How the next FE can have balanced units?

[Kyne]

10 hours ago, Extrasolar said:

I looked it up and can't find any evidence that bowman commonly carried swords. Do you have links or anything for this?

https://www.quora.com/What-did-medieval-archers-wear-How-was-such-equipment-made-How-did-it-help-them-in-their-functions

https://www.quora.com/Could-a-medieval-soldier-carry-a-bow-arrows-a-sword-a-shield-all-at-the-same-time

Everyone would have a secondary weapon. Swords and the like were more expensive than axes but any career soldier could afford one quite easily. Maybe not a super fancy, mega high-end, laser-firing greatsword of the lich king, but a nice, well made, functionally balanced sword. They would also carry bucklers.

[Extrasolar]

4 hours ago, Kyne said:

https://www.quora.com/What-did-medieval-archers-wear-How-was-such-equipment-made-How-did-it-help-them-in-their-functions

https://www.quora.com/Could-a-medieval-soldier-carry-a-bow-arrows-a-sword-a-shield-all-at-the-same-time

Everyone would have a secondary weapon. Swords and the like were more expensive than axes but any career soldier could afford one quite easily. Maybe not a super fancy, mega high-end, laser-firing greatsword of the lich king, but a nice, well made, functionally balanced sword. They would also carry bucklers.

Ah, interesting, never knew about that. So they tended to carry daggers or small axes rather than than swords, according to these sources. I guess incorporating weak physical weapons for archers in melee would make sense, and add a bit more realism.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I honestly think Radiant Dawn had the right idea with (pre-Double Bow) Marksman: archers are known for range, so give 'em 2-3 (with longbows having 2-4 or 2-5 or something). They should easily be able to outrange javelins and hand axes in real life That would actually excuse the mediocre offensive stats they typically have (outside Fates and RD).

I do like them missing 1 range with their common weapons; it's a neat niche. Though giving them a 1-range backup, be it some sort of crossbow or E rank swords, etc., would be nice.

[Peanut Brudda]

To switch to something a little bit different than archers :

I like knights (when talking about knights I also include generals), I really love knights. I think fates used them pretty well as ennemies by making them really bulky, not just a bit more than other units. However, I think they always fall short on your side.

I don't mind them being slow, i mean ok they got a massive armor so can't go fast that's logic. But in that case take your idea to the end and make them really bulky. Make them real walls on your side (they still got to be beatable if you act stupidly of course), and make theme genuinly scary on the ennemy side.

Thus i think they should be strenghtened on the defense and res plan. Or, if not and skills are to come back, implement some skills that really emphasize on protecting others.

I thought of two examples : One could be that they should be harder to get through, like they make their adjacent tiles 2 or 3 times more movement consuming. Their shield could also come in use with an inate great shield, replacing their avoid, based on their skill and defense (factorised of course to balance).

[NekoKnight]

This thread is all over the place. People talking about realism in games when the topic is character balance. lol

Anyway, to answer the OP's question, I think each unit and class should have a niche role. Inevitably some units and classes are going to better, but they should do their best to give everything a purpose. As for knights/archers, I like the changes Fates made to them. Bows have high might, making up for their lack of range 1 countering and Wary Fighter makes armors not easy pickings for fast, hard hitting classes.

[Folt]

Give fliers a reduction in movement range perhaps?

Something like having one or two Move less than Paladins: They'd still be pretty mobile given that their movement range would still carry no penalties when compared to foot units.

[Interdimensional Observer]

On 3/4/2017 at 1:15 PM, Dark Holy Elf said:

I honestly think Radiant Dawn had the right idea with (pre-Double Bow) Marksman: archers are known for range, so give 'em 2-3 (with longbows having 2-4 or 2-5 or something). They should easily be able to outrange javelins and hand axes in real life That would actually excuse the mediocre offensive stats they typically have (outside Fates and RD).

If 2-3 range bows were to be standardized, I want range 1-2 heal staffs standardized. Otherwise, I definitely have to resort to vulneraries at chokepoints. Also, no giving standard 2-3 range to horseback bow users for the sake of making archers stand out.

