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Updated FE12 translation patch (Beta 2 released!)

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20 hours ago, eclipse said:

Polls are REALLY wonky right now - they can be added to new topics, but not for existing ones. Waiting for the back-end stuff to finish (one day) before I bug Jyo about it again.

Alright, cool. 

Like I said I might end up delaying the patch until May anyways, so we'll have plenty of time to discuss this :)

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Do me a favor, and hit me over the head if you don't hear back from me by the end of March.  I might forget!

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On the Naga gender debate

Loki of Norse mythology is regularly said to have taken the form of a woman in addition to a man and even to have had children as a woman

I really do think Naga being both genders isn't too outrageous on account of that, if this is still being debated- but from what I understand Divine Dragon King is non negotiatable on account of Shadow Dragon

Just a minor tidbit I thought I'd throw out there that came to my mind today if it's still relevant (Trying to help the project along however I can)

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@joe:

I've been thinking about point #18 that I've brought up before and I think I came up with a solution.

"Sign", "symbol", "badge", "mark" and "banner" are all words that technically fit but don't sit well with me just like how the word "proof" didn't. "Emblem" and "seal" are out of the question for obvious reasons. And Awakening already referred to the Fire Emblem as a "crest" by using a different word than the one that I think was translated as "proof" so that doesn't work either. So, having gone over synonyms for some of these words, I believe that the word "insignia" is the best fit, all things considered. Therefore, I think that it would be best to have the Fire Emblem be referred to as "the Conqueror's Insignia" in the ending portion of chapter 2 (and anywhere else the original Japanese term that caused the confusion appears in the script, of course).

Also, how about instead of having Gotoh talk about how the four clerics were "kidnapped by Gharnef's followers, the heretic bishops/sectarian mages" it would be best to reword it into something like "kidnapped by the sectarian mages who follow Gharnef". That makes the term "sectarian mages" sound less like a title (and it isn't supposed to be one) and more like a regular term that Gotoh is using.

Additionally, and as per Heroes, while Cain and Abel's titles are indeed simply "Bull" and "Panther" respectively it is also fine to refer to them as "Cain the Bull" and "Abel the Panther" if need be. So I think that dialogue like this would work best:

Est: What was title of yours again? "Panther"?

Abel: Yes, it was "Abel the Panther".

Note that the above is supposed to be a very, very loose paraphrasing, of course.

On top of everything else, I remember that one point Gotoh realizes that Gharnef plans to resurrect Medeus once more and then, at a later point and in a different chapter, once more says that Gharnef is planning to resurrect "the Shadow Dragon" as if it is some grand reveal at this point. Was he supposed to have realized that Gharnef plans to revive Medeus AS a Shadow Dragon this time around, perhaps? Because if that is what the Japanese script is actually trying to convey then that is not what the current translation is coming across as at all.

Edited by RedEyedDrake

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On 3/7/2017 at 8:11 AM, Lady Sansa said:

There are no official names outside of Japan.

Can you please explain more what you're referring to? I am not entirely sure if you're just referring to the clarifying what localized name of Medeus's class is from Tokyo Mirage Sessions #FE or you're just making random comments?

10 minutes ago, Spectraman said:

Does anyone have a link to the translation patch

Joesteve1914 did said that it will be delayed till May.

On 3/9/2017 at 6:40 PM, joesteve1914 said:

Alright, cool. 

Like I said I might end up delaying the patch until May anyways, so we'll have plenty of time to discuss this :)

 

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21 hours ago, Spectraman said:

Does anyone have a link to the translation patch

 

Yep, as King Marth 64 said it's delayed until May.

 

On 3/13/2017 at 1:45 PM, RedEyedDrake said:

@joe:

I've been thinking about point #18 that I've brought up before and I think I came up with a solution.

"Sign", "symbol", "badge", "mark" and "banner" are all words that technically fit but don't sit well with me just like how the word "proof" didn't. "Emblem" and "seal" are out of the question for obvious reasons. And Awakening already referred to the Fire Emblem as a "crest" by using a different word than the one that I think was translated as "proof" so that doesn't work either. So, having gone over synonyms for some of these words, I believe that the word "insignia" is the best fit, all things considered. Therefore, I think that it would be best to have the Fire Emblem be referred to as "the Conqueror's Insignia" in the ending portion of chapter 2 (and anywhere else the original Japanese term that caused the confusion appears in the script, of course).

Also, how about instead of having Gotoh talk about how the four clerics were "kidnapped by Gharnef's followers, the heretic bishops/sectarian mages" it would be best to reword it into something like "kidnapped by the sectarian mages who follow Gharnef". That makes the term "sectarian mages" sound less like a title (and it isn't supposed to be one) and more like a regular term that Gotoh is using.

