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Why the Nerfing?


SavageVolug
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Have you noticed how various aspects of the most recent Fire Emblem games have been nerfed when compared to they're predecessors? So have I, and it is really grating on my nerves. Ok, to start let's look at healing items like vulnaries and concoctions. In Fates these heal 10 and 20 points of HP, that's fine when it's early game but what about late game when you have 40, 60 or 80 points of HP and you just got 75% of your health reduced. In Radiant Dawn these could restore 20 and 40 points, much better wouldn't you say. Sadly this is not the only thing, all mounted units had a skill called Canto. This allowed you to move any spaces left over after attacking or rescuing or something, so if you can move 9 spaces and you move 5 and attack you can still move four spaces after attacking. I would understand if this was absent in a game predating RD or in a remake of a much older game. But this is not the case and so it is inexcusable and unacceptable that this skill is absent, there is no reason for it to not be there. I would gladly trade all of the rallies plus galeforce in exchange for canto, this skill is awesome.

Moving on to swordmasters in RD they had a crit 25+ skill that was automatically given and locked but did not take up skill space. Why do swordmasters not have a critt buff in addition to they're high speed, skill and luck? Also why has the Shove command been removed? While this skill was not always useful it was at very least fun to do, the only way that it has been implemented is by a skill called shove. What? So the other units don't know how to shove? We don't need a skill for every affect, like rescue that does not need to be a skill. Saviour would be a much better alternative. 

Marksmen could shoot from three, THREE spaces away regardless of the bow they were using, and had a skill called Deadeye. Which had the added effect of stunning the enemy unit,....if he was lucky. The lucky ones got stunned the unlucky got killed. Why Fire Emblem? Why? Why are all the awesome features being dumbed down, nerfed or removed? There are some cool new aspects but so many features have been removed and it makes no sense. Give us Canto again, give us ledges, give our pegasai, and Draco units Stun. Give Generals Luna (not the Awakening and Fates version, those are lame and lack any oomph). Astra and Lethality were not nerfed, so why have Sol and Luna been nerfed? These skills used to be awesome, and Berserkers should have the skill Corrosion why has that been removed?

If any of you have some feedback or insight I would be interested in your thoughts. I think Fire Emblem is on the rise but I believe that we need to take all of the best features from various games and merge them.

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10 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

One word: Balance. Also, for your information, Shove is in Fates.

He already mentioned that.

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I haven't played Radiant Dawn, but just looking at the average stats your units have much higher HP on Average compared to Fates characters, very few of your characters push past 40/45 HP in fates at max level, while Radiant dawn's healing items are more needed with higher HP bases/averages.  Vulneraries also heal 10HP in every game they're in except Thracia and Radiant Dawn, so they're actually outliers there, not the norm.  

Radiant Dawn procs look extremely overkill and have very little to differentiate from one another.  They get stale when everything just gives you an obscene power boost.  Fates proc skills aren't as strong, but at least they have different effects.  Can you imagine Fates with FE4 skills and weapons?  It just wouldn't work.  Skills (and other stuff like healing items) have to make sense for the game.

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Elixirs exist. Only a grand total of TWO FE games have Vulneraries that heal more than 10 HP, so...

There's a reason why the GBA games were basically Mounted Emblem. Canto, incredible Move, great triangle coverage etc. etc. Anything that didn't walk on its feet was basically automatically good or top tier (and honestly still is, but not to nearly the same degree).

I don't have much to say about Shove and Rescue. I wouldn't mind them being either built-in or as skills, as long as they're in the game in some form. Having repositioning moves be skills means you need to a bit more aware of who you're using and where you're positioning them, so you don't screw yourself out of a Shove or Rescue you needed, instead of having everyone being able to do it.

Third tier classes were designed to be OP, but the focus has sort of shifted to Pair Up and Stances instead. Would not mind them adding third tiers back, but I don't think they'll be balanced at all with Pair Up also in the game.

With how accessible Sol and Luna have become in the new games, keeping their PoR/RD versions would just break any semblance of balance in half. How is it fair for an offensive skill to have Skill% activation rate, yet act as both a crit AND a 100% life steal? You can't convince me that isn't broken as fuck. It needed the nerf to begin with.

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I mean, several of these are RD-specific buffs that were redacted, not nerfed. And it's the trueblade class that has crit +20, not swordmasters. Fates Swordmasters got buffed to have their +10 crit just like in FE7-13, as well as avoid +10. As for removing features, Fire Emblem has always removed tested features and mechanics like they were a bad habit since 6. Awakening and Fates have been adapting so much old stuff that it's almost nonsensical "hey guys, remember dread fighters and warping witches?". Also, Luna and Sol were nerfed to what they are in PoR, not the 3DS games. I never played FE4, but the majority of skills seem oppressively overpowered, Luna being a good example. In the GBA games, there was a dark magic tome called Luna that also negated 100% of RES and it was one of the most powerful weapons in the game, held back only by there being few bosses with RES that needed to be negated.

