Do Bows have any place in the Weapon Triangle

[Shadow Mir]

19 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

Shinon is most definitely broken in Radiant Dawn. The guy is a dodge monster with high HP and decent defense, will double everything in the game, and crit on pretty much every attack, if not activating Deadeye and killing the unit he fights instantly anyway with tripled damage (or putting it to sleep if it somehow survives, as it were). He has great availability, starts off strong, and never slows down.

Takumi, though, isn't nearly on Shinon's level.

Takumi in Heroes is stronger and/or more dangerous than Takumi is in Fates, funny enough. And Shinon is definitely not balanced. He's not quite on Haar tier, in all fairness, but that's mostly because of Haar's amazing mobility as a flying unit.

Pretty much this. Without the Fujin Yumi, Takumi would be an above average archer in regards to his high skill and good strength, but nothing really all that spectacular. He's honestly not hard to take down, even with the Fujin Yumi, with similarly strong units. But he does 100% make the likes of Setsuna obsolete.

Sure, Shinon's broken... If you go and ignore that he's still hampered by his class's shortcomings, that is. Agreed that Takumi doesn't quite measure up, though.

Well, the part about Takumi being better in Heroes is true, but I have a hard time buying that Shinon isn't balanced. 

Bolded: Maybe in Revelation, but I'm kinda skeptical on Birthright - the first chapter after Takumi joins is all fliers, and needless to say, Takumi can't be everywhere at once.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Extrasolar]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Sure, Shinon's broken... If you go and ignore that he's still hampered by his class's shortcomings, that is. Agreed that Takumi doesn't quite measure up, though.

Well, the part about Takumi being better in Heroes is true, but I have a hard time buying that Shinon isn't balanced. 

Bolded: Maybe in Revelation, but I'm kinda skeptical on Birthright - the first chapter after Takumi joins is all fliers, and needless to say, Takumi can't be everywhere at once.

Hampered by his class' shortcomings? What, not being able to attack on the enemy phase? That's not really a handicap for him, imo. He just dodges everything that attacks him and kills everything on the player phase. Or do you mean the fact that he's just got average mobility like 90% of the units in the game? If he had Haar-tier mobility, he'd be even more broken.

I don't see anything balanced about Shinon as he i in Radiant Dawn. I don't know how one could argue it seriously. That's like someone trying to say that Haar isn't a game-breaking character because he's weak to thunder magic. So? It's not exactly a glaring weakness, especially in comparison to all of his strengths.

Takumi doesn't have to be killing everything on the map to be more useful than Setsuna. Other units are capable of killing Pegasus Knights as well. Setsuna's growths are kind of wonky, while Takumi is a solid unit and above average in the areas he needs to be as a sniper. There really is no reason to use Setsuna when you have Takumi. That's what I'm trying to say.
 

[Darros]

I don't think Bows belong in the weapon triangle, no, but I do think FE14 managed to make it work because of the mechanics of the game. If hidden weapons don't come back bows should definitely be pulled from the weapon triangle. If they do I'm pretty indifferent. I'd sooner pull magic from the weapon triangle than bows.

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

Hampered by his class' shortcomings? What, not being able to attack on the enemy phase? That's not really a handicap for him, imo. He just dodges everything that attacks him and kills everything on the player phase. Or do you mean the fact that he's just got average mobility like 90% of the units in the game? If he had Haar-tier mobility, he'd be even more broken.

I don't see anything balanced about Shinon as he i in Radiant Dawn. I don't know how one could argue it seriously. That's like someone trying to say that Haar isn't a game-breaking character because he's weak to thunder magic. So? It's not exactly a glaring weakness, especially in comparison to all of his strengths.

Takumi doesn't have to be killing everything on the map to be more useful than Setsuna. Other units are capable of killing Pegasus Knights as well. Setsuna's growths are kind of wonky, while Takumi is a solid unit and above average in the areas he needs to be as a sniper. There really is no reason to use Setsuna when you have Takumi. That's what I'm trying to say.
 

