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Updated FE12 translation patch (Beta 2 released!)


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58 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

Bear in mind that this could just be a case of the English team saying "screw it" and going with the Awakening depiction instead of trying to keep any gender neutral ambiguity.

...Not that I expect the Japanese team to end up doing something different if they ever end up in a situation where they are forced to do deal with the subject of the original Naga from this angle. But still. This could simply be a case of the English team not bothering and the Japanese team not caring to specify.

And besides, Marth's lack of reaction to Naga being called a "she" would make no sense in context.

Well, I do recall that there was a painting that showed Naga as a Male in the original Mystery of the Emblem, but Genealogy of the Holy War was referred to Naga as Female. I totally think the developers than just localized team didn't exactly know what exact gender Naga is really is before Awakening revealed it.

By the way, does Naga ever refereed to as male or female in Shadow Dragon, I don't exactly recall seeing that in any of the main story plot that I looked at after beating Shadow Dragon in a couple of years ago if they do appeared in one of the Gaiden chapters?

Edited by King Marth 64
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1 hour ago, King Marth 64 said:

By the way, does Naga ever refereed to as male or female in Shadow Dragon, I don't exactly recall seeing that in any of the main story plot if they do appeared the Gaiden chapters?

I don't recall any specific mention either.

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The only specific mention is that Naga is a King, which Echoes basically says "Yes, SHE is a KING. Did you just assume her gender?"

So we're looking for a specific "he" or "him" for naga in Shadow Dragon, otherwise we have a rare, but not unheard of, example of a female King (see the TVtrope I linked for examples) as Echoes translates her as- being both Divine Dragon King and Female in Echoes's localization

 

@joesteve1914 take note, very important detail for the translation if we can research Shadow Dragon

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems
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Indeed, that settles that issue then! (hopefully :D)

The only instance of Naga being referred to be name appears to be in Chapter 7 in the village where you recruit Bantu-

Bantu:
“You there. Have you come across a young girl, one by the name of Tiki? She must be found, boy! Tiki is the last of the Naga, the divine-dragon clan. Without her powers, we cannot challenge the Manaketes who serve Medeus… Me? I haven’t the power. I am a fire dragon, yes… But in the name alone, in name alone. I lost my firestone in Pyrathi. Without it, I cannot do battle. …You will be traveling much, yes? I wish to go with you. Perhaps together we can find Tiki.”

(although it's the european script. Does anyone know if it's any different from the NA version besides name changes?)

I'll dump my copy of fe11 and check the script just in case.

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You know, I don't think Naga is mentioned in the text at all. It's Mystery where the mystery is revealed. Ba-dum.

The only other place--and where the confusion first came from--is the description of the Falchion IIRC. It says a gift from the Divine Dragon King or along those lines.

Anyway, yes, I am super happy that NOA decided to make Archanea's Naga canonically female. To think it would be in Echoes of all places XD

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2 hours ago, VincentASM said:

I am super happy that NOA decided to make Archanea's Naga canonically female.

 

2 hours ago, VincentASM said:

NOA

Surely I don't need to explain the problem here.

And once again, Marth's lack of reaction would be completely nonsensical. If anything, it would still make more sense for Xane's wording to remain ambiguous.

Edited by RedEyedDrake
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11 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

Surely I don't need to explain the problem here.

And once again, Marth's lack of reaction would be completely nonsensical. If anything, it would still make more sense for Xane's wording to remain ambiguous.

The developers already decided Naga was female from the start. It was NOA who wasn't sure which side to pick.

Why would Marth need to react or be confused? It is exactly the same as hearing stories of Artemis, Cartas and Anri.

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4 hours ago, VincentASM said:

The developers already decided Naga was female from the start. It was NOA who wasn't sure which side to pick.

That's... debatable, but it's thankfully irrelevant now.

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She is the Divine Dragon King.

 

The term used for Naga in the Japanese version was gender neutral, 8-4 screwed up by using "King". Instead of doing a riggamaroll to fix it, they're like "fuck it, she's a King". Hence, echoes calls Falchion from valentia The Divine Dragon King's Fang, or Kingsfang, despite Naga being a female. They just decided instead of trying to do mental gymnastics they'd eat it and try and make it along the lines of the Japanese version, specifically with Kingsfang; a female King in this instance.

