Camilla and Elise

[NinjaMonkey]

2 minutes ago, Sarcopathic said:

I'm implying that said relationship would spawn an inbreeding situation, not that it IS an inbreeding situation.

You can't know that would happen for definite, though. Besides, you only get one child from a Corrin X Camilla/Elise pairing (Kana), so how is this incest supposed to come about?

[Ken Masters]

8 minutes ago, NinjaMonkey said:

You can't know that would happen for definite, though. Besides, you only get one child from a Corrin X Camilla/Elise pairing (Kana), so how is this incest supposed to come about?

You do remember the part where I specifically said "APPLYING REAL LIFE PSYCHOLLOGY ON A NINTENDO GAME", right?

Because if you don't, then that confirms to me that you're not reading (properly, at least) what I've proposed.

Yes, of course this is all up in the air and hardly plausible. OP asked a question based on moral code (not gameplay wise) so I answered with my views on why it isn't okay. Inbreeding as a consecuence being my main reason. But this is only from a moral code point of view

The "they only have one child" answer is gameplay wise. IRL you cannot tell how many children a couple can have, which is why I bring my argument.

 

Again, learn to differentiate between those 2 things, the question from a moral code and the question gameplay wise. You cannot counter an argument based on real life moral code with gameplay stuff, in the same way you can't do it the other way around :/

Edited February 17, 2017 by Sarcopathic

[SullyMcGully]

Alright, allow me to get quasi-spiritual here:

I would be completely against marrying someone who is your adopted sibling, especially if you grew up together. The reason for this is that siblings, both biological and non-biological, serve an important purpose as non-romantic friends. I can talk to my sisters about things I wouldn't dare talk to another female about, because of the mutual understanding that there is not and never will be a romantic aspect of our relationship.

If we, as a society, cross the incest line in any manner at all, then we are basically destroying the bond that makes brothers and sisters different from other friends and destroying that friendship "niche". 

You could bring up childhood friends who you grew up with, but when I think about people who are "like a sister" to me, I would actually greatly prefer to keep those relationships platonic.

Nintendo/IS did a really bad job with Corrin's relationship with his families. The way it turned out is extremely weird and controversial. However, it is a game, so don't make too big of a deal out of it. Just remember if you did that in real life, a lot of people would give you strange looks. 

[Lightchao42]

Out-of-universe, do whatever you want because you aren't Corrin (despite what the advertisements may tell you).

In-universe, though, it's both weird and doesn't make much sense. Corrin believed Camilla and Elise (and Xander and Leo) to be their biological siblings for the majority of their life, which should've prevented any attraction from forming between them. In this case, it shouldn't matter that they're not actually related.

Corrin and Hinoka/Takumi/Sakura is also weird (but slightly less so, arguably) because the latter three always thought that Corrin was their actual sibling, Corrin comes to believe they're siblings, and they both fall in love before they learn they're not related. Ryoma knows but Corrin doesn't, though we don't know when Sumeragi told him about that so it's hard to tell how Ryoma's feelings developed.

Corrin/Azura is a special case because they met as adults, they initially don't know they're related, they only find out near the end of Revelation, and they live in a time period where cousin marriage is more acceptable among royalty.

[Res]

15 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

Just remember if you did that in real life, a lot of people would give you strange looks. 

Thanks for the reminder, dad.

Are you not platonic friends with any women who aren't your sisters? I have three brothers and I can name at least half a dozen men I'm better able to confide in than my brothers - and with whom I'm better friends. I platonically love my siblings because society obligates me to but I only have one out of the five (a sister) I'd really consider a friend. I believe in the Westermarck effect but I don't know that siblings necessarily serve a 'purpose'. They're just people who happen to share DNA with me. 

Edited February 17, 2017 by Res

[Thunderstar]

In a real life situation no.

Firstly even though they are not related, Corrin grew up with them thinking they are his sisters. Wanting to marry one of them just after he knows about this, is just wrong because it pretty much ruins their familial bonds in my opinion.
Also Elise is technically an adult around 10-12 years old or something and Camilla can be crazy at times.