It's still a negative, no matter which way you slice it. That means he's practically helpless on enemy phase, and as you know, most of the action happens on enemy phase. 

Apples and oranges, bub. Not having an enemy phase is serious baggage. Why do you think archers and snipers, particularly the former, have mostly ended up as tier-induced scrappies? Also, it ain't like a weakness to thunder magic is the only baggage Haar has.

I can think of one - most Hoshidans have crap for durability. Knowing that, I'd like to minimize the chance that my units eat serious damage.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Extrasolar]

1 hour ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

It's still a negative, no matter which way you slice it. That means he's practically helpless on enemy phase, and as you know, most of the action happens on enemy phase. 

Apples and oranges, bub. Not having an enemy phase is serious baggage. Why do you think archers and snipers, particularly the former, have mostly ended up as tier-induced scrappies? Also, it ain't like a weakness to thunder magic is the only baggage Haar has.

I can think of one - most Hoshidans have crap for durability. Knowing that, I'd like to minimize the chance that my units eat serious damage.

Not really. You're making it seem a lot worse than it was. "Helpless" would imply that he's in danger of dying on the enemy phase if he's attacked. And, you know, he's just not. One drawback does not a balanced unit make, especially when it's pretty much negligible.

Archers have ended up as low tiers because most of them have terrible growths and stats. Shinon isn't one of them. He has stats comparable to a mercenary or high tier fighter, despite being an archer.

He's weak to thunder magic and his speed isn't the most amazing in the world, despite it being more than sufficient to double most enemies in the game. He still destroys most everything he touches, has his free reign of the map due to him being a flying unit, and generally makes the game very easy when he's available to use.

Sure, most of them have terrible durability. But considering most of them that do have high dodge/evasion and /or range, it's a bit moot. Squishy units have a much more difficult time on the Conquest route, where most units have garbage for evasion stats.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Shadow Mir]

47 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Not really. You're making it seem a lot worse than it was. "Helpless" would imply that he's in danger of dying on the enemy phase if he's attacked. And, you know, he's just not. One drawback does not a balanced unit make, especially when it's pretty much negligible.

Archers have ended up as low tiers because most of them have terrible growths and stats. Shinon isn't one of them. He has stats comparable to a mercenary or high tier fighter, despite being an archer.

He's weak to thunder magic and his speed isn't the most amazing in the world, despite it being more than sufficient to double most enemies in the game. He still destroys most everything he touches, has his free reign of the map due to him being a flying unit, and generally makes the game very easy when he's available to use.

Sure, most of them have terrible durability. But considering most of them that do have high dodge/evasion and /or range, it's a bit moot. Squishy units have a much more difficult time on the Conquest route, where most units have garbage for evasion stats.

Maybe to you, because you have no problem writing off being an easy target on enemy phase as though it's some minor drawback, which doesn't sit well with me for obvious reasons. 

Correct. Their inability to counter tends to not help their case, either. Now, while Shinon has good stats, most of those are rendered moot if an enemy gets up close to him, as that's damage he can't answer back, to say nothing of the other issues this causes.

Define "most enemies in the game", because from where I'm standing, about the only stuff he tends to double are generals and other slowpokes. Also, it ain't like he takes non-thunder magics well. And the real danger that thunder magic poses to him is the crit chance. 

The only squishies I can think of off the top of my head on Conquest are Charlotte, who sucks, Elise, and Nyx. Also, high evade doesn't mean as much in Fates as it did in, say, GBA because evade is less reliable in Fates for various reasons.

[Extrasolar]

30 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Maybe to you, because you have no problem writing off being an easy target on enemy phase as though it's some minor drawback, which doesn't sit well with me for obvious reasons. 

Correct. Their inability to counter tends to not help their case, either. Now, while Shinon has good stats, most of those are rendered moot if an enemy gets up close to him, as that's damage he can't answer back, to say nothing of the other issues this causes.

Define "most enemies in the game", because from where I'm standing, about the only stuff he tends to double are generals and other slowpokes. Also, it ain't like he takes non-thunder magics well. And the real danger that thunder magic poses to him is the crit chance. 