Berwick Saga (never played it myself) lets one of its archers attack from range 3, albeit at -15 hit and only if the unit doesn't move. I bring BS up more because it also features a skill called Shooter. Instead of attacking (and you can't move beforehand either- BS seems to like forcing you to choose between moving and attacking), it allows the unit to attack the first enemy to enter its range on the enemy phase, and if the archer hits, the enemy's movement is halted if it planned to continue moving. A very defensive skill that is probably better for the enemy's use yes, but still a possible way of making archers unique. It could also give them a limited enemy phase of allowing them to bait 1 foe per turn.

[CR_astrum]

Fates tried to balance everything the wrong way by nerfing the strong stuff rather than buffing the weak stuff. Primarily, instead of making archers better, they made ranged weapons a lot worse. Also, instead of buffing res, they made mages a lot weaker. Hopefully they balance by making weak stuff better rather than strong stuff weaker.

Edit: I do feel like making certain characters have niche/specific roles might help but it could make the game not as fun.

Edited March 29, 2017 by Trueblade of Darkness

[Shadow Mir]

On March 1, 2017 at 5:45 AM, Kyne said:

I think Fates went about fixing archers the wrong way (lol, look we're good against throwing knives and shuriken even though those are basically the most worthless weapon in the history of humanity. Yeah no, they're worthless but let's make them lower stats for some fucking reason). Giving them the ability to attack in melee (AAAAAAAA SHORT BOW; POINTBLANK WHYYYYY) among other things made them decent but I still don't think they are well implemented.

Erm, I'm gonna have to call bullshit here - for one, if you want a worthless weapon, go look at knives in Path of Radiance or Radiant Dawn, where knives had practically nothing going for them. At least the ability to debuff in Fates made them relevant. Second, Point Blank is overhyped - just how many bow users in Fates could be up on the frontlines without worry of being ground into a fine paste? Also, the player only gets access to three bows that can counter up close, with one of them being a magic weapon, and thus very limited in who can use it well, and the other two are weak, one pathetically so. Oh, and all three of those bows lower your avoid, making it more likely that you get hit.

WRT all the stuff about ninjas and hidden weapons: I think I have to call bullshit there too. Other than their debuff ability, I don't see hidden weapons as OP, not when the strongest one that doesn't hurt you or debuff you is only 7 Mt, in addition to making it such that you need 8 more speed over your opponent to double (also, Saizo and Kagero tend to not double that much, particularly the former).

On March 29, 2017 at 8:48 AM, CR_astrum said:

Fates tried to balance everything the wrong way by nerfing the strong stuff rather than buffing the weak stuff. Primarily, instead of making archers better, they made ranged weapons a lot worse. Also, instead of buffing res, they made mages a lot weaker. Hopefully they balance by making weak stuff better rather than strong stuff weaker.

Edit: I do feel like making certain characters have niche/specific roles might help but it could make the game not as fun.

I'd say they did both - bows got buffed and they replaced the useless Prescience with a skill that allowed them to do extra damage on offense. Also, I doubt that any buffs bows got would make them relevant if hand axes and javelins weren't nerfed.

Edited April 7, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Salamud]

Let all units have mounts. Mounts make everybody better.

[Anomalocaris]

So one contributor to brokenness is how you can stack skills from different classes, so things like Replicate, Rend Heaven, or Vengeance get slapped onto every unit.

I was thinking maybe make about half the skills be exclusive to the class that learns it.

So maybe something like this:

Base classes

• Level 1 Skill: Generic skill that can be used in any class. Simple skills such as the minor stat boosts.
• Level 10 Skill: Skill specific to this class and its promotions. Perhaps skills such as Vantage, Shelter, and Lunge.

Promoted classes

• Level 5 Skill: Generic skill that can be used in any class. Rally and ___faire skills, perhaps.
• Level 15 Skill: Skill specific to this class. Weird things with unique mechanics like Replicate and Galeforce, and proc skills like Luna, Sol, Vengeance, and Rend Heaven.

That way there's still benefits to going through a classline, since you can keep some of the simpler skills, but the really crazy shit requires you stay in that class and therefore you can't stack them all on top of each other.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Anomalocaris said:

So one contributor to brokenness is how you can stack skills from different classes, so things like Replicate, Rend Heaven, or Vengeance get slapped onto every unit.

I was thinking maybe make about half the skills be exclusive to the class that learns it.