Gameplay wise do whatever you want, it's just a game after all and you're not Corrin.

10 minutes ago, Lightchao42 said:

Out-of-universe, do whatever you want because you aren't Corrin (despite what the advertisements may tell you).

In-universe, though, it's both weird and doesn't make much sense. Corrin believed Camilla and Elise (and Xander and Leo) to be their biological siblings for the majority of their life, which should've prevented any attraction from forming between them. In this case, it shouldn't matter that they're not actually related.

Corrin and Hinoka/Takumi/Sakura is also weird (but slightly less so, arguably) because the latter three always thought that Corrin was their actual sibling, Corrin comes to believe they're siblings, and they both fall in love before they learn they're not related. Ryoma knows but Corrin doesn't, though we don't know when Sumeragi told him about that so it's hard to tell how Ryoma's feelings developed.

Corrin/Azura is a special case because they met as adults, they initially don't know they're related, they only find out near the end of Revelation, and they live in a time period where cousin marriage is more acceptable among royalty.

Pretty much this as well.
I also think that Corrin being able to marry the Hoshidan siblings quite weird for the same reasons. 

[Sarki Soliloquy]

Moral projection has no place in fiction. Whether or not the original writer(s) think incest is good/bad, the realistic moral bearing of it will do nothing to affect its standing in the Fates universe.

 

Even if they came out and said 'incest is wincest', I'd still respect their decision. People are allowed to speak out & disagree, but I certainly wouldn't call the banners & force censorship on their behalf.

 

34 minutes ago, SullyMcGully said:

Alright, allow me to get quasi-spiritual here:

I would be completely against marrying someone who is your adopted sibling, especially if you grew up together. The reason for this is that siblings, both biological and non-biological, serve an important purpose as non-romantic friends. I can talk to my sisters about things I wouldn't dare talk to another female about, because of the mutual understanding that there is not and never will be a romantic aspect of our relationship.

If we, as a society, cross the incest line in any manner at all, then we are basically destroying the bond that makes brothers and sisters different from other friends and destroying that friendship "niche". 

You could bring up childhood friends who you grew up with, but when I think about people who are "like a sister" to me, I would actually greatly prefer to keep those relationships platonic.

This is what happens when you submit to the idea that 'men and women can't be just friends'. I dunno about you, but I'd certainly feel more comfortable with someone I'd trust as intimately 'as a sister' handling something as delicate as romantic strife - as opposed to a relative stranger I arranged a few dates with.

 

This mentality actually pushes away intimacy (as closeness in this context) with your preferred gender because of the fear that crossing a certain line will inevitably bring up romantic intentions. With this in mind, then why would you even want to confide intense emotional baggage to someone related to you by blood in the first place?

Edited February 17, 2017 by Sarki

[RedEyedDrake]

@Sarc:

1 and 2. How is it hypocritical to convey to the children that they have more options in their lives beyond the sort that their parents made? That they don't have to follow them down the same path if they don't want to? That they shouldn't feel pressured or obligated to try and mimic their parents' life decisions just because said decisions were made by said parents of theirs? Also, there's a difference between the overt "acts" that a child notices and the "context" of something, isn't there? Hence the existence of phrases like "it makes sense in context".

3. How am I "validating their feelings" (And whose feelings? The parents'? What sort of genuine, mutual love which you intend to last if you can help it needs to be outright "validated")? Overly young children are kept away from adult material (be it the intercourse related sort, the violence related sort or overly heavy themes like, say, manipulative behavior or mental torment) so that the associated mental strain wouldn't affect overly sensitive minds. Most adults can't handle knowing about cases of consanguinamory responsibly so why not give the children time to become sounder of judgement?