The only squishies I can think of off the top of my head on Conquest are Charlotte, who sucks, Elise, and Nyx. Also, high evade doesn't mean as much in Fates as it did in, say, GBA because evade is less reliable in Fates for various reasons.

If the mere thought of Shinon being attacked and unable to counterattack immediately means he's balanced to you, even if he takes no damage from it and instakills the enemy, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Considering his personal skill means that enemy units target him more often anyway, he's essentially a dodge tank that still deals a ton of damage to everything. If "well he has to wait a turn to do it" means he's balanced to you, then it's definitely to each their own. 'Cause that's not balanced to me.

All he needs to do, literally, is wait for player phase to one-hit kill an enemy that likely did no damage to him. I don't see what other issues it causes. If anything, it's better, because your other units (who maybe aren't as good at dodging) don't get targeted.

Most enemies in the game: The majority of lance users, mages (mage speed nerfs too strong), bishops, pretty much anything. Those that he doesn't double do no damage to him, including myrmidons, laguz cats, and the like. He's more liable to one-shot a mage before it gets a chance to do anything against him.

More squishies: Shura, Niles, Odin, Kaze, Felicia, Jakob, Elise, Selena, and all that just in the first generation. And Evade did get nerfed in comparison to the other games, but it isn't completely unreliable the way it is in Shadow Dragon. See Ryoma for that fact; his defenses are actually pretty paper, but he dodges everything and kills it anyway. Really strong unit.

[Enaluxeme]

I like how fe7x handles them, having wta on 2 range and wtd on 1 range.

Otherwise I'm neutral on having them in a separate triangle or none at all, but I absolutely think they should be apart from sword/lance/axe.

[Shadow Mir]

58 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

If the mere thought of Shinon being attacked and unable to counterattack immediately means he's balanced to you, even if he takes no damage from it and instakills the enemy, then I honestly don't know what to tell you. Considering his personal skill means that enemy units target him more often anyway, he's essentially a dodge tank that still deals a ton of damage to everything. If "well he has to wait a turn to do it" means he's balanced to you, then it's definitely to each their own. 'Cause that's not balanced to me.

All he needs to do, literally, is wait for player phase to one-hit kill an enemy that likely did no damage to him. I don't see what other issues it causes. If anything, it's better, because your other units (who maybe aren't as good at dodging) don't get targeted.

Most enemies in the game: The majority of lance users, mages (mage speed nerfs too strong), bishops, pretty much anything. Those that he doesn't double do no damage to him, including myrmidons, laguz cats, and the like. He's more liable to one-shot a mage before it gets a chance to do anything against him.

More squishies: Shura, Niles, Odin, Kaze, Felicia, Jakob, Elise, Selena, and all that just in the first generation. And Evade did get nerfed in comparison to the other games, but it isn't completely unreliable the way it is in Shadow Dragon. See Ryoma for that fact; his defenses are actually pretty paper, but he dodges everything and kills it anyway. Really strong unit.

Very funny, because you're the one who's set on downplaying or even trying to sweep his class's main disadvantage under the rug entirely. 

One-hit kill with what, a critical hit that I can't count on because this is Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn, where enemies have sky high luck stats?

I don't see him doubling Halberdiers, which are the most common lance class you see by far. Also, he tends to have issue doubling warriors and snipers, as well as... Looking at the stats, he tends to NOT double the majority of enemies. 

I was looking largely at the exclusive characters. Also, Selena's not that squishy. Going back to the evade discussion, it ain't like Ryoma is immortal, because evade just ain't something I can count on to save my bacon in Fates compared to, say, GBA, where terrain was plentiful. If the RNG gives him the middle finger, he has to take it up the ass, and it'll leave a mark.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Extrasolar]

8 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Very funny, because you're the one who's set on downplaying or even trying to sweep his class's main disadvantage under the rug entirely. 

One-hit kill with what, a critical hit that I can't count on because this is Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn, where enemies have sky high luck stats?