Awakening had the most powerful units of any game to date, and I appreciate Fates toning down everything from skills to weapons to grinding. I like the low health growths a lot, but part of me hopes they go back to the average of ~75. Because less stats on level up take away from your enjoyment of raising units, never adding to it. It would have been fine if enemies had similarly low health growths but they don't. You never feel powerful in Fates until you get a good skill loadout. 

If they brought back canto, it needs to be nerfed considerably. In the tellius games, being a mounted unit instantly made you high tier. Based on how Fates approached weapon nerfs, I can see its solution to canto being that when you move a mounted unit to attack, you get the options of Attack and Canto. By choosing Canto, you get to strike and then spend the rest of your movement, but your strike cannot crit or followup. But even with such nerfs, having the option to Canto is a million times better than not having that option, and mounted units would rise once again to the top tier.

 

Edit: On second thought, Fates would have made Canto a skill, rather than giving you the option to attack normally. Like Wary Fighter, it's a great benefit, as well as a great drawback for that unit's effectiveness.

Edited by Gustavos
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Very interesting points everyone. Thank you, in regards to sol or luna being broken well the same is true of both astra and lethality. These skill are very much broken so my point is that if these two remain unchanged then why have sol and luna been changed? And it's not just the skills  there are so many creative concepts and game mechanics that are just being ignored like the afore mentioned canto. There's also Saviour and nullify both pretty awesome, but this is just scratching the surface here. And my complaint regarding shove is that it is restricted to being a skill, the problem is that there's only one class thus only a few people who can learn it. And it was soooo fun to shove people for the heck of it. I really don't know though if canto would need to be nerfed, at least not anymore so than galeforce which is very close to being overpowered in my opinion. Thank you everyone for you thoughts on the topic.

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32 minutes ago, SavageVolug said:

Very interesting points everyone. Thank you, in regards to sol or luna being broken well the same is true of both astra and lethality. These skill are very much broken so my point is that if these two remain unchanged then why have sol and luna been changed? And it's not just the skills  there are so many creative concepts and game mechanics that are just being ignored like the afore mentioned canto. There's also Saviour and nullify both pretty awesome, but this is just scratching the surface here. And my complaint regarding shove is that it is restricted to being a skill, the problem is that there's only one class thus only a few people who can learn it. And it was soooo fun to shove people for the heck of it. I really don't know though if canto would need to be nerfed, at least not anymore so than galeforce which is very close to being overpowered in my opinion. Thank you everyone for you thoughts on the topic.

Galeforce got nerfed in Fates, FYI (won't work if the unit with it is in either attack or guard stance, is a level 15 (35) skill in a game where you can't expect to get such skills until near the very end, and is locked behind a paywall on top of that). Astra did get nerfed, too, as did Lethality (the former went back to half damage hits, and the latter has an extremely low proc rate of Skill/4; that's low to the point where I'd practically dismiss it as a wasted skill slot).

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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45 minutes ago, SatsumaFSoysoy said:

There's a reason why the GBA games were basically Mounted Emblem. Canto, incredible Move, great triangle coverage etc. etc.

GBA Canto actually was nerfed from SNES Canto (although I'm talking Genealogy because I haven't played Mystery or Thracia).
You don't get to move after attacking or using a staff in the GBA games, you only do in Genealogy, PoR or RD.

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19 minutes ago, SavageVolug said:

Very interesting points everyone. Thank you, in regards to sol or luna being broken well the same is true of both astra and lethality. These skill are very much broken so my point is that if these two remain unchanged then why have sol and luna been changed? And it's not just the skills  there are so many creative concepts and game mechanics that are just being ignored like the afore mentioned canto. There's also Saviour and nullify both pretty awesome, but this is just scratching the surface here. And my complaint regarding shove is that it is restricted to being a skill, the problem is that there's only one class thus only a few people who can learn it. And it was soooo fun to shove people for the heck of it. I really don't know though if canto would need to be nerfed, at least not anymore so than galeforce which is very close to being overpowered in my opinion. Thank you everyone for you thoughts on the topic.

Astra has attack / 2 and skill / 2 for proc rates. It's fine where it is now. It still has usage over luna for its defensive merit at any rate. Lethality actually requires you to be able to damage the person in regards, and many proc skills in Fire Emblem were glorified OHKOs. So I don't see how Lethality is broken. It's good that these things are being changed up like that. 

Canto being gone is because there's no good way to balance canto without seriously considering the balance of units. Canto is something that makes units that have good movement even better. Nullify is still in the game, it's just called a different skill, and to be honest, I'm not a fan of nullify. Savior isn't here because it has no use with the lack of rescue. Why would you want it? How would you use it in Pair Up? Galeforce isn't nearly as overpowered as people make it sound. For starters, it requires a successful kill. Canto is even more powerful. You see how annoying those gangs of social knights are in FE4? That's because of canto, not galeforce. Because if all of those units were galeforcing off of you, you've got bigger problems than the fact that they even have the skill if it's seriously threatening you. 

Galeforce was a problem in Awakening because of Pair Up + super death proc activations along with activation rates + Dual Strikes from possibly brave weapons resulting in a method where you could eventually hit a point where you could obliterate any unit reliably resulting in a person getting full movement twice. However, in a normal game? Galeforce is kind of a joke on characters outside of Robin. 

