Arena Discussion Thread (inc. Assault)

[Raven]

The amazing thing is that there will be only like 6,000-7,000 players in Tier 17 next season, and from there it'd be even harder to be the top percentage of that small group to rise to Tier 18 and beyond. I think T18+ is dolphin (~$300 or more) territory.

The tier system is a double sided blade, more noticeable the higher up you are. For example, in T20 you can't go up, you can get a better score than everyone in T19, but you can still get knocked down to T19 if you're in the bottom percentile of the T20 players. It's a harsh environment that only the biggest of Wailords will get to experience (I assume).

Edit: Just realised there's about 2,000 players who will also join T17 from T14, so there will be about 10,000 players in T17 in total. My point still stands, though.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Raven

[Clogon]

I really like the bridge map with the defence tiles in the middle. I just faced a full Armour team with distant counter there (sheena, hector, zephiel and effie). I just put my Fury ike in the defense tile and he tanked. :)

 

Edit:

Score 4802 rank 2820 tier 17 1 death

6 defence wins.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Clogon

[Raven]

You got over 4800 with a death? What even is your team.

[Silith13]

I just got destroeyed. Olivia with Wings of Death and Cordelia basically just wiped my team. I was not prepared.

[Clogon]

37 minutes ago, Raven said:

You got over 4800 with a death? What even is your team.

+1 Reinhardt, +3 Erika, Hector and Bonus unit (Ike). Luckily this week Ike has access to Aether so it boosts my points by quite a bit. They all have full SI and seals equipped. My single death was because S!Lucina on a defence tile survived an attack from my half HP -Res Hector.

[mcsilas]

Scored a deathless run of 4712 on my main account using 5* Sharena, 4* Olivia with Wings of Mercy/New Moon, 4* Zephiel with Swap and 5* Merric. The last battle was close, Henry would have KOed my Merric if it wasn't for the defense tile (2 HP yeah!)

This makes me Rank 9503 and so far I;m moving up one rank to Tier 16.

No defense wins though. Been having bad luck since I changed my team to incorporate a bonus unit. If no luck still I'll go back to my old cav team (Abel, Ursula, Frederick, Gunter) who at least gave me 1 Defense win a week.

 

My other account's run was shattered in the last battle by Olivia + Bunny Lucina in the bridge map with square tiles....

Edited May 11, 2017 by mcsilas

[Skala_Bundet]

I'm interested in more Arena score min-maxing and want to see how far we can deduce the arena offense point score calculations.

To work towards this it would be useful to have deathless run scores and the characters that participated with their skills. Since surrendering for different reasons skews scores, it would be nice if you could mention how often and why you surrendered (for example to avoid low point opponents). Let's see how long it takes to get some results...

 

Anyway this format should be sufficient for my needs:

 

4 hours ago, Dual Dragons said:

5/11/2017 - offense 4,734; rank in tier 7,515 (1:12AM PST)

Team:
(all Level 40)
5* +Res/-HP Ryoma (173; +Vantage 3)
5* +Atk/-Spd Ninian (164; +Wings of Mercy 2, Speed+1 Seal)
5* +Atk/-Spd Reinhardt (149; +Moonbow, Wings of Mercy 3)
4* +Atk/-Spd Barst (146)
Total BST: 632

It's been a while since I've posted.

So bumping my 4* Reinhardt who happened to get that sweet nature of +Atk/-Spd to 5* and giving him Moonbow and Wings of Mercy 3 has proven to be very disgusting. He blips swords and Takumi's out of existence before they can retaliate. With Moonbow, sometimes he can take down even units with higher Resistance. I'm seeing more mages with the lower BST. I hope to get Ninian Hone Attack 3 at some point.

No defense wins yet. I'll wait a few days before I switch Barst for someone else. I'd at least try to get a defense win even if it's not max points.

I'm assuming you only have vanilla skills otherwise? What are the C skills your Reinhardt and Ninian are using? Spur Atk 2 and Fortify Def 2 or Goad Cavalry and Fortify Dragons? Did you keep Knockback on Barst? Did you ever surrender during your run?

First results on my side:

5/11 - offense 4780 rank in tier 15 4456 (no surrenders)

Team: (lvl 40)

5* Anna (187,Fury 3,Reposition,Iceberg,Speed+1 Seal)

5* Reinhardt (157,Fury 2, Smite, Spur Atk 2, Attack+1 Seal)

5* Sanaki (164,Rally Speed,Draconic Aura,Swordbreaker 3, HP+3 Seal)

5* Julia+1 (167,Rally Defense,Lancebreaker 3, Hone Spd 3)

 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Skala_Bundet

[Ledrert]

Really hate Reinhardt. He's so a easy unit. Her sister is the same. So lame...