I don't see him doubling Halberdiers, which are the most common lance class you see by far. Also, he tends to have issue doubling warriors and snipers, as well as... Looking at the stats, he tends to NOT double the majority of enemies. 

I was looking largely at the exclusive characters. Also, Selena's not that squishy. Going back to the evade discussion, it ain't like Ryoma is immortal, because evade just ain't something I can count on to save my bacon. If the RNG gives him the middle finger, he has to take it up the ass, and it'll leave a mark.

...That's because it hardly matters to him. We must have been playing a very different game if you think Shinon not being able to attack on enemy phase holds him back from being strong. Because I don't see how it makes that much of a difference with his high stats, honestly. It boggles. I've literally never seen anyone argue that Shinon in Radiant Dawn is balanced for obvious reasons.

That's like giving someone an AK-47 when everyone else is wielding revolvers, and saying that it's balanced because he has to stop and stick a new clip in it every now and then. Like...yeah, he doesn't have literally everything in the world going for him, but what he's got going for him is more than most other people have.

One hit kill with a plain critical or Deadeye, once he's third tier. And from my experience, their luck stats ain't saving them from Shinon, or player skill activation in general. Not sure we're you're getting "sky high luck" from. Mine crits at least every third fight, if not more often than that, when he's fielded, and tends to activate Deadeye every single fight, if not every other fight.

Then your Haars must turn out worse than mine, because mine double Halberdiers, fighters and snipers pretty easily. It isn't until he's in literally the final part of the game that enemies have enough speed to possibly not get doubled by him. And again, even if he doesn't double, his strength is more often high enough to one-hit kill then anyway. Then there's the times he activates Stun and one-hit kills anyway, with his high skill.

Again. Not saying that Ryoma is immortal, but his evade is great and saves him most of the time. Anybody can get screwed by the RNG, getting hit by 3% hit and crit by a 1% hit and the like. Literally anyone. That's not much of an argument against him, considering how consistently he dodges and kills most of the time.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Jedi]

1 minute ago, Extrasolar said:

...That's because it hardly matters to him. We must have been playing a very different game if you think Shinon not being able to attack on enemy phase holds him back from being strong. Because I don't see how it makes that much of a difference with his high stats, honestly. It boggles. I've literally never seen anyone argue that Shinon in Radiant Dawn is balanced for obvious reasons.

That's like giving someone an AK-47 when everyone else is wielding revolvers, and saying that it's balanced because he has to stop and stick a new clip in it every now and then. Like...yeah, he doesn't have literally everything in the world going for him, but what he's got going for him is more than most other people have.

One hit kill with a plain critical or Deadeye, once he's third tier. And from my experience, their luck stats ain't saving them from Shinon, or player skill activation in general. Not sure we're you're getting "sky high luck" from. Mine crits at least every third fight, if not more often than that, when he's fielded, and tends to activate Deadeye every single fight, if not every other fight.

Then your Haars must turn out worse than mine, because mine double Halberdiers, fighters and snipers pretty easily. It isn't until he's in literally the final part of the game that enemies have enough speed to possibly not get doubled by him. And again, even if he doesn't double, his strength is more often high enough to one-hit kill then anyway. Then there's the times he activates Stun and one-hit kills anyway, with his high skill.

Again. Not saying that Ryoma is immortal, but his evade is great and saves him most of the time. Anybody can get screwed by the RNG, getting hit by 3% hit and crit by a 1% hit and the like. Literally anyone. That's not much of an argument against him, considering how consistently he dodges and kills most of the time.

I'm gonna agree with why you say Shinon is good, but also hold your comments back a little by stating, the main reason he isn't as good as some other characters is because he can't kill people back on enemy phase. Thats a common thing in rating if a unit is really amazing in FE is if they have both a good player phase and enemy phase or if a game is more focused on a particular phase, where  they shine most. 

New Mystery Snipers are probably overall seen as better than Shinon because they are in a more player phase focused game, RD has alot of enemy phase going on, so Shinon while really good isn't shining as much as those who have devastating 1-2 range.