I linked a troupe to this; "She is the king". And this is (in universe) a type 2-3; "the title is gender neutral regardless of who uses it", at least for the Divine Dragon tribe.

 

Let's double check and make sure they don't say the Divine Dragon King is male in FE11, as that's still specifically Naga despite not being her name specifically. If they never say "him/he, the Divine Dragon King" or the reverse, I definitely say Echoes making Naga a female king is the go ahead to have 12 call Naga "her majesty, the King". The reason I say to check this is because if Shadow Dragon so much as mumbles "him" in regards to Naga this is probably just how Valentia views Naga in the English canon, but I'm hoping that Shadow Dragon uses it in no instance. It still wouldn't be honest if we brushed an instance aside though, since consistency with FE11 trumps everything else with this patch, but so far it looks clear, yes?

 

i think he's saying it doesn't make sense for Marth to just take a female king with no confusion, but assuming Marth knows enough about Naga already it's entirely possible he already knows full well from the tales that the Divine Dragon King is a woman despite the masculine title and such questions would have been asked when he was a student learning the history

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems
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9 hours ago, VincentASM said:

Why would Marth need to react or be confused? It is exactly the same as hearing stories of Artemis, Cartas and Anri.

Except that hearing about Artemis, Cartas and Anri would be a case of acquiring knowledge on a subject that he personally previously didn't know anything about but that anyone who is actually versed in the subject is aware of. Meanwhile, you're comparing this to a bit of knowledge that not a single human had access to until, according to you, Xane told him.

This would be similar to someone who's claims on such a matter can actually hold weight telling you that Julius Caesar was, say, a native American or something. Surely you wouldn't just accept that with a straight face.

Also, you don't really know what goes on through the developers' heads. Even when it comes to projects that they actually bother with, if they didn't come out and unambiguously state something beforehand then they can easily just go back on any previous implications if they feel like it.

Edited by RedEyedDrake
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11 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

Except that hearing about Artemis, Cartas and Anri would be a case of acquiring knowledge on a subject that he personally previously didn't know anything about but that anyone who is actually versed in the subject is aware of. Meanwhile, you're comparing this to a bit of knowledge that not a single human had access to until, according to you, Xane told him.

This would be similar to someone who's claims on such a matter can actually hold weight telling you that Julius Caesar was, say, a native American or something. Surely you wouldn't just accept that with a straight face.

I'm pretty sure the Archaneans already revered the Divine Dragon King, like Jugdral revered Naga and crusader Heim.

They don't utter Naga, but I'm pretty sure regardless that they are familiar with the name, it just isn't relevant to them at the time. They even seem to be aware that Anri was given the Blade of Light by said Divine Dragon King. It isn't too much of a stretch that if Valentia knew she was female, a country with damn near nothing to do with her outside of one Falchion, Archanea would definitely know this even with distorted history on the very least the account of its own Falchion.

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems
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1 hour ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

It isn't too much of a stretch that if Valentia knew she was female

Did it, though? The way the Valentian Revelations quotes are worded makes me question whether anyone, even Alm and Celica, canonically see them. Is there any evidence in the main game to imply that the Valentians actually know anything about their deities' personal histories?

And even if they do know said histories...once again, Japanese. Is it ever unambiguous there? And if it isn't ever unambiguous then is there any reason to believe that Duma and/or Mila ever bothered to tell anyone?

Edited by RedEyedDrake
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More localized names from Echoes incoming

 

Lady Sword is now Ladyblade (one word, that exact spelling from what I've been told) and the Again staff/white magic is now Anew

Lady Sword -> Ladyblade

Again Staff -> Anew Staff (though the staff should NOT have "staff" in its name, like the other staffs in FE12)

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On 5/13/2017 at 5:06 AM, RedEyedDrake said:

Did it, though? The way the Valentian Revelations quotes are worded makes me question whether anyone, even Alm and Celica, canonically see them. Is there any evidence in the main game to imply that the Valentians actually know anything about their deities' personal histories?

And even if they do know said histories...once again, Japanese. Is it ever unambiguous there? And if it isn't ever unambiguous then is there any reason to believe that Duma and/or Mila ever bothered to tell anyone?

Okay, I'm starting to feel like something is getting lost in translation.

Yes, this is a "translation" patch, but it's essentially an unofficial localisation.