Additionally, and as per Heroes, while Cain and Abel's titles are indeed simply "Bull" and "Panther" respectively it is also fine to refer to them as "Cain the Bull" and "Abel the Panther" if need be. So I think that dialogue like this would work best:

Est: What was title of yours again? "Panther"?

Abel: Yes, it was "Abel the Panther".

Note that the above is supposed to be a very, very loose paraphrasing, of course.

On top of everything else, I remember that one point Gotoh realizes that Gharnef plans to resurrect Medeus once more and then, at a later point and in a different chapter, once more says that Gharnef is planning to resurrect "the Shadow Dragon" as if it is some grand reveal at this point. Was he supposed to have realized that Gharnef plans to revive Medeus AS a Shadow Dragon this time around, perhaps? Because if that is what the Japanese script is actually trying to convey then that is not what the current translation is coming across as at all.

On point 18 - I suppose it could be changed to "Conqueror's Insignia", unless anyone has a reason for it not to be. Let me just check Shadow Dragon's script to make sure.

And sure, I'll take the "Bull" and "Panther" into account when I look at those support conversations.

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I don't think that the Fire Emblem ever got referred to by that specific title in FE11. This title only comes up in this game (and only once at that), doesn't it?

Edited by RedEyedDrake

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On 3/15/2017 at 4:26 PM, RedEyedDrake said:

I don't think that the Fire Emblem ever got referred to by that specific title in FE11. This title only comes up in this game (and only once at that), doesn't it?

I actually think it might have been mentioned in FE11 chapter 5 as "The Champion's Proof" unless that's just outright an entirely different title we're talking about. But that's from memory and I'm TL running Zelda so my memory is fuzzy at best for now.

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems

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On 3/2/2017 at 5:22 PM, RedEyedDrake said:

Once again, is the deliberate design of an entire game not enough? The connection isn't superficial in the slightest. And the Binding Blade isn't even a part of this specific Fire Emblem universe. There is nothing to get confused over.

No. As far as I'm concerned, you are only asserting your own personal projections that the connection is beyond superficial. The games do not make any effort to hint that the items share anything in common but an archetype, therefore it is unnecessary to treat them more than that. They are simply divine items used by the heroes to seal away dragons in their respective realms and their similarities end precisely there.

This does not mean that they must be named the same like in the original Japanese, and if anything distinguishing them with different but similar names makes them stand out from each other better than to call both Binding. So why not call one Binding and the other Sealing? Forcing the same naming convention does not provide any benefit but to instill unnecessary ambiguity in understanding what they are, and the concern of worrying that the superficial connection would become muted entirely from naming them differently is insignificant because ultimately Sealing means the same as Binding regardless. It's still being communicated that they're related even with different names.

An informed fan would of course be aware of how they're related without issue, but that does not mean there doesn't exist an implicit and counterproductive message suggested by giving them identical names. You say that there's no confusion from having a Binding Blade and a Binding Shield, but you certainly cannot say that calling it the Sealing Shield wouldn't leave less room for confusion, which makes it the better name.

-

On Champion's Proof: Not only do I disagree with it being renamed the Conqueror's Insignia, but I don't think it should have even been given the original name in the first place.

As mentioned in the previous post above, in Shadow Dragon, when Nyna presents the shield to Marth, she actually calls it the champion's proof in the Japanese version, but in the English localization, her dialogue is changed to have her just refer to it as the Fire Emblem, the crest that is bestowed upon a true champion by House Archanea.

It does not make any sense to treat it as the proper noun of Champion's Proof in New Mystery of the Emblem, because in Shadow Dragon, Marth was not given another name to call it by. Marth has zero reason to ever call it Champion's Proof in English. Marth canonically understands the Fire Emblem to be a champion's crest because that's what Nyna literally told him it was. So if Marth has to refer to it the way Nyna did to him like in New Mystery Chapter 2, it would be most appropriate for him to call it the champion's crest.

In addition, it is unlikely that an official localization of New Mystery of the Emblem would ever retain the word proof for any name, as history has shown us they always drop proof in favor of a different word like seal or crest. Proof has always been avoided wherever possible in Fire Emblem localizations, so a fan translation emulating official naming conventions should be calling it a crest instead, just as Nyna simply called it a crest when she gave it to Marth in Shadow Dragon.

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7 hours ago, Prince of Iris said:

This does not mean that they must be named the same like in the original Japanese,

What kind of logic is that? A lot of the changes proposed here are because things called the same thing in Japanese. The fact that they're called the same thing in Japanese in the absence of official name in a localised Fire Emblem game is the biggest reason for it to be called the Binding Shield.