Also yeah Haar blows up everything, no issues there. 

Ryoma is practically immortal though, which is why Life & Death is actually a good choice of skill on him, if he dies, its on the player not him.

[Extrasolar]

6 minutes ago, Jedi said:

I'm gonna agree with why you say Shinon is good, but also hold your comments back a little by stating, the main reason he isn't as good as some other characters is because he can't kill people back on enemy phase. Thats a common thing in rating if a unit is really amazing in FE is if they have both a good player phase and enemy phase or if a game is more focused on a particular phase, where  they shine most. 

New Mystery Snipers are probably overall seen as better than Shinon because they are in a more player phase focused game, RD has alot of enemy phase going on, so Shinon while really good isn't shining as much as those who have devastating 1-2 range.

Oh, I see. I never knew that that enemy phase thing was so important in the rating of a unit. I suppose in Radiant Dawn, enemy phase in general is less important for me just because of how strong your units are by the time you get the Greil Mercenaries, because anything that attacks them is liable to get killed on the counterattack anyway, while with Shinon it does take a big longer.

Now, the Dawn Brigade...yeah, enemy phase matters a lot.

[Jedi]

18 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

Oh, I see. I never knew that that enemy phase thing was so important in the rating of a unit. I suppose in Radiant Dawn, enemy phase in general is less important for me just because of how strong your units are by the time you get the Greil Mercenaries, because anything that attacks them is liable to get killed on the counterattack anyway, while with Shinon it does take a big longer.

Now, the Dawn Brigade...yeah, enemy phase matters a lot.

Its fine honestly, its not like the super most important thing considering everyone plays differently, its just when we usually rate units, thats something thats highly considered.

[Shadow Mir]

27 minutes ago, Extrasolar said:

...That's because it hardly matters to him. We must have been playing a very different game if you think Shinon not being able to attack on enemy phase holds him back from being strong. Because I don't see how it makes that much of a difference with his high stats, honestly. It boggles. I've literally never seen anyone argue that Shinon in Radiant Dawn is balanced for obvious reasons.

That's like giving someone an AK-47 when everyone else is wielding revolvers, and saying that it's balanced because he has to stop and stick a new clip in it every now and then. Like...yeah, he doesn't have literally everything in the world going for him, but what he's got going for him is more than most other people have.

One hit kill with a plain critical or Deadeye, once he's third tier. And from my experience, their luck stats ain't saving them from Shinon, or player skill activation in general. Not sure we're you're getting "sky high luck" from. Mine crits at least every third fight, if not more often than that, when he's fielded, and tends to activate Deadeye every single fight, if not every other fight.

Then your Haars must turn out worse than mine, because mine double Halberdiers, fighters and snipers pretty easily. It isn't until he's in literally the final part of the game that enemies have enough speed to possibly not get doubled by him. And again, even if he doesn't double, his strength is more often high enough to one-hit kill then anyway. Then there's the times he activates Stun and one-hit kills anyway, with his high skill.

Again. Not saying that Ryoma is immortal, but his evade is great and saves him most of the time. Anybody can get screwed by the RNG, getting hit by 3% hit and crit by a 1% hit and the like. Literally anyone. That's not much of an argument against him, considering how consistently he dodges and kills most of the time.

If you think I'm lying thought my teeth, then go check out the tier list thread in the RD forum. I would say more, but Jedi already beat me to the punch. 

I don't see where you're going with this comparison. Sure, he has a lot going for him, but at the same time, having no enemy phase is a major downer.

Neither of those are what I'd call reliable. Deadeye's only skill/2 before potential biorhythm effects, and crits tend to be rare unless you use a killer weapon, which tends to not be that good a weapon type in Radiant Dawn for reasons already stated, as well as lackluster Mt. 

We largely use averages in discussions, and your average Haar probably wouldn't double much of anything. 

And his "great" evade largely isn't something I'd want to rely on to stay alive, because the reliability of evade is way down in Fates (which honestly made me value good durability over good evade - evade can fail you, durability cannot).

