However, erasing the "Heroes of Light and Shadow" part would mean that it won't appear anywhere at all in the game on top of breaking the theme naming.

Also, when determining the official English name for FE4 the people in charge of that kept the term "Holy War" instead of going with the more organic sounding "Crusade". Think about that for a minute.

@Vincet:

The term just reeks of Engrish to me, hence my suggestion.

@joe:

By the way, you don't have to exclude the term 'country' entirely. Using once or maybe twice is fine (if spaced out enough or if both uses come from a single conversation). Just not too often.

Additionally, 'the' in reference to the names of locations isn't supposed to be capitalized.

Edited by RedEyedDrake

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9 hours ago, RedEyedDrake said:

I was perfectly aware of that when I wrote that post. However, erasing the "Heroes of Light and Shadow" part would mean that it won't appear anywhere at all in the game on top of breaking the theme naming.

Also, when determining the official English name for FE4 the people in charge of that kept the term "Holy War" instead of going with the more organic sounding "Crusade". Think about that for a minute.

Eh. My vote will always be for consistency with official media above all. Not sure how "Crusade" is more organic than "Holy War", though, especially since the latter gives a better rhythm (well, I prefer it). And honestly, when you think about it, the name is just weird anyway - holy wars don't have genealogies. It's basically combining things that matter in the game in a way that doesn't really parse in English. Global Descent of Jihad is best translation.

Edited by Seafarer

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How does it not? "Crusade" is an actual word. Meanwhile, is "holy war" an actual term that people use in some context or another? Like, at all?

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Um... yes? The term "holy war" predates the Crusades (note the capitalisation) - indeed, the Crusades were a series of holy wars declared by the Pope. A holy war is a war motivated by religion. "Crusade", on the other hand, has broadened in meaning to refer to pretty much any ideologically-fuelled movement. Buuut this is getting off-topic, and I don't want eclipse to snap at me again.

..So, how about that New Mystery, huh?

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I believe it's worth considering changing the Binding Shield's name to the Sealing Shield, as the same shield appears in Monster Hunter Generations (along with Marth and his Lodestar set) and is localized as such.

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I doubt that actual employees who work on the Fire Emblem frachise were involved in that.

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37 minutes ago, Prince of Iris said:

I believe it's worth considering changing the Binding Shield's name to the Sealing Shield, as the same shield appears in Monster Hunter Generations (along with Marth and his Lodestar set) and is localized as such.

Wait, is it really called Sealing Shield in the English version of Monster Hunter Generations? I haven't played that game nor played any of the Monster Hunter games.

Edited by King Marth 64

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32 minutes ago, King Marth 64 said:

Wait, is it really called Sealing Shield in the English version of Monster Hunter Generations? I haven't played that game.

Yep, Sealing Shield is the name used for it in the English version of the game. I don't have a screenshot, but you can find the data for the material named after it on Kiranico, which is a Monster Hunter resource site. The shield itself, which comes with the Falchion, takes after the emblem as it appears with all of the orbs, which you can see in the diagram included here. There's no mistaking that it's supposed to represent what we understand as the Binding Shield, or Shield of Seals.

I mention this because I'm pretty sure this is the first and only instance that the name of the completed shield has ever appeared in a game officially released in English. I suppose one could argue that the name isn't necessarily official by virtue of the fact that Monster Hunter is not by Nintendo or Intelligent Systems but is a third party game by Capcom, but at the same time, it was localized by the same group of people who localized Shadow Dragon and Awakening, 8-4.

I would personally prefer Sealing Shield being used in the translation since it is decidedly more genuine, as it certainly isn't a fan name unlike Binding Shield which I believe was coined specifically for the Heroes of Shadow project.

Edited by Prince of Iris

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12 minutes ago, Prince of Iris said:

Yep, Sealing Shield is the name used for it in the English version of the game. I don't have a screenshot, but you can find the data for the material named after it on Kiranico, which is a Monster Hunter resource site. The shield itself, which comes with the Falchion, takes after the emblem as it appears with all of the orbs, which you can see in the diagram included here. There's no mistaking that it's supposed to represent what we understand as the Binding Shield, or Shield of Seals.

I mention this because I'm pretty sure this is the first and only instance that the name of the completed shield has ever appeared in a game officially released in English. I suppose one could argue that the name isn't necessarily official by virtue of the fact that Monster Hunter is not by Nintendo or Intelligent Systems but is a third party game by Capcom, but at the same time, it was localized by the same group of people who localized Shadow Dragon and Awakening, 8-4.

I would personally prefer Sealing Shield being used in the translation since it is decidedly more genuine, as it certainly isn't a fan name unlike Binding Shield which I believe was coined specifically for the Heroes of Shadow project.