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@joesteve1914

Here are a few things that I'd like to bring up.

First, I remember Eremiya name dropping Gharnef as early as chapter 13x, thus revealing his involvement in the game's plot to be beyond doubt. However, he then goes by unmentioned for quite a while longer after that. As such, I must ask if he was actually mentioned by name this early in the Japanese text. Just asking to make sure.

Second, in the ending of chapter 20 the dialogue that occurs if you unlocked the paralogue that is chapter 20x mentions that the assassins "were dispatched by Hardin and Gharnef". I don't remember seeing any indication that Hardin is aware of Gharnef's or the assassins' involvement throughout the entire game other than this bit of dialogue and yet the current wording implies that he was at least aware of a group of assassins that seemingly showed up out of nowhere and was willing to work for him. As such I feel that I must ask the following question. Is the Japanese text here actually supposed to imply that he knows about them? If it does then that's that but if it doesn't then I believe a more vague wording (if it works within the confines of the Japanese script, of course) to the effect that the assassins "were working to further Hardin and Gharnef's goals" would be more appropriate.

Third, in the ending of chapter 20x the conversation between Gharnef and Eremiya mentions orphans being killed in "the war". And yet it isn't clear in the slightest as to what war is being discussed here. Is this referring to Dolhr's assault on Archanea during the War of Shadows when the forces that Camus lead conquered the Millennium Court? Or some other war? Or maybe the Japanese text isn't talking about a specific war at all? I think that this needs to be clarified.

Fourth (and I've already brought this point up before but it got skipped over), I remember that one point Gotoh realizes that Gharnef plans to resurrect Medeus once more and then, at a later point and in a different chapter, Gotoh once again says that Gharnef is planning to resurrect "the Shadow Dragon" as if it is some grand reveal at this point and even though he supposedly already figured it out beforehand. Was he actually supposed to have realized that Gharnef plans to revive Medeus AS a Shadow Dragon this time around, perhaps? Because if that is what the Japanese script is actually trying to convey then that is not what the current translation is coming across as at all.

Fifth, looks like waiting until after Shadows of Valentia came out was the right move after all.

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5 hours ago, RedEyedDrake said:

@joesteve1914

Here are a few things that I'd like to bring up.

First, I remember Eremiya name dropping Gharnef as early as chapter 13x, thus revealing his involvement in the game's plot to be beyond doubt. However, he then goes by unmentioned for quite a while longer after that. As such, I must ask if he was actually mentioned by name this early in the Japanese text. Just asking to make sure.

Second, in the ending of chapter 20 the dialogue that occurs if you unlocked the paralogue that is chapter 20x mentions that the assassins "were dispatched by Hardin and Gharnef". I don't remember seeing any indication that Hardin is aware of Gharnef's or the assassins' involvement throughout the entire game other than this bit of dialogue and yet the current wording implies that he was at least aware of a group of assassins that seemingly showed up out of nowhere and was willing to work for him. As such I feel that I must ask the following question. Is the Japanese text here actually supposed to imply that he knows about them? If it does then that's that but if it doesn't then I believe a more vague wording (if it works within the confines of the Japanese script, of course) to the effect that the assassins "were working to further Hardin and Gharnef's goals" would be more appropriate.

Third, in the ending of chapter 20x the conversation between Gharnef and Eremiya mentions orphans being killed in "the war". And yet it isn't clear in the slightest as to what war is being discussed here. Is this referring to Dolhr's assault on Archanea during the War of Shadows when the forces that Camus lead conquered the Millennium Court? Or some other war? Or maybe the Japanese text isn't talking about a specific war at all? I think that this needs to be clarified.

Fourth (and I've already brought this point up before but it got skipped over), I remember that one point Gotoh realizes that Gharnef plans to resurrect Medeus once more and then, at a later point and in a different chapter, Gotoh once again says that Gharnef is planning to resurrect "the Shadow Dragon" as if it is some grand reveal at this point and even though he supposedly already figured it out beforehand. Was he actually supposed to have realized that Gharnef plans to revive Medeus AS a Shadow Dragon this time around, perhaps? Because if that is what the Japanese script is actually trying to convey then that is not what the current translation is coming across as at all.

Fifth, looks like waiting until after Shadows of Valentia came out was the right move after all.