[X-Naut]

If bows did have a place in the weapon triangle it would be squarely between lances and axes and make a Weapon Square.

[Katie]

I'd like to point out that Ryoma's immortality isn't just due to good evade, but also because he has pretty good HP(especially for Fates) and his defenses, while low, aren't like Charlotte or Hana tier bad, so those rare times when he actually gets hit, he can usually survive it.

[Extrasolar]

On 3/2/2017 at 2:41 PM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

If you think I'm lying thought my teeth, then go check out the tier list thread in the RD forum. I would say more, but Jedi already beat me to the punch. 

I don't see where you're going with this comparison. Sure, he has a lot going for him, but at the same time, having no enemy phase is a major downer.

Neither of those are what I'd call reliable. Deadeye's only skill/2 before potential biorhythm effects, and crits tend to be rare unless you use a killer weapon, which tends to not be that good a weapon type in Radiant Dawn for reasons already stated, as well as lackluster Mt. 

We largely use averages in discussions, and your average Haar probably wouldn't double much of anything. 

And his "great" evade largely isn't something I'd want to rely on to stay alive, because the reliability of evade is way down in Fates (which honestly made me value good durability over good evade - evade can fail you, durability cannot).

Well I can't speak on averages, because I'm not sure exactly what each unit's average is, but I know that Haar and Shinon were more than enough to carry the chapters that they were available in to the point of being untouchable (alongside other strong units like Ike and Gatrie). Even at their "average," they are very strong, to the point of trivializing a lot of the game, unless I'm just getting extremely RNG blessed with all of my units? Somehow, I don't think that's the case.

Deadeye actually activates pretty much every turn for me once my Shinons are third tier,regardless of the formula, so take that for what it's worth.

And yes, while Evade was nerfed in Fates, it's still good enough that you can count on it for most of your high-evade units (Ryoma, Corrin, Subaki, etc.)

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Armadillo8]

Bows being neutral worked for 13 games. I don't see a reason to change that. And Hidden Weapons should be removed entirely... I don't know who it was but his idea was terrible... Hidden Weapons are the worst thing in fates alongside Ninjas. I hope they bring back the trinity of magic. IMO it makes more sense to combine the magic types with the physical weapon types (eg: Light/Swords>Dark/Axes>Anima/Lances) than stuffing all Magic into one category. That would mean some classed would have a permanant advantage over mages which feels wrong (eg: Generals, who are already physically beefy, have an advantage over magic -> stupid). The traingle in Fates was awful while the GBA games triangles were perfect. They should bring them back.
Or just take Heroes WT, which is the best IMO.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Mariode

[Brand_Of_The_Exalt]

Before Fates I would have said no, but it was well-included mechanics-wise (it was well-placed with Axes I have to say, with WTA against Pegasi and neutral against Wyverns Riders, good against hidden weapons, etc) and felt natural very quickly, so it's yes for me.  

[Jedi]

50 minutes ago, Matthewtheman said:

I'd like to point out that Ryoma's immortality isn't just due to good evade, but also because he has pretty good HP(especially for Fates) and his defenses, while low, aren't like Charlotte or Hana tier bad, so those rare times when he actually gets hit, he can usually survive it.

Not to mention he activates Astra so much that his defense gauge in pair up should almost always be full.

[Shadow Mir]

42 minutes ago, Mariode said:

Bows being neutral worked for 13 games. I don't see a reason to change that. And Hidden Weapons should be removed entirely... I don't know who it was but his idea was terrible... Hidden Weapons are the worst thing in fates alongside Ninjas. I hope they bring back the trinity of magic. IMO it makes more sense to combine the magic types with the physical weapon types (eg: Light/Swords>Dark/Axes>Anima/Lances) than stuffing all Magic into one category. That would mean some classed would have a permanant advantage over mages which feels wrong (eg: Generals, who are already physically beefy, have an advantage over magic -> stupid). The traingle in Fates was awful while the GBA games triangles were perfect. They shoudl bring them back.