4. Like I said. "Sufficiently old women having children". Being aware of the much higher risk, in this case due to the family's genetic history (and the genetic history of only a single generation back to boot), but going through with it anyway. You can advice strongly against it but it isn't ultimately your decision to make (at this point, you can only help them through out any fallout or be joyous for them in case of success, you being one of their loved ones and all). Thus the emphasis on giving the children the chance to make their own conscious decision in due time, without having it be because of any sort of pressure or feeling of obligation in either direction. Not to mention that the state of being in love as a heterosexual couple does not necessarily lead to childbirth, even when there aren't any biological problems to prevent the conception. Especially not in this day and age.

Additionally, humans are sapient creatures. We, generally speaking, aren't slaves to (as in, aren't completely and absolutely controlled by) our instincts. In fact, with the way I see it, morality is outright proof of humanity not being slaves to our instincts and having the valor of mind to rise above them, if not always then at least sometimes, and being aware of the possibility of rising above them even when we don't follow through on said awareness for one reason or another in a given situation. Thus, I think that morality shouldn't be used as a tool for the justification of the persecution of a select few who fall outside the norm. But, as with all of the more basal influences, it can be argued that sometimes instincts hold too much of a sway over the way society functions, including the formation of select moral codes and, as a result, the existence or non-existence of laws that might be derived from the formation of the aforementioned select moral codes.

Additionally, while moral codes did and do shape the laws, I believe that it can also be said that the existence or non-existence of certain laws can indeed shape the collective way of thinking in regards as to what is the norm, thus marking anyone who falls outside said norm as targets for condemnation and with the aforementioned existence or non-existence of certain laws serving as proof of the correctness of the resulting status quo to the aforementioned collective. The problem is that the same principle also applies to the existence or non-existence of laws that are derived from the aforementioned select moral codes that are overly influenced by instincts.

In summary, it can be said that I do not believe instincts to be a viable reason for someone's condemnation, not even when they held and/or hold too much of a sway over the formation and/or continued existence of certain moral codes and/or laws. Instincts are guidelines for survival and a tool for processing certain signals better than the conscious mind while said conscious mind should be the one who is in the driver's sit when it comes to more complex things. In a 'word', the intricacies of morality are beyond what instincts can handle and thus shouldn't hold sway in such matters beyond, as I said, being the most basic of guidelines that you take a look at and start working up (way, way, way up) from, even should you reach a point where the guidelines of instinct hold little to no influence over the final product of said work.

On a slightly different note, there's the thing you said to NinjaMonkey on the subject of having multiple children. No, you can't tell how many children a given pregnancy would result in the absolute earliest stages of the process. However, the very fact that having multiple children in a single pregnancy (even in the most common scenario of having multiple children in a single pregnancy, the fraternal twins) is considered a noteworthy and peculiar occurrence makes it obvious that it is much more probable for any given pregnancy to result in the birth of a single child. Meaning that it is more likely that the multiple children of a given couple were born via different pregnancies. And therein lies the choice of trying to avoid more than a single pregnancy.

 

 

@Sully:

Thirding what Res and Sarki said. I also disagree with the notion that a man and a woman with no familial relation at all can't be genuinely content with the relationship of being platonic friends with each other.

Edited February 17, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[Loki Laufeyson]

7 hours ago, Motendra said:

Y'all

Its a freaking game: Don't put too much stock into whether you do or don't.That being said, I've done so, purely for the sake of adding their support to the library.

If the whole "sibling" stance is such a concern, why marry any of the royals then? Doesn't stop peeps from wedding Leo, Xander and Takumi, now does it?

Just do you. No one's gonna penalize you for it.

 

fucking this. Its a game, who cares. If you care THAT much due to morals and finding it icky, dont marry those characters. I quietly apply my own morals to various things in FE (like not marrying second gen cuz...guys...im like over 30 and thats weird. And not marrying the royals in Fates.) and its enjoyable enough for me. But you are under zero obligation whatsoever to take the "wholesome" path cuz this is fiction and a video game. 

