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Arena Discussion Thread (inc. Assault)


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6 minutes ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't see why weapons would be treated differently. They're just skills like any other.

If weapons are just skills does that means a weaponed Roy can beat any Fox?

 

 

 

 

Im out

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1 hour ago, Ice Dragon said:

I don't see why weapons would be treated differently. They're just skills like any other.

Weapons is a bad example perhaps, let me try the other way around: 

The maximum cost of skills/weapons differs: weapons cost maximum 400 SP, specials 500 SP, A-passive/assists 300 SP and B/C-passive 240 SP. If @Johann is right and only 4 of 6 apply to the arena score, then B/C-passive would become obsolete in sense of arena scoring.

What standard value would I have to take for the 5th and 6th skill? Is this standard value equal for all skills, even if the maximum cost differs? 

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1 hour ago, mampfoid said:

How do I calculate the score then? Do I have to use a kind of base for the dump skills? Are weapons handled like normal skills in this case? 

Yeah, exclusive weapons are worth 400 SP while other 5* weapons (ie: Silver Sword+) are 300. I don't think the exact formula for calculating Arena scores are figured out since they depend on the enemy's point value as well, but generally, to calculate a unit's value:

(Stars × 5) + (BST / 10) + (SP of four highest valued skills / 200) + (Merges × 1)

Not 100% sure about the stars value thing, but it does make a difference, and a 4*+10 unit wouldn't have the same Arena score as an otherwise identical 5*+5 unit beyond the lower BST. Also note that Summoner Support doesn't apply to BST for Arena score.

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14 minutes ago, Johann said:

Yeah, exclusive weapons are worth 400 SP while other 5* weapons (ie: Silver Sword+) are 300. I don't think the exact formula for calculating Arena scores are figured out since they depend on the enemy's point value as well, but generally, to calculate a unit's value:

(Stars × 5) + (BST / 10) + (SP of four highest valued skills / 200) + (Merges × 1)

Not 100% sure about the stars value thing, but it does make a difference, and a 4*+10 unit wouldn't have the same Arena score as an otherwise identical 5*+5 unit beyond the lower BST. Also note that Summoner Support doesn't apply to BST for Arena score.

Since B/C-skills are worth maximum 1.2 arena points, its hard to tell if they count or not. Same for seals, but they help to win matches, therefore its better to use them than not. 

I'm not sure about the added score for rarity. With that formula a team of 4 +0 Hectors would score maximum 724 in arena, which seems too high?

Edited by mampfoid
Hectors score
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1 minute ago, mampfoid said:

Since B/C-skills are worth maximum 1.2 arena points, its hard to tell if they count or not. Same for seals, but they help to win matches, therefore its better to use them than not. 

I'm not sure about that added score for rarity. With that formula a team of 4 +0 Hectors would score 720 in arena, which seems too high?

The testing to verify this involved going from equipping 6 skills to 4, with no change in Arena scoring. If you actually have a unit who can equip four skills to total 1500 SP (500, 400, 300, 300), then yeah, the last two skills could be anything without making a difference in score. Side note, Beorc's/Sacae's Blessing are also 300 SP in the B slot. And yeah I agree with seals, though in Arena Assault, I feel like I need to save that kind of help for later teams instead of my first round crew.

I wouldn't bother trying to calculate the exact score you'd get from a single Arena battle, but using the formulas we know (200 SP = 10 BST = 1 merge = 1 Arena point) does tell you a unit's comparative value, so you can look at what you have and determine your highest scoring team possible.

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3 minutes ago, Johann said:

The testing to verify this involved going from equipping 6 skills to 4, with no change in Arena scoring. If you actually have a unit who can equip four skills to total 1500 SP (500, 400, 300, 300), then yeah, the last two skills could be anything without making a difference in score. Side note, Beorc's/Sacae's Blessing are also 300 SP in the B slot. And yeah I agree with seals, though in Arena Assault, I feel like I need to save that kind of help for later teams instead of my first round crew.

I wouldn't bother trying to calculate the exact score you'd get from a single Arena battle, but using the formulas we know (200 SP = 10 BST = 1 merge = 1 Arena point) does tell you a unit's comparative value, so you can look at what you have and determine your highest scoring team possible.

True, i didn't think of Beorc's/Sacae's Blessing, but they can't be inherited anyway. 

It wasn't my intention in the beginning to calculate something exact, I guess I was somehow captured by that matter when I started to do spreadsheet calculations. Now i have something to compare my units and to estimate a "close enough" value for the score. Thanks! 

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20 minutes ago, Johann said:

The testing to verify this involved going from equipping 6 skills to 4, with no change in Arena scoring.