I disagree with this, especially the magic triangle stuff - it was just tacked on and didn't contribute to strategy whatsoever.

[Extrasolar]

14 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Not to mention he activates Astra so much that his defense gauge in pair up should almost always be full.

No joke. I had Ryoma get crit on the Revelation path by Sumeragi, get taken down to roughly 4 or so HP, then activate Astra, crit, and still win the fight. Too strong. Lol.

It reminds me of Stefan with the Vague Katti...I forgot to de-equip it, he Astra'd, and there went 10 uses of the blade just like that. All of the pain.

47 minutes ago, Mariode said:

Bows being neutral worked for 13 games. I don't see a reason to change that. And Hidden Weapons should be removed entirely... I don't know who it was but his idea was terrible... Hidden Weapons are the worst thing in fates alongside Ninjas. I hope they bring back the trinity of magic. IMO it makes more sense to combine the magic types with the physical weapon types (eg: Light/Swords>Dark/Axes>Anima/Lances) than stuffing all Magic into one category. That would mean some classed would have a permanant advantage over mages which feels wrong (eg: Generals, who are already physically beefy, have an advantage over magic -> stupid). The traingle in Fates was awful while the GBA games triangles were perfect. They shoudl bring them back.

I disagree. I think Hidden Weapons are an interesting mechanic; they were near-useless in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, unless you were using RD Volke and activating Lethality every five seconds, and I think Fates did a good job making them relevant. I think ninja was an interesting evolution of thief, personally, though I'll admit enemy ninjas could be pains with their poison strike and reposition. You had to get more tactical to take them out, despite their low defenses and attack, and it made the thief-analogues actually dangerous for once, whereas earlier in the series they've been little more than jokes for the most part.

I agree on the magic separation. I think Tellius did it right, with the anima triangle having a mini triangle within it as well. Made more sense.

 

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Shadow Mir]

1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

Well I can't speak on averages, because I'm not sure exactly what each unit's average is, but I know that Haar and Shinon were more than enough to carry the chapters that they were available in to the point of being untouchable (alongside other strong units like Ike and Gatrie). Even at their "average," they are very strong, to the point of trivializing a lot of the game, unless I'm just getting extremely RNG blessed with all of my units? Somehow, I don't think that's the case.

Deadeye actually activates pretty much every turn for me once my Shinons are third tier,regardless of the formula, so take that for what it's worth.

And yes, while Evade was nerfed in Fates, it's still good enough that you can count on it for most of your high-evade units (Ryoma, Corrin, Subaki, etc.)

Averages are basically average stats, used as a point of comparison because of the random nature of FE games. Like on this page:

https://serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/characters/average-stats/

This page links to the average stats of every unit in Radiant Dawn. 

I suppose you just got lucky then.

Not sure why you mention Subaki, because one of the biggest complaints I see against him is lackluster speed, which isn't a good thing when you're trying to dodgetank (nevermind the part where as stated earlier, Fates practically killed my faith in dodgetanking for various reasons, like discarding true hit, which means those hit rates you could laugh off as a certain miss in Awakening and most prior games are more likely to hit, and the part where some weapons drop your avoid).

[Extrasolar]

50 minutes ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

Averages are basically average stats, used as a point of comparison because of the random nature of FE games. Like on this page:

https://serenesforest.net/radiant-dawn/characters/average-stats/

This page links to the average stats of every unit in Radiant Dawn. 

I suppose you just got lucky then.

Not sure why you mention Subaki, because one of the biggest complaints I see against him is lackluster speed, which isn't a good thing when you're trying to dodgetank (nevermind the part where as stated earlier, Fates practically killed my faith in dodgetanking for various reasons, like discarding true hit, which means those hit rates you could laugh off as a certain miss in Awakening and most prior games are more likely to hit, and the part where some weapons drop your avoid).