When we translate things from Japanese, we need to adapt them for an English audience.

There is absolutely zero sense in keeping gender neutral pronouns for the sake of it. It is not just Naga, everybody in the game is referred to with neutral pronouns 90% of the time. But we are fine with using "he" and "she", etc.

I understand Naga is a bit trickier since there's less context to work with. Usually, you select a gender based on context. Except, we actually have loads of context thanks to Genealogy and Awakening and the remakes showing us Naga is female.

Even NOA, who we should be mimicking as much as possible unless they made a clear error, has opted to clearly define Naga as female.

The other thing to understand is that Naga's gender is not a closely guarded secret as you might believe. It's merely due to the nuances of language.

Therefore, if nobody is surprised by Naga in the Japanese version but you can't convey gender in Japanese, it is 100% fine for nobody to be surprised by Naga in the English version with gender conveyed.

I apologise if I am sounding preachy or overbearing etc. but I just wanted this to be clear.

Anyway, er, I quite like the sound of Ladyblade : P

Edited by VincentASM
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2 hours ago, VincentASM said:

Even NOA, who we should be mimicking as much as possible unless they made a clear error

That's just it. Whether it is an error or not is to be decided by whether NoJ actually bother to specify this when it comes to Naga (the one that used to rule the Divine Dragons) at some point in the future or not. And from what I can tell they did NOT specify anything in the Japanese version of SoV. Therefore, NoA using "she" is simply them saying "screw it" and going the path of least resistance. And it's not like NoJ will ever actually bother to correct them directly, meaning that we are stuck with NoA continuing to make assumptions until NoJ actually bother to be specific, as I said before. If they ever bother to be specific at all.

I'm fine with us copying names and terminology and what not but I'm going to stand by my claim that we shouldn't blindly copy what is obviously them just being lazy. Now, if you have some sort of evidence that actually disproves this being laziness and/or evidence that shows that NoJ either did specify Naga's original gender in the Japanese version of SoV or actually did bother to communicate with NoA on this point (whether to give their approval or to correct NoA, either one works) then please do correct me. But if no such evidence exists then all signs do indeed point to this simply being a case of NoA taking the easy way out.

Edited by RedEyedDrake
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1 hour ago, RedEyedDrake said:

That's just it. Whether it is an error or not is to be decided by whether NoJ actually bother to specify this when it comes to Naga (the one that used to rule the Divine Dragons) at some point in the future or not. And from what I can tell they did NOT specify anything in the Japanese version of SoV. Therefore, NoA using "she" is simply them saying "screw it" and going the path of least resistance. And it's not like NoJ will ever actually bother to correct them directly, meaning that we are stuck with NoA continuing to make assumptions until NoJ actually bother to be specific, as I said before. If they ever bother to be specific at all.

I'm fine with us copying names and terminology and what not but I'm going to stand by my claim that we shouldn't blindly copy what is obviously them just being lazy. Now, if you have some sort of evidence that actually disproves this being laziness and/or evidence that shows that NoJ either did specify Naga's original gender in the Japanese version of SoV or actually did bother to communicate with NoA on this point (whether to give their approval or to correct NoA, either one works) then please do correct me. But if no such evidence exists then all signs do indeed point to this simply being a case of NoA taking the easy way out.

We've known since Genealogy that Naga is female. The Naga who appeared during the Miracle of Darna was a woman and Kaga explicitly stated this Naga is the same Naga who ruled over the Divine Dragons of Archanea.

Shadow Dragon and New Mystery featured Nagi who was basically Naga with memory loss or trying to hide her identity. Her internal name is Naga and everything in the story points to her being Naga. Awakening's Naga looking 90% identical to Nagi is the icing on the cake.

That is why the initial release of the New Mystery translation patch had female pronouns for Naga.

This is also probably the exact reason Echoes has female pronouns for Naga.

Finally, while it's entirely possible that NOA didn't consult IS, I find it extremely hard to believe. We aren't talking about fans like us, but actual people from Nintendo with access to the source code and supplementary materials who are working on an official translation that is being shipped across the globe. Surely they must have asked IS a few questions here and there when they weren't sure.

That said, they have been known to make mistakes in the past. I will give you that. But none of this matters when it has already been established that Naga is female...