Note: I did marry Camilla on my first run of the game. But it was mostly cuz my MU wasnt a self insert character and i wanted him to be a bit edgy. Gameplay wise, it was kinda cool cuz it produced a good Kana and Camilla is a bomb partner unit. (shes bomb either way). But when it came to the fluff and story, it was a disappointing match and more than a bit awkward that MU keeps calling her Sister. So i didnt repeat the process on future runs except that bullshit Revelation file where the MU married Xander for optimization purposes.

[Sunwoo]

It's a game. Do whatever you want.

That said, I'm of the opinion that letting people marry the Hoshidan and Nohrian siblings (and making the Hoshidans not blood-related to Corrin) was one of the biggest mistakes IS made in this game.

Something that really confuses me though is when people pick Nohr, saying that family is more than blood and that the Nohrians are more your siblings than the Hoshidans, but then turn around and marry one of the Nohrian siblings citing that because you're not blood-related to them they're not really your siblings and it's okay to marry them. Consistency please? Are they your siblings or not?

[RedEyedDrake]

@Sun:

Maybe they mean that as in they are siblings and they would marry them despite (or in light of) the bond that they share but they wouldn't do it if there was an actual blood relation? I mean, at least some of them are like that, maybe? Honestly, if the bond is made of emotions this intense then I'd say that the "actual blood relation or not" part is small potatoes in comparison.

[Sunwoo]

Just now, RedEyedDrake said:

@Sun:

Maybe they mean that as in they are siblings and they would marry them despite (or in light of) the bond that they share but they wouldn't do it if there was an actual blood relation? I mean, at least some of them are like that, maybe? Honestly, if the bond is made of emotions this intense then I'd say that the "actual blood relation or not" part is small potatoes in comparison.

That's called having your cake and eating it too. I honestly don't think there's any deeper meaning or explanation 90% of the time other than "I like Nohr better and I want my husband/waifu even if they're my 'sibling'", but because people can't just admit that they try to make "deep" excuses as to why they picked something but trip and fall flat over whatever they said. I mean, if people like Nohr better and just want to marry their favorite character, who happens to be a sibling, that's fine. Too many people feel that they need to be in the "right" and attempt to justify it poorly, though.

[Naturesshadow]

Nope. It doesn't matter that they're not related, Fates is playing off the sexual fetishes of "banging your sister who's NOT REALLY your sister so there's no issues here" schtick, ESPECIALLY with Camilla. It just feels wrong, especially with Elise who loves you dearly as a younger sister and I feel like marrying her would be betraying the relationship that they have, and of course its morally fucked up. Same goes for the Hoshidan siblings who are in the same boat thanks to IS wussing out on committing to the proper incest (and destroyed the entire point of Birthright all together since there's no blood relation now).

Honestly when I first saw the game I knew they were gonna allow marriage with the royals as people would complain about it's absence, plus its a Japanese game so its their usual bread and butter. 

[SullyMcGully]

Alright, so, seeing the outrage my post has inspired, I think I should clarify a few things:

I did not intend to suggest that you can't have platonic relationships with people of the opposite sex who aren't related to you. I have a lot of female friends who I have no romantic feelings toward. However, I do believe that you shouldn't marry an adopted sibling because there's more to your relationship with your siblings than there is to your other friendships. If the only problem with incest was genetic deformities, then would that suddenly make incest OK if somebody invented a drug that resolved that problem? Not in my opinion. And just because somebody doesn't share your DNA doesn't mean that they're up for grabs as a waifu. A good brother/sister relationship should have no romantic aspects whatsoever.

There's a lot of things someone can only see from sharing your home and parents, but those experiences belong outside of a romantic relationship. I understand that a lot of people (myself included) have had poor relationships with some of their siblings, but in most cases, even if we don't like our siblings, we still love them, and it's a kind of love that's different from what exists in a romantic relationship.

Those are my two cents. I could be wrong. If I've accidentally offended anyone, please refer to my signature.