Wow... All those numbers make my brain hurt just a little bit. I mean, I find it mind-boggling that I just got lucky with stats and skill activations, because for the most part my units were activating skills most if not every fight. So that's not normal...? It's been that way for me on pretty much every playthrough of RD (Normal mode - sorry, "Easy" mode - dammit, localizers.) I don't know, maybe I watched Shinon's Final Extreme video a few too many times or something.

Hard mode they still shine, but not quite as much...and then again, my first experience with Hard mode was having Edward die almost immediately on the prologue to a sudden bandit crit. Fun times. Now I wanna go jump back on Hard mode RD and see how my units measure up to these averages...and if they'll be as gamebreaking as they usually are on Normal mode.

Subaki's speed is very lackluster, but his personal assists him in his evasion. My Subakis tend to doge a good 70 % of the time, which is reliable enough for me. Considering how tanky he is in general, even if does eat a hit, he won't be hurting.

But yeah, Fates dodge RNG can get a little BS at times. I'll fully admit that.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Extrasolar

[Armadillo8]

1 hour ago, Extrasolar said:

I disagree. I think Hidden Weapons are an interesting mechanic; they were near-useless in Path of Radiance and Radiant Dawn, unless you were using RD Volke and activating Lethality every five seconds, and I think Fates did a good job making them relevant. I think ninja was an interesting evolution of thief, personally, though I'll admit enemy ninjas could be pains with their poison strike and reposition. You had to get more tactical to take them out, despite their low defenses and attack, and it made the thief-analogues actually dangerous for once, whereas earlier in the series they've been little more than jokes for the most part.

Hidden weapons on the GC and Wii were MUCH better. I found them actually useful as my thief wouldn't get screwed over by armor knights due to not being affected by the weapon traingle.
The fact that they exist in fates is not the problem, but how they exist (and in which combinations they appear). The developers randomly decided to give 1-2 range weapons stat debuffs which range up to -6. And the debuffs aren't even consistent. "Take some -6 Speed here, and -5 Def here, oh and some -4 Strenght on this one. Aaaaand don't Forget the Spy Shuriken which has 3 range and grants all of your stats -2 and def and res -5." On top of that, they are Lances. That means you either have to use inaccurate Axes to beat them or rely on your 2-range locked Bows. Usually Lances are wielded by fat armor knights with 0 Speed, slow low-level soldier, flying Units who die to everything or cavaliers with average stats. But no, Ninjas are fast.  They will double you. And you will rarely have hitrates above 80% when fighting them and combined with fates RNG and the fact that they can just counterattack from afar (or directly next to you if you have an archer) you better prepare yourself. Also, Shurikens give a +2 boost to speed... even better. So along all the debuffs, the large attack range, them being Lances and the class that wields them come the skills. Poison Strike and Grisly Wound: EVERYONE. HAS. THEM. Roughly every three or four chapters you'd have a (Master)Ninja fuckfest. A big chunk of Ninjas awaits you, all with Poison Strike and Grisly Wound! You know... People are complaining about "Fugas Funhouse", but that is WAY better than "Kazes Lunge-Party", "Kotaros Fuckfest of betrayal" (where you even have to escort a green unit though a shitload of Ninjas) and "Generic Ninjas Hallway of Death". Ninjas are simply not just Fates Version of the thief that shows up once every two chapter to loot the chests. I wouldn't be half as pissed if they game wouldn't spam them so relentlessly and if Status Immunity or Kagero's Shuriken Mastery were actually obtainable skills, but no. "But you can just put shurikenbrea--". Did I mention Ninjas have high skill? And that Shuriken have good hitrates as well? And even if they should ever miss, Grisly Wound+Poison Strike will still take away 40% of your HP, double that, and then look at that generic Master of Arms finishing your unit off. (Conquest) Chapter 8, 9, 10, 13, 14 , 15, 16, 18 and even Fugas Funhouse (Ch 20) and Hinkos Chapter (Ch 24) were great because you needed to plan. I enjoyed playing them and even geting destroyed by them!
Anways... My fingers hurt so yeah... I got quite off-topic here... and it's really biased but whatever... I feel better now.

Edited March 4, 2017 by Mariode