Well, After two match opposing them, where I lost to Olwen finally, I've done a 5-row winning streak... before loosing to a ***** Hector Wing of Mercy.

So, new try. 7-row win, one death, 4721 scored, 9109th actually.

Team : M!Robin (TA3, QR2); Alm+1(Darting Blow 3, Renewal 2, Spd+1); Hana (Brave Sword+, Escutcheon, Vantage 2, Atk+1); Michalis (Bonfire, Fury 3, QR2, HP+3)

And what the hell with these Ryoma Fury-Vantage ? Seriously XD  There all the same x)

[chirp]

18 minutes ago, Ledrert said:

Really hate Reinhardt. He's so a easy unit. Her sister is the same. So lame...

(...)

And what the hell with these Ryoma Fury-Vantage ? Seriously XD  There all the same x)

xxx-Counter + Vantage foo is probably one of the reasons you see so many blue literate horsepersons. They solve the problem when foo != Hector.

Now I wonder: is there a universal solution for all values of foo ? 

[Ledrert]

32 minutes ago, chirp said:

xxx-Counter + Vantage foo is probably one of the reasons you see so many blue literate horsepersons. They solve the problem when foo != Hector.

Now I wonder: is there a universal solution for all values of foo ? 

Yeah, well, I understand the Vantage thing... But they are all Fury. There is not even an ounce of originality. It's too bad.

And why always Reinhardt ? I mean, there is Linde, M!Robin, Nowi, Effie... There's so much possibility. That's why I said it was a easy pick thanks to Dire Thunder... Well, it's my point of view, anyway...

[Clogon]

33 minutes ago, chirp said:

Now I wonder: is there a universal solution for all values of foo ? 

Yes, it is called Firesweep Bow+.

2 minutes ago, Ledrert said:

There is not even an ounce of originality. 

Why would there be any "originality" when it is the most optimal solution? Unless they create a Full HP vantage skill that combos with LaD, Fury+Vantage is the best combo for Ryoma on defense teams.

[chirp]

4 minutes ago, Clogon said:

Yes, it is called Firesweep Bow+.

Why would there be any "originality" when it is the most optimal solution? Unless they create a Full HP vantage skill that combos with LaD, Fury+Vantage is the best combo for Ryoma on defense teams.

Thank you for the information on Firesweep Bow+, I didn't know that. It's the bow used by Mist, correct ?

On the other hand, if there is a universal solution, then it would seem that the Counter+Vantage defense strategy is futile. While I accept your assertion that Fury-Vantage is optimal on Ryoma, I'm not sure that Ryoma has a place in a defense squad.

[MrSmokestack]

3 minutes ago, chirp said:

Thank you for the information on Firesweep Bow+, I didn't know that. It's the bow used by Mist, correct ?

On the other hand, if there is a universal solution, then it would seem that the Counter+Vantage defense strategy is futile. While I accept your assertion that Fury-Vantage is optimal on Ryoma, I'm not sure that Ryoma has a place in a defense squad.

Mist is a healer. Firesweep is Faye's bow.

Anyone with Distant Counter + Vantage / Quick Riposte is good for a defense team. Nowi, Ryoma and friends do it better since they free up their A slot. They all have respectable defenses as well as solid offenses, between Triangle Adept Nowi one-shotting Falchions and Ryoma being too fast to double in general, especially with Fury.

Edited May 11, 2017 by MrSmokestack

[Raven]

Ryoma is pretty easy to deal with these days when you have Kagero and Azura in your team.

[chirp]

47 minutes ago, MrSmokestack said:

Mist is a healer. Firesweep is Faye's bow.

Anyone with Distant Counter + Vantage / Quick Riposte is good for a defense team. Nowi, Ryoma and friends do it better since they free up their A slot. They all have respectable defenses as well as solid offenses, between Triangle Adept Nowi one-shotting Falchions and Ryoma being too fast to double in general, especially with Fury.

Thank you for fixing my mistake.

As for the units with Counter, I agree with your observations. However, they all seem to have the same weak point: a low resistance. A squad with two mages of different colors can entirely ignore the Counter+Vantage setup by preemptively one-shotting such units. The new arena maps have even made this easier with their openness.