So maybe something like this:

Base classes

• Level 1 Skill: Generic skill that can be used in any class. Simple skills such as the minor stat boosts.
• Level 10 Skill: Skill specific to this class and its promotions. Perhaps skills such as Vantage, Shelter, and Lunge.

Promoted classes

• Level 5 Skill: Generic skill that can be used in any class. Rally and ___faire skills, perhaps.
• Level 15 Skill: Skill specific to this class. Weird things with unique mechanics like Replicate and Galeforce, and proc skills like Luna, Sol, Vengeance, and Rend Heaven.

That way there's still benefits to going through a classline, since you can keep some of the simpler skills, but the really crazy shit requires you stay in that class and therefore you can't stack them all on top of each other.

I'm gonna hafta call bullshit here - if anything, I'd imagine it'd be even more broken. I mean, faires at level 5? Seriously???

Edited April 9, 2017 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Anomalocaris]

2 hours ago, Levant Mir Celestia said:

I'm gonna hafta call bullshit here - if anything, I'd imagine it'd be even more broken. I mean, faires at level 5? Seriously???

Yeah, that's probably a bit powerful.

____faires are probably not a good idea. But in general, I was thinking "generic" skills would be at 5, and "unique" skills would be at 15.

[Shadow Mir]

3 hours ago, Anomalocaris said:

Yeah, that's probably a bit powerful.

____faires are probably not a good idea. But in general, I was thinking "generic" skills would be at 5, and "unique" skills would be at 15.

The problem is, your idea is, how you say, a convoluted clusterfuck with a hint of jet fuel and the aftertaste of burning truck tires.

[Anomalocaris]

On 4/9/2017 at 4:34 AM, Levant Mir Celestia said:

The problem is, your idea is, how you say, a convoluted clusterfuck with a hint of jet fuel and the aftertaste of burning truck tires.

Fair enough.

[henrymidfields]

The attack stance was a really good thing for Mozu, actually, because unlike Donnel, or even worse, Sophia from FE6, I could reliably have Mozu participate in kills as long as a stronger ally unit attack-stanced her.

A lot of the classes in Fates Conquest seemed to work really well for me, because there always seemed to be something of use. Apart from the lack of 2RNG, the general lack of HP, and the nerfed Luck stat in regards to Critical Avoid calculation, which I think were rather unnecessary, I think the skill sets and stat distributions were handled well. Having said that:

• I really miss the days when Swordmasters and Berserkers had the 30% critical boost from FE6 - though that would make Arthur (and possibly others from my LP) unusable without some buffs to his Luck stat.
• I think we can do more with enemies holding effective weapons to offset generally stronger classes. It does not have to be every enemy unit and her/his dog, but we should have 1 in every 3-5 units that have Wyrmslayers/Horseslayers to keep players from constantly relying on their Wyverns and Cavaliers in later chapters. And maybe Armorslayers if we are going to have strong, reliable, and useful armour units like my Effie is in my LP.
• On the other hand, the Fili Shield should make a return to allow for allied Falcon Knights to join the fray - as generally more frail units, but ones that do have a means to avoid their only effective weapon.

[SavageVolug]

I would say a good way to balance units would be for every class tier there's a minimum requirement for the stats let's use for example the cavalier line because I like cavaliers along with with fighters and mercenaries but that's another story. Level 1 Cavaliers have for 20 HP 10 Str 0 Magic (magic is not needed for a cavalier unless you have weapons that deal damage based on magic stat which in that case would change the ball game entirely) 8 Skill 10 Sp (they're on a horse they are going to be fast) 9 Def 5 Luck 5 Res

Now Paladins on the other hand have at least 40 HP, 30 Str, Magic 0 28 Skill 30 Sp 29 Def Luck 15 15 Res. Now in addition to this there is of course individual growth rates, for example while both Dorcas and Bartre are fighters they are prone to different strengths for one thing Bartre tends to have better speed than Dorcas. But if you have something like this I think it can help balance out the units. In regards to undertrained units like Donnel I would rather Nintendo reuse the trainee idea from Sacred Stones instead of the villager idea, you could really expand the trainee to cover every combat based unit such as archer, or mercenary ect. I'm not going to go through what I think every class should have at the bare minimum but this should give you an idea of what I'm thinking of.