I just tried that (not gonna lie, I was highly skeptical of the whole only-4-skills-count thing), and the score values I was getting definitely dropped, going from the ~706-716 range to the ~698-708 range. Was that “test” done by only changing skills for one unit on the team? I can see how that might not have a very easy-to-observe impact.

Edited by LordFrigid
Minor clarifications.
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3 hours ago, LordFrigid said:

I just tried that (not gonna lie, I was highly skeptical of the whole only-4-skills-count thing), and the score values I was getting definitely dropped, going from the ~706-716 range to the ~698-708 range. Was that “test” done by only changing skills for one unit on the team? I can see how that might not have a very easy-to-observe impact.

I know it is probably obvious, but just to clarify, you did unequip the least valuable skills correct?

Regardless, I'm pretty surprised it only dropped an average of 8 points. With what we thought we knew before, it should have dropped 16 points.

While the only 4 skills counting does seem strange, It does seem that it may be close to being true? It could possibly be X out of the 24 total team skills. Like 20 of the 24. With a minimum of 4 skills counted per character. That scenario would explain why taking 2 skills off of a single character would have no effect, but taking 2 skills off of all characters dropped it by only 8 instead of 16.

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1 hour ago, Hawk King said:

I know it is probably obvious, but just to clarify, you did unequip the least valuable skills correct?

Regardless, I'm pretty surprised it only dropped an average of 8 points. With what we thought we knew before, it should have dropped 16 points.

While the only 4 skills counting does seem strange, It does seem that it may be close to being true? It could possibly be X out of the 24 total team skills. Like 20 of the 24. With a minimum of 4 skills counted per character. That scenario would explain why taking 2 skills off of a single character would have no effect, but taking 2 skills off of all characters dropped it by only 8 instead of 16.

1) Yes; the assist (it’s Goad Flier Emblem, so the assists were all Reposition: only 150 each) and one 200 point skill off of each unit, where all other skills were 200 or higher.

2) The sample size wasn’t super-huge, I only used 3-4 crests because I didn’t really want to go any further than that. The results were the same for AA, so I’ll just use that if I need to do any further testing. But no, the drop was definitely not that steep.

3) That kinda seems arbitrary to me. I can try rolling AA with a really high point team and see if I get any differences with 20/24, I guess. Edit: I tried with a team that got 740-742s - dropping the 4 lowest point skills started seeing 736s, so that idea’s out. I’m not sure why I went and tried it instead of just saying that unit scores are all calculated individually, now that I mention it...I already know that they are, for reasons I don’t have time to get into right now.

Edited by LordFrigid
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Will be ending my second week with no defenses today, barring a miracle before then. It feels so futile when despite having good units and making decent teams nothing's working these days. It's bumming me out even worse than bad pulls, since it feels like I should be able to make something work, but I can't, while pulls are at least pure RNG.

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8 hours ago, Alkaid said:

Will be ending my second week with no defenses today, barring a miracle before then. It feels so futile when despite having good units and making decent teams nothing's working these days. It's bumming me out even worse than bad pulls, since it feels like I should be able to make something work, but I can't, while pulls are at least pure RNG.

Good offensive Arena units does not mean they are equally good on Arena defense. The most effective Arena defense teams are ones with triple ranged cavalry units with Hone Attack on all of them.

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1 hour ago, Infinite Dreams said:

Arena Assault: 4862 - Rank 3604.

This hurts. I'm at 4834, my all time highest and I'm right outside the top 5k. My team gets occasional 688 teams and that cripples my score.

 

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23 minutes ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

Let that sink in for a second. 4992 is no longer good enough to break top 1000. I need a disgusting meme, stat.

I just grinded out an AA run when I realized how late it was. 5016 is good for #886

Was 4992 good enough last week?

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8 minutes ago, Hawk King said:

I just grinded out an AA run when I realized how late it was. 5016 is good for #886

Was 4992 good enough last week?

I guess I can't say for sure. 4974 was about 100 ranks away from top 1000, so I'm guessing probably? It's just a bit of an interesting trend, since I think it was the second week of AA where I got around #800 with either 4962 or 4964. This week I added Aether to Nino and a merge to Eirika and I still feel like the threshold is outrunning me (and that's after adding 2 merges to Nowi the week before!).

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1 hour ago, Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi said:

Weekly update:

  • Regular Arena score of 4974 (Nino +7 with Aether, Nowi +10, Eirika +1, Elincia) - #1481/4212
  • Arena Assault score of 4992(!) (Nino +7 with Aether, Nowi +10, Eirika +1, Ike) - #1088

Let that sink in for a second. 4992 is no longer good enough to break top 1000. I need a disgusting meme, stat.