The changes in the game are for the good of the gameplay, and I'm glad that they are toning down on that nonsense. It's not fun to have an offensive fest like Awakening or RD part 4. 

Edited by Augestein
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Tbh I've always thought that Canto was a bad idea to begin with, considering the sheer advantage that mounted units have over foot units even without it. I think Awakening's Galeforce was an attempt to tone it down a bit, but ended up being even more abusable due to the game's pair up system.

About the healing items, I'm actually more annoyed at their fewer use in Fates than the healing properties (which actually isn't much of a problem imo since I used Vulneraries and Concoctions for the majority of the game). Why do Elixirs only have ONE use in Fates? This makes restocking them a pain. If they wanted to limit us (which is just another kind of annoyance), couldn't they just make its price more expensive? 

And what's with the obscenely low use of healing staves in Fates, especially higher-ranking ones like Physics and Recover? Not to mention that their healing efficiency has already been nerfed considerably compared to most games. And some of them even have limited stockings which is just great. 

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Ryo I never thought of the perspectives you mentioned although that annoys me greatly that healing items have been reduced to half their amount more or less. I always thought either canto or a feature that mimics canto made perfect sense since we are talking about a mounted units. And historically speaking cavalry units were the superpower of an army, and I always enjoyed that concept. That said it also makes sense to make mounted units almost useless when battling in the mountains. Yeah what Fates has done with staffs and healing items is really anoying. 

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Vaxamillian, Yes I am aware that Canto was only done that way in RD and POR. I was referring to RD because it is the game that I have played the most and am just recently playing Blazing Sword. That game is absolute gold by the way, anyway yes. You cannot do Canto after an attack, but at least you could move after either trading, rescuing, or visiting a home, store ect.

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4 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

Ryo I never thought of the perspectives you mentioned although that annoys me greatly that healing items have been reduced to half their amount more or less. I always thought either canto or a feature that mimics canto made perfect sense since we are talking about a mounted units. And historically speaking cavalry units were the superpower of an army, and I always enjoyed that concept. That said it also makes sense to make mounted units almost useless when battling in the mountains. Yeah what Fates has done with staffs and healing items is really anoying. 

Once again, Radiant Dawn is an outlier in that aspect. Also, Concoctions restoring 40 HP is overkill when most units won't even have that much until near the end of the game, and some units have HP caps as low as 45 or 50.

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Levant Mir Celestia I was thinking more of the stats that Awakening had and assuming they more or less are the same in Fates. Meaning that all units will have a HP cap of 80, not sure what the actual HP cap is but it's probably between 60 to 80. So yes, they won't need an item that heals 20 or 40 points early game. I was talking about potentially late game where a unit is going to need substantially more points restored than 10 or 20. In that regard specifically I still think it's silly to only have items that heal 10 or  20 points of health and only come in quantities of about 3.

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Pretty much everything has been addressed by others already, but I would like to make a note on Canto. What I would like to see is the GBA version of Canto given to everyone. I don't think it would be unreasonable to allow anyone to use their remaining move after trading or visiting a village, but I do think moving after attacking is a bit too much.

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3 hours ago, SavageVolug said:

Levant Mir Celestia I was thinking more of the stats that Awakening had and assuming they more or less are the same in Fates. Meaning that all units will have a HP cap of 80, not sure what the actual HP cap is but it's probably between 60 to 80. So yes, they won't need an item that heals 20 or 40 points early game. I was talking about potentially late game where a unit is going to need substantially more points restored than 10 or 20. In that regard specifically I still think it's silly to only have items that heal 10 or  20 points of health and only come in quantities of about 3.

Fates brought back varied HP caps depending on class. And with most Fates characters tending to have relatively low HP relative to prior games...

Edited by Levant Mir Celestia
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  • 2 months later...

I actually like the idea of a semi-Canto, FE6-8 style for mounted units. Could they have kept that and instead have more instances of having to negotiate enemies and occasionally even groups that are armed with horse-killers, hunter bows, pole-axes, and the like to force you to use other units?

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Vulneraries healing 20 HP with a ludicrous 8 uses was done partly with the Part system in mind. For several chapters, the player doesn't get a playable healer at all. 20 HP vulneraries makes keeping everyone alive during those chapter easier.

Don't know if bring back GBA Canto would be too good or not. But why not make Jugdrali-Tellian Canto a command skill you select before moving your unit, with a ~4 turn cooldown after a use of it?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Also, another thing, does anyone know whether the 1.5RN-system in Fates is here to stay? While I haven't played Birthright, I suspect this was put in to not make said game be too easy with all of the samurais (and any other Speed/Luck-happy Hoshidans) avoid-tanking the Nohrians like Binding Blade.

Unless if there are specific reasons like the above, then I don't really see why they should "fix the 2-RN system when it's not really broken". Just have better WTA, maybe better lance-wielding units, and more kinds of, and opportunities in getting, accuracy-raising swordslayers for low-accuracy units to land their attacks on the myrms, and you're golden.

Edited by henrymidfields
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