Someone who knows Japanese would have to check this, unfortunately I don't :)

 

(Proceeds to hide in corner and plug ears to avoid sov spoilers)

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OK THIS JUST OCCURED TO ME

The title of the second BSFE map is supposed to be Minerva's epithet! In Heroes, her epithet is translated as Red Dragoon as far as I know, meaning it should be changed from crimson dragoon to red dragoon if we're doing the same for Navarre's title of "Scarlet Sword"; his helptext does say he's "A skilled fighter known as the Scarlet Sword". (Same for all instances of Minerva being called the crimson dragon, being changed to Red Dragoon)

So Navarre's title = Scarlet Sword, Minerva's Title/BSFE Chapter 2 title = Red Dragoon

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems

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On the proof/crest/insignia etc. -

I'm going to replay those chapters in fe11 and then make a decision. If there's still disagreement I suppose I could put a poll up for it.

On the binding/sealing shield thing -

No comment yet, I've never played fe6 to completion so I'm not quite sure about it. For now I'm leaving it as "Binding Shield".

20 hours ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

OK THIS JUST OCCURED TO ME

The title of the second BSFE map is supposed to be Minerva's epithet! In Heroes, her epithet is translated as Red Dragoon as far as I know, meaning it should be changed from crimson dragoon to red dragoon if we're doing the same for Navarre's title of "Scarlet Sword"; his helptext does say he's "A skilled fighter known as the Scarlet Sword". (Same for all instances of Minerva being called the crimson dragon, being changed to Red Dragoon)

So Navarre's title = Scarlet Sword, Minerva's Title/BSFE Chapter 2 title = Red Dragoon

Yep, I got that covered already ;):. Every instance of it is changed in the script, I just need to edit the chapter title graphic.

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You got the explanation for the Binding Shield backwards. The Binding Blade's name is a reference to the Binding Shield's name and not vice versa.

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On 4/8/2017 at 5:54 PM, RedEyedDrake said:

You got the explanation for the Binding Shield backwards. The Binding Blade's name is a reference to the Binding Shield's name and not vice versa.

My bad I'll fix that :)

2 hours ago, High King Xander said:

This will also include the DLC chapters as well won't it?

Yes ;)

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Since the Echoes: Shadows of Valentia is finally got released in Japan, I did looked at the items that were from New Mystery of the Emblem that gotten added in Echoes: Shadows of Valentia. We need to keep an eye out for the localized names and see what Nintendo of America and 8-4 named them in Echoes around at May 20th or they'll might show them in one of the future trailers:

Spoiler

Lady Sword

Again

And there was data-mine for the DLC items that appeared in Echoes:

Spoiler

Star Shards (DLC data-mined)

 

Oh by the way, regarding about the Angel Ring that was mentioned in the Base Conversation:

I did saw the magic spell that was shown in the PAX East Footages that was actually localized as Seraphim and I am not entirely to sure if the ring will might going to be called as Seraphim Ring or not?

Edited by King Marth 64

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On 4/29/2017 at 11:04 AM, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

Is this patch slated for late may after Echoes releases?

Yeah that's the plan. Unless the English version gets leaked ahead of time :D

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You know, now that I think about it , Binding Shield doesn't sound bad at all, so my vote goes to it.

Keep up the good work!

Edited by Metal Mario

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Something very, very, very important just came out about the echoes localization and we need someone with access to a english text dump to confirm

@VincentASM will possibly be very pleased about this assuming Shadow Dragon doesn't throw a wrench in this

 

Naga is referred to as both Female and the Divine Dragon King in Echoes's localization. Specifically, the Dragon Ruler's Fang is localized as the Dragon Kingsfang, and yet naga is referred to as female.

 

This implies SHE is called a KING and English canon is kind of just rolling with it; HOWEVER

 

We need someone to unequivocally confirm Naga is never called "he" in Shadow Dragon. It looks like Echoes made "king" irrelevant; if we can confirm this about Shadow Dragon, Naga definitely should be both female and referred to as King in this patch- so I'm asking anyone with access to the full text of Shadow Dragon, in video (LP) or text form, to confirm Naga is merely called King and not "he" in 11, because if it's just King, Naga is definitely a female King to Archanea. Which will be CRITICAL to this patch's syntax.

 

we also need to watch for if they switch it up and call Naga "he" during chapter 6, but I doubt they will @joesteve1914

 

EDIT: assuming no instance of naga being called "him" can be found in Shadow Dragon, it looks like English canon is invoking the "she is the king" trope, which idk about Vincent but I personally can get behind http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/SheIsTheKing

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems

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Bear in mind that this could just be a case of the English team saying "screw it" and going with the Awakening depiction instead of trying to keep any gender neutral ambiguity.

...Not that I expect the Japanese team to end up doing something different if they ever end up in a situation where they are forced to do deal with the subject of the original Naga from this angle. But still. This could simply be a case of the English team not bothering and the Japanese team not caring to specify.

And besides, Marth's lack of reaction to Naga being called a "she" would make no sense in context.

Edited by RedEyedDrake

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