Given that Monster Hunter Generations wasn't developed by Nintendo/IS, I don't think Sealing Shield is any more official than Binding Shield.

I personally prefer Binding Shield. I guess I'm just used the name, and I hate the alliterative 's' in Sealing Shield. It's so hard to say :(

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19 minutes ago, Fly_or_Die said:

Given that Monster Hunter Generations wasn't developed by Nintendo/IS, I don't think Sealing Shield is any more official than Binding Shield.

I personally prefer Binding Shield. I guess I'm just used the name, and I hate the alliterative 's' in Sealing Shield. It's so hard to say :(

Actually, I do recall that Binding Shield was a made up fan name. But, I think I might remembered correctly that they might have been using that idea to come up with that name from Binding Blade since Roy is from Elibe and Marth is from Archanea, which The Binding Blade didn't have any relationship with Archanea.

Edited by King Marth 64

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I personally like the alliterative parallel created between Binding Blade and Sealing Shield. I think the names being more distinguished this way helps provide more clarity that they are not related. That said, I can understand why Binding Shield was coined and respect that, though I still prefer Sealing Shield.

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The word that is used for 'binding' is the exact same word in Japanese for both items. And the official English name for Roy's sword is 'the Binding Blade'.

Edited by RedEyedDrake

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On 2/20/2017 at 6:56 AM, RedEyedDrake said:

The word that is used for 'binding' is the exact same word in Japanese for both items. And the official English name for Roy's sword is 'the Binding Blade'.

Localizations do not and should not strictly follow this kind of translation methodology. Focus less on using exact words and more on conveying ideas in the most appropriate contexts for your audience.

There is nothing wrong with the name Sealing Shield. It is a perfectly valid translation of the emblem's Japanese name, which is reused in Monster Hunter and is why it was localized as Sealing Shield in the first place. Just because the sword is localized as the Binding Blade does not mean that the emblem must be Binding Shield too. And I argue that Sealing Shield is a better name than Binding Shield specifically because it is more distinct (i.e., it more clearly distinguishes that they are not connected to each other by not using the same word) while also having the charm of the alliterative.

That said, Binding Shield is fine also, but because it doesn't really have anything going for it, I don't see why it should have to be used over Sealing Shield, which at least has the advantage of actually appearing in an English game (and the name was coined by the same people who localized Shadow Dragon and Awakening, no less), even if it isn't Fire Emblem.

Edited by Prince of Iris

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Monster Hunter is one of Capcom's franchises. Meaning that the source for this name is an outside one and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. And besides, FE6 is pretty much a copypaste-mashup of FE1 and FE3. The name 'Bindling Blade' is supposed to be a callback to the name 'Binding Shield'. Roy's sword was made non-distinct on purpose.

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Naming consistency between games (in the English translations) is really, really hit and miss. So I don't think we absolutely need to have Binding Shield because there's a Binding Blade.

I mean we already have stuff like Wyvern Riders versus Dracoknights, plus too many variants of the Knight Killer for me to remember.

That said, I dunno if the localisation team for MHG had much direction from the Fire Emblem team (or if they're the same team?). I don't really want to see a repeat of Smash Bros. where some names (thankfully) got tossed in the trash.

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4 hours ago, RedEyedDrake said:

Monster Hunter is one of Capcom's franchises. Meaning that the source for this name is an outside one and thus should be taken with a grain of salt. And besides, FE6 is pretty much a copypaste-mashup of FE1 and FE3. The name 'Bindling Blade' is supposed to be a callback to the name 'Binding Shield'. Roy's sword was made non-distinct on purpose.

To be fair, Binding Shield is also a name that has had zero use anywhere but for the unofficial translation and thus is no less of an outside source, as it does not come from Nintendo or Intelligent Systems either. If anything, I feel inclined to say Sealing Shield ought to carry a bit more weight simply because of that difference: that it's actually seen non-fan use, and it's unlikely Nintendo/IS weren't okay with it by being involved with the collaboration. Again, both names are totally valid interpretations of the emblem's name, and I get why Binding Shield was used, but I wouldn't say Sealing Shield has less merit than it.

And I am aware of the similarities between the two items; they're both ultimate tools obtained by the main protagonists used to seal away dragons, and that I imagine is probably intentional. Even so, they don't need to share such similar names to illustrate that they're an archetype. Sealing Shield still perfectly describes what the emblem does, just as Binding Blade still perfectly describes what the sword does, even though they do the same thing.

There's nothing lost by using Sealing Shield over Binding Shield because the meaning doesn't change and is still understood to be the same. So at least by keeping it as Sealing Shield, you can still see the connection with nuance while still having it be distinguished enough to not encourage others from thinking they are more related beyond that.