[Florete]

If it's consensual and you're not hurting anyone, go for it. You don't choose who you love.

Well, you sort of do in Fates, but looking at it like that defeats the purpose.

Edited February 18, 2017 by Florete

[Oricorio]

Jajaja, I love it when people get into silly arguments such as this. Anyways, please try to not pollute our gene pool, okay?

 

I do think it's definitely weird, but it's what you get when you have an intended self-insert as the main character.

[Thinks Their Own Way]

I'm in the camp of it's just a game. What I do in real-life is different from what I do in a video game (I've played GTA)

The pairing the game heavily push are cousins (I know cousin marriage was ok during those times, but it's still cousins marrying each other). The rough notes in the art-book talked about Leo having a crush on Camilla. Camilla and Xander might as be wearing a fuck me sign honestly. The game makes the Avatar x Royal pairings easy to do (fast to the S) so it's not like the game discourage you from doing it. Characters can marry a fox and a wolf in this game (rabbits in awakening) and not question the pseudo-bestiality nature of it (I had a file were Corrin married Keaton).  

[NekoKnight]

Obligatory "it's a game, do whatever you want" disclaimer.

In terms of the narrative, this is how I'd rank the the okay-ness of marrying siblings.
Takumi & Sakura > Camilla* > Ryoma and Hinoka > the other Nohrians

Takumi and Sakura have the best bet because they never knew you and aren't even blood related. Ryoma and Hinoka knew you during their formative years so it would be weird from their end but not from yours because you don't remember them. Last is Elise, Leo and Xander with whom you grew up with. Camilla has a special place in the ranking because while she had frequent contact with you in your youth, she is the only sibling who hints at having non-platonic feelings for Kamui. How would Kamui the character (ie not the player) feel about it? That's a bit more iffy. In his C-A with Camilla he comes off as being uncomfortable with her behavior but it does seem like Camilla is trying to groom him to like her back.

One thing I think people often forget or ignore is how both characters would feel. The game forces the siblings to have romantic feelings for the Avatar even if they wouldn't under most circumstances. Likewise, most people don't consider how Kamui would feel about marrying these people, substituting his feelings for their own (the player didn't grow up with the Nohrians, so why should they have an aversion to incest?).

I really don't like how IS handled the sibling relationships. With the exception of Camilla whose feelings are ambiguous enough to swing both ways (in more ways than one perhaps), but the other siblings fall into the uncomfortable position of Schrödinger's Incest, where the feelings of the character are both platonic and non-platonic until you click that S support. IS, if you want to include incest in future games, cool. Talk about it, address all the baggage that comes along with it, and commit to it. No more of this wishy-washy "Maybe they're like a sister to you, maybe not, tee hee, that's for YOU to decide!" 

4 hours ago, Sunwoo said:

Something that really confuses me though is when people pick Nohr, saying that family is more than blood and that the Nohrians are more your siblings than the Hoshidans, but then turn around and marry one of the Nohrian siblings citing that because you're not blood-related to them they're not really your siblings and it's okay to marry them. Consistency please? Are they your siblings or not?

Also this. Players are about as dishonest about the siblings as the developers are.

Edited February 18, 2017 by NekoKnight

[Res]

3 hours ago, SullyMcGully said:

However, I do believe that you shouldn't marry an adopted sibling because there's more to your relationship with your siblings than there is to your other friendships. If the only problem with incest was genetic deformities, then would that suddenly make incest OK if somebody invented a drug that resolved that problem? Not in my opinion. And just because somebody doesn't share your DNA doesn't mean that they're up for grabs as a waifu. A good brother/sister relationship should have no romantic aspects whatsoever.

Okay, that's much clearer! That I can agree with.

 

[warchiefwilliams]

Well, for starters, Fates is a bloody game. Do what you want. Hell, headcanon Corrin forming a harem with all of his/her siblings. I'm not going to tell you how to enjoy the game. Just because a standard drive in GTA for me ends with around 500 deaths (mostly civilians) doesn't mean that I drive on the sidewalks in reality.