I've had 15 fights since the change in the Arena format. All deathless. Every fight included at least one Counter+Vantage unit, most of them had two, the last one even had four Hectors on the bridge. I'm using Reinhardt + Cecilia. The only danger comes from squads with a setup similar to mine, i.e. tome users with Reposition or Swap and one dancer, because the number of combinations increases the probability of a mistake on my side.

Edited May 11, 2017 by chirp

[bethany81707]

Looking at what's been said above in no particular order... what do I want in a defensive team?

I've got a Ryoma and Hector (though neither has a B Skill), and I'm working on a Nowi. Units such as Robin (probably F) and Olivia are looking pretty good, as is Klein. Other units I may have overlooked in the signature besides Sonja (no, not Nino's step-mother...)

Right now, I'm sitting on Ryoma/Robin/Sharena/Klein, and I'd like to try and make adjustments.

[Clogon]

1 hour ago, chirp said:

Thank you for the information on Firesweep Bow+, I didn't know that. It's the bow used by Mist, correct ?

On the other hand, if there is a universal solution, then it would seem that the Counter+Vantage defense strategy is futile. While I accept your assertion that Fury-Vantage is optimal on Ryoma, I'm not sure that Ryoma has a place in a defense squad.

The universal solution is also very expensive and frankly can't ORKO much. Takumi is the best Archer to use it as he has the best offensive stats at 32 ATK 33 SPD. Sadly just like the bow, he is locked to 5*. Then you will need LaD 3 which is also locked to 5*. In total, you need to roll 2 5* exclusive archers (Takumi and Faye) then you will need to promote Hana to 5* to give LaD3. Hopefully the Takumi is +SPD without being -ATK so that you get 47 ATK and 41 SPD. Even with this build, you won't be ORKO'ing many All Range Counter units. Vantage speedsters won't be doubled; while, QR users are too tanky. A +Spd Setsuna with LaD can double almost everything but her ATK is so low that she has even more trouble ORKO'ing things.

 

16 minutes ago, chirp said:

However, they all seem to have the same weak point: a low resistance.

This applies to almost every single unit in the game... There is a reason why Reinhardt deletes almost everyone. Since you run at least 1/2 Horse Emblem with Cecilia, it is even easier to counter every unit.

Besides, if they ever make an all range unit that cannot be ORKO or OHKO'd and can delete anyone on counter, deathless steaks will be impossible without the -Sweep skills and weapons which are ALL locked to 5* units.

Edited May 11, 2017 by Clogon

[chirp]

6 minutes ago, Clogon said:

Besides, if they ever make an all range unit that cannot be ORKO or OHKO'd and can delete anyone on counter

That would require high ATK, high SPD high DEF and high RES. Maybe if Hector and Linde had a baby...

[GinRei]

11 hours ago, Korath88 said:

Alright, why is this working?

Apparently 3 swords and a dancer makes an excellent defence team? Red stacking new meta?

I'm guessing it's the Alm + Ryoma part, and Zephiel has nothing to do with it.  Assuming your Alm still has Windsweep, it's very easy to forget that exists and expect to kill on counter (especially with QR), only to end up getting smashed in the face and not doing anything back.

1 hour ago, Ledrert said:

Yeah, well, I understand the Vantage thing... But they are all Fury. There is not even an ounce of originality. It's too bad.

And why always Reinhardt ? I mean, there is Linde, M!Robin, Nowi, Effie... There's so much possibility. That's why I said it was a easy pick thanks to Dire Thunder... Well, it's my point of view, anyway...

You're using M!Robin with Triangle Adept.  Why/how are you complaining about originality?

[Korath88]

1 minute ago, GinRei said:

I'm guessing it's the Alm + Ryoma part, and Zephiel has nothing to do with it.  Assuming your Alm still has Windsweep, it's very easy to forget that exists and expect to kill on counter (especially with QR), only to end up getting smashed in the face and not doing anything back.

You're using M!Robin with Triangle Adept.  Why/how are you complaining about originality?

Actually both Alm and Ryoma have vantage. Maybe that's it?

[GinRei]

Ryoma definitely, not sure if that'd be too surprising on Alm given that he doesn't have distance counter (unless you slaughtered a poor Hector for him...).

[Korath88]

2 minutes ago, GinRei said:

Ryoma definitely, not sure if that'd be too surprising on Alm given that he doesn't have distance counter (unless you slaughtered a poor Hector for him...).

Nah. He just has fury and vantage. Though Ninian has wings of mercy to go along with that.