Edited by VincentASM
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I'm sorry, but this is starting to sound like the Vergil incident all over again.

Or people arguing about FE6 name updates.

Or FE4 woth BookofHolsety for Project Naga.

From my own experience with Naga and Japanese scripts... RedEyedDrake... you're really looking for something to nitpick when there isn't any necessity to fuss over an unofficial translation patch.

By arguing semantics and linguistics for pronoun usage for a patch that has no need of updating for the sake of quality... you are losing the spirit of the project.

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Naga is referred to as female in Echoes.

 

she is also referred to as the Divine Dragon King- more specifically her tooth is called the (Divine Dragon) Kingsfang- a localization of what is literally called the Divine Dragon King's Fang in Japanese Echoes- so the case is open and shut. Naga is a Female king- both female and king- and end of story. No qualms about it now from Echoes.

the term used in the Japanese version is gender neutral so honestly making the title of Dragon King "king" even if a female holds it is probably the best approximation considering they made Divine Dragon King a hard and fast moniker in FE11, its better than any sort of mental gymnastics to try and explain she may have been seen by Archanea as male when Xane and gotoh would know better

They do localize Divine Blade Falchion (Marth's Falchion from the amiibo) as Exalted Falchion, even though FE11 localized it as divine blade Falchion; which should we use, or should we use both interchangeably? I feel like FE11's version might take presidence here, but at the same time maybe one or two instances of a Exalted Falchion wouldn't hurt since now the Falchion of Marth's era is definitely localized as that; of course FE11 using Divine Blade Falchion could override that entirely, but using both coooould be nice to help make the connection more apparent to new players not familiar with the fact Exalted and Divine Blade Falchion have the same Japanese name

 

also, Mormotard desert is now Marmorthod desert in Echoes. I'm like 90% sure that desert wasn't mentioned in Shadow Dragon, right?

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems
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27 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

also, Mormotard desert is now Marmorthod desert in Echoes. I'm like 90% sure that desert wasn't mentioned in Shadow Dragon, right?

Oh man, I am so happy we have an English name to use. I could not think of anything that sounded half-decent for it.

Yeah, it's new to Mystery of the Emblem.

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33 minutes ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

so, Mormotard desert is now Marmorthod desert in Echoes. I'm like 90% sure that desert wasn't mentioned in Shadow Dragon, right?

Wait, where did you find that at? I don't recall seeing that name appeared in Echoes: Shadows of Valentia?

Edited by King Marth 64
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14 minutes ago, King Marth 64 said:

Wait, where did you find that at? I don't recall seeing that name appeared in Echoes: Shadows of Valentia?

Map screen description for the Thabes Labyrinth in the English version that leaked

Edited by Hero of the Fire Emblems
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...You know, I just realized something. And yes, this isn't completely on topic but it isn't completely off topic either.

Anyway, the Whitewings were there to help Alm and Celica battle Grima. And it would only make sense that they would tell Minerva everything that happened to them over the course of their absence. And Minerva would have then at least notified Marth & co. about the situation as they were nearing Marmorthod. In other words, it is quite likely that Marth actually knew about Grima's corpse being underneath Thabes. Really puts a new perspective on chapter 11 of FE12, doesn't it?

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6 minutes ago, RedEyedDrake said:

...You know, I just realized something. And yes, this isn't completely on topic but it isn't completely off topic either.

Anyway, the Whitewings were there to help Alm and Celica battle Grima. And it would only make sense that they would tell Minerva everything that happened to them over the course of their absence. And Minerva would have then at least notified Marth & co. about the situation as they were nearing Marmorthod. In other words, it is quite likely that Marth actually knew about Grima's corpse being underneath Thabes. Really puts a new perspective on chapter 11 of FE12, doesn't it?

Might lend credibility to the First Exalt being Marth, but Awakening is so vague about it that it's hard to say either way

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5 hours ago, Hero of the Fire Emblems said:

in the English version that leaked

Wait what?! 

I need to go downloa... I mean wait for my preordered copy to arrive on Friday. Yeah that's what I'm going to do :D:

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29 minutes ago, joesteve1914 said:

Wait what?! 

I need to go downloa... I mean wait for my preordered copy to arrive on Friday. Yeah that's what I'm going to do :D:

European English which may or may not have changes

 

so far tho it looks like it does not have any

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