As for the actual question, no. No to the Schrödinger's Incest, no due to pedophilia for Elise (don't lie game, she is no older than 13-14), and no simply because Corrin's lack of character makes it very difficult for me to determine if he is uncomfortable with Camilla's advances or if I am just projecting my own discomfort onto him.   

20 hours ago, NekoKnight said:

I really don't like how IS handled the sibling relationships. With the exception of Camilla whose feelings are ambiguous enough to swing both ways (in more ways than one perhaps), but the other siblings fall into the uncomfortable position of Schrödinger's Incest, where the feelings of the character are both platonic and non-platonic until you click that S support. IS, if you want to include incest in future games, cool. Talk about it, address all the baggage that comes along with it, and commit to it. No more of this wishy-washy "Maybe they're like a sister to you, maybe not, tee hee, that's for YOU to decide!" 

They really should have done this. Hopefully they'll do this for the Geneology remake, maybe. 

[Dark Holy Elf]

Obviously it is "okay" in the sense that it's a game. If you're okay with killing civilians in vidja games then incest is small potatoes by comparison.

That said, no no NO to CorrinxElise. The other siblings make for varying degrees of weird pairings I think but Elise is pretty much a child and idolizes her big brother/sister; for the older to turn that into a sexual/romantic relationship strikes me as massively abusive and is pretty much a textbook case of why incest is so often squicky in real life.

And while a lot of people don't seem to understand this until they think about it, I have to make the usual reminder here that the issue with incest is not in-breeding. Consider that incest is not suddenly okay if:

a) It is a same-sex relationship
b) One of the participants is sterile
c) Birth control is religiously used and/or the the only sexual acts aren't ones which can lead to pregnancy

Incest is problematic because usually one member holds power over the other due to being a parent, older sibling, etc., which tends to make the whole relationship rather rapey.

(Incidentally the other CorrinxSibling possibilities are less problematic because I'm more able to buy that both would consent. Although there's something problematic about the fact that freaking everyone in the game is ready to consent to a relationship with Corrin as long as s/he has the "right" body parts, but that's a whole other rant.)

[RedEyedDrake]

@Elf:

Those aren't supposed to be universal (except for the cases of the older sisters, or so I figure). It is a Schrodinger's cat sort of thing.

Edited February 19, 2017 by RedEyedDrake

[BANRYU]

I don't want to say no on principle (though I think it makes more sense for Corrin to treat them still as siblings, I don't think step-siblings growing romantic feelings for one another is entirely unheard of or morally out of the question or anything), but given the characters themselves, I don't think either is a relationship to shoot for... In the case of Elise, I question whether she's even of legal marrying age (by modern standards anyway-- though granted, grown men marrying teens or even tweens wasn't out of the question in medieval times), and in the case of Camilla, based on her supports with Corrin it doesn't seem like a healthy relationship in general due to Camilla's attachment issues, being a mother figure to Corrin for most of his life (going from this to a romantic relationship is pretty unbalanced in terms of responsibility and respect), and their prior status as siblings in general.

That said, I actually DO like Corrin x Camilla as a potential ship if for no other reason than its dark/tragic potential-- though as I've said it's by no means a good or healthy relationship. But I think it COULD be interesting.

Edited February 20, 2017 by BANRYU

[NekoKnight]

5 hours ago, BANRYU said:

That said, I actually DO like Corrin x Camilla as a potential ship if for no other reason than its dark/tragic potential-- though as I've said it's by no means a good or healthy relationship. But I think it COULD be interesting.

I also have this morbid curiosity. lol

 

[Captain Karnage]

no they're still half siblings

and the Westermarck effect would still be imprinted on Elise (def. it's why you don't get any attraction to your siblings)

also Corin shouldn't have any attraction to his/her Nohrian siblings becasue he was raised with his siblings from a very young age, so it should be imprinted on Corrin that these are my siblings