Should have run an armor with your +10 Nowi, boss

Edited by JSND Alter Dragon Boner
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Offense score of 5002 (T20) remains in T20, combining with a defense score of 590 for max rewards.

Teams faced (streak):

Spoiler

Ls8Lmkc.png

Teams faced (other, slightly-less-large-than-usual image warning):

Spoiler

B5ydDoX.png

I broke out Flier emblem this week, using Caeda (duh), Corrin: Novice Vacationer, and Camilla: Spring Princess. It's a Goad Team, so I had a lot of fun laughing at Panic Ploy and Beorc's Blessing. They steamrolled so hard that I'm strongly considering making it my permanent Arena core. The score drop wasn't too bad, but that was mostly due to using a lightly merged Elincia as my bonus unit for the first few days; I'm expecting mid to high 4900s with an Askr unit. Next week I'll probably be running Anna or Valter as my bonus unit, depending on how I'm feeling. I do need to get accustomed to the tighter positioning constraints of 1 Spur (Atk) and 3 Goads, but on the other hand, Valter actually surprised me as I was building him up in the Tempest Trials, and I may just end up using him at least a little bit for the fun of it.

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1 hour ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Should have run an armor with your +10 Nowi, boss

I would have if it would have mattered. I guess I should look at trying to obtain a merged armour or something dumb like that. As is, if I tried to sub in my Hector +0, according to the approximate formula, it'd be a point loss compared to any of my merged characters and it'd break evenish with Ike, since the BST and Distant Counter SP advantage is lost to Ike having Aether.

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Season 34 Results:

Score: 4,836
Defense: 582
Rank: Tier 19 --> 20

dYxvhsd.png

This week was probably the least fun I’ve had with the arena since launch.  The CYL banner Negan’d the shit out of my prized flier emblem core, and this may be the last week I attempt to run it until I acquire some much-needed tools – DC or the release of some inheritable DC axe Narcian can use, and a Wo Dao for Caeda.  Right now Narcian can bait Reinhardt easily enough, but without being able to retaliate just allows the enemy B!Lyn to Reposition him back to safety.  The amount of Reinhardt + B!Lyn combos I had to deal with this week was nothing short of infuriating.  One or the other I could deal with, but both makes for an incredibly frustrating match. 

Throw in B!Ike and a refresher, and I’m in for some hell.  I probably spent around 10+ crests just to get a deathless run this week.

Arena Assault:

ql4VmLz.png

Rank: 2,747

Hall of Fame:

Spoiler

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The one silver lining of this arena season.  I found a true man of culture!  I never hit send so fast on the friend request screen.

9XPO3se.png

The other villainous male Wyvern Rider joins us as well.  First one I’ve seen to forgo the default Iote Shield.

8T7JrQG.png

Has Laslow ever been on a banner before?  Regardless, I thought this was impressive.

LB2E9rC.png

Darting Blow seems like a slept-on skill to me.  That +6 Spd is really annoying to deal with, and I imagine this guy is pretty solid in the player’s hands with Desperation. 

Previous Season Results:

 

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5 hours ago, XRay said:

Good offensive Arena units does not mean they are equally good on Arena defense. The most effective Arena defense teams are ones with triple ranged cavalry units with Hone Attack on all of them.

I know, and I've run horse teams like that, but no dice. Even on weeks like these with the dreaded double wall map they haven't panned out well. Granted I'm using a +spd Olwen over my -atk Rein as the best I've got to work with.

I also doubt I'm the only one who refuses to surrender when using a unit to horse teams now. With Lyn's introduction they're so common and obnoxious that if I do lose a unit I'll still finish the map and surrender my run to somebody else after if I don't feel like just finishing the streak. You have to either wipe somebody out or ruin their streak without making them hate you too much to surrender.

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2,500 feathers for 4,782 offence points;
   900 feathers for 578 defence points;
1,800 feathers and 4 orbs for demoting into tier 18;
1,700 feathers and 15 coins for assault rank 23,607 with ≈4,600 points.

6,900 feathers, 4 orbs, and 15 coins overall this week. Nice.

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6 minutes ago, Alkaid said:

I know, and I've run horse teams like that, but no dice. Even on weeks like these with the dreaded double wall map they haven't panned out well. Granted I'm using a +spd Olwen over my -atk Rein as the best I've got to work with.

I also doubt I'm the only one who refuses to surrender when using a unit to horse teams now. With Lyn's introduction they're so common and obnoxious that if I do lose a unit I'll still finish the map and surrender my run to somebody else after if I don't feel like just finishing the streak. You have to either wipe somebody out or ruin their streak without making them hate you too much to surrender.

Hm... I will try using Leo, Cecilia, and Olwen tonight and see if I get anything tomorrow morning. My units are merged though so I am not sure if that will be a factor.

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