Ryoma still has defiant Atk since I've only ever pulled 1 Hinata 

Zephiel has pivot so he's not left behind 

Edited May 11, 2017 by Korath88

[Othin]

Almost got a deathless run, but lost Xander at the end of the last fight. After Sharena narrowly avoided death by using Vantage to survive an attack from Tiki I hadn't been prepared for, I tried to have Xander deal with Olivia by taking a hit to get his Bonfire online to OHKO her before her second hit could finish him off, but I forgot that his own Vantage prevented that from working. Xander, Sharena, and Hector were all completely unable to take on Olivia by that point, but I think if I'd realized it was necessary, Anna could have survived long enough to weaken Olivia and get her into the range where Xander or Sharena could have finished her off.

Currently at 4,769 points and rank 6,019 in Tier 15, barely within the 6,223 cutoff for +2. I could start burning Dueling Crests if necessary, although that might be wasteful since even if I start reaching the top tiers this early, I don't think I could actually keep climbing them yet. There will be room for non-merged teams in them eventually, but not much room when they first form. From the looks of things, Tier 20 will eventually have at least 14k players at a time (since there seems to be at least 200k players in Tier 7+), but when it first forms in a few weeks out of players who made the first 10% cutoff in Tier 15, then the first 50% cutoff in Tier 17, then the first 40% cutoff in Tier 18, then the first 35% cutoff in Tier 19, it'll only have about 435 players. (Also most of the players in Tier 20 at a given time will really be in the 20/19 alternating limbo.)

[Ice Dragon]

4 hours ago, chirp said:

xxx-Counter + Vantage foo is probably one of the reasons you see so many blue literate horsepersons. They solve the problem when foo != Hector.

Now I wonder: is there a universal solution for all values of foo ? 

For all vanilla +10 values of foo except +Res Effie, +Spd Peri, +Res Hawkeye, Arthur, Sheena, +Res Minerva, +Res Camilla, Julia, Nino, Robin (F), +Res Fae, +Spd Niles, and Felicia, you can use

+10 Olwen [+Atk, -HP/Def/Res] (Dire Thunder, [Ardent Sacrifice], Draconic Aura, Life and Death 3, Desperation 3, [passive C], S Atk +1) with a Hone Cavalry buff.

And yes, this Olwen kills +10 Hector if he's not on a fortification and has no buffs. (+0 Olwen does the same to +0 Hector.)

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

5 hours ago, Skala_Bundet said:

I'm interested in more Arena score min-maxing and want to see how far we can deduce the arena offense point score calculations.

To work towards this it would be useful to have deathless run scores and the characters that participated with their skills. Since surrendering for different reasons skews scores, it would be nice if you could mention how often and why you surrendered (for example to avoid low point opponents). Let's see how long it takes to get some results...

 

Anyway this format should be sufficient for my needs:

 

I'm assuming you only have vanilla skills otherwise? What are the C skills your Reinhardt and Ninian are using? Spur Atk 2 and Fortify Def 2 or Goad Cavalry and Fortify Dragons? Did you keep Knockback on Barst? Did you ever surrender during your run?

First results on my side:

5/11 - offense 4780 rank in tier 15 4456 (no surrenders)

Team: (lvl 40)

5* Anna (187,Fury 3,Reposition,Iceberg,Speed+1 Seal)

5* Reinhardt (157,Fury 2, Smite, Spur Atk 2, Attack+1 Seal)

5* Sanaki (164,Rally Speed,Draconic Aura,Swordbreaker 3, HP+3 Seal)

5* Julia+1 (167,Rally Defense,Lancebreaker 3, Hone Spd 3)

 

I can even give a little more info on the individual matches if it helps.

Tier 15 score of 4812 (no surrenders; 688, 688, 688, 684, 686, 690, 688):

• May 10 7:00 PM PT - #1827
• May 11 9:30 AM PT - #2400

 

Team:

• Soren 5* (+HP/-Spd; 163) - Rexcal+, Rally Res, Growing Wind, Atk +1, Watersweep 3, Fort Res 3
• Nowi 5* +1 (+Atk/-HP; 177) - LBreath+, Reposition, Bonfire, TA3, Vantage 3, Spur Res 3, Spd Seal +1
• Eirika 5* (+Atk/-Def; 189) - Sieg, Rally Def, Moonbow, Fury 3, Drag Back, Hone Spd 3, Atk Seal +1
• Nino 5* +1 (+Spd/-Def) - Gblade+, Draw Back, Draconic Aura, Fury 3, Desperation 3, Hone Atk 3, HP Seal +3