4 hours ago, VincentASM said:

Naming consistency between games (in the English translations) is really, really hit and miss. So I don't think we absolutely need to have Binding Shield because there's a Binding Blade.

I mean we already have stuff like Wyvern Riders versus Dracoknights, plus too many variants of the Knight Killer for me to remember.

That said, I dunno if the localisation team for MHG had much direction from the Fire Emblem team (or if they're the same team?). I don't really want to see a repeat of Smash Bros. where some names (thankfully) got tossed in the trash.

Yeah, that's very true. I remember the stranger names like Rutoga (Rutger) and Nabaaru (Navarre) that I don't think anyone adhered to despite being the only English names we had just because they were pretty odd in their own right, and in those cases I see that being justified. However, I hope it's understood that while I don't think Monster Hunter should be considered like a bible, it is still a notable source and Sealing Shield is a pretty sensible name all around that may be worth considering over Binding Shield. It works out pretty nicely if not better in my opinion.

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This isn't about whether meaning is or isn't lost. It is about using the exact same word on purpose.

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1 hour ago, RedEyedDrake said:

This isn't about whether meaning is or isn't lost. It is about using the exact same word on purpose.

And there is nothing to gain from doing that. There is no reason why it absolutely must be called the Binding Shield. The kana can mean more than just binding, and has been officially localized in past Fire Emblem games to words other than binding. It's never been consistent, so we have no need to be consistent either.

For example, the Shrine of Seals in Blazing Blade uses the same kana as what's localized as the Binding Blade, but the localization of the sword doesn't force itself to call it the Sword of Seals anymore because Binding Blade is just the preferred term now, and is better off for it (in my opinion at least). Likewise, we shouldn't have to call it the Binding Shield just because there is something else called the Binding Blade. Arbitrarily forcing yourself to use particular words in translations like this only hinders the colorful potential of the language that can be provided by localization, and is a disservice to the opportunity of delivering the game to a new audience.

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I agree about the change to Sealing Shield, in my opinion it sounds more fitting.

I would also like to agree about changing the name on the title screen to New Mystery of the Emblem, seeing "Heroes of Light and Shadow" on the title screen feels off to me, while NEW MYSTERY kind of makes more sense in the game. 

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I'd like to use this opportunity to point out that Shadow Dragon used the sort of language that can be said to be the very opposite of an overly literal translation for its script.

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I'm going with Sealing Shield since Binding Shield sounds more like it's related and connected to Binding Blade. Also, I don't see @joesteve1914 mentioned anything about changing the fan name of the game title to official name title (New Mystery of the Emblem) and putting "Avatar" name (I'm not talking about Kris' default name) in the game that we mentioned about.

Edited by King Marth 64

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@64:

Once again, it is supposed to sound like that.

@joe:

Another point I remembered. Does the Japanese script explicitly use the term for 'prince' (or some equivalent) when referring to Marth in this game? Because Marth is most definitely not just a prince at any point over the course of this game, not even in the prologue. He is the acting king of Altea and thus, if the script allows for it, it would make way more sense to have people referring to him as 'my lord/liege/king', 'sire', 'Your Majesty/Grace', ect.  or 'Lord Marth' when someone is talking to him, 'King Marth' when other people are talking about him and, if the need for this one ever comes up, 'King Marth of Altea'.

I mean, it could be that he didn't go through the official ceremony of being crowned just yet but I personally doubt that. Unless the script properly contradicts that, of course.

Edited by RedEyedDrake

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7 hours ago, RedEyedDrake said:

@64:

Once again, it is supposed to sound like that.

@joe:

Another point I remembered. Does the Japanese script explicitly use the term for 'prince' (or some equivalent) when referring to Marth in this game? Because Marth is most definitely not just a prince at any point over the course of this game. He is the acting king of Altea and thus, if the script allows for it, it would make way more sense to have people referring to him as 'my lord', 'lord Marth' or, if the need for this one even comes up, 'king Marth of Altea'.

This is also reflected in FE12 Marth's moniker in FE13 Spotpass, "King Marth". FE11 Marth is distinguished as Prince Marth. So I do think it should be established as being king if it's at all reasonable.

Speaking of king... FE11's localization already uses "Divine Dragon King Naga" in Falchion's description. Consistency with shadow dragon should be priority 1 here since it's literally just the second half of Shadow Dragon and Naga is portrayed as male in FE3 anyway; Naga being genderfluid wouldn't be too outrageous considering a few instances of real life deities are both male and female

 

Also, if Echoes comes out and calls the angel ring the angel band or some shit, will this patch update Est's support conversation where she mentions the angel ring accordingly? It's one of the most prominent Echoes connections in 12 and it's important to keep it intact if the localized name is changed in Echoes

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems

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